ILX Parenting 5: I'm a big kid now

We are entering our third trimester and with each day I realize I know almost nothing about babies. Today We saw Anna Maria on the sonogram screen and my heart sank. She's pretty and sucks her thumb. Our doctor who might deliver our baby is nice, but maybe, we won't go with the hospital. So many questions and time keeps passing. Where are all of the ilx parents to help guide me through...

I have been reading a Dr Sears book as if it were a text book and "studying up". Whenever I wanted a new pet I'd read all the books I could before I went out and got one so it would seem I am preparing for the ultimate pet. I have very little baby experience.

Trying to put a birthing plan together is a bit challenging. I loathe hospitals, I have only been there for surgeries and entering them always makes me want to puke. I always had to have some sort of Valium like pill to avoid a serious freak out. I don't want to have to be given any sort of drug before I give birth. I do not want to give birth in a hospital if I can help it.

The alternatives in this location though are either drive two hours away to a birthing center or get a birthing pool and have a local mid-wife deliver. The town we are in doesn't have an obgyn or is even set up to deal with any sort of emergency involving delivery or newborns so that is the dilemma.

there's a whole board for this stuff guys

fwiw, in retrospect, the vast majority of books i read about childbirth/child-raising have proven to be completely useless. I suspect their sole function is simply to mollify the anxieties of new parents.

http://ilxor.com/ILX/NewAnswersControllerServlet?boardid=207147393

Moving this thread to ILP if that's ok with everyone.

*tera i imagine your local midwife will know what the options are if you need to be moved to the hospital?

Ask about motel policy on birthing pools.

Tracer-Plan on chatting with the mid-wife tomorrow about all concerns.Three birthing centers two hours away...

Laurel-I mentioned a motel but in these small towns...my husband and I laughed at what could possibly happen if housekeeping entered during the birth or after before we got things cleaned up. It would make front page news in the papers: Bloody Baby Pool Found in Motel Room

That's what those little Do Not Disturb door handle things are for!

"We are entering our third trimester and with each day I realize I know almost nothing about babies."

I'm pretty much convinced most of the people who have had babies and who write books about babies know nothing about babies so join the club!

the funniest thing to me about the whole baby-book industry is when you realize how made-up it is. people have been having babies/raising children for thousands of years, and yet somehow every 5 years there's a NEW/BEST way to do it. yeah right.

We got our first package of Bummies today. Has anyone used natural diapers? I can't imagine using disposables but everyone I've told that we're using cloth thinks I'm crazy and that it won't last.

we used disposables with kids #1 & 2 & cloth with kid #3. cloth wasn't a big deal! granted we weren't particularly mobile at that point, mostly at or in orbit around home, but we just did a lot of laundry.

I used cloth with wool soakers through 2 kids (approx. 5 years total). It was fine. Using the occasional disposable wasn't a deal breaker and saved my sanity a few times. The worst thing was when kid #1 pried the diaper pail lid apart and tried to eat the deodorizing disc. Borax is your friend, btw - you can usually find it at the hardware store.

We are planning to buy those wool diaper holders, Kissa's is the brand T. wants. They are neat looking too. How many diapers do you need in order to not feel overrun, I mean where you can have as many clean as ones you are cleaning? How much does baby go?

Maybe 5 dozen and a dozen covers? How much they go varies so so much. And cloth diapers are great as burp towels, plus handy.

We tried cloth and it drove us crazy. We switched to disposable within a couple of weeks.

Hopefully we can stick to it.

The only baby diapering experience I have had was back in 1979 at the age of 8 when my sister was born. It was my job to take care of the diaper pail and empty it, wash diapers etc... I was so pissed and threw a fit when my mom gave me that job but did it anyway and it turned out to be no big deal. Never forgot the smell of a dirty diaper though and I can sniff them out anywhere.

Ever noticed how the kids in "training nappies" are wayy too young in the adverts?

we used a cloth diaper service for quite awhile, it was no problem. used disposables when out and about/on trips though cuz they can be a pain to change at, say, the playground

Oh shit I just put my 5 y/o's pretty parka in the dryer and the silky fake fur fringe has like, melted into clumpy black felt :( she'll be so sad.

just tell her: "Shit happens, honey. Shit happens."

when i touch anyone else's laundry it def does--

5 dozen???? we use maybe 10 total, which seems plenty. yes we do the laundry almost every day. thirsties brand wraps are the best, fuiud

by the way, WE DON'T OWN A DRYER. no one is harder than us.

Any ILPers have thoughts on this?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204740904577196931457473816.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read

When American families visited our home, the parents usually spent much of the visit refereeing their kids' spats, helping their toddlers do laps around the kitchen island, or getting down on the floor to build Lego villages. When French friends visited, by contrast, the grownups had coffee and the children played happily by themselves.

stopped reading. building lego villages is fun!

the article seems right to me, & accords with our "model of parenting" (aside from sleep "training", uggh what a horrible word). We lived in Paris a couple of years ago with our three kids < 10 & experienced daily this difference in behaviors, though a bit different as we lived in an immigrant-heavy suburb so the behaviors were shifted with a few other norms.

fuckin hate it when I spent time with other parents w/ the kids all together & the parents can't stop "dealing" with kid bullshit

didn't read most of it because that shit pisses me off but they really REALLY underplay this bit:

Of course, the French have all kinds of public services that help to make having kids more appealing and less stressful. Parents don't have to pay for preschool, worry about health insurance or save for college. Many get monthly cash allotments—wired directly into their bank accounts—just for having kids.

I hung out w someone's kid last night. He's adorable and smart and appealing, but he has to have something--a person to pay attention to him, or a video game, or something--to engage him all the time.

I've been thinking about this kind of parenting stuff b/c my sister is firm w my nephew, too, and my family kind of gets on her for it, but it WORKS.

the weirdest thing to me is when people act like there's one right way to parent.

(re: the article, not the comments on this thread)

Well, there are probably "better" ways to parent in order to achieve a desired outcome, if that outcome is "being able to visit with an adult for 30 minutes in the company of your child."

My Italian-Australian friend commented on this many years ago, years before she had kids of her own, that her parents acted like their 3 offspring were additions to an adult household, not the center of everyone's world. It seemed intriguing and potentially very effective to me at the time; she definitely thought it had been a good choice for her own family.

I tend to think / worry / etc. that parents who act like their offspring are "the center of everyone's world" don't really know how to enjoy adult company, or else have been accustomed to adult company that's not worth enjoying.

there are probably "better" ways to parent in order to achieve a desired outcome

this is basically saying the same thing i said? different parents are going to have different desired outcomes, which is ok. what's weird is acting like there's one desired outcome.

ME: "Turn off the TV and go use the bathroom NOW!"
…
Later,

BEEPS: "You hurt my feelings."
ME: "Well you keep peeing in your pants. Looks like we're even."

Feel like I've got it down until this morning when I take her to her pre-K classroom. She wants me to unbutton her coat and I instinctively go down on a knee to do so. Her teacher stops and says to her, "No, you open your coat. Show your daddy what you do when he's not around."

And I'm thinking the whole time, that little sneak.

let's be clear here, this article's main argument hinges on which style of parenting for the PARENT, not which style of parenting is better for the child.

that being said duh yes be firm with your child, teach them to entertain themselves, my daughter generally has no problem drawing/coloring/playing legos/pretending to cook/whatever for a little while while adults do something else

argh "is better for the PARENT"

And LOL at the headline and cover art for that WSJ story H2 posted.

interesting article, though obv filled w/ generalizations. I'm sure not every french parent is like that. but we are struggling w/ our 2 1/2 year old being able to do *anything* on her own. if she's off playing by herself for like 2 minutes, we're amazed and excited. just not very independent at all. if she's playing with something, she wants us to be playing with it too. if we don't go play with her, she wants us to hold her.

she's got a weird situation, though -- my wife stays at home with her and I work at home 90% of the time now. so we're *always* around. i can't really blame her for thinking we should just be there at all times. but the "no" thing is useful, we're trying to be more tough about not just dropping everything for the smallest thing she wants.

Yeah I think for me the trick would be feeling tender and affectionate toward my kid/s and yet saying "No" lovingly and not in irritation at all. You say it because you believe hearing "No" and being self-entertaining and uh more patient (although I don't know if I think it's that simple) is beneficial for your kid, not because they're getting on Mommy's nerves and she's trying not to open the bottle of wine until at least 4pm.

haha my 3-y-o is playing by himself more, talking to his toys, etc but virtually every time i listen in he's bossing them around parent-style! "now YOU sit THERE. for FIVE MINUTES. STOP IT." :/

basically between that WSJ article and the "tiger mother" book it seems clear that if you really want to coin it, write a big book telling parents they should be more selfish about their time and less sensitive toward their children

lol yeah. don't treat your kids like kids! you will ruin their childhood!

the funniest thing to me about the whole history of parenting-how-to guides is that overall, at any given point in time, large chunks of the populace have been convinced that children are being raised incorrectly.

like, it doesn't matter what you do, in 10 years it will have been the absolute wrong thing

tbh my sister-in-law is married to a french guy and they just had a baby and hearing her talk (second-hand from my wife) about their child-rearing philosophy is pretty depressing, it's very 1950s USA patriarchy where the SIL is constantly worried about "disturbing" her husband with the baby (who's like 6 months old) crying, etc., so i have trouble romanticizing the french parenting philosophy. but some of that is probably just their relationship, he's kind of a creep in general.

Why didn't French children throw food?

xp That sounds kind of awful. :(

I guess one reason the "french parenting" article appealed to me in part was that I feel like I see a lot of parents around Brooklyn who act a little too much like kids around their kids, like as though they see their primary role as being especially manic and entertaining playmates. I still think a parent probably ought to be modeling aspirational behaviors for their kids, although obviously parents should also have fun with their kids and be silly sometimes. I get the impression sometimes that the parents I'm talking about are not only confusing their kids but getting them kind of hyped up and anxious.

At the same time, the image the article projects onto French parents seems awfully conveniently suited to the parent who wants to avoid being bothered too much by this whole parenting thing.

I have a suspicion that you become the kind of parent you can handle being. I know it makes you be better than you are, every day that you can, because that's the kind of love you feel for yr children, but I also know my brain breaks down from too much noise and chaos and interruption--I have so much sympathy for my dad, in my own adulthood.

I get the impression sometimes that the parents I'm talking about are not only confusing their kids but getting them kind of hyped up and anxious.

Yes, I've seen this, saw it last night from the other guests, too. I get mad when people don't take children seriously and answer them seriously--that 4-yo isn't on this earth to be a joke for you, you know. If you want him to be polite and learn about social interaction, you should maybe stop LAUGHING AT HIM.

"While some American toddlers are getting Mandarin tutors and preliteracy training, French kids are—by design—toddling around by themselves."

This doesn't seem particularly middle-class to me...

it's the wall street journal

My daughter has a Mandarin tutor:

http://www.nihao-kailan.com/img/kailan.gif

I agree with the lack of "no"-ing and the inability of parents to allow children their own space. I don't know how peculiarly American or middle-class they are, but I've definitely observed both pretty frequently even in my short parenting career.

this article is my first exposure to the term "kindergarchy". not sure what it means, but it makes me feel a little sick to my stomach.

literally = rule by children

not sure how i feel about german/greek linguistic mashups.

My mother taught us table manners and how to behave through play. We'd have tea parties and teddy bear dinners, that is how I learned how to behave at the table.

We were never allowed to eat all day or when we wanted to. I think we were actually too poor for that. But after a nap we did get a bowl of pudding or ice cream and so we looked forward to nap time, which was also story time then would wake up to a treat and Mighty Mouse. My mom never carried snacks in her purse.

My paternal grandmother definitely had the whole polite but firm thing going on. At my grandmother's house we wouldn't dare open her fridge or kitchen pantry, would ask to turn her television on and would never wander through the house or ask for snacks. But we loved going there, we had fun. At my maternal grandmother's house, we were completely wild, made anything we wanted in her kitchen, went through her drawers and closets, pulled out boxes of personal belongings...she never said no.

I am interested in reading the book , see how it compares to Dr Sears and attachment parenting.

guh the snack thing. sylvie just went through a phase where she said i'mmmmmm hunnnnnnngry every 10 seconds. part of it was just an attention-getting strategy, but i think she was also going through a growth spurt at the time. really difficult to deny her food when she asks for it constantly, though we tried to have a more rigid schedule for snacks. more than one a day, though, that's for sure.

reading this right now

it's interesting, some good stuff. also some entertainingly dated stuff (late 70s/early 80s depictions of moms with handkerchiefs tied around their heads, casual allusions to hitting children, etc.)

Met with a mid-wife on Monday at a birthing center and loved the facility. She was also very warm and knowledgeable so we decided to go with a water birth at this center.

Yesterday we saw the ob at my scheduled appt and ugh...ended up telling the billing agent we were going with the midwife. I think we even said we were thinking of going with a midwife and this might be our last visit.

When the ob came in he just measured me but didn't follow up on the tests done at my last visit nor was a question I had phoned in between the last visit and yesterday's visit addressed. He asked if I had any problems and I mentioned some pain and he suggested a support belt. Weird since at the last visit I was wearing one and he condescendingly said they just really didn't offer much help or relief but to go ahead and use it if I thought it was doing any good. I then asked if the measurement was normal, if "everything" was normal referring to the urine test, blood pressure and weight taken. He just said yes. I felt I wasn't specific enough.

I don't attribute his flakiness towards us to leaving although I guess it could have been. The office has been really unfocused as has the doctor since day one. So then he said he had heard that we were transferring and we said we were transferring to a midwife. Awkward pause and stares followed then the visit was quickly over after that.

guy sounds like a tool

a friend lent me that book Shakey but i couldn't make it past the first few pages; the author sounds like she had problems we don't really have, and her advice on how to overcome those problems is very much common sense. though it can sometimes be helpful to be reminded what common sense actually is - sometimes you can outthink yourself.

My plan is definitely to apply the "go with your instincts" method of parenting, because I can pretty much never get through more than a few pages of a parenting book.

Kids are all different anyway -- I was naturally quiet and slow-moving, my brother was a perpetual motion machine. I was hold-it-in, he was let-it-out. I probably needed different parenting than he did.

the author sounds like she had problems we don't really have, and her advice on how to overcome those problems is very much common sense

yeah I don't really disagree with this. some of the examples given of things parents might say ("close the door! how can you be so stupid!") are like so over-the-top wrong - just stuff I would never say - lend the book a strange anthropological appeal. like jeez were these really common parenting tactics in the 70s, to constantly emotionally and physically abuse your child...?

for example:

I was so gung ho to get his new approach going in my family that I came home from a meeting, tripped over my daughter's skates in the hall, and sweetly told her, "Skates belong in the closet." I thought I was wonderful. When she looked up at me blankly, and then went back to reading her book, I hit her.

I've since learned two things...

uh, okay

hahaha WHAT

haha, no that's not funny, haha

how about

I was so gung ho to get his new approach going in my family that I came home from a meeting, tripped over my daughter's skates in the hall, and hit her. When she looked up at me blankly, and then went back to reading her book, I sweetly told her, "Skates belong in the closet." I thought I was wonderful.

tbf the book does have some helpful/common-sense things behind it - like, "don't insult your child", "acknowledge their feelings/help them articulate them" etc.

btw y'all i'm a dad now. her name is keren

congratulations, that is wonderful news! <3

congrats!

Congratulations!

congratulations! that is a nice name.

That's a beautiful name! Congrats!

We had our 1st real appointment with the midwife today and I really like her. She felt T's belly and told us how the baby is positioned and that was nice to know. Something the previous doctor couldn't tell us.

baby bonding hormones = best drug ever btw

Ya know for the last few months I've had this depression repellant, it's like nothing gets me down. I guess it's baby bonding hormones, even though she's isn't here, I feel connected to her. I like singing to her.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love being a dad but I sure will be happy if/when little man learns how to sleep longer than 3 hours at a stretch

also congrats to Hurting 2!

hurting 3

Haha perfect! Congrats and OTM re baby bonding <3<3

So today was day 4 of her life, and it feels like so much was compressed into this short time. She's already very different than her first day - much more alert and interested in the world, calmer, less prone to frustration. We had a (probably typical) scare with feeding because she seemed to be eating all the time and still hungry and losing weight, but you just have to keep at it for a few days and the milk comes. Then today all of the sudden she had one of those massive diaper blowouts, and since that point she has been the most serene little thing.

I've actually been able to relax for the first time since her birth tonight - she is actually sleeping soundly for full 1-2 hour stretches and letting mom get some sleep. I'm doing my best to be calm with her and to give her a sense of reassurance - in my mind that seems more important than getting the exact right number of wet diapers or feeds or whatever, as long as the baby seems ok, and believe me if you are paying attention to the baby you will have instincts about this (e.g. when she was not getting enough to eat her mom knew right away, and pretty soon it became clear to me too).

She slept on my chest this evening while we watched the Knicks lose. BTW the skin-to-skin thing really is awesome, both for mom and for dad.

Congrats, hurting!

yeah, it is awesome to hear you talk about this!

Congrats Hurting!

Aw, how sweet. Congratulations Hurting.

congratulations

Awwww Hurting, enjoyed reading your post :)

I'm doing my best to be calm with her and to give her a sense of reassurance - in my mind that seems more important than getting the exact right number of wet diapers or feeds or whatever, as long as the baby seems ok, and believe me if you are paying attention to the baby you will have instincts about this

hurting i think if youre already at this point on day 4 you're going to make a fine parent.

ha but what about on day 6? reached a bit of a crisis bc I kept screwing things up from absent minded ness and exhaustion -- f'ed up with the carseat in a way not worth explaining in detail, forgot the baby's clothes in the washer downstairs, put a diaper on wrong, got the car towed etc. started to lose confidence, but I guess like with anything you have to fake the confidence you don't have.

firsts today: book ("look look"), music (Elizabeth Cotten), walk in the park

don't sweat it, sounds like you're doing fine to me, congrats!

Hahaha in 15 years she is going to be so sick of hearing about that time that you got the car towed b/c of sleeplessness, and you're going to think it's hilarious and miss these days like crazy. I promise.

It's totally okay.

ok it is worth explaining. my baby came early and I hadn't installed the carseat. the night before discharge I had to rush home to install, but I left the hospital p late bc mrs h had a c and needed support. in my delirium I became convinced that the carseat could not be properly installed bc of the kind of seatbelt we have. we got her mom ato drive u.s home instead and a few days later I had an auto shop. jerryrig a way to permanently install the base, like a makeshift Latch system. then I got home and realized nothing was wrong with the seatbelts at all. yes, she will be hearing for years about her easily confused father.

sorry for typos, iPad typing w baby on stomach

car seats are always a bit of a hassle,worst is when they get sick on it/have an accident and you have to remove it, strip the cover, wash it and then figure out how to secure it again

Hurting I think your effort goes much further than you know. At least that's what I'm counting on when we have our baby. lately I've been feeling overwhelmed with how soon our delivery date is and how much T. is doing to prepare and how little I am doing. T. is making list and reading essays and books. I feel like I should be making list and reading books too. I read so much about being healthy during pregnancy and taking care of T. while she's with child. But I still don't know how to fold a diaper or how to burp her. I haven't even took the car seat out of the box to figure it out yet! I feel like I need to get on the ball. My eyes tear up writing this and I can only hope instinct will help me.

you sound like me dawg. there's the cliche about men becoming fathers when they see the baby. it's because things are so much more palpable for her during pregnancy being that she's already carrying the baby. not that all dads to be are like us but a lot certainly are. you're probably putting things off because it's hard to face the change that's coming. but eventually you will just face it because you'll have to.

I don't think we know exactly what is in store for us. I read the books but it is all theoretical. I do not know what it will be like at all, I haven't a clue what the impact of this tiny person will be on our lives. It is overwhelming and I go back and forth between wanting another six months and just wanting her to be here already. It changes minute to minute.

god i am so dumb when it comes to car seats, even 2 1/2 years later.
and yeah, tera/jacob, in my experience, no matter how much planning/reading/thinking you do, it's impossible to imagine how you'll feel about this little kid before he/she pops out. at least for me, it was pretty abstract until the actual birth. but you'll love him/her, don't worry.

btw y'all i'm a dad now. her name is keren

― simulation and similac (Hurting 2), Monday, February 20, 2012 9:43 PM (3 days ago)

sometimes it's abstract for a while after birth too, don't necessarily expect things to click on day one but they will eventually

sometimes it's abstract for a while after birth too, don't necessarily expect things to click on day one by the time they're five, but they will eventually

Normally, we are a happy little family, but our daily biggest argument occurs every morning regarding who gets to press the button that opens the garage door.

lol. tbh i remember being suuuuper jealous of friends who had automatic garage door openers.

I was jealous of people who had garages!

We had "carports".

We have what is classified on assessment documents as a "lean-to". This is what happens when you buy a home from someone who essentially built it themselves. You have to throw a bolt to open it.

Braved the elements today and went to our first Williamsburg parent meetup. The whole thing is kind of surreal -- like being in a parallel universe Williamsburg. One woman told us how we should look into something called a "Tibetan Nanny," saying it like it was a brand of childcare rather than a nationality and occupation. (fwiw H is staying home for now anyway).

I find the proportion of parents I know with nannies kind of unsettling. I didn't know anyone - ANYONE - that had a nanny growing up. I dunno what this says about our economy (everyone has to work and nobody can afford to stay home and raise their kids?)

When I lived in Austin and was on my neighborhood list I was surprised at how many households employed full time live-in nannies. I was pretty shocked, actually. This was not exactly a posh area and I always thought those were the households that had nannies (Nanny Fine). The area had a ton of daycare centers, nurseries and Montessori schools.

What do nannies do exactly? Because a majority of my neighbors worked at home or were stay at home mothers so I just didn't understand the need for live-in nannies as opposed to an hourly caretaker. Then again, I didn't have facts or stats, just judging from posts on the hood list.

I don't think all these people are necessarily talking about live-in nannies so much as daytime nannies. But the nanny basically plays mom while mom is at work.

I get daytime nannies.

Still, we decided that (1) having mom at home was way more important than money, and (2) the additional money left over from her salary after paying for expensive daycare probably wouldn't make it worth while anyway. I do understand that it's pretty hard to make it in NYC on one income, even a good one, but at the same time I think there's a certain amount of attachment to lifestyle, to living in the right neighborhood, etc.

So does anyone have any thoughts on sleep/feeding/diaper routines in the newborn days? I feel like we're running to some problems. Typical patterns go like this:

Variation 1: Keren falls asleep on dad - dad eventually decides to put her down in the cosleeper so he doesn't roll over on her - Keren immediately starts to wake up and asks for food

Variation 2: Keren feeds - Keren falls asleep next to mom - Keren poops - diaper change gets Keren extremely upset - Keren wants to immediately feed again, possibly because she's upset - Keren poops again - Keren gets changed again - Keren is awake

Variation 3: Keren feeds - Dad puts down Keren in crib - Keren wants to feed again - Keren feeds - Dad puts down Keren in crib - Keren wants to feed again - Keren feeds - Keren falls asleep on mom - now what?

i've no answers to feeding & pooping but i think i missed keren's nativity? anyway, congrats, hurtings <3

thanks!

Hurting:It is always a sacrifice to have a stay at home parent these days. It is the only way I'd have a child though. I worked at a daycare that operated under the guise of a Montessori school. There was very little about it that was really Montessori and all the children were unhappy. I just didn't like what I saw and it wasn't considered a bad place at all, had a waiting list, good ratings. Maybe I was too sensitive. I had a stay at home mom for six years and have so many lovely memories and that is what I want for my little girl.

What do nannies do exactly? Because a majority of my neighbors worked at home or were stay at home mothers so I just didn't understand the need for live-in nannies as opposed to an hourly caretaker.

live in nannies are practically free, as you're already giving them a place to live. so it's actually much cheaper than an hourly childminder (who can cost like $10 an hour). that said, you have to have a house big enough to have a spare bedroom (and probably second bathroom) and not mind the fact that they're living with you, both of which seem completely unimaginable to me.

Hurting, needing food all the time is just part of being a newborn. their bellies are like the size of walnuts. after a week or two you'll probably be able to differentiate between "i'm grumpy" and "i'm hungry" and "there is a massive fart bubble moving through my gastrointestinal system" and then you can start getting her used to the idea of not eating every time she cries. but for the first couple of weeks it's really feed on demand, i don't know if there's much you can do about it.

Yeah, our approach so far has mostly been to err on the side of feeding. Sometimes it seems like she just asks to eat so she can be on mommy, but even if so, nothing bad about that exactly.

having a really weird struggle getting the kid to say "please." she'll say "thank you," says "bless you" after someone sneezes, but won't say please, even though she knows the word. this is the usual discussion:
k: "cracker?"
p: "you want a cracker?"
k: "yeah."
p: "can you say please?"
k: "NO" (either goes back to what she was doing or starts getting mad that we won't just give her the cracker)
alternately, when we ask her if she can say please, she just says "yeah" but won't say please.
anyway, it's a relatively unimportant thing to turn into a big struggle so i think we're going to back off of it for a couple of weeks and then try again.

she also loves this terrible song, but it contributed nothing to her actually saying "please":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaZ26-noUEc

i'd say keep at the please and thank you thing -- our kid was similarly resistant for a while, but seems to have gotten it in the last couple weeks. now everything is "may i please have a snack, my daddy?" she sort of sounds like she's mocking me, but i'll take it, whatever.

yeah it's just weird how pissed off she gets when we try to get her to say it. i guess because it's just an arbitrary thing and so there's no logic to why we won't just give her what she wants? but we try to make a big deal out of praising her when she says it, which usually works.

p: "can you say please?"
k: "NO"

LOL

This is up there with the angry crib babbling for things that I am finding v. amusing that are probably not as amusing to you.

p: "can you say please?"
k: "NO"

reminds me of that Jimmy Fallon credit card commercial

I relish my status as asshole dad when this comes up.

BEEPS: I want some popcorn.
ME: Yeah? I want a beer.

*pause*

BEEPS: May I have some popcorn?
ME: … … ... Anything else you'd like to add to that?
BEEPS: PLEASE?
ME: Why certainly, my favorite daughter….

You're teaching her to be cunning and duplicitous, is that what you're trying to say? Kudos, that will serve her well in the coming apocalyptic future where street urchins rule the world.

pp, when you're ready to level up your asshole dad status, you can respond to statements like "I want some popcorn" the way my dad did: "People in hell want icewater." Or if he were feeling playful, "And if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass a'hoppin'."

it also reminds me of a great lesson a friend's mom gave me about being a parent: tell, don't ask

it's harder than it sounds - i always find myself going like, "ready for some dinner now?" and that opens the window juuuuust enough to get into a big negotiation. there is actually no option. dinner is happening now. there isn't another time to have it. so why do i ASK my own THREE YEAR OLD if it's OK with HIM to have dinner?? it is ridiculous. i think it comes from wanting to give him agency, or make him feel like he has a part in what's going on, but at this point..... he has plenty of agency. more than enough.

the other lesson she gave me was: say yes as much as you can

in ref: "can you say please?", i mean

i think with the please thing i was just a hard ass and was like "IF you say please THEN you can have the fucking cookie." it's like a computer program, almost! and if he refused he didn't get it. then if he cried i have to admit i sometimes thought to myself "good, it's working"

You are so mean. I am so mean too so I know what I'm talking about.

!!!

Coulda sworn he was teaching her to phrase her requests straightforwardly ("may I have" instead of "I want"), in a way that respects and acknowledges parental authority, and uses language standards of good etiquette. Duplicity, really?!

He's teaching her to butter him up, is what I think, in a knowing way! I'm not saying this a societal evil; just the opposite.

tell, don't ask -- yeah, i am constantly like "should we put our shoes on? do you want to go for a walk? will you take another bite?" which is just wrong and rarely gets the right response, but i can't stop! need to work on it.

I don't think I was ever asked to say please. It was always "what's the magic word?" followed by a cold, meaningful look. Of course, eventually we learned to respond by saying "abracadabra" in a really sarky way, but it took a good few years to reach that point.

Has anyone used one of those co-sleepers in their bed and if so which one? Pros/cons?

we got a cosleeper but the baby never really slept in it much, she usually ended up in bed with us. but it probably depends on the baby. the only real con aside from that was that i had a hell of a time getting it to stay flush with the bed, so there was often a little gap between the bed and the cosleeper, which made me a little nervous.

we went from having her sleep in our bed, to her sleeping in the co-sleeper next to our bed, to sleeping in her crib in her own room.

I think I am confused...what do you call a small, bed like item that can fit between to people in bed? We want one of those so she can sleep between us. Having a hard time picking one since parents say they get hot, don't fit in a queen size bed etc....

I don't know, but we used to have this thing that was like basically two wedges of foam rubber covered in white cloth and it created two little "walls" that kept the baby from rolling over (and more to the point, kept us from rolling on him). Though with baby #1 we didn't have anything and we never rolled over on him. I think it's highly unlikely unless you're a heavy drinker or something. But the little wedges helped us sleep because we weren't worried about it. I have no idea what it's called.

And that said, he moved to a basket next to our bed after like... two weeks probably?

yeah our daughter was in the cosleeper next to the bed within a few weeks iirc. even in our tiny bed we never rolled over onto her (she slept in the middle), I think that the odds of that are pretty low tbh - unless parents are really huge and/or drunk I guess. part of it was that we were only sleeping for a few hours at a time (at the most) so it's not like we ever got into a deep sleep, and the other thing is that subconsciously our bodies seemed to register DO NOT CRUSH BABY even in our sleep.

We've been kind of going back and forth btw bed and co-sleeper. Pediatrician suggested that it's not too early to at least get her somewhat used to the idea that you sleep in the cosleeper, not in mom and dad's bed. Obviously she still winds up sleeping on us for at least part of the night. But I am terrified of the crushing thing -- I have already woken up multiple times with the sensation that the baby is inside my pillow and I am suffocating her, like I really think this for about 30 seconds and am horrified.

My wife has also been on painkillers so that's an added crushing concern.

btw Ken L I've been meaning to ask you -- why would you have guessed that Keren would be the name?

Just that it is a really common name for Israelis- maybe the most common name for girls these days?- and it is the name of the wife of a friend of mine who my aging brain sometimes confuses you with.

Hmm interesting. I checked a list of top Israeli girl names and it's not in the top 10, thankfully. One of our choices, Noa, was #1.

We got the idea from the artist Keren Cytter, who my wife likes a lot.

It basically met all our checks: works in both Hebrew and English, sounds good with my last name, not laden with biblical weight, nice meaning ("ray of light"), etc.

Thanks, that's a much better explanation than mine:)

Can someone explain this to me?
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7203/6933170213_eaf360cc29_z.jpg

I believe that's the shirt you get for your baby boy when he bangs a bunch of chicks and writes a book about it?

lol

sooooo

how do you tell another parent - one that you like and that you've known since your kids were in diapers - that their kid needs professional help

am considering some kind of group-intervention-style scenario

Why do you think the kid needs professional help?

shall I list symptoms? Kid is 4.

- until fairly recently, vocabulary was quite limited. would express frustration with furious arm-flapping (he is speaking a bit more now, but still does this as well)
- can't hold or draw with a pen, crayon, or pencil
- throws tantrums/fits on a regular basis. full-on wailing/flailing/punching & kicking fits.
- has very specific fixations/obsessions in terms of what he will do/play, limits play to a small number of social activities.
- physically combative, emotions/reactions of other children don't seem to register.
- won't eat anything except peanuts, prunes, some other fruits and I think crackers/bread.
- refused to relinquish pacifier until just a few months ago

that's all I can think of right now. I have noticed that a lot of these types of things are commonly cited in autism studies. but I am not a professional, I just see how this kid interacts with our kid and as he can be disruptive/abusive these things have caught our attention.

I imagine his parents have to have thought the thoughts but haven't had to face the facts yet.

I think every time they've been confronted with these issues they have just switched schools (he is on his third preschool)

ugh, that's bad news. Do you think he might be dangerous for other kids to be around?

Shakey Mo, I have no experience in breaking that kind of observation to parents. But I've worked with a lot of kids of that ilk and... you should tell your friends to send their kid to a screening. Not a professional, mind you, but just a kind of neuropsych check-up. For the kid's benefit. All the signs you observe are, indeed, flags (although for autism or something else is super hard to predict) but allowing the parents just the possibility of a screening as a release, and a maybe transitional step toward greater intervention. If they're resisting, it's likely they know that something is wrong, and fear medicalizing/diagnosing/Rxing/stigmatizing their kid, and that pointing them in the direction of a specific pathology may make them resist more. IOW just kinda say 'better to do it now and be reassured or risk the possibility that maybe maybe there's something time-sensitive you aren't catching, and w/o early intervention these situations can rapidly degrade.'

no WmC I don't think he's dangerous. I mean, he's only 4 he's not really capable of inflicting serious damage on anyone (besides himself I guess). and it's not that he's mean or cruel or abusive it's just kinda like other people don't, I dunno, exist to him, in some ways...?

and thx Remy - yeah at the moment what we're wrestling with is how to convince the parents, without ruining our relationship with them (we like them! they are nice people!), that this is maybe something that they should check out, and the sooner the better. But I think even broaching the subject is problematic, we don't want to appear like we're disparaging their parenting or stigmatizing the child or anything like that. it's... tricky.

id be really v. surprised if a caretaker hasn't brought it up already.

theres no way you can broach this and come out unscathed. its their kid after all.

I don't know, but we used to have this thing that was like basically two wedges of foam rubber covered in white cloth and it created two little "walls" that kept the baby from rolling over

yeah, ours was called the "lil snuggler" but it may not be sold anymore, saw something similar called the snuggle nest. should be able to get one fairly cheap.

Thanks, Buzza and Hurting...putting it on the list.

FINALLY easy, convenient compostable diapers: http://www.earth-baby.com/summary.php?go=products

the whole toxic-disposable-diaper thing really bothered me

So, Ms. BLAM and I are having a daughter. She's scheduled to arrive July 5th, but if she's anything like either of us, she'll be early.

I am so very very stoked, but also so very very freaked the heck out. This board has made me feel very good today, though.

Congratulations, T&JS, and H2!

congrats blam!

congrats!

(her name better have nothing to do with the ravens)

Thanks guys!! Nope - No Ravens references, but I have offered a bonus payment to those who provide any Ravens swag to the little miss.

I will be forthcoming with her name when she arrives. Kind of want to keep it a secret until the day. We are entirely sure its going to be a girl, however - the sonogram tech was like "Its basically like she's sitting on a glass table. No questions here!" And I hope this is true, because her "aunties" have been extremely generous in providing a Pepto Bismol themed wardrobe thus far.

Yeah that compostable diaper thing looks like a good solution -- I hate using mass landfill-fill diapers but the usual alternative is cloth, which is labor and water intensive, so imo not necessarily a great alternative.

Congrats, BLAM!

awww many congrats to you BLAM :)

Congrats! Someday you will get to have this conversation with your beautiful daughter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry-LwxR746s

Oh yeah and congrats BLAM!

congrats blam!

more congrats blam! It's going to be a fun next several months for you!

earlier than july 5th? I believe this short video best conveys my congratulations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGiYEWRzTik

thread derail:

my preschool co-op has monthly meetings about various issues, my wife and I alternate who has to go. The last two have been about dealing with race/cultural sensitivity, etc. While both of us found the facilitator and her tactics to be extremely irritating (trust circles! role playing!) even MORE irritating has been the exposure of some really unfortunate/unbelievably blinkered attitudes, most of which can be summed up with "rmde @ white people"

like, guess what, white people don't want to talk about race! People actually unironically parrot Stephen Colbert's "I don't see color" routine! White people have a hard time identifying ways in which they might be priveleged, have more power than others! White people don't understand why they should have to do this at all, cuz aren't we all sensitive, conscientious (ie, liberal) adults in this community? argggh

seriously made me want to stab

How culturally diverse is your preschool? I'm very interested in this topic concerning children.

Enrollment people clearly work REALLY hard to get a diverse mix of children in the school - while the majority is white, there are latino, black, asian, and a number of mixed-race children. I'd say the population distribution is roughly equivalent to the US as a whole. Even so, it's mind-boggling how it doesn't seem to register with various white people that the ones taking the "I don't want to discuss this at all" angle are all white. gee, why is that... like people actually say things like "my kid will just figure it out!", "I tell them skin color doesn't matter" etc.

like what fucking world are you living in!? so infuriating.

I find it difficult to teach our five-year-old about racism without teaching her racism, if that makes any sense.

Beeps has been doing this thing where she switches around phonic sounds and makes spoonerisms, kinda cute. She's also one helluva contrarian.

The other night, I told her to eat her chicken nuggets. She retorted They're chicken NIGGETS!

I turned to her and said, "Don't say that, please." She says WHY? I tell her "because they're called nuggets. Use the correct word."

"But I wanna call them NIGGETS."

How do I even cross over this bridge with a five-year-old? She didn't technically say anything wrong and she certainly didn't mean anything by it. Maybe I was being too sensitive. Still.

She finally got it out of her system, but I dread the phone call from school we're bound to get one of these days.

(Good thing they've got sunny's cell and not mine.)

lol, yikes! not racially unsettling, but my 2 1/2 year old has had some similar things she's said, where we just try to ignore it. like she went through a kind of gibberish-spouting phase where she was basically saying: "tittay tittay tittay" ... got some weird looks in restaurants for that one.

Veronica totally does that too, it's a verbal/language thing, just playing with sounds.

I woulda let that one go, probably. But if she inadvertently hit on a slur I would tell her not to use that particular combination of syllables and why.

xp

also discussing race is not quite the same thing as discussing racism, imho...? Like, acknowledging and recognizing differences in skin color, that's just teaching your child to be observant about race. This person looks like this, that person looks like that, you look like this = your child understanding the ways that people are different from each other.

How value is ascribed to that skin color is where the "racism 101" stuff comes in.

I think grown-ups' discomfort with talking about race stuff gives kids the feeling that it's bad!! They can tell when something seems off-limits, which is the same as when they do things that are shameful and you socialize them to do it in private: touch themselves, talk about pooping, pick their noes, I dunno, whatever it is. Anyway, lots of times adults shut kids down for talking about colors of people or w/e and it can make it seem "bad" to them. Probably there are more positive, open-ended ways?

otoh we are kind of at the end of a stage where we've taught Veronica that it isn't nice/polite to shout out characteristics of random people she sees. we try to emphasize that while she should recognize these things and feel free to discuss them in the proper context (friends, social situations, etc.) it's rude to just shout things at people. which is a good lesson in general.

xp

I think grown-ups' discomfort with talking about race stuff gives kids the feeling that it's bad!!

yeah this is totally what happens. And then they either make up their own weird theories or absorb the weird theories of their peers.

Beeps has done her fair share of yelling out "That little brown boy has a SpongeBob balloon!" in the parking lot. Shakey otm about just saying it's rude to shout like that.

also discussing race is not quite the same thing as discussing racism, imho…?

And this is true too. What I meant was, I didn't really want to teach her a new word while going on about how bad it is. We've gone over skin differences already with me making the comparison to differences in eye color, which is completely the same thing, amirite?

I don't know, does she need to know she said something similar to "a bad word"? It seems like a tenuous connection to try to make without confusing her.

We've gone over skin differences already with me making the comparison to differences in eye color, which is completely the same thing, amirite?

totally. hope you threw in that all redheads are demon children while you were at it lol

Congratulations, BLAM!

like, guess what, white people don't want to talk about race! People actually unironically parrot Stephen Colbert's "I don't see color" routine! ........
― be scientific, douchebag (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, March 6, 2012 10:29 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

PP and I were messing around joking about racists and crazily PC peeps and I said something like 'Hey, Dude. I don't know what race that person is. I'm like totally colorblind' when it hit me for the first time ever. 'Hey! wait a minute. COLORBLIND PEOPLE STILL SEE BLACK AND WHITE!!!'

Realizations of the 39 y/o

i don't care if you're black, white, purple -- only if you're red or green

that ep187 story about the woman who had the dinner party and was flirting with a dude she hadn't met before as everyone was leaving. After everyone had left she hears a noise from outside and looks to the side kitchen door.
(in Seth's high pitched girl voice)"AJ??"
(in Johnathon's super low crazy person voice)"I FORGOT TO RAPE YOU"

just
dying

wrong thread, imo.

T and I have been reading about attachment parenting and we're both really into this idea. Anyone have any knowledge of this, ideas about it?

i think we do attachment parenting? i don't really remember what it entails exactly, but a lot of it just seemed like common sense good parenting.

I haven't read on it in enough depth, but I'm skeptical of any totalizing parental philosophy. I also think it seems very anxiety-producing (and anxiety-driven), because the implied inverse of attachment parenting is that failure to sufficiently do all these attachment-forming/encouraging things to a sufficient extent will lead your child to be some kind of emotional cripple or insecure person. I mean at some point on the spectrum, of course, that's true. I generally think babywearing, breastfeeding, lots of time holding the baby, lots of positive interaction are all good and so far I can see that these things make our baby feel secure. At the same time I have watched friends wind up with a child who still sleeps in the bed with mom and dad at age 3. It's hard to say that this was "because" they were so gung-ho about attachment parenting. Maybe the root of it is really the underlying anxiety -- sending the child the message that he won't be ok without you and you won't be ok without him.

I also find it hard to believe that discipline and good behavior can be learned without any kind of negative feedback ever.

From what I understand you always keep your baby close to you, as in no baby carries or stollers. When at home, you have a lot of skin on skin contact with the baby, and when the baby cries you feed her/him. Some books we read seem to think you shouldn't feed the baby when ever it cries, to train it in some way. But this seems like a weird punishment since crying is the only resource the baby has to express itself.

But this is just for the first month or two, when the baby is still in a fragile state. Right?

I agree there should be a point where boundaries should be established, like we are Mom and Dad and you are a person. But I'm on board for these first months of closeness. A friend of T has a baby that is almost a month old and last night they went to see Radiohead, and it confused me. They are also planning on going to most of SXSW. I'm having a hard time with the fact I will have to go back to work, and can't imagine caring about rock shows.

I know that sounds pompous of me, but these people were trying to have a baby for a year, I dunno.

nah that sounds insane you are OTM

I am also suspicious of totalizing parental philosophies (ie, "WE parent like this!") although of course various tactics and practices should be tried to see what works for you and your baby. But I don't subscribe to some kind of parenting dogma, different kids require different strategies. Being all anxious and stressed about whether you are parenting the "right" way is going to be picked up by your kid.

I would also venture that feeding your baby whenever it cries might not be advisable, since babies cry for other reasons than being hungry....? Best to try and determine what they're crying about and then meet that need.

Yeah for the first month or two (or three) I think your whole job is to make the baby feel safe and loved and fed and clean. Literally always keeping the baby on you seems nearly impossible to me, especially since my wife had a C-section. Plus, I know you can only get so much from the facial expression of a newborn, but honestly she seems to like being in the crib or stroller or car seat just fine sometimes, and she lets us know when she doesn't.

As far as the feeding, I believe in feeding on demand, but we realized after a couple weeks that ours was asking to eat whenever she wanted comfort and when she wasn't hungry, e.g. she'd eat for half an hour, then ask to eat again 20 minutes later, and then ask to eat again another 20 minutes after that, and then spit up a ton. So we started trying to find other ways to comfort her when she asks to eat right after a feeding, for example I found a bouncing/rocking method that really calms her down. When this doesn't work, we know she's really hungry. No "punishment" involved, per se.

Also in re Shakey's point, you can kind of tell the difference between an "I want to eat" cry and other cries. Also there are pre-crying hunger signs and most of what we've read says feed upon these signs and don't wait for the crying when possible.

babies are so weird

they are. Like sometimes she looks totally content and happy to see me and the all of the sudden she screams her head off like she's having an acid flashback and my head just turned into a tarantula.

for real! geez learn to sleep already, amirite?

x-post - lol otm

that was to GBX

Also I really really wish I knew more people with kids because I'd like to hang out with some (especially babies). I need to start getting more comfortable around them and soon.

omg knocked up

Ha, no. Not currently.

the only terrifying baby moment I have had was when holding my friends one day old. older babbies are kinda whatever, p durable, nbd, but I felt like I was holding a fucking vial of nitroglycerin, just red alert full time

They are so small!! Terrifying. Seriously though everyone I'm good friends with irl is child-free which is great but I am getting old and will probably have kids sooner rather than later and would like some procreating friends with kids to practice with please and thank you.

rent-a-baby

Thanks Hurting and Shakey, I really enjoy reading what you guys post here. I have this idea that being intuitive will help out more than any parenting school of thought.

fedex'ing you a baby to hang out with. please return safely in 2-3 mos

xp

we need a babysitter next weekend, enbb, can you come to colorado.

parenting books are a total racket set up by people who want to make money off the insecurities of others

fyi

ps you will be stressed out about whether you're parenting right anyway

xp shakey, know what you mean, i wouldn't go *that* far -- some parenting books are good to have handy if you're totally stumped. but i really agree with hurting that in those first few months your job is: "make the baby feel safe and loved and fed and clean."

after those first few months are over, you can just sit back and relax.

haha yeah I was being a little over-the-top for cheap lolz. there were some specific things we couldn't figure out on our own that we of course turned to books (and doctors, and yoga teachers haha) for some ideas.

but in general I find the whole parenting "industry" exploitative and irritating in the extreme

Tyler if I was in CO I'd babysit for free! I would totally start a free babysitting service in my neighborhood if wasn't inherently totally creepy.

I'm great with kids and toddlers it's just the really young ones that I have absolutely no experience with and therefore freak me out. Hurting you should post a pic of your new daughter :)

Anyway, sorry to interrupt. I find the whole attachment parenting thing really interesting.

in 10 years detachment parenting will be the big thing

i think parenting books have utility, but their main utility is helping new parents feel like they have some kind of idea of what to do instead of being totally lost. this sounds like a criticism but i think it's actually an important benefit. you learn pretty quickly to pick and choose what seems like good advice and what seems wacko - we have one of the sears books (the sears family are the big names in attachment parenting) and there's definitely crazy stuff scattered throughout. like i'm glad we had a carrier to use in the first year but i don't know if it made our baby a better person, it was just often handy to have two hands free.

yeah carriers are very handy

I'm surprised at myself with how earthy I am with having a baby, with having a midwife and doing a water birth, but it just seems natural for us to be having our baby this way. We haven't decided on what T will use, she wants to use a sling. I have a baby backpack that she can sit in my front or back.

A tip in re baby-wearing -- we found that, at least for now, the Ring Sling is the best compromise between having a nice, lightweight, natural, comfortable, free-ish thing that makes you feel close to the baby without needing a ten-hour training course in "babywearing." We also have the Becco Gemini but she's a little small for it.

ilxor (former?) Vicky is BRILLIANT at slings and I wish she posted still/more so she could tell you about them!! I have watched her bundle her toddler up inside her coat and walk around NYC w him all day.

More power to people who want to go all the way with that sort of thing.

Oh, that's another thing, parenting unleashes latent consumerism in you that you will not believe you were capable of.

we had an ergo, slings make me nervous but plenty of people seem to do well with them

yeah we had a few parenting books & I kinda halfheartedly read them before #1 & it ended up being a total waste of time. I think you learn more from getting stoned a few times & then trying to do something important afterward, b/c you just feel that disoriented for a month or two.

the ring-sling positions the baby upright on you more the way other carriers do, or at least that's how we use it

Vicky gave us a Mei Tai - http://www.meitaibaby.com/ - when our first was born: probably the most useful piece of baby kit we've had, we're now using it with daughter no. 2.

my daughter hated the sling, was definitely not okay with it. ergo worked out much better. diff strokes for diff strokes

also lol @ Euler's stoner analogy

diff folks!

we need a babysitter next weekend, enbb, can you come to colorado.

― tylerw, Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:11 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

wait I can. on vacation, need to go skiing. I have several backpacks that can fit a babby, and I am p sure that being in the backcountry is good for young branes

I will accept bootlegs as payment

Vicky is some kind of abnormal genius who can just use, like, a long piece of stretchy fabric with no discernible purpose and end up with a happy baby, safely attached to her person. But she can also suggest "gateway slings" for everyone else.

babysitting payment is three bootlegs an hour, which i believe is colorado state minimum wage. sound good?

u have a deal

overtime must be paid entirely in neil youngs and/or feelies

A friend of mine makes her own Mei Tais and says they're amazing.

That Mei Tais in general are amazing not that the ones she makes are even more so or anything.

I have this!
http://www.myergobabycarrier.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/detail-2.jpg

I like when babies get worn on the front facing out and they're just sorta hanging around, watching the world. It cracks me up.

yeah, or it looks like the baby is actually controlling the adult.

yeah the Becco is somewhat similar to that ergobaby thing. Plus it looks like a flak jacket so I can be all badass and dadass at the same time.

http://filmwad.com/fw_images/2007/10/12/kuato.jpg

xp

haw, yes. not quite as gross as that, but that's the general idea.

ENBB- Raising six one day old baby chicks is probably the closest I ever got to caring for a newborn. I didn't want them to die on me. They ate pretty frequently and a lot so I was constantly filling their feeder, checking on them through the night, and they did have certain peeps for hunger and for being too cold, too hot. Regulating their temperature was scary, didn't want to cook them, didn't want them to die from being too cold.

One got very ill. I was up all night on a work night trying to keep her from dying on me. I nursed her back to health, no one else got ill either.

There was this satisfaction the first time I was able to take them outside. That night I kept looking out the window to make sure they wouldn't attract raccoons. Didn't want to come this far and wake up to a murder scene. The whole experience, I feel, did something for me. Maybe I am too sensitive or just nuts but it really did. I feel more prepared for a human baby than if I never cared for anything so tiny and fragile before.

A few years later I had to free a chick from it's shell and that was scary. One wrong move and they can bleed to death. Having a tiny, wet, newborn baby chick was a whole other 24 hour experience. She imprinted on me and that was attachment parenting-extreme. Could not leave her alone for even a second or she would screech her head off. The older chickens wanted nothing to with her and she didn't seem to know what the hell they were. Once Monday came around I took off a day from work and got her a sister from the feed store, problem solved.

ergo 4 lyfe

so comfortable

I don't look on here for a few weeks and look what happens! Congrats on the birth of Keren Hurting,and congrats Tera and JS, and BLAM!

So yes, slings! I love em, whatever your parenting 'philosophy. Handy to get around on public transport, wander in the countryside, give cuddles when you want to be getting on with something else, and really come into their own when you're on child #2 and child #1 needs some attention.

www.slingguide.co.uk is a really good guide to all the available types of sling out there, how to choose, how to use, where to buy (in the UK) etc. I don't believe that there is a 'best' sling, just the one that suits the parent and the baby at that particular time. I love wraps but I've used mei tais, ring sling, and soft structured carrier (e.g. an ergo, basically a buckle carrier)

People often get scared of the prices, but hey, you're carrying your child in there, and they hold their value REALLY well. If you buy second hand you can usually get back what you paid for it. They come up on Craiglist, ebay etc. and there's a large forum based in the US www.thebabywearer.com though it is a bit intimidatingly big and anachronistic for newbies.

Wraps are the most scary, but the best birth - pre-schooler carrier, imo. They have a steep learning curve but once you've got it you're away.

From newborn snuggles, through babyhood, toddlerhood into pre-schooler years, wherever you go.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6040/5902013655_af341de465.jpg
agave 3 by vickyp, on Flickr

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6199/6085930686_de0a847902.jpg
IMG_2063 by vickyp, on Flickr

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4132/4843484727_1c4ab6345f.jpg
Untitled by vickyp, on Flickr

If I had to be labelled then I'm sure I'd be labelled an attached parent. We're definitely going more that way than with Aidan, though some people might think we were pretty 'hippy' with him. We just did what we felt was best for him and us. There's no right or wrong way, you do the amount of reading that you think you need to do and you go with what you think makes sense, and you adjust if you feel you need to. The things we're doing differently second time around were/are homebirth, co-sleeping, totally babywearing not using a pram/buggy (that's more because it's easier for me, Molly and Aidan, rather than because a book told me it was what I should be doing). Things that we've done the same, BF on demand, self weaning, baby led weaning with solids, no smacking.

The changes we've made have their plus points and negative points. I have started to feel touched out at times (Molly's almost 9 months) and I want to get my evenings back so we're going to use the No Sleep Solution to start getting her to sleep on her own in the evenings, rather than being on my lap/boob downstairs until our bedtime. But as I said no way is perfect, you can't live your life how it was before children, it will never be the same and compromises have to be made whichever way you decide to parent.

No smacking?

But yes I am remiss in congratulating the Big Loud Mountain Ape! And *tera (still impending, right?)

Yeah the only downside of the Ergo is that it can't really be used for the first 3-4 months. They sell an "infant insert" that didn't really work well in our experience. But god every other carrier we tried was either massively uncomfortable or just sort of a pain to get on and off. Agreed completely about how useful they are with baby #2, when you need to be mobile and have both hands free for dealing with whatever nonsense #1 is getting up to. If you get a good one it'll last through both kids (or more?) so you're talking years of use. (Add all that time up, and think about what that time is doing to your back, and it's worth getting one that's comfortable/doesn't dig into your neck/etc). That said vickyp and I both live in one of the walkin'-est cities there is; maybe if you lived in Chattanooga a sling wouldn't be such an essential thing.

my kindergartner took huge exception to being SBd to her room last night. after about 20 minutes of howling protest (it was her big brother's fault) she asked for paper, which we allowed. 5 minutes later, she wordlessly delivered this note to the dinner table and returned to her room:

http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr222/Chass3ur/IMG_2268.jpg

kindergartener- spelling is a core family strength apparently

lol, smiley face after the signature is the kicker.

Those photos are great Vicky! Thanks for the websites too! I'm interested in hearing about your home birthing experience. If you wouldn't mind sharing?

lol initially misread that note as "wish I could have a beer"

omg that note

Can you pls help decipher though?

Lonely wish I could have a better . . . family?!

lol

aw

Passive aggressive notes

fwiw, around age 6 I once told my parents "I hate you, and if you get a divorce, it will be the happiest day of my life!" over some perceived slight that I have long forgotten.

EEK, Hurting...lol

You should tell Katie she HAD a better family, but due to a terrible miscommunication they left her at a highway rest stop outside Toledo with no identifying items and you could never find them again.

lol initially misread that note as "wish I could have a beer"

― the sir edmund hillary of sitting through pauly shore films (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, March 9, 2012 12:12 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ditto

Such a hilarious note! Aidan's doing phonics at school and his spelling demonstrates just how wack spelling in the English Language is.

Tracer, is that a 'you don't hit your children?' or 'what the hell is smacking?!'

I don't mind sharing about the homebirth at all, but I think the arrangement was much easier here than for anyone in the US (I'm in the UK, London to be precise) In a lot of ways the actual birth was very similar to my first birth. I was lucky enough to be in our local midwife led birth centre at our nearest hospital and I had a straightforward waterbirth. Long labour and I spent a long time at home before going in. I spent most of the time on my exercise ball bouncing, I totally zoned out and remember very little to be honest. Chris tells me I shouted etc. but I don't remember the pain in any detail, the impatience I do remember! Anyway, after a straightforward no pain relief birth the first time round a homebirth second time round was a no brainer. Our hospital have a team of midwives specifically for homebirths, you have two midwives allocated for antenatal appointments and a least one of these midwives will attend the birth. They come to the house for all appointments (first time I had to go to my Drs surgery which ran notoriously late, one appointment was over an hour late) The midwife I knew the best was the one who attended the birth. She had been an independent midwife so was brilliant, totally didn't mind me questioning normal NHS policy. Chris and I decided against the vitamin K, we used embroidery thread for the cord tie, and had a natural 3rd stage same as the first birth.

Not having to go into hospital was awesome. It was fabulous not having to worry about when was the best time to go in. First time round I went in too early and got sent home then spent the whole day wondering when to go in. Once things kicked off second time round it was pretty intense and it was so reassuring to be in my own home. We borrowed an inflatable birth pool from a friend, I made sure Chris got it up and filled it early on, I'd heard too many stories of women not being able to use the pool with second births as they didn't get it up in time! I got in the pool once my waters went and was in there for 1hr 27 mins before she was born. Once she arrived I wasn't that comfortable in the pool so once it stopped pulsing Chris cut it and we all got out. It was so wonderful to be able to lie with her on my own sofa, skin to skin while she had a proper feed and fell asleep. The midwives stayed 2 hours and then left after helping Chris tidy up, then we just sat around for a while until Chris eventually went to get Aidan. The midwives came round about 4-5 times in the two weeks after birth and then signed us off. It was fantastic, I'd highly recommend a homebirth if you have supportive midwives, Chris agrees, he was very impressed with the whole thing, he felt more in charge of stuff he could be involved with, even just being able to put the kettle on to make a cup of tea for the midwives.

God that's turned into an essay. Maybe we should have started a separate birth thread. Oh well!

Thanks, that's exactly what T and I want, avoiding the hospital has been one of our main concerns. Except we're having it at a birthing center. In the part of Texas we live, there are only two midwives for at least a three hundred mile radius. They might work with a OBGYN, yet hospitals and doctors seem almost hostile to the idea midwives and outside hospital births. We have had a hard time with friends and family thinking we are crazy hippies for choosing this and that's hasn't been easy. The midwife we choose has been a blessing. She asks questions the doctors never did, has informed us of issues that doctors didn't and all in all has been more in sync with our vision of birth.

thanks all. yeah, the translation is "Lonely. Wish I could have a better family! Katie :)" given that we're talking about a kindergartener, it scores for me on pathos, lols, and drama scales. the mystery is in the %s.

my sister's immediate response was "that's exactly how i felt growning up in our house!"

Oh bless!

JS, out of the mothers at the baby group I went to with Aidan I was the only one who gave birth in the birth centre and I was the only one who had no intervention whatsoever. The others varied from induction, forceps/ventouse, through to C-section. Yes there are women alive now who would have died in childbirth without modern medical intervention but that's only a tiny minority, and a birth centre/homebirth doesn't mean you can't get that support if you need it. When things go wrong at birth it's either over a long period of time and a well trained midwife will know about it and seek help, or it's so quick that not even being in a hospital would make a difference.

Sounds like you've got a fabulous midwife!

I thought you might have meant "snacking"!

We had a homebirth the second time around and it was like night and day. For #1 we were in the hospital, hooked up to machines, eventually she went with an epidural, couldn't feel a goddamn thing, ventouse action eventually produced a result. Total exhaustion and never really feeling like we knew WTH was happening or what we should do.

For #2 we did a homebirth and, uh, I will admit that we dabbled in "hypnobirthing".. which is frankly an oversell of what it is. There are things the partner reads to the mother-to-be, touchy feely stuff with a lot of repetition, intended really to just help her get relaxed. A lot of light massage. She was a little apprehensive about the whole birth, given the suboptimal experience the first time around, and it really helped. In the event it all went really well. We had a pool but she gave birth before I could even get it filled up. After about four hours of contractions things suddenly got a lot more intense and she was like "I think we should go to the hospital" and the midwives were like, you're doing great, you don't need to go, and afterwards they told me that was the sign that they knew she was ready to start pushing. Less than 10 minutes later she'd given birth!

my 5-yo niece surprised my sister last week by asking if she'd ever been married before. (Yes.) Haven't gotten a report on the answer.

pardon the pop-in.

The information on the Vitamin K shot it a little baffling!

We figured, no one knows what a newborn's level should be, it's mother nature's 'yeah some babies may die after a traumatic birth but most will be fine' Vs modern medcines 'a tiny % of newborns would die without so we're going to inject this without actually knowing if it has any ill effect as it's impossible to tell' Birth was straight forward so we figured 'mother nature' was probably the right choice for us. http://aims.org.uk/Journal/Vol13No2/vitk.htm I'd decided against the injection definitely but was unsure about whether to give it orally or not.

Basically we were like "whatever u midwives say is our gospel" on that subject and every other

One cool thing about the homebirth was that the head midwife asked me if I wanted to check out the placenta! I was like... uh YEAH?! It's not like there will be many more chances. It was in a bucket. We took it up to the kitchen, spread it out on a plastic bag, and she showed me all the parts of it and explained what they do. Which I've remembered every detail of, obviously.

Wow! I would like to plant a tree the day after Baby August is born and place the placenta under the roots of the tree.

Wish I knew what happened to daughter no.1 placenta - the midwife said it was the biggest she'd ever seen. We had a home birth then and it was great - in our dining room, in an inflatable pool, v chill midwife tag team, all very cool. But post-birth we were sent to hospital for stitches - this was 1am or so. Were left in a waiting room for 4 or 5 hours, waiting for a free surgeon as there was some emergency rush on. Around 6am, sleepless, I had to go home and deal with the birthing pool before mother-in-law arrived. The term "blood bath" suddenly felt horribly literal. :/

D:

Even just dealing with cleaning up the non-birthed-in pool was a massive thing. I sort of wonder how worth it they are. Though people do say they're great.

I have been very impressed with our mid-wife. So far I have no fears and really don't expect to, but I did have a thought pop up that could have been a psychological block. I read that such things could impede labor so I brought it up with her and she pretty much counseled us (me) successfully. I appreciate the homework. She does work but we have work to do as well, it is our birth after all.

J. and I were talking about the spiritual air we encounter and just overall good feelings at her center but sans any new age vibe.

Planning on a water birth.

I read Birthing from Within and in the book they explained the different ways the placenta is used. I skipped over that part but went back and read it and thought that I might want to bury it with a tree. It isn't what I thought I would want to do because it all seems so "earthy" and I was the most non-earthy person there was but pregnancy has changed all that. So yeah, I want a placenta fruit tree now.

Placenta fruit tree is nothin' compared to what this lady did with hers:

http://www.momlogic.com/2009/04/i_ate_the_placenta.php

One of my good friends was vehemently against the medicalization of birth and had planned a home water birth (in the UK which is, as Vicky pointed out diff to the US in terms of attitudes about these things). Unfortunately she wound up being in labor for 5 days and having an emergency c-section. She was pretty devastated that things hadn't gone according to her plan in a way that makes me think it's pretty important to always bear in mind that anything can happen/change during the process. She recently had her second baby which was planned for a birth center delivery but it all happened so quickly that she had her in her bedroom before the paramedics even got to the house!

Tera - have you seen http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0995061/plotsummary? I thought it was pretty great.

Oh I meant to write out the title too. It's "The Business of Being Born".

I would like to be open minded enough to eat the Placenta, but I'm just not. I dunno, I just dunno

Yeah I heard about that....not quite THAT earthy. The first mid-wife I interviewed had on her website that she also offered placental encapsulation. I didn't know what that was and when I searched found this:

Placentophagy, or consumption of the placenta, has been reported for decades to help stop the baby blues and diminish postpartum fatigue. Some women have cooked the placenta in a stew, mixed it into a smoothie, or even taken it raw to tap into its powerful effects. For many who feel squeamish about this or want to reap the benefits of placenta for more than just a day or two, there is another option: encapsulation. Powdered placenta has been used in Traditional Chinese Medicine for centuries. In the postpartum period, placenta capsules can be used to

balance your hormones
enhance your milk supply
increase your energy
Although current research on human placentophagy does not exist, what we do know is that women who take placenta capsules report fewer emotional issues, have more energy and tend to enjoy a faster, more pleasant postpartum recovery. The first few days and weeks with your new baby are precious. Give yourself the best chance to fully enjoy your “babymoon” with placenta capsules.

I watched The Business of Being Born...I don't remember that part at all....

Oh, that was a real story about my friend which just makes me think it's important to bear in mind that plans sometimes have to change at the last minute and that that's OK too. The movie thing was just a separate thought because it occurred to me you might like it if you hadn't already seen it.

I would like to be open minded enough to eat the Placenta, but I'm just not. I dunno, I just dunno

― JacobSanders, Friday, March 9, 2012 6:28 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Totally with you on that tbh. I just . . . yeah. The encapsulation thing would be easier to swallow (har har) but again, I just don't know.

Never mind, I understand. Thought you meant there was placenta feasting in the documentary.

Yes, I did watch that doc and liked it very much. It did make me even more afraid of hospitals though. I am not afraid of hospitals in general, had my share of visits for surgery and out patient procedures over the years. I think it has a place but just not into birthing there.

It would be cool if there were just birthing centers where you could pick whatever birth you wanted from water birth to a typical hospital birth but all that went on there was birthing. I don't like the mixing of sick people with newborn babies and birthing moms.

The hospital is just down the street from our birthing center should we need it.

feel like w/placentophagy (and natural birth etc) that there is most definitely a time and place for it but that orthonatalism (i made that up) inre the best most appropriate way to have a baby is as corrosive to the idea of women's health as say banning birth control (may have overstated that a bit but u get the idea)

that is, if a lady wants to have her baby at home but can't, or is worried, or w/e, then ok! we'll do it at the hospital, you still take a baby home, a winner is you

nb this is directed at no one in particular

GBX I think I get and agree with what you're saying. My friend I was talking about in earlier wound up being really stressed out about things not going the way she'd planned at home and thinks that mental state prob contributed negatively to the whole experience. I will probably end up going either the home birth or midwife led birthing center route myself one day but recognize that sometimes things wind up happening not where or how we expect them too and think that those situations should be entered into with as open a mind as possible should they occur.

So, we had a baby shower for one of the PIs at work recently and were gabbing over some cake when the topic of water births came up because one of the women there (who happens to be English) had had two. The three doctors I was sitting next to (all pediatricians and women and mothers) were all completely horrified by the idea and started saying some pretty ill-informed things about non-traditional births but it wasn't really the time or place to get into it so I just sort of sat there and was perplexed and slightly annoyed for a while.

I like choices. I was really bummed out when it looked like we didn't have any and I was going to have to birth at one of the hospitals around here. Then when we found a mid-wife who did home births, the idea of birthing at home while preferred was not ideal to me. The logistics of where to put the birthing pool, privacy. Then she was the only mid-wife and I didn't really click with her at all, I didn't feel I could have complete faith in her. So finding the birthing center we are using and loving the mid-wife was pretty amazing for us. The center is new, they had a birth there already and all went well.

In my family there is a long tradition of home birthing. My great-aunt was a preemie, born at home swaddled in wool and surrounded by water bottles for several weeks. This was in the early 40's. She survived. My grandfather and a cousin of my grandmother's delivered my dad. I don't know why there wasn't a mid-wife or doctor. My grandmother tore and didn't even know it. Several weeks later she saw a physician and was repaired. She said there was no real pain, just discomfort. I went EEK! But I tend to follow her high pain threshold so in a way, it became an inspiring story of sorts.

I have found that being pregnant seems to be a green light for hearing any birthing story anyone should happen to want to tell. In Baltimore a really friendly woman sat next to us at a restaurant and said twice,"My son was so big he almost tore my asshole!" It's been interesting, I have heard all sorts of stories both hospital and home birth. I try and practice non-focused awareness. Yes, I am aware that unexpected and unplanned things can happen but my focus is on what I want first and foremost. Should something out of the plan arise then I'll deal with it.

hmm, yeah, placentas and the hippy things you can do with them. I had placenta smoothies after Molly. I read all the things about how it can really help with vitamins, iron etc. and that humans are about the only mammal that doesn't eat it's own placenta. I spoke to the midwife who was completely unphased by it and got one of her colleagues to forward me a placenta smoothie recipe. She even prepared the placenta for me getting rid of the yukky bits you can't use and left it in the fridge in a disposable kidney bowl. I was a little grossed out about the texture but that was all. Chris refused to have anything to do with it so I had to prepare them all myself.

GBX, I totally agree with you. Birth whatever way you're comfortable with, I just wish it was easier for women to be completely informed about birth, rather than having barriers put in the way. Actually I don't think you can really force someone to have a natural birth if they don't want one, the fear factor etc. that inhibits natural births would kick in and interventions would be needed. I guess there's always the fast labours where things happen too quickly but that happens anyway.

Tera, sounds like you've got a very good philosophy for birth. I purposely didn't write a birth plan with Aidan's birth as I didn't want to count my chickens, get hung up on anything and then get upset and angry if it didn't go that way. I wanted as hands off as possible but was willing to go with the flow. The midwife was keen for me to work with her on a birth plan second time round and I was a bit resistant until I realised that she just wanted to know what I wanted in an ideal world, so that she knew what she needed to do or not do in advance.

i think childbirth is one of the major breakdowns in a social medicine society. my sister-in-law was literally mocked and degraded by the nurses because she was having trouble and a lot of pain trying to breastfeed. Stuff like "oh look shes crying. Stop being such a wimp.' I can def see why people go with midwives. My sis-in-law paid for a private hospital for her second kiddo.

Vicky - did you notice a difference in healing or energy levels after with the 2nd baby and placenta eating as compared to the first? I find it totally fascinating and I just don't know if I could bring myself to do it.

my umbilical cord and placenta were squirreled away by someone or other to store the stem cells deep underground in Florida.

Is that cord blood banking?

Vicky, did benefit from eating your placenta in all the ways they said?

E, yes.

I watched The Business of Being Born and am all for natural birth where possible, but one thing that I think gets unfairly left out of the "medicalization of childbirth" narrative is that mothers and babies almost never die in childbirth anymore as a result. I mean you know, institutionalized medicine is evil until we need it.

Hurting, I think the whole backlash against medicalised birth is that the medics get so obsessed about the statistics of saving lives that they don't look at the implications for the people who have uncomplicated births. It doesn't have to be either/or, and I'd hope that no natural birth supporters would feel that appropriate medicalisation of birth to save a life shouldn't be offered/given, but for the small % of lives saved there is an awful lot of knock on effect to everyone else and it doesn't have to be like that.

e.g. going overdue - there is a small chance that the placenta becomes less efficient once a woman goes 2 weeks past her due date. This can be monitored to ensure that placenta and baby are fine and induction can be offered to the mother. Unfortunately in many places this has turned into a policy not of monitoring but of not letting mothers get to two weeks past their due dates and almost forcing induction on them, which increases the probability of interventions hugely. Babies are born before they're ready, mothers go through brutal labours because of high levels of artificial hormones, forceps, ventouse, c-sections are commonplace following inductions, all of which have implications on breastfeeding, mother and baby's well being, but it's all fine in the medics eyes because everyone's alive.

Sorry for the rant, especially when you're all for natural birth, it's something I feel very strongly about.

Anyway, placentas! It's really hard to say whether it made a difference. I definitely didn't feel worse after Molly, I had a few weepy moments but then hormones are totally all over the place. I don't think I felt as blue as after Aidan but I did have to stay in hospital for 4 days after he was born as he needed IV antibiotics. I think it might have helped with iron levels definitely. I wasn't anemic during A's pregnancy but was with Molly. Post partum I look much more healthy in pics after Molly, in photos a couple of days after A I looked grey but I seemed to have more energy and definitely had better colour after Molly.

Tera, I'm sure your midwife has mentioned it but have you read up on delayed cord clamping and natural third stages?

Vicky, I have been reading up on it... have not discussed it yet, next visit.

Well our experience went like this: wife's water broke but labor wasn't starting. We basically had the option of waiting the night before starting pitocin. We waited a few hours, nothing was happening and we decided to go with pitocin, knowing that there wasn't a very strong chance labor was going to progress fast enough on its own at that point. After 24 hours she was only at 5cm and something was keeping the baby from descending further, and she was also running a fever, and at that point it's pretty much policy that they do a c-section. We weren't happy about this of course - it was the last thing we wanted. But it turned out that the baby's cord had been wrapped around its neck twice, and while that wouldn't necessarily have made natural birth impossible, it would have made it much more difficult and dangerous.

The recovery was, of course, harder than from a regular birth. But my wife was still able to breastfeed fine with a little effort, and, I am quite sure she and the baby bonded.

I guess what I am saying is that after the experience I came away a little more glad that medical childbirth exists as an option and a little less suspicious of it.

We have had a couple of friends who prepared home births and wound up with c-sections as well. One of them told us about how she told her husband "I'm so disappointed" and he said "I'm not, because if this wasn't available, you and the baby might have died."

I mean we're very lucky really, because we can have the best of both worlds, and I absolutely agree you should do everything you can to have a natural birth as long as you're not high-risk. We hope to do whatever we can not to repeat our experience. But even if you're not high-risk, things often don't go according to plan no matter how much you do to try to make it work. And if something does go wrong, you're lucky to have medicalized childbirth as a backup.

"Well our experience went like this: wife's water broke but labor wasn't starting. We basically had the option of waiting the night before starting pitocin. We waited a few hours, nothing was happening and we decided to go with pitocin, knowing that there wasn't a very strong chance labor was going to progress fast enough on its own at that point. After 24 hours she was only at 5cm and something was keeping the baby from descending further, and she was also running a fever, and at that point it's pretty much policy that they do a c-section. We weren't happy about this of course - it was the last thing we wanted. But it turned out that the baby's cord had been wrapped around its neck twice, and while that wouldn't necessarily have made natural birth impossible, it would have made it much more difficult and dangerous.
"

Hurting this is EXACTLY what happened when I Henry. I'm about 90% sure he wouldn't have made it vaginally.

Hurting otm in general, I think.

When my mom had me the cord was wrapped around my neck too. Not sure what they wound up doing but she didn't have to have a c-sec in the end. I think they cut it from around my neck while I was still making my way out? Hmmm. That doesn't sound right but I'm sure that's what she said.

An acquaintance of mine lost her baby at a birthing center last year.

Fortunately Texas is among the strictest in the country when it comes to licensing mid-wives. That could be why there are only two in this area.

The truth is, babies do not always make it at birthing centers or hospitals.

I was born at a hospital, placenta previa and the doctor was not arriving. My mother almost died and so did I. My sister was a c-section because she was 9lbs but my mother was in the hospital for a week and a half after due to an infection unrelated to birthing, just caught while at the hospital. There were successful home births on my dad's side of the family. This has all influenced my decision.

our kid was born at a midwifery center within a hospital, really seemed like the best of both worlds. the birth was completely done/overseen by the midwives but there were doctors/nurses around in case of an emergency which made me feel a little more secure.

xpost yeah we had a friend lose a baby in a normal hospital birth too -- a cord situation that just wasn't foreseeable I guess. There are always risks. I guess I just think (1) the degree to which medicalized childbirths has saved lives outweighs the harm it has done and (2) I'm also glad that there's now a pushback against the harm it has done, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, as it were.

my only real issue with all of this is the lack of education about options re: natural childbirth. like my wife is really into researching things so she read tons of books/articles/etc and was curious enough about the midwife option that we looked into it, but most people who don't take the initiative are going to be pushed into the medicalized birth scenario without knowing about any other options. i guess it's on them to do the work and educate themselves but i do wish that it was more of a default that all of the various possibilities and the pros and cons of each were explained to everyone.

a midwifery center within a hospital-This would be ideal! But when we asked about it here, the doctor looked at us like we were crazy. He just said we don't offer anything like that in a tone that suggested he thought it was silly for us to even ask.

That existed at our hospital, but we sort of botched applying for it because how to do it was unclear (you had to find a practitioner/midwife who worked with them FIRST, and like way in advance).

Anyway, it wouldn't have mattered, obv.

our kid was born at a midwifery center within a hospital, really seemed like the best of both worlds. the birth was completely done/overseen by the midwives but there were doctors/nurses around in case of an emergency which made me feel a little more secure.

― congratulations (n/a), Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:38 AM (50 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There is a really famous and supposedly great one at one of the hospitals here in Boston. I really wanted to work there actually. I do find that model of care really appealing for a lot of reasons including the ones that N/A mentioned.

if i can shift to a different topic: as mentioned above, we've been having trouble getting the kid (almost 20 months now) to say "please." she uses it occasionally but usually, when we ask her to say please, she either gets mad or just stops asking for the thing she was asking for. the other day she was throwing a fit about it so my wife put her in a time-out. later she was posting on a different parenting-focused message board about her frustration with the situation and people were very critical, saying kids her age are too young to learn from disciplining and so it's cruel to use time-outs on them. this seems weird to me, because i'm not sure what else we're supposed to do when she's misbehaving. these are very brief time-outs, like a few minutes, and my judgement is that she is smart enough to understand the concept, but maybe i'm wrong?

I cannot fucking understand the thinking behind the idea that time-outs are "cruel."

I mean IDK, maybe developmentally 20 mos really is too young to *get it*?

i think they're fine. and kind of necessary to allow a cooling off period. it can be hard for anybody to think straight in the middle of a whine-tantrum fest.

"just stops asking for the thing she was asking for"

hey, problem solved..

i think i can be good to let the kid chill out on his/her own sometimes -- we haven't had to do it too often though. But it can be literally just a minute and our daughter will do a complete 180 mood-wise. i don't know whether she "gets" it necessarily (she's 2 1/2 now), but it helps the situation.

Cruel? I'm still trying to figure out time-outs are punishment in the first place.

Beeps has to sit on the stairs while we count off her minutes (all FIVE of them) with this multi-colored light thing that looks like it fell out of some roadside assistance kit. I've told her, "In my day, we had to stand in the CORNER." and she's all "How did you get to the corner when all your toys were in the way?"

lol

n/a: I agree, a birthing center within a hospital is the best of both worlds.

pplains: hahahaha

My friend had a weird situation when her daughter picked up the following phrase at daycare:"How sad, how saaaaaaaaaad, you make bad choices."

She walked into her daughter's room one day because she was so quiet and the three year old had moved all her toys to one side of the room and left a lonely stuffed animal frog in a corner and was pointing at "Frog" saying,"How sad, Frog, how saaaaaaaaaaaad, you make bad choices." She called me at work all freaked out to ask if I thought she should have a conference. I said, by all means, that sounded creepy. So she did and everyone at the daycare denied ever teaching anything remotely like that.

My friend is extremely thorough so for weeks she worked hard to unravel the mystery. Meanwhile, her child was pretty much policing herself by repeating the phrase before she'd do something wrong. Then she started inserting it into her parent's conversations. When my friend said she forgot to pick up snacks at the grocery store, phrase was repeated, when her dad said he should have cut the grass because he found out rain was predicted for days, phrase repeated. Drove everyone nuts, but worked for her. She was very well behaved. My friend ended up hearing another child at the daycare say this and it turned out one of the student workers who was very Christian had been saying this to the children.

"How sad, Frog, how saaaaaaaaaaaad, you make bad choices."

Holy crap that is the cutest thing in the world. A little creepy maybe but also really freaking cute.

Teehee...

so my grandma is 101, has pneumonia and is probably not gonna live for much longer - family (some of whom have not been together in the same room for 20+ years) are all gathering. my daughter is 4. taking her to the hospital to visit with everybody would probably be too heavy/weird... right?

i think it would be good. you don't have to stay too long. it will be heavy and weird but i think that's good to see, so she can understand why people get all serious when they talk about your grandma. i mean, i don't know, but that's my first instinct.

she might be confused by it, but it's kind of inevitable that a four-year-old will experience some things she is confused by

Tough call. I probably wouldn't have taken my daughter at that age, but it's YMMV territory.

I was there the other night and my grandma's not hooked up to any machines, no tubes, she's in a private room, etc. so it's not as crazy as it could be. otoh she is 101, and really sick and looks it.

She is definitely aware that people and things die, but we haven't really had the big discussion about death yet.

I dunno, I'm of two minds about it.

my only real reference is being taken to the hospital to visit a dying neighbor (an old woman who had always been very nice to me) when I was 12. And that was a really heavy but positive experience - otoh 12 is very different from 4.

My parents kept us out of my grandmother's sickness and eventual death from cancer as much as possible. Even at her funeral, we were put into the church nursery to play until the adults were done, and I was...8 years old? So I have no memory of losing her, just that there was a person in my life for a while and then she stopped being in it, but I don't remember feeling any sadness or loss or marking the occasion.

So from my point of view, take her, give her the memories, let her see some amount of grieving responses, because, I don't know, it seems honest?

it's not the grieving I'm concerned about really. and it's not even the hospital per se (she loves hospitals! lol) ... I guess really my only concern is that she'll be freaked out by how my grandma actually looks right now, on the edge of death after a really long life. like visually she mind find it alarming/scary. I dunno.

Was she close to her? If not, she might be a little confused but in a way that would eventually be positive.

I would do it with my five-year-old if the relative was distant. If she was seeing someone she had been close to so near to death, maybe it would be a different story.

close = eh, not really. I mean by the time she could walk/talk my grandma was already nearing 100 and fairly senile. We've taken her for brief visits and she knows who her great grandmother is and where she lives etc but no I don't think there's a real emotional bond there.

My parents always seemed to think we would find things scary, like knowing the dog was sick, or seeing an ailing relative who was already jaundiced or dying or w/e. But it was never the things they expected that freaked us out? You just can't know, I guess. Still would take her?

also kinda wonder if I will be taking shit from my relatives for bringing a 4 yo, tbh. Like I might be okay with it, some of them might think I'm being a terrible parent. But whatever, that's a minor concern.

xp Agree I think it's hard to know what's going to freak out a child at four (or for that matter eight). I'm inclined to think it'd be okay either way, but I don't think you would be sheltering her terribly if you didn't take her. She'll get plenty of opportunity to learn about mortality ya know.

tbf I do have all those bodies stashed in the basement

there is that.

okay well looks like we're going over this afternoon if my wife can find a sub at the co-op

that went pretty well actually. Veronica was not weirded out or scared or anything. she wandered in and out of grandma's room, asked some questions, played with the relatives etc. later in the evening after we'd gotten home she recommended that the doctors give grandma "special medicine" because "we don't want her to die" at which point I had to inform her that grandma was not going to get better and was in all likelihood going to die and that that was okay, sometimes when you're that old people don't get better. this didn't seem to upset her at all (mostly cuz I don't think she really has a concept of what death is at this point).

and then my grandma died this morning around 6:30am. haven't talked to Veronica about it yet (since I'm at work) but I'm sure there will be more explaining ahead of and during the funeral.

condolences, shakey

yeah, what do you say when someone passes away at such an old age?

Except "maybe they had wanted to live to be 102?"

I'm really sorry, shakes. But at least V got to meet her and have that memory, something that make a connection in the web of family, a shared thing. I'm glad she took it in stride.

man, intense

If she lives until 2109, she'll be able to say that she once met a relative born almost 200 years ago.

Sorry, Shakey.

Except "maybe they had wanted to live to be 102?"

lol yeah. people go when they're ready to go, in my experience. My EMT cousin was there and was talking about how he picks up old people all the time who are like "I'm ready to die! let's go!"

but thx for the kind words everybody. it has not been that intense, really.

Ok so anyone have any thoughts on dealing with family wanting to visit all the time when the baby is new?

Basically the main problem is this: for months before the baby was born, my mother was going on and on about how she'd come stay nearby for a week to help my wife once I go back to work. So, that happened, only she really wasn't much help at all. She held the baby some, which I guess at least gave my wife a break, but otherwise she mostly just talked, or talked on the phone, or did stuff on her laptop. She didn't do any of the cleaning she said she'd do, she wound up needing a lot of my wife's help for cooking the two times during the week that she actually did cook, and she actually left messes that we had to clean up, like she literally never even cleared her dishes after eating/drinking (incidentally it was kind of revelatory to realize just how little my mother cleans up after herself - she has always been that way and I've only gradually become aware of it). Meanwhile my wife is kind of stuck hanging out with her all day, and while they get along well, it winds up being difficult for her after a while.

Now my mom wants to come "help" again. I feel like I can't shatter my mom's illusion of helpfulness by telling her that it's not actually helpful or suggesting she not come again so soon. I also can't make my wife entertain my mom while I'm at work. Sigh.

This happened to us & imo tell your mom to stay away, new fam prerogative trumps all & you can't handle company at this point

Tell your mom to stay away. If your choice is your wife entertaining someone over the age of 1 month old or your mom not feeling so "helpful" after already "giving so much for a whole week," you're going to have to pick the latter.

As it stands right now she is just going to come for two days and not even be there the whole time, so we decided we can live with it. But I am going to have to learn to be more confrontational about this in the future.

perfectly reasonable to send up a non-specific "we need our own space for awhile" signal

^^^

my wife's mom barely lasted an entire weekend. my mom was probably more helpful but left when the toilet broke lol.

it was really bizarre when she was here for a week, like "how can you keep insisting on how helpful you want to be and yet be so completely oblivious as to how unhelpful you are actually being?"

"AHM JUST FINISHIN' THIS MAGAZINE!!!"

(yeah, been there)

I could probably write a 10000 word diatribe about relatives who get in the way after a new birth. It was worse with the first one, but they didn't exactly learn any lessons by the time the second one came along.

eesh that sucks. we lucked out, my mom was amazing in those early months. i remember the panic I felt the day after we got home from the hospital with sylvie, and then my mom shows up, and everything is OK. awwww.

oddly, her mom, from whom we didn't expect anything, has been a total lifesaver. Comes when we actually need help, never overstays her welcome, makes good but unobtrusive company. Maybe it's because it's the emotionally cool, unneedy ones who are more capable of actually being there for you in a true sense instead of "helping" for some kind of self-affirmation.

UPDATE: the kid who I suspect has some kind of developmental disability/autism/Idunnowhat, his parents are now looking into getting him into yet another preschool (this would be his 4th in two years). The mother was expressing some surprise the other day when it was pointed out that said kid does not engage in any imaginative play - like, at all. which is unusual for a 4 yo.

*sigh*

parental denial with things like autism is huge - my wife deals with it all the time as a sped teacher, and it's not always the parents you'd expect. I mean you get poor immigrant parents who have no idea what autism even is, but you also get highly educated parents who actually honestly still believe that their five year old who does not speak a word will "catch up" by "learning from his peers."

BTW only half-illustrative of the same point, but Leonard Lopate I believe has a child with autism, and I once heard him argue with a medical expert about the link between vaccines and autism on air!

i have a cousin who's got twins. his brother works with autistic kids and he has thought for a long time they show a lot of the early signs of autism. they're about 7 now. i don't really know what specific things he's seeing, but it's true that they can't focus on anything, they're very asocial, etc.. but their mother absolutely REFUSES to consider it. the very few times anyone in the family has broached the subject she has frozen up, shut down the conversation. the kids go to some kind of experimental school where there aren't any lessons or rules and which doesn't believe in "pigeonholing" kids, even those with autism. there are no assessments like that. in their eyes, every kid is just unique and that's that. i have a lot of time for that point of view and i do think that people's minds are way overmedicalized these days but these kids' mother's total refusal to even have them assessed by a pro is incredibly frustrating because it's impossible to even have the conversation. and the concerned brother is frustrated too because he says the longer you wait to deal with autism the harder it gets. GAH.

We saw the midwife today and talked about our fantasy birth plans! Planning our birth dinner. I learned how to time contractions and got teary-eyed, We're at 36 weeks now!

Soon soon soon! So excited for you guys!

We installed the car seat today...took 40 minutes and it was work out in the hot, Texas sun. Felt uber rewarding to get it in. J. did the most of the labor, I just read instructions and looked at illustrations and tried to make sense of it all.

sending you all my very best wishes.

car seats still stress me out, 2 1/2 years later.

I don't know why installing the car seat was so stressful but it was! The instructions weren't exactly easy to understand, I would read each step then look at the car seat, then read it again out loud and think what are they talking about! There were so many straps that we didn't use which made me think I was doing something wrong. Then once we thought it was finished, there was still too much play in it's movability, but we figured it out. I feel a little more like a dad already.

Thank you!

Are you installing without inbuilt LATCH system?

I saw something about LATCH in the instruction book. What does that mean exactly? We used the shoulder and lap belt and anchored it to the floor of the Jeep, per instructions. It was very stable after that.

Weirdly, I now find the car seat pretty simple to install, especially just the seat without the base with a normal seatbelt. I think a lot of what confused me was that there were instructions on installing it like four different ways, both with and without the base, and then like 20 diagrams of kinds of seatbelts you should or shouldn't install it with. I think most of the "shouldn't" ones were kinds that are probably only installed in like 1980s Saabs, but when I was ready to bring my baby home for the first time that was hard for me to see.

tera the LATCH system is standard on most 20XX model cars. Its basically a metal bracket hidden under the backs of back passenger seats that the infant/child carseat clips right on to. Super easy to install and uninstall. But yeah the whole using the seatbelt bit was v confusing.

Ah! Yeah we looked for that but the Jeep is an older model.

BROKEN ARM.

more to come

When Beeps was born, neither of our cars had the LATCH system. For awhile, she actually rode in the front seat of my 1998 Sonoma pick-up. I had to use the seat belt and one of these oh-so-very safe things:

http://www.seatbeltking.com/images/Child_Restraint_gated_buckle_SBK_ebay.jpg

At least I could turn the airbag off.

Though it wasn't the safest, I enjoyed our rides together in the morning where we could look at each other. I'd sing her a little song to the tune of "Eleanor Rigby":

On the way to daycare
Is where we're going now
On the way to daycare
We both will stay so strong.

(Hope nothing was serious Tracer. We went to a birthday party this weekend where a kid had a broken arm and let me tell you something, he was THE BAD ASS of the PLAYGROUND.)

uh oh broken arm!

I'm in peds clinic all week. so many WCCs. lemme know if I can snag u some swag, TH

WCC?

he's wearing a sling for the next two days until our appointment at the fracture clinic. he's so stoic that the doctors didn't think his arm was actually broken until they grudgingly did an x-ray. clean break about two inches below the shoulder. !!!!! he's pretty much fine but sleeping is tough. we load him up with ibuprofen before bed but it's still hard.

Awww, lil guy :/

eep, that sucks, my nephew had a broken arm and it was no fun.

& xps, i think installing a car seat is stressful because on ours there are all these warnings that basically say "FAILURE TO INSTALL CORRECTLY WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE DEATH" or something.

WCC?

well child check

ah! Do you get to do WBV too? BABBIES!

OUCH!Speedy recovery Tracer...poor kid, so brave.

maxed with a lil 9mo this morning iirc

and speedy recovery TH! when I was a ski patroller I had a kid come in after his mom was like he hasnt used his arm since crashing yesterday but refuses to endorse pain. sure enough, clean break.

and apparently the kid had broken an arm before and went FIVE DAYS before mom dragged him in. just had an incredible tolerance for pain. she naturally was like srsly this kid is nuts I'm not a horrible negligent parent he just doesn't complain

cf a fukkin nine year old (with no development issues) who had to be physically restrained by his mom and a nurse just to a g-d THROAT SWAB. literally screaming bloody murder for fifteen minutes, so shameful.

Culture was negative, oh how I lol'd

busting out of the quarantine but hey

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6212/7018682865_4969e12d5e_z.jpg

Tracer, your little trooper!

awww

Awwwww soooooo cute!

You guys, beware the kid who grows up content and happy, and doesn't hate her parents. She'll never move out. This may seem like a non-problem compared to heavier shit, but it's starting to create some real friction around here -- at least in my head.

ha, how old?

She'll be 24 in July.

hm, yeah, getting a bit old to be living at home imo. then again, isn't inter-generational living all the rage these days?
can't imagine having moved back in with my parents after college, and i have pretty much zero problems with them.

Aw man that kid is so adorable!

The boy started twisting some of the knobs on the new lawnmower and I pert near got misty-eyed.

Saw the midwife yesterday and nothing is going on. Our baby is sort of just casually hanging out and not packing up and preparing to move out. I feel like I have been rather casually going about things and haven't hit a nesting phase. Made a few lists for two days but that was it. I need that high energy nesting phase!

I was given some herbal pills, tea and have been doing an exercise. Anyone have any other tips to get things going? I will be 37 weeks on Thursday. EEK!

Off to bed, was told I need to get the insomnia under control because bad sleep leads to bad labor and hard birth.

hey *tera, this may be difficult advice to take but I think the best thing is to go about your business. things will kick off when they kick off. your body knows what it's doing better than your brain does! so just let it do its thing. this unique period of anticipation will soon give way to a whole different thing so soak it up while you can. (and yes, sleep is good!)

Isn't a good sexing session meant to be good for getting things moving?

What Tracer says. Apparently in France they give you a due 'period' to prevent the expectation a due date gives. Kick back and enjoy the last few weeks of having your baby squirming inside of you, it sounds strange but you'll miss it once they're here. Once they're out you have to share them but right now you've got him/her all to yourself. do some pampering, get a pedicure, read books, watch crappy tv, revel in only having to worry about yourself! I really really wish I'd done a belly cast. It can seem a little self indulgent, and what do you do with it afterwards, but I really wish I'd done one. That or had some really nice photos done that I could look back on.

Your baby will let your body know when it's ready to be born, and that's what you want if you want as natural/uninterventional birth as possible. It could be that you go into labour tomorrow, it could be another 5 weeks away so don't get hung up on waiting and getting impatient. Easy for me to say though! I got very impatient with Aidan, eat tons of pineapple, drank loads of raspberry leaf tea, went for long walks, I don't think it made any difference! I was far more laid back about it with Molly and enjoyed my last month way more even though I had a three year old to look after as well as myself.

You guys, beware the kid who grows up content and happy, and doesn't hate her parents. She'll never move out.

I plan to adhere to the adage of my parents: "when you're 18, you're out of the house." tbf I couldn't wait to get out of there...

also from the "complaining about other people's shitty parenting styles" files:

acquaintance of ours has apparently been raising her kid according to some parenting philosophy that foregoes ALL praise or criticism of the child. *rmde*. the kid is 4 and barely talks.

lol, wth are you supposed to say to your kid then, "Yes, that is a drawing that you made." "Yes, I see that you have thrown your spaghetti on the floor and that you're now throwing a shitfit"

Thanks, guys!!! I do love this advice. These days do feel special indeed.

kid's new thing is screeching/screaming really high-pitched and loudly as a fun game. we've been trying to teach her about inside voice and sometimes it works but the screeching is just so dang fun.

Thanks, guys!!! I do love this advice. These days do feel quite special.

cf a fukkin nine year old (with no development issues) who had to be physically restrained by his mom and a nurse just to a g-d THROAT SWAB. literally screaming bloody murder for fifteen minutes, so shameful.

Culture was negative, oh how I lol'd

― catbus otm (gbx), Monday, March 26, 2012 12:46 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

gbx, i've watched kids screeching and kicking and swinging at their parents when their name gets called at the pediatrician. absolute terror. part of me is sympathetic since most kids are poked with a bunch of needles every time they go there, part of me is amazed they my kids haven't pulled this shit yet and part me is thoroughly entertained.

you just haven't lived until you've sat on the chest of a 6-year-old as their parent puts 'em in a head lock while attempting to get a nasopharyngeal swab.

currently in a lecture on how to do the pediatric physical exam

so many pro tips

I've been through something similar with a Great Dane, if that counts.

How do you all feel about Alicia Silverstone feeding her kid straight from her mouth. I don't really see what the big deal is. It's not like she said that she does it all the time or that it's the only way the child eats but people seem to be freaking out about it. I'm a lot more offended that she named the poor kid Bear Blu than I am that she feeds him like a bird.

wait what @ all that

lol. does she chew the food up and then deposit it in his mouth? that would be weird. oh alicia!

Yes! There is a video. Hang on . . .

No, E. That's quite all right.

LOLing at this image of Alicia Silverstone with a bird's beak feeding her baby!

No, E. That's quite all right.

― pplains, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:16 PM (21 seconds ago)

I honestly don't think it's that bad. I mean if she did it exclusively. Oh, I don't know. It doesn't seem to warrant some of the reactions I've seen though:

http://www.thekindlife.com/post/home-video-breakfast-with-baby-bear

Celebrities: They're Just Like BIRDS

The kid is adorable btw. That's her website so there are some positive comments but the people posting in other places I've seen it have mostly acted like she's deranged.

Certainly sounds deranged to me.

srsly what's the rationale behind it

it might not be "bad" but it seems pretty unhygienic and weird, haven't watched the video or read anything about it. going to assume the rationale is along the lines of "brings the mother closer to the child"

i dunno, guess i shouldn't be judgmental, there's probably no harm except maybe transmitting gross adult disease and germs directly to your child, but really the publicizing of it and putting videos of it online is what skeeves me out the most

x-post

idk I think she's just sort of out there. I doubt it's harmful though. She never said it was something she does all the time or anything which is how people seem to be taking it. *shrugs*

harmful? eh probably not (unless she keeps it up through age 5 or something). gross? yeah. publicizing it? gtfo you weirdo celebrity

n/a pretty sure this is nothing to do with bonding. shes just being a weirdo.

harmful? eh probably not (unless she keeps it up through age 5 or something). gross? yeah. publicizing it? gtfo you weirdo celebrity

― You big bully, why are you hitting that little bully? (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:46 PM (20 minutes ago)

^^^ eggs ackley

i thought this was a pretty good article

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/07/why_parents_hate_parenting.html

The guy was in a relationship without any kids, and he felt neglected. What the hell did he think was going to happen when he had kids? Daily oral?

Whoah haha!

So maybe someone has advice on this. K is about 6 weeks old now. She tends to cluster feed before bed, and then want to eat every 2-3 hours throughout the night. Doesn't seem entirely abnormal, but my wife hasn't been getting sleep. We started a thing where I give her one late night bottle to give my wife a stretch of sleep. At first this seemed to work, but last night K was fussy pretty much throughout the night, even after she drank almost four ounces from a bottle (previously enough to knock her out for a while).

We've been trying to do all kinds of things to set a nighttime mood before bed. H gives her a bath in the evening, we turn lights down, keep our voices down, etc. I rock K in the dark before putting her down, but she tends to fall asleep on me and then wake up the second I put her down.

Basically what I'm saying is that my wife can't keep waking up every two hours to feed her for 30+ minutes and then change her and then hold her for comfort (leaving maybe an hour to sleep out of every two). I can't give her more than one bottle a night, not only because I'm working a lot and need some sleep but because we were told it's not good to do this early. We don't want to let K cry without picking her up this early. But I also don't want H to lose it.

Do we just keep at it and hope that eventually K will learn to calm down at night? Do we need to change our approach?

Is she sleeping during the day much?

Yesterday she did not, and yet barely slept during the night. I guess it could be "overstimulation" because she had gone with H to the in-laws during the day, but I find that concept illusive -- i.e. what does and doesn't "overstimulate" them

For the most part, though, I don't know -- I'd have to ask H.

IME regular naps during the day are essential to things working at night. You don't have to go full-on Gina Ford but if you can, try to work toward a two-hour nap in the morning and a two-hour nap in the afternoon, and the night time stuff will improve. YMMV of course.

I liked that TLP piece for the most part btw. I came to the conclusion before I had K that questions like "Why isn't X making me happy?" or "Why am I not happy?" were pretty much a poisonous line of thinking.

xpost hmm interesting. Sort of counterintuitive, since I'd think her being up more during the day would make her more tired at night. I will transmit this information to H.

I think that'll be true once she gets older but at this age they need a lot of sleep, they need big long naps, and if they can get into a groove with them it'll help make night time less of a big thing, and more like just another part of the daily sleep routine

our kids were p much nighttime hell for the first couple of months, then things sorta normed out in an ok-ish way, but "night things" are one of the hardest things for parents to generalize about I think.

she actually didn't get naps yesterday due to doting grandpa, apparently, so that could explain the rough night

guys, having a kid is awesome and i love it.

evie locked herself in the bathroom yesterday and my wife had to call our landlord to get them to send the maintenance guy to let her out. fortunately the bathroom window was open so he could climb through and unlock the door and meanwhile my wife fed evie teddy grahams through the window. apparently evie was pretty happy about the whole situation.

hahaha

awwww

guys dont resist this

http://www.ourbabynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Baby5.jpg

thats a miracle blanket btw

we got one of those when evie was little and i didn't do much for us but i know a lot of other people on here swear by them

babby burrito

we used one pretty late on beeps because she was a hey im going to sleep for 5 minutes at a time suckerz type kid. she would sleep 8 hours in this thing. We started early with henry and even now, long after he grew out of it, he loves sleep.

We used a miracle blanket and she really liked it, for about two weeks. Then she started to hate having her arms tucked in. IDK though, maybe I should try it again.

the baby burrito is cute as hell though

how fucking cute is that burrito baby btw

woah

when she used to hiccup in it and the burrito would tremble a little, oh man

yeah miracle blanket is truly a miracle. really worked for us in those first few months.

ADORABLE

Hurting, I can't remember, are you co-sleeping? Can your wife manage to feed lying down? But yes, what Tracer said, sleep begets sleep.

Not co-sleeping. We keep the co-sleeper next to the bed but with the mesh 'wall' up because we can't anchor it to our bed and we don't want to risk her falling out. She does eat in bed, but at some point in the night my wife takes over being the one to take her out of the co-sleeper and change her.

are you changing her because she's got a dirty nappy or is it just wet? I quickly realised that only changing dirty ones was key as it really wakes them up and it takes ages to settle them again.

In case you didn't find any safe co-sleeping guidelines - http://www.nct.org.uk/parenting/sleeping-safely-your-baby It's been a godsend for me, I couldn't tell you how many times she wakes up in the night as I hardly ever wake up properly, I just latch her back on and go to sleep. We've got a superking bed now but started off with a co-sleeper, tbh she never lay in the co-sleeper she was always in the bed with me in the crook of my arm. I found that I didn't move around at all, and neither did she.

Another co-sign on the miracle blanket. Well worth sticking with in our experience.

is the miracle blanket the same as any swaddling blanket? My sister swore by swaddling, Aidan hated it and it's not recommended for co-sleeping so I never tried it with Molly.

are you changing her because she's got a dirty nappy or is it just wet? I quickly realised that only changing dirty ones was key as it really wakes them up and it takes ages to settle them again.

In case you didn't find any safe co-sleeping guidelines - http://www.nct.org.uk/parenting/sleeping-safely-your-baby It's been a godsend for me, I couldn't tell you how many times she wakes up in the night as I hardly ever wake up properly, I just latch her back on and go to sleep. We've got a superking bed now but started off with a co-sleeper, tbh she never lay in the co-sleeper she was always in the bed with me in the crook of my arm. I found that I didn't move around at all, and neither did she.

― vickyp, Friday, March 30, 2012 4:23 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

generally we avoid waking her to change her, instead timing it around feedings and when she has already woken herself up

As far as sleeping in the bed, I am a little concerned b/c my wife IS excessively tired.

In re swaddling I did read at least one expert saying don't do arms-in after a few weeks. We didn't really need the guidance though b/c around a few weeks she started fighting the swaddling blanket and also gaining more arm control such that she wasn't waking herself up with her arms.

Re. your wife's tiredness, is she napping whenever the baby naps during the day? It's a hard thing to do when there's stuff that needs doing but it's so important, and her well being is way more important than the house being tidy etc. I did it first time round but with the second it's obviously not so easy and I found it much harder not having that extra sleep.

oh and I recommend dropping diaper changes to only changing when she's dirty, it makes a difference to falling asleep times, even if she's already awake for feeds etc.

Swaddling babies is huge in my family. I just finished making a swaddling blanket out of muslin for our little girl.

Every time a neighbor or friend started up about their babies not sleeping my mom, grandmother and/or aunt would all say swaddle. They would pair that with boiling oats in milk or water then straining the oats out. Babies can't have that drink until they are a few months old though.

We were all swaddled as babies and I guess it was uber comfy and soothing because it went on too long. I could only get to sleep being wrapped up tightly and would ask my mom to "tuck me in" which meant for her to swaddle me. This went on until I started kinder, yeah, too long.

i def needed to be swaddled in order to sleep---my mom told me that if one of my arms got loose i would just go nuts, and as soon as it got tucked in i would pass the fuck out

also fwiw lil 6wk babbies ought to be sleeping like 16-20 hours a day iirc

right, with the little ones there is no night, there is only Zuul

white noise recording + arms-in swaddling ftw

at least for tonight

That's awesome that you and the kid are already recording white noise together.

xD

uh,

XD

Nice! How did the daytime naps go?

So Abby's been taking her naps late in the day now. She used to nap from like 11-1 or so, now she won't go down before 3 pm. Her naps are usually between 2-3 hours and if she sleeps until 5 or 6, things get particularly challenging at bedtime.

My wife works a lot of weekends, so last night I had to put both of the kids to bed. Joey nodded off around 8:30, but Abby was unstoppable. I'd get her down on the pillow and start in with her bottle, but she'd pry herself back up and go run around the room and play with her toys. I played with her intermitantly while I worked at getting her down until about 10, but the next thing I knew, it was 11 o'clock and my wife was yelling upstairs "Honey, I'm home"-type shit.

FUCK! I had fallen asleep before my baby and who the hell knows, she could have found a way to really hurt herself. I looked around in a panic and didn't see her. Finally found her dozing like a lamb in her little play tent and spirited her back into bed before my wife came upstairs.

I feel like the absolute worst fuck-up. When I watch my kids I'm not drinking or anything. I'm just an exhausted-assed dad who can't keep up with a 16-month-old girl.

yeah, the dreaded late nap, i feel you on that one

well that lasted about a night. Last night she pretty much didn't sleep for more than 10 mins from 8pm to almost 1am. White noise, swaddling, rocking, shhing, feeding, didn't matter.

yes yes but what of the daytime napping

Little late here, but I wholeheartedly recommend the Miracle Blanket. We swaddled our son with that plus another blanket until he was about 4 months (at which point he would just start breaking out in the middle of the night and screaming and he'd outgrown the co-sleeper anyway--on to the crib and his own room at that point.)

idk, she struggles mightily in the miracle blanket sometimes. I think it prevents her from pulling her knees up to release gas. the halo sleepsack thingy gives her a little more freedom of movement, but it also seems a bit less cool and breathable.

xp yeah daytime napping too. Everything.

whew, so it seems like maybe we're getting over some hump. Last night she slept for a four plus hour stretch, and tonight she went in her co-sleeper without a big fight. Just now she woke up and cried a little but she was easy to soothe back to sleep.

wtg babby

anyone have thoughts on alcohol (for parents) in the early months? I've had exactly three beers since she was born, which I drank during the day. I have this westmalle in the fridge that I'm kind of dying to crack open right now, but I'm afraid I'll be insufficiently alert to do my nighttime bottle/changing duties.

too late

You're probably fine having a beer or two. I drink moderately now and my parental adrenaline kicks in regardless when I have to get up and change a diaper in the middle of the night.

I do my best not get drunk anymore though. When my girl was littler, we had to take her to the hospital a few times, usually in the middle of the night. One of the first times, I had been drinking a little more than I should have been and it was really difficult for me to stay awake and on top of things in the ER. After that, I didn't drink at all for about a year.

Yeah, having the one strong beer went fine but was about the limit of what I'd want to do a diaper change under the influence of, let alone having to go to the hospital.

I didn't drink much during the babies, but more for the same reasons I didn't drink when I went skiing.

Just like my appetite for alcohol disappeared with higher altitudes and more physical exertion than what I was used to, after sitting up all night with an infant and then going to work the next day, I just wanted sleep and for once, I didn't need the bottle's help.

I will be 39 weeks this Thursday and still no nesting phase. If anything, there seems to be even more of an anti-nesting phase forming. There has been a complete drop in my energy level and I just want to sleep. The "nest", such as it is, will just have to do.

aw! so exciting.

the nest will be great! you will be great!

Thanks, Tracer :)

Now I am thinking that perhaps the lack of a nesting phase is due to having to go on the road soon after she is born.

At the start of my pregnancy I really enjoyed being in bed until week 16 or so. It has been feeling like those days again, so it's all coming full circle, winding down.

I have no real hunches or gut feelings as to when she'll decide to make her appearance and I am enjoying that. I always seem to have hunches or gut feelings about things and am usually right or have them so strongly I just feel I can count on them. But her arrival is a real mystery with no clues.

The due date doesn't seem to mean anything or weigh in more than any other day, maybe she will, maybe she won't. There were predictions she would come with the full moon but that came and went. Now there is a new moon prediction closer to her due date. She could arrive on my birthday which would be the best present ever. However, I love the idea of her turning what was a previously insignificant day into the most special day in my whole life.

It feels like she is running out of room and not liking feeling cramped. She goes back and forth between having her legs crossed and stretching them out to her side, rendering me completely lopsided every other hour.