Polyamory

my life is so weird sometimes

or ironic tooth loss

i dunno, it's been a weird couple of weeks

if anyone's ever fancied bumpin munchkins with me, dial 360-MIX-ALOT and kick them nasty thoughts

Poly, to me, always smacked a bit of one person getting all the cake, as it were, and everyone else just more or less putting up with the "arrangement" so they can at least keep the person they're shagging... but perhaps it is just a mindset I dont understand.

Which is why I find it all rather brain-breaking. I think the 2 girls are involved together somehow too... but I'm not sure... and one of the girls before this was a pretty normal well adjusted long-term relationships type, so god knows. Maybe hes like the hypno-toad in Futurama, and none will resist his demands. Or something.

It is an excuse for one person to have their cake and eat it too. It is the refuge of the emotionally selfish who doesn't mind hurting everyone around them except themselves.

Or, on the other hand, if you're that bored with a relationship that you want to start screwing around - sorry - bringing other people into it, then that relationship wasn't built on anything particularly strong in the first place.

DUD DUD DUD DUD DUD DUD DUD!!!

Not that I speak from experience either.

A couple of years ago, my husband and I had a girlfriend who lived in Germany, and who was involved with both of us -- again, we would see her a few times a year and all was very nice. We went to Venice together once. She dumped us in a particularly heartless manner. Plus, she was a Momus fan!

Kate nailed it from my own outside perspective, it always seemed to be one guy with an inflated sense of self-esteem and probably a too-big-dick and girls who did not have good opinions of themselves, who did a good job of seeming to be cool with everything, but in all the cases I witnessed someone was getting hurt and, away from the people in the relationship, was very obviously unhappy.

Frankly the whole thing smacks of immaturity to me.

ronan and i came up with a website the yesterday called "creaky finger"

Hell, why have a relationship in the first place, then!

The only regular poster I know of who can speak with any authority on this subject is Ms. Laura.

I have been a part of a poly relationship, and while it didn't work all that well, for a whole shedload of reasons, it's not something I wouldn't consider again. I'm honestly not bothered by my partner being someone else's partner as well, providing he/she is not an arsehole. I've known enough happy poly people/relationships to be aware that it can work, and over a long period of time too.

(special for Josh there)

I've had a tiny bit of firsthand experience and tons of secondhand experience with it. It isn't for me. The majority of the people I've known who seem to make it work are people I really can't stand, which makes it all pretty moot for me: if those are the personalities required to make it work, it really really isn't for me. (I'm not counting Our Ms L, since I don't really know her.)

(Almost cross-posted with Dan there. The ditto is to DDG.)

haha why do you think i revived this?!?!

since when do i have any say, especially if i "love" someone, in how that person lives their life, provided i don't feel like the way they need to live their life is trampling over my same.

I know it's just your take on it, jess, but this seems either vague enough as to not mean much ("... provided I don't feel ..." grants a lot of leeway) or just bizarre. In any long-term relationship, how X lives their life affects Y in many, many ways which don't trample Y's ability to live their life the way they want to.

That's all I was saying, I think -- compromise as opposed to a completely "do whatever you like as long as it doesn't threaten my well-being" sort of thing.

(Now I'm derailing this thread. Ignore me, actually, I should be writing my paper for tomorrow morning.)

"Honey, we can't go to Massachusetts, we might be attacked by a floating Gareth head."

Oh, I meant "Seattle is such a wacky place, surely FAPs could not out-wack her!" Her preference isn't east coast, it's north -- and although mine is south (basically, I want to live anywhere that has neither snow nor a Pacific Ocean), it's the northeast that I adamantly oppose.

??? ur, but the Pacific Ocean is not on the east coast.

second, "giving" for the sake of it = classic, but with expectation of even partial future repayment = dud.

1. Jess revives thread.

2. Somebody says "Only Ms Laura of anyone here can really talk about poly"

3. Jess replies "Why do you think I revived the thread?"

implication is J is now in a poly relationship. I think the implication is strong enough that it didn't need dot-joining and anyway this is a thread about polyamory *in theory* so if anyone doesn't want to give details that's up to them!

My sleep deprived brane is not processing things the way it should, and that's what I thought as well. Details are not necessary.

(I love how everyone is just talking like jess isn't going to come read this in a bit?)

In a polyamorous relationship aren't all 3 people (or more??) supposed to be in love with each other. Person A loves Person B. B loves C, C loves A...? I have nothing against it, really, but it seems like a rather rare situation that these people would all happen to love each other somewhat equally...

I have mentioned I had a friend in high school who didn't start dating until college - and his first relationship involved two other people - a new girlfriend and her at-the-time ex. He moved in with the two of them. He said he did things with her but he and the other dude were just like really close friends or something...

In the end, my friend married her and the other guy is - supposedly - out of the romantic picture.

I just finished my coffee, Larcole. It's obviously not helping me either!

By the way, by saying I think it would be a rare situation, I didn't mean to imply that I don't think it's possible...

I have observed a few of these relationships and found that it is RARELY a completely mutual arrangement. It is generally one partner that pushes for it and ends up reaping the "benefit", while the other partner is generally a more reserved type who has been convinced there is something wrong with them for not being immediately in agreement with it (or suggesting it themselves).

That said, I'm sure there are people out there who are honestly, genuinely making it work, but from what I've seen (admittedly not everything) polyamorous relationships are too tainted by insecurity (the very thing they think they are doing away with) for me to take seriously. Again, this is probably just the people I've met ...

On the other hand, I think an honest and open polyamorous relationship (especially if it's based on BEING IN LOVE rather than nymphozilla cock addiction) could be very quite wonderful, especially on wherein the love is shared mutually between "A, B, and C"...A loves B & C, B loves A & C, everyone's honest and straight-up. I've seen this work, and it can be a quite beautiful thing.

FoS, everything you talk about seems to be from a mono -> poly transition scenario. This is naturally a big step, and fraught with difficulties, but IME is not how most poly relationships start. It's much more usual that all parties at all stages know there is a poly-potential relationship going on, and things develop organically from there.

teach me to be subtle

Ms laura has talked abt this in quite a lot of detail in other threads. she does have periods where she doesn't post much etc so er, if its urgent or something, an email might be required etc.

I think I have the same sort of reaction as jess: the catholic in me would react against it but since I've buried that (but it is still there, deep in me) I think it is something i would consider if it ever came up.

Less snarkily, I think we've got a couple different styles of relationship on the table for which the word "polyamory" is used (ya got yer swingers, yer open relationships, yer threesomes and moresomes, yer dawgs n' doormats) so that it becomes pretty meaningless to say whether "polyamory" works or not. It's really only ever a question of whether people in a relationship (regardless of the numbers) are happy, confortable, and fulfilled in it.

At first I thought this read, "but ILM is not how most poly relationships start." And I was like, "WHAAA??? It's not???"

(jess, ILX being dicks if you ask for advice, unsurpising!)

i think this is disgusting and morally uncoscionable!

i think this is disgusting and morally unconscionable!

Because I am in a I AM SINGLE AND SAD ABOUT IT TOO mood, I think that poly people could at least have the decency not to make lonely people feel even *more* lonely. But this goes for mono people as well. IN FACT IT GOES FOR ALL PEOPLE. I am going to stick with the interweb.

The hardest thing abt *being* in a poly relationship I wd think is to have the self-esteem and confidence not to feel a bit rub when yr partner is off with s/one else and obviously happy about it and making COMPARISONS and agh headbreaking.

However, I can see positive things abt poly as well - I've seen people be extremely happy and more relaxed in their "relationships" when one person doesn't develop into the be-all-and-end-all - just simply, someone who you er... "dig". And I can see that as a healthy attitude to have.

Then again I am shunning company and party on Friday night so you probably should't listen to me as the healthy attitude type of person eh?

Er yeah, sorry about that Stars. I wasn't thinking straight, and my not posting anything on the thread must've made it sooo much better. I can be a total fuckwit at times.

yeah, the self-confidence thing was mostly the reason i revived - not that anything has really progressed yet - but being the type of guy i am, i don't tend to pull in massive amounts of the laydeez, so y'know, there are "no worries" on my end, but since for most of my (ha ha) adult life i have located the majority of my self-esteem and confidence in the undying affection of my partner ("nyeah nyeah...you can't have them") (which totally isn't healthy, btw!!) i am a bit worried about my already low low low LOW levels of uh self-esteem (and rather high levels of self-hate.)

This makes me so happy I can't describe it.

i mean nobodys asking where your car keys are

(TO SPELL IT OUT FOR EVERYONE JESUS PEOPLE)

BASICALLY SHE AND I BOTH DECIDED THAT WE SHOULD BE FREE TO EXPLORE NOT JUST CASUAL SEX BUT ALSO THE POSSIBILITY OF EXTRA RELATIONSHIPS (GOD THAT SOUNDS SO LAME), BUT THIS IS JUST A FREEDOM NOT A MANDATE OR EVEN A POSSIBILITY RIGHT NOW.

ONE TIME AT BAND CAMP...

jess had a threesome with Tatum O'Neal.

thats actually kinda cute

I love how if certain posters try to get advice or shoulders round these parts, everyone seems to feel that it's open season, as if we're robots. It'd be cool but it ain't true. Meanwhile, if jess was (fill-in-here-not-gonna-spell-it-out-which-posters-get-treated-like-drama-sadsacks) everyone would be horrified and running about with their hands in the air! I can't decide which is more annoying.

thank u ally

What's our favorite evening game?
"Baseball?" You're all wet!
"Let's swap partners" is the name
Suburban Roulette!

Where's my wife? Has anyone seen her?
Is she ring-a-dingin' with that swingin' set?
The other guy's wife is always greener
Suburban Roulette!

I love you madly, baby
So come on and hold me tight
But don't feel bad now, baby,
If I love your sister tomorrow night

Let's livin' up this dead room
There's life in this swinger yet
It's fun and games now in the bedroom
Suburban Roulette!

There's a new lady in my life
Wouldn't trade her for a bet
"That's no lady! That my wife!"
Suburban Roulette!

Your husband's just a grouch, dear
My wife's a hopeless square
There they are on the couch, dear
And they're just sitting there!

Let me borrow your comb, love
It's nearly 6 p.m., my pet
Your husband will soon be home, love
Suburban Roulette!

and, for that matter, the absence of kid gloves as a compliment

Ha, yes. My self-esteem is pretty good as it goes, but the fact of knowing I was loved or at least wanted reciprocally was a bloody big part of it for a long time. Being single for so long has had a pretty major effect on me.

Back to poly. I've never been in the situation you're in now Jess. The one major poly thing I went through was essentially poly from the word go so there was never any mono->poly negotiation issues. However, the four of us collectively plumbed the depths of baggage you could bring to the relationship, so I've had my fair share of jealousy/self-esteem fuck ups. The one thing I should have learnt from this, above all else, is to not let any twinges fester. If you're uncomfortable say so, even if it seems really petty. Otherwise you open up a whole world of mess. Communication breakdowns in mono situations are bad enough, but the more partnerships you've got the worse it gets.

i think most of the confusion on the latter part of thread stems from the fact that an agreement for 'more people' can come with tons of different contingencies and rule sets attached

i wasnt sure if we were talking about introducing another main player into an existing relationship, agreeing to see *any* other people, agreeing to see *certain* other people or what. i think each situation probably warrants a separate discussion, as theres different issues at the root of each

Here's my current situation: I am 30. I live with one man (age 40) G, with whom I will be celebrating 6 years of being together at the end of this month. I also have another lover, D (age 34), whom I've been with for 3 and 1/2 years, who does not live with us, but who spends most of his free time with us. For all intents and purposes, this is a poly relationship, in that there are the three of us and we have found a relationship where we are all equals, and where each of our needs and desires are as valid and respected as the others.

I have sexual relations with both of the men. Sometimes one at a time, sometimes all at the same time. They are not sexually involved with each other. In many ways, they relate as best friends and brothers and cohorts. There is little to no jealousy in our relationship; each of us knows that we give something to the other that no one else can give. What D gives me is not replicated by G, and vice versa. One of the more unique aspects of my boys is that is many ways they're at opposite ends of the spectrum, so to speak, in emotional beliefs, interests, and how they interact with the world. Each of them brings to me insight that I would not receive from anyone other than them.

We are a closed, fluid-bonded relationship. That means that we do not go outside of the three of us for sexual fulfillment. We are as committed to each other and to making this relationship (or these relationships, as there are many different interplays within the three of us) work and be fulfilling to all involved as anyone I know in a two-person relationship.

It isn't always an easy situation - we've dealt with family members being uncomfortable, not being able to talk about the situation with co-workers and buddies, and problems that crop-up with all of us. But we face these with open minds and honesty - we each know that we can say what we feel and believe and know that we will not be judged, but rather respected, for voicing such intimate matters.

There are some amazing benefits to the situation - I not only have a best friendship with two of the most amazing, intelligent, and sexy men that I have ever known, but I get to sleep with each of them! (Which is a big plus - they're so different in the bedroom, from each other, that I don't get bored.) We also provide complete emotional support for each other - when one of us has a bad day, we've two people to comfort us and listen to us and love us. For me, especially, I've found that when I am frustrated/angry with one of the men, the other will not only leap to their defense, but also help me see what is going through the mind of the other and remind me of why it is that I am with him ... they both work to keep me happy with the other: to keep me content and feeling secure and safe and loved.

Sometimes it is difficult for me to balance my time with each of them along with the time for all of us together and with time for myself, by myself. But we all work on that, and they understand that sometimes I need to be alone - so they go off and do stuff with each other (not in a sexual way, though I do realize that the statement could be read that way). We have enough diverse and enough shared interests that we constantly learn from each other and always have things to talk about and dream about and do.

I think that one of the main things that makes this work for all of us is the fact that we're all secure with ourselves and know our worth to each other - for me, the boys supplement each other, not detract. And one is not going to supplant the other. I want them and need them both. And they want and desire and need me, too. We also talk things through, constantly, and work on anything that is at all off for any of us. Like any relationship there are the ups and downs, but, as sappy as it sounds, I'd like to grow old and grey in their arms - and they feel the same about me.

Things are getting interesting in the relationship right now because I am finding myself drawn to another person, outside of our threesome. I am having to be especially conscious of everyone's feelings and fears, right now - I do not see this person (nor would ever consider) pushing out one of my men - it's too early in the getting to know each other stage of things to know where it might go with them - but I am not opposed to the idea of expanding our family to include another, provided that we all like and love and trust each other, and know that we will continue to have our needs and desires accepted, respected, and met.

First and foremost, G and D and I are best friends - we like each other as people - we enjoy and seek-out each others company and ideas - we see each other as the whole person, with strengths and flaws and love them completly - we accept that no-one is the end-all be-all for anyone else and do not expect that from each other - the fact that I sleep with each of them is actually secondary to the friendship and kinship that we share.

D says that what we have is more like a commune than a triad - and he's right in that assessment. We all contribute to a communal life and take from that what we need to thrive. We're three oddball people, who tend to feel alienated from much of the world - somehow we've found each other and in that finding know that we are loved and needed and accepted for ourselves.

I do not advocate poly relationships for everyone (and I've not even touched on swingers stuff, but that will be another post) - but for us it is what works. Each of us has expressed the sentiment that we have never felt more alive and secure and happy in any other situation.

This may not work for everyone, but it works for us. We struggle with the complications, at times, but that is true in any relationship. And we know, at the end of the day, that we want to be right where we are - with each other.

Hey Jess - your situation doesn't sound unfamiliar. I guess the first question is to ask how you feel about the situation but the boards are probably not the best place. Maybe we could TALK ONLINE if I ever get this GAIM thing sorted out. Why doesn't ILX go on IRC eh? I managed to make IRC work but have no channels to go to anymore.

The fact that you have both decided that you may have space for other potential relationships but still want to maintain your current relationship is a big change from a "regular" mono relationship. I guess the question is, are both of you really content with this? Poly relationships, from observation, need to be really honest, esp. with the HEM HEM primary partners dear GOD I've been hanging around goths too much. Jess have you started listening to Covenant and wearing black recently??

I say start playing with lots of cute GURLS and see what happens poo ur gosh also BE CAREFUL gor blimey.

u&k piece of info which might xplain why this has seemingly sent such a bug up my ass even though i say i am "okay" with it: this was decided last weekend, and nancy left for two and a half weeks in oklahoma yesterday, so i'm going a little batty to begin with.

me: "can i have an everything bagel and a large coffee?"
barista: "for here?"
me: "yeah."
barista: "$1.85."
me: thanx.

me: "hey, do you know if this is on cd?"
her: "uhhh...yeah, but we dont have it."
me: "okay just this then."
her: "17.87."
me: "shit, i'm a dollar short. can i leave it here and come back later?"
her: "sure."

him: "hey"
me: "hello"
him: "looks like you got a walkman there. walkmans are so cool."
me: "uh, yeah."

Dude, a British person could never get away with saying "bug up my ass".

yeah, we had a four hour discussion about it all, and a few smaller ones since.

this trip had been planned for like three months. it's a combo family visit/church thing.

this decision had been planned for like six months now. but neither of us knew it, i think.

(See?)

(Also that's so cheap for a coffee and an everything bagel I guess it is true what they say abt the Statez).

really, i will survive, don't fret

i think he undercharged me, as it's usually like eight bucks and your first born and a picture of you in a zebra costume

Jess, you can get a bagel and coffee for $1.85?!? holy cow. . . I'm glad you revived this thread, ::hugs::

I will be your friend Jess! I like you!

Seriously Jess do you want to talk on IRC? (I am mostly desperate to see if I installed it right).

(Incidentally, I once accused the Pinefox of having a bug up his arse. He did not take kindly to this.)

68% starry!

I'd best test it to make sure it works!

ANd then when it's flashed up it's "you are connected" rub and asks you what room you want to go into, type #ilx!

x-post: I'm not sure if that's a euphemism... But obviously, like every relationship, it is going to be decided by you and her.

also, "guys"? hetero-sexism springs forth again, and again, and again on this thread.

Hmm, just got your second post, if you're happy I'm happy, but you don't sound happy.

I'd also recommend checking-out the following two books (Amazon carries them):

The Ethical Slut: A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities
by Dossie Easton, Catherine A. Liszt

and

Polyamory: The New Love Without Limits: Secrets of Sustainable Intimate Relationships
by Deborah M, Dr. Anapol

(They're the only 'self-help' books that I've ever read that I thought were worth the time ... well, the only ones that aren't purely about sex stuff.)

Also, there's a book called Three in Love which is a look at historical polyamorous relationships - it can be a real eye-opener, though many of those relationships did not last.

In regards to Mary's comment about sitting at home while your S/O prepares for a date and intimacy with someone else ... that does happen, and it can be painful. You need to know that you can accept that pain and isolation, and your S/O needs to know the same. I'd suggest that, especially at first, getting to know others be done by both of you, so you know who that other person is and don't feel as pushed aside as you might well feel, initially.

Finally, seek out some on-line or real-time support and discussion groups - you'll run into the typical horny and annoying teenage males, but you'll also find some people who can provide you with insight and support.

Good god people, have some sensitivity. Jess was looking for advice, yes, but also some reassurance. Telling him his relationship is doomed is not exactly helpful.

I'm the other guy? Who knew?

I only think you've brought up some good arguements.

Perhaps as someone wbo is still dealing with this herself, I appreciate it. But I think this is a good thread, dumb-ass responses and all.

oh, and ESOJ, I'm completely serious.

who the hell is otis

og poster from '01

ha i think we gathered that dude

name: Otis

well, i mean he was here a lot, not just some dude who posted a few times and split.

holy shit i posted on this thread haha...i believe in yesterday

/ paul mccartney

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/7425/imageuploadimage.jpg

Velko, are you some OG poster too? What name did you previously use?

Christ I have no idea who I was referring to in my example way back in 03... but if it is who I suspect, he's since married and settled down, haw.

Otis was a dude that Jordan S. and his friends gathered

Also a friend of Ally's and one reason for the founding of ILE

Otis Redding - I've been loving youn

Odd the train of thought that led me from here to how do i become a mason .

weird thread upthread but let's do the all important thing where we ignore stuff from 5 years ago.

simple maybe stupid question, maybe better suited for the genderqueer thread but thought i'd put it here--anybody have resources on navigating being a straight primary partner for a queer person? their desires are ~not about me~, obviously, but i could use some help or advice dealing with the strange feeling i get when i stay home while they go for a prowl at pride.

(also, as a favor to me, i'd appreciate it if folks didn't get real 'girl/boy problems' thread on me--this isn't a 'relationship problem,' just a request for help if folks can direct me to any.)

If you're not into the polyamorous thing then you should discuss it with your partner. The worst thing you could do imo is pretend you are okay with something you're not. You will start feeling resentful, and then suppress this feeling because you feel bad about feeling it, and then your partner will pick up that you are repressing feelings of discomfort and feel guilty, but then resent you for making you feel guilty, and then feel guilty again for resenting you when you never explicitly said you felt weird about what she was doing in the first place, etc.

(sorry i didn't read your second post. hope you find relevant info hoos)

just to focus what i said a little better--i **do** have a few places in our relationship where i feel a twinge, and my interest is in getting /beyond/ that rather than ignoring it. i'm sort of looking for someone to tell me how to think through this stuff in order to become ok with it, because that's ultimately what i want even if i'm not 100% there yet right now.

I was in the same situation 5-6 years ago, hoos - I'm a pretty unjealous person to begin with, but once I thought of my gf's other bf as just another friend, I felt more comfortable. There were times when I would go out with friends and she would stay home; there were times when she would see her other bf and I would stay home. The only difference was the... activities. It sounds a little simplistic but it worked for me (though I ultimately had other issues with poly).

have you read The Ethical Slut? not for everybody but it might be helpful.

sounds like a license to smash imo

have you read The Ethical Slut? not for everybody but it might be helpful.

― sleeve, Monday, June 2, 2014 5:10 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i haven't, actually--been hearing about it for a while but haven't picked it up. good idea!

useta be ppl w aberrant ethical outlooks would form intentional communities w/likeminded practitioners in outlying areas rather than disseminating their experiments in living in the midst of the society of norms

advice dealing with the strange feeling i get when i stay home while they go for a prowl at pride

I can't assist you with the particulars, but the generalities may be good enough.

This is matter of feelings. The feelings give rise to thoughts, but the thoughts are only there to give the feelings a more definite form. The thoughts are neither true nor false, but simply exist as expressions of that feeling. They are bound to be ornate, involved, and ultimately misleading, while the feeling itself is extremely simple. Just dive straight at the feeling and feel it; the superficial thoughts will fade into irrelevancies and the essence of the situation will become clearer.

I hope that helps.

http://missemmamm.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/amy.png

i'm sort of looking for someone to tell me how to think through this stuff in order to become ok with it, because that's ultimately what i want even if i'm not 100% there yet right now.

is there a particular reason why you want this?

because for me this partner is worth closing the gap.

That's why I was willing to try it with my then-gf too, a few years into our relationship. It was new territory for me, her, and the other guy, and we all tried to make it work. I don't regret the experience, but it had its pitfalls

Also I never read the Ethical Slut, but she had a copy and it was an illuminating book for her

I'll definitely grab TES at the library this week.

Are you seeing other people as well?

I'm not actively pursuing anybody--not enough time, honestly--but I'm open to it.

K. I think your best bet is to remain open to that possibility so things don't feel one sided.

Oh yeah--I learned my lesson on the importance of that when I spent years with a partner who saw other people while I didn't. Don't need to relearn how that leads to resentment.

Also just got some helpful suggestions elsewhere on the importance of getting to know other partners that are important to my partner--will have to follow through with that as well as checking out the book. Thx for the careful treading, yall.

rip ringtone bisexual crew ;_;

On a more serious note, my GF's other partner is a cishet dude who is monogamous to her and it seems to work out fine? They were together 5-6 years before she ever met me and she's had other partnerships and dalliances during that time. I can't exactly tell you what's in his mind tho.

rip ringtone bisexual crew ;_;

― uppers epilepsy sh@kedown (The Reverend), Monday, June 2, 2014 7:12 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

*pours 1 out*

I just had to eventually recognize that I didn't have an ~abiding~ interest in men, woulda been disingenuous to talk like my infrequent blip on that radar was meaningful for my life.

how open is a hoos with his queer partner? are you guys discussing your discomfort? cause that strikes me as the only real way to work this through.

yeah we're open about this stuff, that's the name of the game, i just know i'm not the first person in the world to wonder about these questions, so i wanted some reading material to think through before i tried to name what i was feeling.

none of my biz, but based on past exp, i think crut's question is key. seems most important, if you're still sorting things out, to get at how you really feel. i.e., table for moment how you'd like or think you ought to feel, give yourself permission to not be cool w/ it, etc. work out from there.

Is there any distinction btw 'open relationship' type polyamory, where one/both parties 'go on the prowl' and one where there is a steady other/others involved?

having a partner "go on the prowl" just seems like a dick move on their part tbrrwu

Seems like a pretty "rawr" move to me, idk.

real-life open relationships don't involve either party 'going on the prowl' ime.

well, OKCupid works dandy too.

Just a turn of phrase.

Me and my gf both think the idea of the other fucking other people is really hot and that's the best way imo.

i can kind of see that Rev (tho i'm too jealous/insecure to ever actively seek that scenario out) but the thought of my partner just kissing someone else fills me with a deep sadness.

Kissing my partner and someone else at the same time was really fun ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sometimes I think my biggest problem in relationships is that I just really don't give a shit about the idea of them kissing or doing anything else with anybody else, but they *want* me to care (and/or don't want me to do things with other people). I've just always been wired this way or something, sometimes I feel like an alien, bystanders demanding that you should feel awful and bummed out about something that you don't actually.

a paragraph i found striking from ethical slut, which I'm barreling through now:

Unlearning Jealousy: To change the way you experience a feeling takes time, so expect a gradual process, learning as you go, by trial and error. And there will be trials, and you will make errors. Start by giving yourself permission to learn. Allow yourself to not know what you don't know, to be ignorant. You must allow yourself to make mistakes; you have no choice. So reassure yourself: there is no graceful way to unlearn jealousy. It's kind of like learning to skate-you have to fall down and make a fool of yourself a few times before you become as graceful as a swan. The challenge comes in learning to establish within yourself a strong foundation of internal security that is not dependent on sexual exclusivity or ownership of your partner. This difficult work is part of the larger question of how to grasp your personal power and learn to understand and love yourself without such a desperate need for another person to validate you. You become free to give and receive validation, not from need or obligation, but from love and caring.

take care of yourself, dude

^^^

i went through this once. long-term girlfriend in college wanted to open things up since we went to schools about an hour away from each other, and she was into the polyamory/sex adventure stuff. like, she got mad at me because i didn't want to make a retail porno with her when some indie porn production company visited her school and gave a presentation. i sorta dated her because i had this idea i was some groovy libertine sex rebel, but when actually faced with it i realized i wasn't as comfortable with it as i thought.

then in my 20s i went through one night stands, short term flings, etc. and same thing happened again. not as much of a cool, groovy sex dude as i thought. i've made peace with the fact that i'm a boring, white-bread, long-term, monogamous relationship person. i don't think there should be pressure to be anything you don't want or enjoy, whether it's polyamory or plain ole' monogamy. it's all up to what you want and enjoy since it's your life, bottom line.

TS: groovy libertine sex rebel vs. cool, groovy sex dude

;)

i've made peace with the fact that i'm a boring, white-bread, long-term, monogamous relationship person.

Yup, that's me too. And what is described above as "unlearning jealousy," which I have tried to do before (although I've never actually tried an open relationship) feels to me uncomfortably close to learning to bury your anger.

i read the ethical slut because i was infatuated with a poly-leaning woman (and had been before, to my chagrin). i was not very impressed. it seemed like there was something undertheorized about it. like, since the premise is the validation of some form of unconventional romantic or sexual arrangements, or not even unconventional but socially undefined, so that people interested in them essentially have no script to work from, what the book really has to appeal to is some indeterminate combination of a) self-actualization talk, b) contractualized liberal-individualist talk, c) touchy-feely communicative interpersonal relating talk, and d) moralizing directed at whatever it is (usually about you and your hangups) that stops you from making it work, although the bottom line is more or less always eventually 'welp some people are like this, some people are like that, maybe you are or aren't'. the basic orientation toward experimenting without ethical guiderails seems right (and it appeals to what are intuitively the right things to appeal to, more basic or more personal touchstones for what would be ethical or what would be fulfilling or what would work), but the mixture doesn't come off right somehow.

I see the monogamous relationship as a kind of civilizational compromise. I get the arguments against it, and I realize that there might be alternative arrangements that work for some people, but I don't think that you can get rid of the supposed drawbacks of monogamy without bringing a bunch of new problems on yourself, and I think most people prefer the problems of monogamy to the problems of polyamory.

i don't think it even needs to get that theoretical, the choice can just be based on personal preferences. i like monogamy because i prefer deep, time-invested relationships with people, and there's a lot of other shit i'd rather be doing than spreading my attention around among different people, which is emotionally exhausting for me. everyone has a different personality, brain, tastes, etc., and i think people should feel free to enjoy themselves however they want (ya know, within responsible limits).

I think I also just like the reliability of the monogamous relationship, like after a long day of work you know that the same person you love will be there waiting for you instead of wondering whether she'll be somewhere else or whether you're going somewhere else. It's also a lot harder for me to conceive of having kids outside monogamy, like little kids REALLY want to know that the same people are coming home every day. Although I guess there are people who make it work, and kids can adjust to things.

It also depends on how much sex means to you.

well, sex with other people that is

I think I also just like the reliability of the monogamous relationship, like after a long day of work you know that the same person you love will be there waiting for you instead of wondering whether she'll be somewhere else or whether you're going somewhere else.

Sure, but this seems like precisely the kind of thing that people inclined towards polyamory could work out with each other. Ground rules, comfort zones, this-but-not-that, these days but definitely not these days. Actually I think these can be really strengthening to the primary relationship because they reaffirm that the time you do spend together is by choice and desire, not out of habit, that this coming-home-to-each-other is a core value in the relationship that you aren't willing to trade off, etc. These things take different shapes of course - I don't believe all poly people have a 'primary' person but this is the version that clicks the most for me.

I do agree with j's take on The Ethical Slut - I haven't read it since 2000 or so (similar deal, was dating a poly person, somewhat more hippy-ish, less intellectually oriented, and carefree than me) and found it exciting but frustratingly glib and granola. But if it's clicking for a HOOS then the more the merrier! I actually think the core point can probably be usefully extracted from the title - you want to have multiple romantic relationships, okay, there are ethical and not-ethical ways to do that, just as there are ethical and non-ethical ways to be monogamous. The process of chipping away at your own biases/tendencies IS thorny, because it rides the edge between a conscious attempt to unspindle parts of your psyche from what amounts to a lifetime of this is what you want and this is the only way people can be happy together, and forcing yourself to do/think things that bottom-line, aren't really you. But to the extent that it's the former, hey, why not?

The 'primary partner' is also a phenomenon.

reaffirm that the time you do spend together is by choice and desire, not out of habit

Choice and desire are fickle and fleeting, which to me is part of the point of commitment. I mean, do I want to worry about whether getting ill or having a crisis I need to deal with will coincide with what my primary partner desires at that particular moment? Spending time with any person for long enough will inevitably feel like habit some of the time.

if spending time enough with someone gets to being a habit without you wanna kill them or they you, cash in

imo one of the worst positions from which to entertain polyamory / becoming more notionally polyamorous is basically one where your aim would be, 'i can be ok with this'.

it seems like one form of an ideal would work best when both partners have, in some sense, needs to give as well as to get that exceed the bounds of conventional monogamy. kind of an exuberant/overflowing amorousness. and give -to others-. if the main ask is that you somehow give your partner more of what they need insofar as you accept/ok their giving/getting from others, it seems hard not to be constrained to conceptualize that in terms of your deficiencies. and it seems to be a stretch to really think of that as 'giving' to your partner, as one might be inclined to think. but a lot of our thinking around close relationships tells us that we are doing a kind of giving when we modify our own feelings or behavior to allow them to act on their freedom or independence from us. that may be true in a sense, but i don't think it has, i wanna say, the same effect on the overall economy of the relationships in which you are both enmeshed. the balance (not in terms of debts but in terms of intensity and volume and direction, more like harmoniousness) of giving-and-getting.

Sometimes I think my biggest problem in relationships is that I just really don't give a shit about the idea of them kissing or doing anything else with anybody else, but they *want* me to care (and/or don't want me to do things with other people). I've just always been wired this way or something, sometimes I feel like an alien, bystanders demanding that you should feel awful and bummed out about something that you don't actually.

― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, June 4, 2014 6:06 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this is something that was a problem for me in previous relationships. I never really gave a fuck what my partners did with anyone else but I felt restricted to monogamy because that was the socially acceptable thing. I never cheated on anyone but I always felt like it was because I was fulfilling some kind of social contract, not because I didn't want to sleep with other people, and in the time leading up to meeting my gf I'd pretty much started to believe monogamy is bullshit. Finding someone who was even more enthusiastically anti-monogamy than me was revelatory and I finally felt like I could have a relationship on the terms I wanted.

Btw the "commitment" thing is a total red herring, I feel way more committed to my gf than any person I've been monogamous with. Just because we sleep with (and in her case, have a relationship with) other people, doesn't mean we aren't deeply committed to each other. We both recognize that we want to be together for the rest of our lives and have talked about possibly having a child and making other long-term commitments.

yep, there is a big difference between physical fidelity and emotional committment

Rev if this isn't too personal a question, what's your strategy for raising children as a person in a polyamorous realtionship? I ask not for puritanical reasons but logistical ones; raising a child with one other person sometimes feels difficult and I am curious if you're talking about expanding your circle or if you'd keep the child-rearing as a thing between the two of you, or something else. It's not a question that would come up in a monogamous relationship with no divorce (which is the context both my wife and I come from so we have no practical experience with blended families or step- relationships) and I'm curious about your thoughts on how to navigate it, because I'm a ho for interpersonal logistics.

interesting choice of phrasing there

It's not honestly something I've given too much thought to, but she already has a kid (from her ex-husband, not her other current partner). I don't currently help raise her daughter at all, (I'm across the country most of the time at this point and I don't intend to anyway unless invited to do so, but that's basic dating a person with a kid stuff, nothing to do with polyamory), but her other partner who she's been with for much longer does help with her kid. She's always been open with her kid about the nature of her relationships. But I imagine the child-rearing for our own kid would mostly be between me and her unless things drastically changed between us. She has some ideas about raising kids as part of some extended radical queer family and ehhh I'm not as into that idea personally, but we've already had that conversation.

Ugh, could this thread be deindexed?

I think I also just like the reliability of the monogamous relationship, like after a long day of work you know that the same person you love will be there waiting for you instead of wondering whether she'll be somewhere else or whether you're going somewhere else.

that isn't monogamy, that's "I'd be so happy to keep your dinner warm" 1950s suburban style traditionalism.

not necessarily--in my experience there's an emotional comfort that comes from predictable contact that doesn't require any of the trappings of "suburban style traditionalism" to manifest.

I go home and cook the dinner, that's why she's waiting for me.

ie that's projection imo s

I think I also just like the reliability of the monogamous relationship, like after a long day of work you know that the same person you love will be there waiting for you instead of wondering whether she'll be somewhere else or whether you're going somewhere else.

that isn't monogamy, that's "I'd be so happy to keep your dinner warm" 1950s suburban style traditionalism.

― sarahell, Wednesday, June 4, 2014 5:53 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Um, no it isn't.

Also "be there waiting for you" = shorthand for "or will be coming home to you later." I happen to have longer work hours than my wife. Some nights she has classes and comes home later than me. You're being overly literal.

Sorry, just responding to the "after a long day of work (she) will be there waiting for you" -- maybe too literally? But it really conjures up this 50s suburban imagery. But the thing is -- people have lives outside of committed monogamous relationships. They have friends, hobbies, jobs ... maybe instead of sitting around at home, they go out with friends, they visit family, etc. Monogamy can be equally unpredictable, even without sexual infidelity.

Sorry - but your life sounds really dull, Hurting.

You're projecting an awful lot onto what I said.

I am responding to what you said!

I'm not sure where you got from my post that we don't have jobs, never go out, don't have friends, don't visit family, don't have hobbies, as though I literally meant the same exact job-home routine every day.

dull can be pretty fun though.

xp

yeah yeesh sarahell

Wait so is this thread not about me

pretty sure Hurting wasn't meaning he literally comes home from work every day to a partner that is sitting on the couch anticipating his arrival, but was more making a broad statements about routines, but ymmv

xxp - it sure sounded like you meant the same exact routine every day. That is the appeal you were attempting to convey, right? Also, based on other things you posted in this thread. Lots of people are boring. It doesn't mean you are deficient as a human being. Just own up to your boring-ness.

lol that isn't how it read at all.

considering your user name ...

I think I also just like the reliability of the monogamous relationship, like after a long day of work you know that the same person you love will be there waiting for you instead of wondering whether she'll be somewhere else or whether you're going somewhere else.

He never said home; we wait for each other at the pub tbh

The larger point still stands -- just because a couple is monogamous, doesn't mean that their lives are routine and just because a couple is poly, doesn't mean they aren't.

considering your user name ...

― sarahell, Wednesday, June 4, 2014 6:12 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

http://media.giphy.com/media/eruN8g7BhO4uc/giphy.gif

sarahell you are literally the only person who read it that way

xp don't think "routine" was the point, the point I got in the context of the discussion was that you don't have to make a special appointment

I think the thing that is the most salient to me (and what struck me as traditionalism) is the consistency of "waiting for one another" -- when plenty of couples I know don't have those routines. The other person will have things come up, make spontaneous plans with other people, etc.

you've heard of figurative language, right?

well that's you then, no need to project so much onto what was a completely innocuous comment xp

xp - the phrase "fuck off douchebag" rings a few bells for me, so yes

so glad we're discussing this

xp j - it was innocuous! I am not saying that there's anything wrong with it! I am just saying it is traditional and a bit boring "to me" -- not that there is anything wrong with it.

polyanomie

xp, oh does it really? Good then. Fuck off, douchebag.

That it doesn't jibe with my experience or that of most of my friends. However, I imagine it is probably how the vast majority of people are.

the less fun people

That must feel nice and comfy and smug to think

not you or your friends, though

got it

it doesn't seem that wise to be calling out people's relationships or lives for being boring in the middle of an actual decent discussion of polyamory, but now that we know you're a bold risk-taker couldn't you just let it lie and stop trying to own your overstep? xxxxxp

To be perfectly honest though, yeah my life is more routine now with a child. But having a two-year-old run up to you like a maniac when you walk in the door and say a new completely ridiculous thing every night has not gotten boring yet.

xp - not really, conventional and boring is nicer and more comfortable.

But back to polyamory (sorry for the derail -- really) - and what I was saying is somewhat related to my take on it:

Jealousy is mostly unhealthy (hell, maybe entirely), but there is jealousy in relationships over many things that aren't just your partner having sex with another person. There is jealousy over time spent with family, children, friends, at work, doing creative pursuits. I think the key issue is to isolate the "sexual" aspect from the equation.

Jesus folks

And the comment about making a "special appointment"! I mean, "date night" is a real thing! Monogamous couples have to make special plans to have time alone together!

I wish, I've to give ten weeks notice for pints

i think it's established (out there) that polyamorists must often deal with time-jealousy that is not strictly sexual

maybe even time-jealousy over things that would not be paid as much attention between monogamous partners, who do still have their own time-sharing problems

I think a lot of people also find that sexual involvement with a second person can interfere with your emotional connection with the first person. I'm not saying there aren't people for whom this isn't true, I'm just saying I think that's another reason most people aren't comfortable with polyamory. It's a fair point that people get jealous of other pursuits too, for sure, but I don't feel like, idk, getting together with friends and jamming gets in the way of my connection with my wife -- if anything it makes it stronger when I come back. Whereas spending a lot of one-on-one time with a woman I'm attracted to will tend to get in the way of things with my wife.

If that's boring, so be it. Everyone gives up some things to gain others. Sometimes I feel like polyamory is presented as having your cake and eating it too.

I think a lot of people also find that sexual involvement with a second person can interfere with your emotional connection with the first person.

This is totally true! When my now-ex and I were first getting together, he was dating another woman (who had a primary partner), and it was problematic for me. And when we talked about it, it came down to, "I have trouble getting in the mood because you are seeing someone else." And then he stopped seeing her, and that part of our relationship was fine.

His previous relationship was an on-again/off-again poly thing (his gf's desires). He was fine either way.

if it's not too personal to ask, did you get any psychological insight into why that would be (the getting in the mood thing)? you can imagine a sorta no-nonsense pro-poly saying 'why should that matter right now, let's just be together' etc

well, in our case, sex was a key part of "being together," and the fact that I had trouble getting off, basically made sex "not good" -- as far as what caused it? Anxiety and insecurity. Envisioning him with this other woman. Worrying that she was a better lay than I was. Normal stuff.

i had a fairly normal monogamous relationship with a woman with some non-sexual… entanglements when i first met her, she wasn't poly, just had kind of a very jealous eye on her own social/relationship freedom, and i didn't think i felt much sex-related anxiety, but the plain not-knowing involved in her maintaining some of her privacy really tended to eat at me especially when we were precluded from spending time together. it was kind of impenetrable to me at the time.

i am not too prone to thinking in terms of 'is someone else better?' in many kinds of relationships, it seems like an interesting thing to keep in mind when considering the emotional aspects of polyamory. a much more poly-inclined woman i was involved with made some offhand remark about how easily someone else in her life made her laugh and that was waaaay worse than the fact that she slept with him sometimes.

maybe aside from all the other junk one reason people feel secure with monogamy is that it tends to quiet the question (in whatever form), 'is someone else better?'.

as if 'they're with you' -> 'no one else is better'

Many of my friends are musicians in bands that tour for weeks/months at a time, and a lot of them are in monogamous relationships that have "special" rules for when the musician is on tour, which is a bit different from standard polyamory, but it is related in terms of rules, sex, and communication. One friend of mine who is poly, let's call him, Jeff, seems to suffer from chronic sleep deprivation, that some of us (friends of his) joke is due to the large amount of time spent processing with all of his polyamorous partners.

I hate monogamy and I hate polyamory. For me, the perfect relationship would be the old-fashioned marriage with well-managed affairs. I imagine that's still understood to be the norm among certain types. Certainly, I never expect to be totally faithful but what I can promise is that they'll never find out. And that's what I want in return. People doing things with other people can really hurt me, but just be clever and don't let me know! (this is difficult, though, and has been for thousands of years.) Anyone who said to me with a straight face 'I want you and nobody else till I die' I could never respect the opinion of.

Your predilections are on record, though, Mr de Sade: The 'Incest Laws': What's The Point?

;)

maybe aside from all the other junk one reason people feel secure with monogamy is that it tends to quiet the question (in whatever form), 'is someone else better?'.

as if 'they're with you' -> 'no one else is better'

― j., Wednesday, June 4, 2014 7:09 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

See, this is where I do think all the forced "You must change yourself and destroy your jealousy!" stuff isn't totally off the mark, just because these are unpleasant, sad feelings to have that aren't really driven by something the other person's doing, right? I mean it gets at issues of self esteem, being able to believe other people when they say they love you, being happy being who you are and not needing to be Superperson, etc. I'm not articulating this well I think, but there's an area here where when questions like that need to be quieted, it might be interesting to face down why we're asking them of ourselves.

I think sometimes "self-esteem" means knowing what won't make you feel good and not accepting it.

I mean it gets at issues of self esteem, being able to believe other people when they say they love you, being happy being who you are and not needing to be Superperson, etc. I'm not articulating this well I think, but there's an area here where when questions like that need to be quieted, it might be interesting to face down why we're asking them of ourselves.

No, I think you are articulating it well! I feel like it comes down to whether working on quieting these questions, depending on how much work it entails, is worth having the relationship with the other person/people? For me, I couldn't imagine getting to a point where I was okay with it, and I gave my partner an ultimatum (her or me). I think the most important thing is to stand up for yourself and communicate in an honest and respectful way: whether you are poly - ok, or poly - not ok.

xpost Sure, totally agreed! Again, I'm definitely not campaigning for everybody to go this route. But, just to throw another straw man in the ring, just as it would be kind of fucked to be deeply disturbed if you come home one day after work and find that your partner is bowling with friends, similarly it would be kind of fucked if you're spending every waking minute fighting back the desperate fear is someone else better??.

Like the thing to "accept" is that your needs and your partner's needs mean the relationship is over.

Like basically I am suggesting that there are some monogamy-wired people who might lead potentially happier lives in the long run from going through some of this jealousy self-analysis stuff - not from dabbling in polyamory as such, just by forcing themselves to ask questions like, why does it make me unhappy to think x or y?

not from dabbling in polyamory as such, just by forcing themselves to ask questions like, why does it make me unhappy to think x or y

oh definitely! I think I tried to say the same thing upthread about codependency and self-esteem issues.

Sure, but having thought through that stuff quite a lot, I came to the conclusion that I am flawed, that I am as sure to get jealous if my partner sleeps with someone else as I am to get hungry if I don't eat, that secondary sexual relationships interfere in ways we can't completely control, and that the best compromise for me is monogamy. I don't believe I can completely rebuild myself like some kind of polyamorous bionic man.

xxp yeah, it's a good idea to work out those issues if you're going to be in a relationship with someone. years ago i almost slept with a married woman, and i think about what it'd be like to be the husband in that position. before i commit myself to a relationship i'd really like to have my shit sorted out because if i was married i know there's plenty of young dudes out there like me, and a lot more of them who are way more carpe diem and less riddled with doubt, and i know women like sex and having fun, too. it's hard to blame people when temptation calls, especially since we only have one life which can be seriously boring and shitty sometimes.

i almost feel guilty if i'd ask someone to deny themselves all the fun and adventure out there just to be with me, because sometimes i regret not sleeping with certain people when i was in a committed relationship. this is a tough issue.

biomorphous polyonic mannnnnn

See, this is where I do think all the forced "You must change yourself and destroy your jealousy!" stuff isn't totally off the mark, just because these are unpleasant, sad feelings to have that aren't really driven by something the other person's doing, right? I mean it gets at issues of self esteem, being able to believe other people when they say they love you, being happy being who you are and not needing to be Superperson, etc. I'm not articulating this well I think, but there's an area here where when questions like that need to be quieted, it might be interesting to face down why we're asking them of ourselves.

i don't disagree, doc, but my thought was that

1) wondering whether there is someone else better (than us) is natural for us

2) there literally are only very constrained reasons for raising the question when someone evidently continues to 'choose' (however you want to frame that) you over every other person, so it's a natural stop on (1)

The reason I don't wonder very often "is there someone else better for me" is because I realize that there might be. There probably is. There always could be. There are billions of women on the planet, what are the odds that there isn't? So I don't stay up at night worrying whether I could have found someone better at all, because to me that's not the point, a quest to find the absolute best person possible. That's a quest that would never end.

Best to concentrate on better hair.

nonono, i'm not talking about you wondering about someone better for you, i'm talking about wondering whether there's someone better THAN you, which might cause you to be anxious or insecure about your relationship

in an actually poly arrangement, you have a prima facie reason to be wondering about that - maybe your partner does or will come to like another of their partners better

there are of course other reasons to wonder about it in a monogamous relationship, but they're not prima facie reasons

so uh long post

I was militantly poly for many years, basically from 18 to 40. Lots and lots of long talks w/primaries and others. I was not very into the free-for-all atmosphere that The Ethical Slut imo celebrates, I was basically coming from a place like Crass' "Smother Love" song, more haughty and politicized. Pat Califia has an even more uncompromising piece against monogamy in the Public Sex anthology, I was a big fan of that & her/his writing in general. Not being super into anonymous/casual, I preferred having primaries along with other occasional partners who were friends or in our circles. Although it might seem like "having your cake and eating it too", there's work involved. One thing that I remember really clearly is my partner at the time saying "just because I'm having issues with it doesn't mean I'm not OK with it" when I was headed out on a charged date w/another person.

I also remember w/sadness how it hurt my primary when my lover called once and she (the primary) could hear the pitch and sweetness change in my voice as I talked, please nobody itt do that (primary and I are still friends 20 years later).

Then I fell in love with, and eventually married, a woman who is not poly at all. We explored the whole "dating other people" thing during the time we were together b4 marriage (almost 4 years, not co-habiting). I am not a very jealous person sexually (see fidelity vs. commitment comment above). When she was w/somebody else, she felt awful about it, and even though it was OK with me, that didn't make her feel better. When I was w/other people, she was unhappy & it was very hard for her. Eventually, a few things became obvious.

- I realized that some of the time I sought out poly adventures in the past was because it created drama in my primary relationship, and I used to be addicted to drama.

- the reason it was hard for her wasn't because of anything personal she needed to deal with, or any kind of uptight control freak scene (see jealousy again). It's just not the way she's wired. If her inability to accept it had been less honest, we wouldn't have gotten married (there were obviously some very long discussions here). figuring out this whole thing kinda defused my political/theoretical objections to a monogamous relationship, at least w/her (cuz she's awesome).

- post-marriage, I'm actually fine with just one person sexually, and it doesn't feel weird. At first it was harder, and it still comes up sometimes for us & results in conversations. But I don't feel like I'm making any greater of a sacrifice than she did during the years she genuinely tried to understand & live w/it.

so that's my journey from militant poly to complicated mono. In general, I think people should cut their partners more slack around these issues, both ways. One good Califia quote is something like "don't blame the other woman for your divorce, blame the screaming and china-throwing you did when you found out about her."

also, this is really OTM:

The reason I don't wonder very often "is there someone else better for me" is because I realize that there might be. There probably is. There always could be. There are billions of women on the planet, what are the odds that there isn't? So I don't stay up at night worrying whether I could have found someone better at all, because to me that's not the point, a quest to find the absolute best person possible. That's a quest that would never end.

― ₴HABΔZZ ¶IZZΔ (Hurting 2), Wednesday, June 4, 2014 6:16 PM

xp oh ok, well I think "is there someone better than me" in a poly relationship seems like a pretty rational fear, no? I mean it seems like there'd obviously be a decent chance that your partner, spending intimate time and having sex with someone else, would get attached to that other person and decide they'd rather spend more time with that person and less with you. I mean to me it just feels like inviting that to happen, because that's kind of how hormones seem to work. It seems to me like to be truly ok with that, you have to be ok with a looser, more tenuous form of attachment that's more likely to dissipate. Although it would be interesting to see data, if there is any, on, say, the rate of divorce in poly marriages, but it's probably a small sample size with unusual characteristics. I mean maybe for some people that's just it: your relationship may be more likely to end some day, but what's so bad about that? I see that side of it.

great post, sleeve.

and hurting u have been making some great posts.

i would obviously be a different person were i able to have an appropriately close human connection with more than one partner. honestly i can't even fathom it. to find one person i love enough to actively miss them when they're not around is a tiny miracle to me.

very interesting post sleeve thx

<3

I was following this thread earlier today and did some looking around in regards to an earlier statement, it was always my understanding that lots of married people had affairs but new(er) data suggests otherwise:

http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/28/sanford-ensign-affair-opinions-columnists-extramarital-sex.html

this kinda punches a hole in what would have been my previous "all the married people do it to, they're just lying hypocrites" argument back when I was more defensive abt my choices & judgmental abt the mono lifestyle.

"too", oops

the divorce "stats" that get cited a lot are also both questionable and skewed by young marriages. The divorce rate among like college-educated people who wait until their mid to late 20s or later to get married is much lower iirc.

Yeah those affair stats make sense to me somehow. I mean sometimes I look around at all the married couples I know and I just think to myself "I can't really picture most of these people having an affair, how could it be statistically true that so many of them will?"

also, to CAD, this:

to find one person i love enough to actively miss them when they're not around is a tiny miracle to me.

is beautiful and touching and heartwarming and I am glad you found that person.

I think a lot of people also find that sexual involvement with a second person can interfere with your emotional connection with the first person.

For me the bigger problem has been my emotional connection with the first person interfering my emotional connection to a second. When I first started with my gf, we very quickly formed a hugely intense emotional bond. Then I started dating another woman for months (I still haven't officially broken things off but that's something I need to do) and while we liked and were attracted to each other, we never really seemed to form any emotional connection, and I've wondered if the intensity of the emotions I feel about my GF prevented me from having emotional energy to spare on the other woman I've been dating. I do think some of it may just be different personalities involved and the latter just being more emotionally detached, period.

maybe aside from all the other junk one reason people feel secure with monogamy is that it tends to quiet the question (in whatever form), 'is someone else better?'.

That's not necessarily how it works in polyamory. The GF says me and her other partner provide very different things that the other could not and knowing how different he is from me, I totally understand that.

I think sometimes "self-esteem" means knowing what won't make you feel good and not accepting it.

― ₴HABΔZZ ¶IZZΔ (Hurting 2), Wednesday, June 4, 2014 5:48 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is so otm I had to crosspost it to 'truth bombs.' I feel like most of my recent personal growth has been learning to establish that things I do must be on terms that work for me and will make me happy.

thx rev, also enjoying your posts

its all a mutual love fest ITT, appropriately enough

I'm not going to share my opinions on polyamory; people should feel free to do whatever works for them and their partners.

But I just wanted to call out this quote:

One good Califia quote is something like "don't blame the other woman for your divorce, blame the screaming and china-throwing you did when you found out about her."

As the total fucking next-level bullshit that it is. Because when a man has been having an affair, those are your two options: blame the other woman, blame yourself for your anger. The man in the equation has ~nothing to do with it~ and should of course just be excluded from all blame from anything ever! It's women who are responsible for the sexual behaviour of men! Always! Never the men themselves! I have no time for this logic.

It's in a piece where she's largely talking about lesbian relationships.

Gender is salient, when talking about the ways that male sexual behaviour is excused and justified. But in specific cases, whether it's a man or a woman doing the straying, to reduce it down to "one of two people are to blame: the jilted party or the other woman" HELLO THERE IS A THIRD PERSON IN THIS EQUATION WHO IS THE ONE WHO MADE THE CHOICE. Why not look at the person who made that choice? It's still flawed logic, and I still find it gross.

Anyway, I'm out. This is not something I can debate without getting emotional; it's not about polyamory, it's about infidelity which is not the same thing, and I don't want to waste my emotion on this.

Never mind. Every time I post on ILX lately, I wish I hadn't; this is no different.

As you were.

when the moons hit your eyes, like some big pizza pies, that's polyamore.

This thread needs a little bit of me!

http://www.rmi.org/Content/Images/Staff_ALovins.gif

http://www.rmi.org/Amory+B.+Lovins

come to think of it, poly-o amore is kind of like having the best part of the pizza, without the pizza

what a hacky signifier!

lol

i thought this was a terrific article

Most of the polyamory advice literature does not advocate for dense interdependent networks over a lifetime anyway. Their brand of polyamory is individual freedom rooted in personal responsibility and self-actualization, which fits much better into our current neoliberal opportunity structure. An interviewee from “The Ethical Slut” says it best:

“My open sexual lifestyle gives me personal freedom, independence and responsibility in a way that being an exclusive couple doesn’t. Because I’m responsible, every day, for my needs being met (or not), and for creating and maintaining the relationships in my life, I can take nothing for granted…and so this lifestyle gives me a very concrete feeling of individuality that I re-create every day.”

This is “expressive individualism” (à la Bellah’s “Habits of the Heart”) at its finest. The polyamory advice literature soaks in a sea of middle-class self-actualization, where seekers express their authentic selves through individualized decisions about relationships. Much like the human potential movement of the 1960s, the purpose of relationships in polyamory is to contribute to one’s individual self-growth and to allow others the individual freedom to do the same. This individualistic approach to relationships is also “convenient” in that it allows partners to be dispensable if we find better psychological or economic opportunities somewhere else. Polyamory expert Deborah Anapol describes this so called new paradigm as one where the purpose of relationships is to “further the psychological and spiritual development of the partners,” which she contrasts with the “old paradigm,” which she says “expects family members to replace individual desires with group agendas.”

As one polyamory advice website states succinctly, “polyamory encourages, allows, and almost demands that you be an individual first and foremost.”

...Seeing ourselves as part of a larger system (whether of three or 300 people) leads to taking social responsibility for the health of that system. Can we solve polyamory’s jealousy problem? Perhaps, perhaps not. But what we can do is stop pretending that we don’t know where jealousy comes from.

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/14/jealous_of_what_solving_polyamorys_jealousy_problem/

anecdotally I seem to be noticing a rise in polyamory among folx in my age group. good for them!

that looks interesting, but i'm sure it's not as hilarious as this badiouian-maoist critique of polyamory https://revolutionaryphilosophycommittee.wordpress.com/2014/09/01/a-communist-critique-of-polyamory/

hahah yeah i read that the other day it probably belongs itt

it does actually get at exactly what bothered me about badiou's argument, though what i took as shortfalls in his argument they're taking as virtues

I do like that article's critique of the individualist narrative of jealousy, which I often find very off-putting in writing about polyamory. I don't like the author's quid-aggy tone though, which makes polyamory sound like some kind of boutique relationship structure.

I'm also not sure what she means by "community" in modern terms, and I'm not sure I buy her identification of jealousy as a modern capitalist phenomenon. It's not like the term "cuckold" came about in the industrial revolution.

I don't like the author's quid-aggy tone though, which makes polyamory sound like some kind of boutique relationship structure.

not sure what quid-aggy is so this sentence kinda confuses me

I don't think she's saying jealousy itself is a modern capitalist phenomenon though, I think she's saying that the conventional polyamorous understanding of jealousy as an individual failure in a sea of individuals seeking self-actualization is--despite its claim to subversion--actually reinforcing a capitalist logic of individualism.

^^^

when what we ought to be forwarding, i think she's arguing, is an ethic of health of the structures of relationships we're in (& the individuals who make up those structures), no matter what they look like.

quiditties sand agonies xps

Seeing ourselves as part of a larger system (whether of three or 300 people) leads to taking social responsibility for the health of that system. Can we solve polyamory’s jealousy problem? Perhaps, perhaps not. But what we can do is stop pretending that we don’t know where jealousy comes from.

300? is there a village form where they all fuck each other? is that what that shyamalan movie was about?

it does actually get at exactly what bothered me about badiou's argument, though what i took as shortfalls in his argument they're taking as virtues

ha yeah, badiou is just about self-aware enough in his bourgeois maoism to avoid spelling out the silliest implications

Neoliberalism has certainly eroded our ability to rely on extended families and stable communities, which I think both makes traditional marriage more challenging and actually may be behind the growing interest in poly family structures (at least a few of my friends have said "I would be interested in raising kids with more than one other person"). I suppose inasmuch as that lack of community/extended family breeds insecurity and instability, it could also contribute to jealousy -- it's more scary to risk losing the person you're committed to when that's the ONLY person you know you can rely on.

Her point that fostering trust in every direction in the relationship helps to avoid jealousy makes sense. I did find myself wondering how much it was aided by the Japanese small plate cooking class she felt the need to mention, or rather, the material comfort implied thereby.

quiditties sand agonies xps

― killfile with that .exe, you goon (wins), Wednesday, August 5, 2015 8:30 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol sand agonies

in my vagina?

Coming out of my second, and most intense poly arrangement, which offered two basic life lessons:

1. Setting boundaries should be done quickly and resolutely; nobody should feel guilty about their feelings.

2. The pleasure of fucking somebody who's not your partner > the pain of knowing somebody is fucking your partner. Then, the reverse is true.

Our small talk consisted of Bourdieu, Navier-Stokes equations, and Henri Cartier-Bresson.

i dunno seems like it would be hard keeping all the hyphens straight let alone figuring out whose night was whose

haha i hated the parts of the article where the rhapsodizing about the relationship happened, it made them sound so unappealingly pretentious

2. The pleasure of fucking somebody who's not your partner > the pain of knowing somebody is fucking your partner. Then, the reverse is true.

― got a long list of ilxors (fgti), Wednesday, August 5, 2015 11:50 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

feel the shit out of this

These fellows just love talking about themselves!

In the working space I'm using today, eventually two other people came in and at the coffee maker one of them asked the other how she came to be using this working space, after her short answer, his return answer was very long, a little bit about where he was from and where he had lived, then a large chunk about explaining what polyamory was.

I left and went back to my computer but forgot my headphones so could still hear him for some time. Eventually they walked past, and she said "well thank you for sharing", and he said "oh no problem I just love to share"

I don't have problems with polyamory as such (people should be able to find whatever forms of intimacy work for them, and poly oversharing is probably less harmful, because less institutionalized, than its heteronormative equivalents), but I will probably always find this funny: https://mobile.twitter.com/merrittkopas/status/680555624917299204

I dont have a problem with anything, other than war and people talking

Legit scourges, to be sure

http://nypost.com/2017/10/12/ive-been-polyamorous-for-almost-a-decade/

I feel like every article on polyamory relies on the same cliches. "50% of marriages end in divorce anyway" -- actually not true, one of those unsourced stats that has been repeated for generations now, and even less true when you account for education, age of marriage, age of divorce (not such a big deal if people divorce after their kids are out of the house).

Second the straw man idea that, in monogamy, "one person is supposed to meet all of your physical and emotional desires. I never got that message. I'm just a pessimist about the ability of "all" of ones needs and desires to be met anyway, and I think the ones met by monogamy outweigh the ones lost.

Anyway the author has neither kids nor a main partner so I don't really get the point. You date multiple people, cool story.

Ppl without kids and marriage exist yknow

For the rest yeah otm

Oh yeah of course. I just mean I have yet to see the article that's like "I'm 55 and we raised our 3 kids in a polyamorous multi-co-parent relationship and it worked out great". Maybe one day we will.

polyamory has def gotten more exposure/press/discussion for people too young to yet be 55 with 3 kids. though we're not so far from that point probably. "the ethical slut" came out in what, 97? I feel like even at that point though there were testimonials from older, more hippie-oriented "it takes a village" type thinkers.

to be fair, it is not surprising that ppl who were early adopters AND wanted kids AND had them AND chose to raise them in something other than a primarily dyadic deal AND it went well AND they want to write about it is a small subset. i imagine there's a much much larger universe of, say, ppl with a steady primary raising kids together, but they also have other relationships that are not parenting-oriented in any way.

as for the one-person-meeting-all-needs thing --- doesn't this mainly come up in response to objections from monogo types? like specifically in response to people expressing worry along the lines "my partner being interested in other ppl necessarily means there's something insufficient/wrong with me or our relationship." i don't think that's a strawman, I think it's something a ton of people really believe even at a pop-psych --- oh you noticed him checking out another woman, or sharing interests that you two don't share, this a sign of a problem ahhhh!!!

obv there is a wide range of healthier ways of understanding this and I think most mature monogo ppl are well seasoned in recognizing that it's natural someone might have other desires and it doesn't mean something is wrong. I think most poly ppl are at that same place and just additionally would say (speaking broadly) that to take that stance and then also additionally say "but it cannot and must not be acted upon," doesn't add up or work for them --- and maybe that it amounts to the strawman position, that in PRACTICE the single partner is being expected to meet all needs, or that it is desirable/acceptable that the needs of people you love should be suppressed and go unmet.

no judging here as I do know many monogo ppl who seem very happy and no doubt work through these moments in thoughtful, considerate ways through a lot of serious and emotionally honest conversations. to me it's just always seemed like being poly (with its own set of serious and emotionally honest conversations) was closer to ideal and clicked more naturally in my own specific brain. but I'm not an evangelist - it is not for everybody.

The thing that baffles me about polyamorous people is that they're actually able to find people to be polyamorous with. It's exceedingly rare for me to meet even one romantically interesting person; I could be as a polyamorous as you like in theory without ever exceeding monogamy in practice. But apparently there are lots of people out there finding multiple simultaneous partners, drawing only from the relatively shallow pool of other polyamorists.

The inescapable conclusion: polyamorists are the most irresistibly attractive people on earth.

On the other hand, the pool of available polyamorists doesn't deplete as quickly. They can be in one or more relationships and still be available.

Maybe they're just really good at sexing.

Maybe I'm insane but I think reactionary anti-monogamy is stupid

Monogamy is awesome, the benefits of descending through the aging process with your body and your partner's body ensconced in a protective bathysphere is marvellous.

I don't believe anybody who says "humans aren't inherently monogamous" because they're wrong, humans are and society is. The psychological construct of monogamy is imo an intrinsic necessity

All the best poly-relationships, that I've observed, are just hybrids and extensions of that experience imo

On the other hand, the pool of available polyamorists doesn't deplete as quickly. They can be in one or more relationships and still be available.
― jmm, Sunday, October 15, 2017 1:17 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Good point! I hadn't thought of that.

honestly i don't get why anybody who hadn't had direct negative experience with it would be anti-polyamory.

i am too needy to be polyamorous but idgaf how other people live their lives, do whatever makes you happy

If you're in a city/region with a big kink network, it normally follows that there's a decent-ish pool of poly-friendly people. At least in my very limited experience anyhow…

I know a poly triad where all three are bringing kids from previous marriages. The logistics of that are beyond impressive to me. Two sets of stepchildren each, screw that.

Logistics of kids full stop

Again idk why poly gets bad rap there

Even if one has no interest in engaging oneself with poly-relationship stuff, this sort of line of discussion has been useful for me in conducting emotional labour for my various friends who are dealing with extra-marital affairs, cheating, open relationships, as well as poly-stuff

Tbf more than two people helping to raise kids can potentially be very helpful -- in laws and aunts and cousins and friends and the like. I'm just more skeptical of the ability of people to commit to each other and go parenting in that sort of complex, multidirectional way. The main thing I believe in is that kids are better off when there is at least one or two primary parents who are always going to be there. I guess if you have that nailed down, maybe the drifting in and out of others would be less problematic. But idk. The whole anti-self-denial streak I see in a lot of writing about poly worries me when it comes to parenting because parenting requires a lot of self denial.

it gets a bad rap because the most vocal and visible poly people are fuckin’ insufferable

the most vocal and visible poly people are fuckin’ insufferable

like cultists

this badiouian-maoist critique of polyamory

amazing!

revolutionaryphilosophycommittee.wordpress.com is no longer available.
The authors have deleted this site.

rip

i wayback machine'd it, you should too?

https://web.archive.org/web/20141015103013/http://revolutionaryphilosophycommittee.wordpress.com/2014/09/01/a-communist-critique-of-polyamory/

thanking u!

Those who engage in polyamory speak about loving multiple people, yet they never once ask the question, ‘what is love?’

badiou don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more

this badiouian-maoist critique of polyamory

amazing!

― budo jeru

at least we don't have to content with a baeddelian critique of polyamory (lol as if such i could even imagine a self-identified baeddel who wasn't poly)