Drugs, Murder and Mexico

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This law then effectively gives everyone in Mexico the same rights as middle-class white Americans. Bravo.

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Saturday, 29 April 2006 15:55 (7 years ago) Permalink

Some of the amounts are eye-popping: Mexicans would be allowed to possess more than two pounds of peyote, the button-size hallucinogenic cactus used in some native Indian religious ceremonies.

Well, I know where I'm going for vacation.

milo z (mlp), Saturday, 29 April 2006 15:58 (7 years ago) Permalink

Amsterdam?

latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 29 April 2006 16:03 (7 years ago) Permalink

Where's the legalize murder part? So i can go down there and do all the coke and peyote I want but what the fuck am i supposed to do after that? NOT go on a killing spree???

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Saturday, 29 April 2006 16:14 (7 years ago) Permalink

Well, I know where I'm going for vacation.

You and every frat boy in America.

gbx (skowly), Saturday, 29 April 2006 16:20 (7 years ago) Permalink

just don't kill any female students from the US. That's what seems to lead to troubles.

Wiggy (Wiggy), Saturday, 29 April 2006 16:36 (7 years ago) Permalink

pwned!

gbx (skowly), Saturday, 29 April 2006 19:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

Okay never mind then.

Dan (¯\(º_o)/¯) Perry (Dan Perry), Saturday, 29 April 2006 19:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

The bill says criminal charges will no longer be brought for possession of up to 25 milligrams of heroin, 5 grams of marijuana (about one-fifth of an ounce, or about four joints), or 0.5 grams of cocaine -- the equivalent of about 4 "lines," or half the standard street-sale quantity (though half-size packages are becoming more common).

lf (lfam), Sunday, 30 April 2006 05:44 (7 years ago) Permalink

WTF

lf (lfam), Sunday, 30 April 2006 05:45 (7 years ago) Permalink

meanwhile - http://www.colorado.edu/police/420_Photo_Album/index.htm

DEEDS NOT WORDS (vahid), Sunday, 30 April 2006 05:56 (7 years ago) Permalink

who the hell buys 4 lines anyway???????

Allyzay Rofflesbot (allyzay), Sunday, 30 April 2006 06:19 (7 years ago) Permalink

ALSO: yes, who do I get to legally kill, yes?

Allyzay Rofflesbot (allyzay), Sunday, 30 April 2006 06:20 (7 years ago) Permalink

re: that colordado link.

It's amazing that no matter how low my opinion of this world is, there's always something to push it lower.

Austin Still (Austin, Still), Sunday, 30 April 2006 11:23 (7 years ago) Permalink

wait, the sign says "video and photographic surveillance equipment is in use" => I show up and get high anyhow => who's the asshole?

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Sunday, 30 April 2006 11:55 (7 years ago) Permalink

You are the dummy, they are the assholes.

Austin Still (Austin, Still), Sunday, 30 April 2006 11:58 (7 years ago) Permalink

Is not murder legal now anyways?

Favo, Sunday, 30 April 2006 13:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

i dont' get that colorado link at all. is that a joke? what did they close the field for? what the fuck is Farrand Field?

I fucking hate colorado

kyle (akmonday), Sunday, 30 April 2006 14:06 (7 years ago) Permalink

oh I looked it up. fuck that

kyle (akmonday), Sunday, 30 April 2006 14:08 (7 years ago) Permalink

i just wanted to point out that tom's characterization of lax drug laws in the us isn't entirely right.

DEEDS NOT WORDS (vahid), Sunday, 30 April 2006 14:32 (7 years ago) Permalink

Whatever vahid, answer the question:

Where's the legalize murder part?

Thread title looks like its ripped straight off Fox News.

Unlimited Toothpicker (eman), Sunday, 30 April 2006 14:50 (7 years ago) Permalink

actually, it's ripped straight from the liner notes to "dopethrone"

DEEDS NOT WORDS (vahid), Sunday, 30 April 2006 15:21 (7 years ago) Permalink

newsflash! teeny hates dan!

kingfish doesn't live here anymore (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 3 May 2006 19:33 (7 years ago) Permalink

I've come to terms with that.

Dan (ROFFLE) Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 3 May 2006 20:12 (7 years ago) Permalink

1/5th of an ounce of weed would last me about three days.

shookout (shookout), Wednesday, 3 May 2006 20:32 (7 years ago) Permalink

i bet the south padre island chamber of commerce is stressing.

fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Wednesday, 3 May 2006 21:54 (7 years ago) Permalink

FUCKING STONERS

lf (lfam), Thursday, 4 May 2006 04:58 (7 years ago) Permalink

ain't gonna happen

W i l l (common_person), Thursday, 4 May 2006 19:55 (7 years ago) Permalink

4 years pass...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100827/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_drug_war_mexico

i've thought about starting a thread about the sickening drug violence in mexico and elsewhere and how the government passes the blame to drug users and drug users pass the blame to the government while drug cartels revel in the market created by the outlawing of drugs and the money they make from the users and nothing ever changes and people like those migrant workers (and presumably this prosecutor) die in increasingly horrible ways, but based on a couple of "i don't care" responses i've had when i asked this serious question before maybe it would be a waste of time? anyway i think our attitude towards those who suffer south of the border because of this is fairly abhorrent on all fronts and i've learned to not even debate this with close friends because they feel i'm being a dick for even bringing the topic up because they enjoy drugs occasionally.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 19:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think this is kind of a good reason not to use drugs, at least ones that you don't know where they came from, regardless of what you think about legalization. Blood diamonds, blood drugs, etc.

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

i honestly think people who use hard drugs (which are trafficked by the kind of folks who go around murdering people just for the hell of it) don't give a single shit or if they do they blame the market created by the government. of course if they really cared they might not use at all, but there is always going to be resistance to government laws regarding this issue, which is understandable because the government is so wrong on this issue.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

I read yesterday where 28,000 people have been killed in the mexican drug war since 2006 and was just kinda stunned.

Kerm, Friday, 27 August 2010 20:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

Habitual drug users deflecting responsibility shocker

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

But yeah obviously the govt does bear a huge amount of responsibility for this.

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think about this a lot but a) i don't really know what to think, entirely and b) really don't know what to say

goole, Friday, 27 August 2010 20:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

i have read something recently about mexico flirting with the idea of legalizing marijuana unilaterally. it's mexicans who are being murdered, after all.

goole, Friday, 27 August 2010 20:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

i know a couple of folks in l.a. who have grimly mentioned shit that has gone down with relatives in mexico, almost matter-of-factly.

The body count in Mexico stood at 5,400 slayings in 2008, more than double the 2,477 reported in 2007, officials said, with over 1400 in Ciudad Juárez alone.[27][28] The population of Ciudad Juárez had to change their daily routine and many try to stay home in the evening hours. Public life is almost paralyzed out of fear of being kidnapped or hit by a stray bullet. On 20 February 2009, the U.S. State Department announced in an updated travel alert that "Mexican authorities report that more than 1,800 people have been killed in the city since January 2008." [29] On 12 March 2009, police found "at least seven" partially buried bodies in the outskirts of the city, close to the US-Mexican border. Five severed heads were discovered in ice boxes, along with notes to rivals in the drug-wars. Beheadings, attacks on the police and shootings are common in some regions.[30] In September 2009, 18 patients at a drug rehabilitation clinic called El Aliviane were massacred in a turf battle.[31] Patients were lined up in the corridor and gunned down in the early evening. On September 3, 2009 the Associated Press reported that the day before gunmen broke down the door of the El Aliviane drug rehabilitation center and lined their victims up to a wall shooting 17 dead. The authorities had no immediate suspects or information on the victims. Plagued by corruption and the assassination of many of its officers, the government is struggling to maintain Ciudad Juárez's police force. Other police have quit the force out of fear of being targeted.[32] In late 2008 one murder victim was found near a school hanging from a fence with a pig's mask on his face and another one was found beheaded hanging from a bridge in one of the busier streets of the city.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

smoke local pot. and leave everything else alone. unless the canadians start making cocaine or something. the 72 bodies in a room thing...i mean, what can you even say? its just so awful in every possible way. i blame this country so much already for so many things...its a long list. i don't even know what to say.

scott seward, Friday, 27 August 2010 20:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

i sort of attempted to tackle this in a trolling manner on the cocaine C or D thread, but i think it was generally ignored in favor of people relating war stories, i.e. "that time i did coke was a real good time, classic."

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

to repeat:

In September 2009, 18 patients at a drug rehabilitation clinic called El Aliviane were massacred in a turf battle.[31] Patients were lined up in the corridor and gunned down in the early evening.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

message being, what exactly? don't try to quit or we will kill you?

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

Are there any good explanations for why the violence has so sharply increased? Is there something driving drug profits up at the moment?

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

i got in a big argt once with a friend about drug legalization, my points being basically that making something illegal doesn't erase demand, so the "business model" of suppliers necessarily involves violence; and that our strategy for the past 50-odd years has to be considered a failure, so why not try something else that seems to have worked ok in other places.

the counter-argument was basically "you watch the wire"

goole, Friday, 27 August 2010 20:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

GBX just asked me to post this link. I actually had it open already in another tab. It's insane:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_homicides_in_Ciudad_Ju%C3%A1rez

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

In September 2009, 18 patients at a drug rehabilitation clinic called El Aliviane were massacred in a turf battle.

What does this even mean? OOH it makes it sound like the turf battle just happened to take place on the property of the clinic, OTOH "massacre" suggests deliberately killing the patients but doesn't sound like a "turf battle".

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah that particular aspect of this is nuts, E.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

i have several particularly sharp and otherwise decent friends who indulge in the odd bit of cocaine use, and what can you really say? saying stuff like this comes off as preachy and playing right into the hands of those who want to keep drugs illegal, one could argue. and yet...no.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

The situation in Juarez nuts and ridiculous that more attention hasn't been paid to it. I think Jennifer Lopez made a movie about it a couple years ago called "Boderlands" iirc but I don't ever remember seeing it in theaters and suspect it went straight to video.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

what proportion of american drug consumption is "the odd bit of cocaine use" vs. crack addicts, who i don't feel comfortable blaming for any of this

the girl with the butt tattoo (harbl), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

have you read 2666 by roberto bolano? it takes place in a fictional version of juarez and this is one of the main threads the novel focuses on. it's really grim.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 20:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

How does what's going on now compare to what went on in Colombia/Miami in the 80s? Because I seem to remember that what happened then was the result of a price spike which in turn was the result of an enforcement crackdown.

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

Omar - I have not but I will do. The whole thing fascinates me because it's just so unbelievable.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

This is all worth reading: http://www.theawl.com/author/john-murray

C0L1N B..., Friday, 27 August 2010 21:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Last week in Ciudad Juarez, the Federal Police received an emergency call from a payphone explaining that a police officer had been shot and was lying wounded on the Avenue 16 de Septiembre, a street named for the day of Mexican independence from the Spanish. Several federal police officers and an emergency team of paramedics arrived to tend to the injured officer. A TV crew arrived on the scene around the same time. As the officers and doctors gathered around the body to assess the damage, nearby members of the Juarez cartel used a cell phone to detonate a bomb hidden in a parked car at the intersection. The blast killed two Federales, a doctor and an emergency technician, and left 9 other people wounded from shrapnel.

sheesh

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

has anyone read the charles bowden ciudad juarez books? they're on my list, as i've read all of his other books (down by the river is esp. good) but i haven't read them yet. i think he has two?

i've had many (too many to count) students whose lives have been affected by this shit.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

No! Amanda can you email me some book recs? Or put them here? I'll get the one you mentioned. I've only read news articles on it but never any full books.

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

have you read 2666 by roberto bolano? it takes place in a fictional version of juarez and this is one of the main threads the novel focuses on. it's really grim.

― ('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:58 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Those 200odd pages of detailed descriptions of murder victims was the most intense thing i've ever read.

Unfortunately I know little-to-nothing about the situation going on, so I don't really know what to say other than f this world

a hoy hoy, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

one woman did an entire semester's worth of speeches about growing up in a town where drug lords bought the bridges, paved the roads, rebuilt the schools, and imposed a strict 9pm curfew on everyone who lived there. violators of the curfew were all shot and killed.

here's one

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

one woman did an entire semester's worth of speeches about growing up in a town where drug lords bought the bridges, paved the roads, rebuilt the schools, and imposed a strict 9pm curfew on everyone who lived there. violators of the curfew were all shot and killed.

wow, Amanda

horseshoe, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

gonna go seek that book out, thanks LL

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah, it was intense.

not about ciudad juarez, and a little dated, but really well written and interesting

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

glad this is finally a thread. it's astounding how little public attention this gets.

the counter-argument was basically "you watch the wire"

I felt like the wire could have done this better...haven't seen the episodes recently but I remember the drug-zone experienment worked *so* perfectly, was *so* successful that it was just sorta absurd.

iatee, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

How does what's going on now compare to what went on in Colombia/Miami in the 80s? Because I seem to remember that what happened then was the result of a price spike which in turn was the result of an enforcement crackdown.

I don't think the death tolls were anywhere in today's range

iatee, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/aug/12/quiet-shift-mexicos-drug-war/

It all started with something that is by now horrifyingly routine: a YouTube video of the gory execution of a Mexican policeman by a gang of narcotraficantes. Posted on July 22, it begins with the interrogation of the policeman, who was from the northern state of Durango, by masked gangsters employed, in this case, by one of Mexico’s most powerful trafficking groups, the Zetas. Such interrogations have been circulated on the Internet before, and, as here, they often end in death. However, in the course of this particular video the policeman stated that the director of a federal prison in Durango was in the habit of releasing and arming certain prisoners at night, so that they could commit murders aimed, broadly speaking, at the Zetas. The recent massacre of seventeen people attending a birthday party in the neighboring state of Coahuila was the work of these temporarily sprung assassins, the policeman said, as were two other mass killings earlier this year.

goole, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

eh, i think the scenes of hamsterdam at night were p horrific, also there was still murder and death (rip johnny). the open prostitution freaked me out more than the drugs though.

a hoy hoy, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

another student actually taught me about the zetas a few years ago. i had never heard of them, and she was from nuevo laredo, so she grew up around a LOT of drug-fueled violence.

this is a book bowden coauthored with an artist/architect? i would rather read the other one, but would like to see this one

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

my first experiences with learning about how the drug trade affects people beyond the users and sellers were when i was in colombia (bogota) in 1996, which is also the year that colombia was 'decertified' by the us in their cooperation in the "war on drugs"

what a farce that was

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

to answer harbl's q, i imagine casual, semi-regular, or recreational cocaine use makes up most of the use in this country, more than the use by addicts? i could be vv wrong. who knows about crack, though...

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

This was talked about all the time in the Las Cruces/El Paso area...I forget it's not on everyone else's radar. My brother who lived in Juarez for a couple years says this stuff is "overblown" but I think he was referring to some of the more seemingly hyperbolic ideas that were around like "and they will always make a necklace out of your dried nipples" and not the situation in general. Actually, I should ask what he meant by that at all, he was on a mission at the time & not even allowed to read the news.

sharkless dick stick (Abbbottt), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

gonna go seek that book out, thanks LL

― ('_') (omar little), Friday, August 27, 2010 5:11 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

same - thank you

o sh!t a ˁ˚ᴥ˚ˀ (ENBB), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

it is hard to understand how anyone could read any of these stories and think this is 'overblown'. I mean, jeez, imagine if we found 72 bodies somewhere in america.

iatee, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

well it's just like this situation didn't really hit the national news heavy until those people from the embassy were killed

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

A lot of the violence in the city has been characterized by this kind of symbolism. Bodies have been dumped on many occasions in lots and playgrounds near schools, with children gathering around the crime scene to watch as police bag and remove the dead. Drug rehab clinics have been the scenes of mass murders. People are shot down in broad daylight during the normal hubub of everyday life, on main streets and in restaurants. Considering this, it's clear that what's happening isn't just a war between rival cartels, but a campaign of terror against the local population. The murdered groom's father conveyed perfectly the effect of this kind of violence to the El Paso Times: "I'm confused, frustrated and in despair. My wife, she is devastated." There really aren't any better emotions you could hope to inspire in a population you're trying to control.

[...]

A week before Easter, typewritten messages spread around Porvenir that anyone who hadn't left the area by Easter Sunday would be killed. Citizens packed up and left in droves. While no such large scale attack ever came, the assault on the social climate of the community was enough. Residents were threatened with death on the most holy day of the Catholic calendar. Like this week's wedding murders, the sanctuary of religion was directly challenged when the main church in town was burned to the ground on Good Friday.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

I felt like the wire could have done this better...haven't seen the episodes recently but I remember the drug-zone experienment worked *so* perfectly, was *so* successful that it was just sorta absurd.

― iatee, Friday, August 27, 2010 5:14 PM Bookmark

Wait what? This is not what happened at all.

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

i was searching for a picture of Renssellaer Lee's White Labyrinth: Cocaine and Political Power, but all I found was this:

Surely things have been written since these books about cocaine and the Andean region in the 80s/90s, but those are the ones I'm most familiar with.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

okay I remember it being a grimey area but basically just turning into some nice market economy where people didn't shoot each other

xp

iatee, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

smoke local pot. and leave everything else alone.

^^^this is how I roll. thankfully in the Bay Area local weed is abundant. always thought cocaine was morally indefensible for all kinds of reasons, the trade being one of them.

I drink your milksteak (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

One thing that fascinates me is how the cocaine industry, the heroin industry, and the meth industry are so different from each other. Marijuana is another story because it is a plant and doesn't require the heavy processing or chemical component that the other drugs require in order to be put onto the market. I agree wholeheartedly with Scott and Shakey in the "buy local weed, avoid everything else" philosophy.

No one asked, but Methland is a very readable book about how greedy companies, declining farmtowns, waning industry, and an influx of immigrant workers took its toll on the people (and law enforcement) of one Iowa town.

The writing is VERY annoying at times, but the book's content is interesting.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

perhaps i'm incredibly naive but i would like to believe that IRL friends or ilxors i've seen who have bragged about using coke (and other drugs with morally indefensible industries producing them) on other threads might read stuff like this and decide to back off for those reasons.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah, don't do coke, ppl

goole, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

and listen i've seen people i *like* here who have mentioned it, like they do it occasionally, and it kinda breaks my heart y'all.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

i feel more strongly about this than i do about meat, produce, diamonds, sweatshops, pretty much anything
i dumped a bf once for doing coke at a party in front of me and to this day i feel good about it
f u dude, knowing what you know
hope you had fun

by nature i am not a tyrant, but this stuff is so violent and pervasive and affects the lives of so many innocent people. it's just super fucked up.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

otms

iatee, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

The friends I have who are most likely to use cocaine also seem most likely to be amoral about these kinds of things.

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

funny how that works

I drink your milksteak (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

there's no complexity here, like it's not 'should I boycott israeli companies because I think the government is evil?' - I mean you are literally funneling money to mass murderers

iatee, Friday, 27 August 2010 21:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

Exactly, you are directly paying terrible people to kill other people so that they can bring you the very thing for which you are paying.

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

this "hand-wringing" may elicit some eye-rolls but w/e

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

"Hi, I'd like a large pizza with anchovies, pepperoni, mushrooms, and please brutally kill any other pizza deliverymen you see, and their families, along the way"

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

"Well don't get all MORALISTIC with me!"

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 21:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

i have a lot of sympathy for addicts too, i get it, i just wish people would know how far the tentacles of the product they're buying/selling reach. it always goes further than most people think.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 22:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's funny because while cocaine itself is dud imo, if it were legal i'd be mostly okay with it. of course i'd still think it was kind of annoying and it would lead to a lot more "casually mentioning your illicit activities" stories than one already hears in one's life, but i wouldn't have many moral objections. and i tend to think the health concerns are a lesser issue than the ones we're discussing here.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 22:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

i feel bad because i've never done it and would like to try it the once, and thus would carry on the regular joe trade and so now i'm not so sure.

a hoy hoy, Friday, 27 August 2010 22:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

of course -- i don't care about the substance itself the same way i don't care about, say, mcdonald's chicken mcnuggets. i wouldn't eat them, but other people are welcome to. it's just that they're not getting little kids shot and killed, making shitty violent people rich, or ruining local economies (quite as badly).

it's the business, not the product that bothers me.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 22:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

to rephrase, i hate the game, not the player

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 27 August 2010 22:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think the scolding "it's all bad for you!" nature of the anti-drug campaigns have not had any effect whatsoever, really. i think anyone who knows people who have done drugs and have not become addicts (which is to say, most people) would have evidence to suggest that the "you take drugs and you will DIE ON THE SPOT" nature of the campaigns were overstated. i'm not sure the moral argument would work, either, because moral concerns don't usually fly well with "people who just like to have a good time" or w/e.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 22:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

anti-drug campaigns have historically (ie for the past 100 years or so) been so full of the most egregious lies and misinformation that it's a bit "boy who cried wolf" at this point. nobody believes any of the bullshit and they aren't about to start.

I drink your milksteak (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 August 2010 22:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

by which I mean even if the US gov't anti-drug ads were all of a sudden all about the actual human costs of the drug trade (mass murder, etc.) no one would bat an eye - the source is totally suspect and not credible

I drink your milksteak (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 August 2010 22:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm a tiny bit ambivialent about this since I'm not a big fan of cocaine, especially now that I'm in my dotage, but feel that what with my penchant for liquor and weed, I shouldn't be too censorious about other people's favorite mind-altering substances. Liquor is arguably far more destructive globally than coke and that one time, when we tried to ban it here in the US, surprise, we engendered a blood-thirsty milieu that shot each other full of holes with tommy guns and diversified into lots of other illegal ventures and gave birth to whole generation who cast a jaded eye on the law, generally. Yes, coco leaves need to be processed to become cocaine or crack but with out the basic interdiction, the essential value of the product would be far, far lower. Yes, in our modern semi-dystopic world, it's nice to get your weed from up the street and your liquor from a local winery or distillery but to belabor the point to much is also to either force most people to forego tea or coffee or sugar but to engage in some kind of romantic notion that global trade can be bypassed when, in reality, it may need to be adjusted or tweaked or regulated and the taste for stimulants like coke is hardly limited to just North America so even a thoroughly 'virtuous' US wouldn't entirely prevent gangs from killing to make their profits, especially if they had to send it even farther and at greater risk.

Un peu d'Eire, ça fait toujours Dublin (Michael White), Friday, 27 August 2010 22:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

US gov't anti-drug ads were all of a sudden all about the actual human costs of the drug trade (mass murder, etc.)

Tbf, they have noted that the illegal drug trade funds violence and terrorism, much like the counterfeit goods trade does.

Un peu d'Eire, ça fait toujours Dublin (Michael White), Friday, 27 August 2010 22:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

regime change starts at home so to speak iirc so maybe we could set an example.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 22:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

legalization is one answer. but its only one part of the puzzle. for profit prison industry - a growth industry that wants to KEEP growing - is another part of it. and law enforcement in some ways depends on drug money to fund themselves! and yeah there is plenty of blood sugar and blood coffee and blood sneakers, etc, etc, out there.

scott seward, Friday, 27 August 2010 23:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yes, coco leaves need to be processed to become cocaine or crack but with out the basic interdiction, the essential value of the product would be far, far lower. Yes, in our modern semi-dystopic world, it's nice to get your weed from up the street and your liquor from a local winery or distillery but to belabor the point to much is also to either force most people to forego tea or coffee or sugar but to engage in some kind of romantic notion that global trade can be bypassed when, in reality, it may need to be adjusted or tweaked or regulated and the taste for stimulants like coke is hardly limited to just North America so even a thoroughly 'virtuous' US wouldn't entirely prevent gangs from killing to make their profits, especially if they had to send it even farther and at greater risk.

Also, this kind of run-on sentence reminds me exactly of how some people sound on coke.

Un peu d'Eire, ça fait toujours Dublin (Michael White), Friday, 27 August 2010 23:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

um, i guess i was trying to say that the drug war is a BIG business. in a capitalist country that thrives on businesses getting bigger. and the profits keep coming in as long as the bloody mess continues. or am i just a raving loon.

scott seward, Friday, 27 August 2010 23:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

the only argument that is often made is yes, yes there are other things in the world which cause pain and suffering. it is quite bad here in l.a. w/r/t drug violence in places as well, such as "legal" (there is a question about how legal they are since they get raided by the feds) weed dispensaries are knocked off by gangs and clerks working there get killed, maybe b/c the gangs view them as competition?

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 23:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

one of the arguments, i should say

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 23:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'm not saying anything that anyone doesn't know. it has hurt my heart for many years. so many dead and locked up and gone and so much suffering and basically it just gets worse every decade.

scott seward, Friday, 27 August 2010 23:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

i don't think, btw, that the answer is to say "well there are other bad things in the world, too!" because this is a particularly nasty thing, so violent, so reprehensible, and i would love to see worldwide legalization of every illegal drug. people who want them are going to get them anyway.

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 23:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

Not sure if I exactly followed Michael White's post but I don't think the suffering in the coffee, sugar, tea trades are quite on the level of drug gang violence, not to mention that there is, e.g., fair trade, shade grown coffee available. I mean I'm often heard espousing the same sort of "Shit is complicated, everything is global, everything results in suffering" kind of talk, but I think I can draw a line at a product that directly results in so much killing.

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 August 2010 23:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'm not sure i follow the logic of this conversation.

i am curious whether the de facto legalization of weed in california is going to lead to a drop in arrests for meth, coke, heroin, etc. we'll see after the data shakes out (maybe in 5 or 10 years?) i guess ...

moonship journey to baja, Friday, 27 August 2010 23:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

what i'm not sure about is whether people agree that legalizing cocaine will reduce violence or disagree

moonship journey to baja, Friday, 27 August 2010 23:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

we don't know for sure but chances are quite likely "yes"

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 23:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah does coffee or nikes end up with 72 ppl graves on the regular?

a hoy hoy, Friday, 27 August 2010 23:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

wiki article isn't v. in depth and i cannot be bothered right now to look further but portugal legalised everything in 2001 and:

A study by Glenn Greenwald (commissioned by the libertarian Cato Institute) found that in the five years after the start of decriminalization, illegal drug use by teenagers had declined, the rate of HIV infections among drug users had dropped, deaths related to heroin and similar drugs had been cut by more than half, and the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction had doubled, while usage in the EU continued to increase, including in states with "hard-line drug policies."[3]

Since Portugal's policy reform in 2001, the rates of overdoses and HIV cases have been reduced significantly.[9][10][11]

a hoy hoy, Friday, 27 August 2010 23:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

Not sure if I exactly followed Michael White's post but I don't think the suffering in the coffee, sugar, tea trades are quite on the level of drug gang violence, not to mention that there is, e.g., fair trade, shade grown coffee available. I mean I'm often heard espousing the same sort of "Shit is complicated, everything is global, everything results in suffering" kind of talk, but I think I can draw a line at a product that directly results in so much killing.

― Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Friday, August 27, 2010 11:08 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

to buy "good" products to assuage your bourgeois guilt is not a correct method of addressing an unjust system. the correct way to address an unjust system is to tear it down by force and replace it with a better one. democracy does not work, has not worked, and will not ever work. decmocracy is a farce in the face of true collectivist might.

rage for the machine (banaka), Friday, 27 August 2010 23:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

Doesn't mention drug related violence, gang related etc. but you have to assume that unless they decide to shoot every doctor in Portugal, they automatically lose the war for terrority and thus less deaths would have occured over it.

a hoy hoy, Friday, 27 August 2010 23:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

banaka glitches

Matt Armstrong, Friday, 27 August 2010 23:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

OT on the drug thing but re juarez, this http://www.mizzworthy.com/2010/07/mac-for-rodarte-words-fail-me.html caused quite a lot of outrage on beauty blogs a few weeks ago. i wanted to post something abt it at the time so here it is i guess. i read 2666 earlier this year and have been following related things.

k'naamean (zvookster), Friday, 27 August 2010 23:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

ugh

('_') (omar little), Friday, 27 August 2010 23:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeh. MAC (eventually) said they were renaming the collection and donating profits to related causes so that's a good outcome.

another thing that i recoiled from was finding that the idea hinted at in the novel abt some of these murders being the product of elite parties where these women are basically used & killed for sport, is an actual theory put forward by an investigative journalist who did early work on the killings.

all off-topic tho pretty much, the topic of the ethics of drug use is a good one.

k'naamean (zvookster), Saturday, 28 August 2010 00:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

essentially it is suggested that juarez is such a fucked-up place that those who want to rape and murder can get away with it pretty easily. and considering how the police force is overwhelmed, it almost makes sense (unfortunately) that murders not solved within a couple of days are shelved and forgotten. it's thought to be a combination of serial killer types and evil drug cartel mfers (and really, they're all serial killers, they just have different m.o.'s than "normal" serial killers...)

('_') (omar little), Saturday, 28 August 2010 00:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

hee hee hee "democracy never worked"

moonship journey to baja, Saturday, 28 August 2010 00:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

can we change the title of this thread?

My anus is bleeding call 911 (Drugs A. Money), Saturday, 28 August 2010 05:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

+1

156, Saturday, 28 August 2010 06:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

good thread

jaymc, Saturday, 28 August 2010 08:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

the mind just totally reels when confronted with this kind of stuff...the stuff in 2666 was intense but I kind of coped with it alright bcz I already kinda knew what to expect and therefore viewed the whole thing in a sort of detachment. Confronted with the actuality of this stuff, though, and I just want to shut down. I am infected with the same complete hopelessness which must be a fact of daily life for those in Ciudad Juarez whenever I open this thread. I just think "This must stop", I can't think anything else, and yet...

courtesy winter (Drugs A. Money), Saturday, 28 August 2010 16:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

re: buying local weed: i hear there is a trend where one of the criminal orgs like the hells go to every cities and villages on the territory to meet every local dealers to impose their org as the sole provider. the dealers can't buy locally produced weed : the hells buy it, send it 2 the urban center where it is redistributed through the territory. it's like the criminal version of the kind of problem the local food movement got vs the global corporate model.

Sébastien, Saturday, 28 August 2010 19:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE67T06L20100830?

J0rdan S., Monday, 30 August 2010 02:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Lady Gaga says using drugs like cocaine helped her find her musical identity.

The pop diva made several candid statements about her history of drug use in a recent interview with Q Magazine reprinted by MTV.com Friday.

"Using drugs, I really figured out the art I wanted to make and was inspired," said Gaga. "Some people find inspiration in dark places. I guess I'm one of them. What always made me different is that if I was doing drugs I was also making music. I wasn't just doing drugs."

Lady Gaga says she now uses cocaine "maybe a couple of times a year".

meanwhile Leal's 4-year-old daughter was slightly wounded in the attack, a spokesman said.

('_') (omar little), Monday, 30 August 2010 03:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

tonights mad men sucked

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, 30 August 2010 06:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

Does anyone know what the drug war death stats were like before Calderon was president? Because I wonder if the stats directly track the increased drug war by the government.

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Monday, 30 August 2010 06:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think the increase coincided with his sending of the military to try to put an end to the cartel violence.

('_') (omar little), Monday, 30 August 2010 15:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

Charles Bowden has another book called Shadow in the City that would appeal to those of you interested in the law enforcement side of the drug trade. It's about one detective and a huge bust, reads like fiction (as does much of his writing).

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Monday, 30 August 2010 15:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

another mayor was killed yesterday

max, Monday, 30 August 2010 15:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

since the mexican drug war started up in earnest in Dec '06, 28,000 have been killed. in that same time period, based on what i roughly estimate from a site devoted to keeping track of casualties in iraq, around 35,000 iraqis have been killed (civilians and military.)

('_') (omar little), Monday, 30 August 2010 16:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

can the joek thread title be changed plz

Danny Dyer (dan m), Monday, 30 August 2010 16:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

thx

Danny Dyer (dan m), Monday, 30 August 2010 16:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

np

Trouble-Making Foods (HI DERE), Monday, 30 August 2010 16:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

now the gaga thing i quoted last night is kind of the attitude north of the border towards the problems south of it in microcosm, meaning people don't seem to care nor do they really even think about it.

('_') (omar little), Monday, 30 August 2010 16:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

not everyone mind you, obviously not.

('_') (omar little), Monday, 30 August 2010 16:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

good thread. 2666 was an incredible book & i definitely recommend it to anyone thinking through this

curious where financial resources towards alleviating this could even be directed

NOT FUNNY NEEDS MORE GUCCI (deej), Monday, 30 August 2010 16:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

some problems u cant throw money at?

NOT FUNNY NEEDS MORE GUCCI (deej), Monday, 30 August 2010 16:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

to answer harbl's q, i imagine casual, semi-regular, or recreational cocaine use makes up most of the use in this country, more than the use by addicts?

i imagine its similar to the liquor industry where a small % of habitual users account for a large % of sales. (iirc its something like ~5/40% w/booze)

"people just need to stop doing drugs" seems like a p retarded way to approach this. theres a good bbc documentary on the cartels & shorty guzman/sinaloa in particular that details how in certain parts of the country the cartels essentially are the state. w/o a change in u.s. drug policy you're still funding both sides in a civil war - since criminalization is what makes drugs so profitable to traffic - & the larger/systematic rationale for conflict between the cartels & the state still exists. demand reduction would weaken the cartels but drugs aren't their only source of income & they're deeply entrenched in mexican life.

their are plenty of non-drug related things that directly contribute to the violence as well. the arms industry/the nra have spent how much money derailing any attempts to control the flow of u.s. weapons into mexico? & the maquiladoras would still exist w/o the drug trade, as would human trafficking. u.s. trade & immigration policy is just as complicit in creating the current situation imo

Lamp, Monday, 30 August 2010 17:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh btw thread title change sucks

moonship journey to baja, Monday, 30 August 2010 17:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

also that charles bowden book is really good

Lamp, Monday, 30 August 2010 17:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah we really should have more shitty joke threads about situations involving widespread mass murder

Danny Dyer (dan m), Monday, 30 August 2010 17:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

people will ~never~ stop doing drugs, so it will continue until the governments of the world collectively decide to legalize (lol), which will also never happen in our lifetimes.

('_') (omar little), Monday, 30 August 2010 17:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

ftr I think the only "joke" in either thread title was Tom making fun of vahid and me claiming naming rights for the conversation and neither one of us was actually making light of what is happening in Mexico so try not taking out understandable anger at the situation on ppl who aren't mocking it or contributing to it

Trouble-Making Foods (HI DERE), Monday, 30 August 2010 17:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

"people just need to stop doing drugs" seems like a p retarded way to approach this.

Strawman. No one is saying this is a solution, let alone a solution unto itself.

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Monday, 30 August 2010 18:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

suggest banned, danny dyer

moonship journey to baja, Monday, 30 August 2010 18:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

Strawman. No one is saying this is a solution, let alone a solution unto itself.

current u.s. policy does?????

Lamp, Monday, 30 August 2010 18:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

Well, current US policy is not just that people should stop doing drugs, it's that massive quasi-military operations should be undertaken and/or supported against drug cartels. Obviously a failure, but more than just-say-no.

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Monday, 30 August 2010 18:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

there are some halfhearted efforts at eradication and interdiction, but not much

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Monday, 30 August 2010 18:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

also that certification bs -- what a load of horseshit that is. do we still certify/decertify countries based on their cooperation with our "war on drugs"?

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Monday, 30 August 2010 18:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

from a may article:

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Monday, 30 August 2010 18:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

headline says it all


U.S. drug war has met none of its goals
After 40 years and $1 trillion, drug use is rampant and violence pervasive

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37134751/

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Monday, 30 August 2010 18:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

suggest banned, danny dyer

meh

Danny Dyer (dan m), Monday, 30 August 2010 18:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

I mean deflect all you want but keeping stupid jokes in the thread title is pretty disrespectful considering the turn the thread has taken.

Danny Dyer (dan m), Monday, 30 August 2010 18:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

that gaga quote is revolting
i wonder if she would agree with the guy who works double shifts at the perdue plant who does meth so that he can work double shifts
"i'm not just doing drugs, i'm doing drugs that help my work!"

what a dipshit

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Monday, 30 August 2010 18:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

there are some halfhearted efforts at eradication and interdiction, but not much

― The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Monday, August 30, 2010 2:45 PM Bookmark

Hundreds of millions of dollars a year in military aid to Colombia alone is "not much"? You can call it failed, futile, etc. but we spend a little too much money to call it"half-hearted"

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Monday, 30 August 2010 19:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

imo: someone should make a meme image transposing gaga quote w/ newspaper headlines on teh violence. harness gaga hate for something more productive

NOT FUNNY NEEDS MORE GUCCI (deej), Monday, 30 August 2010 19:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

I really didn't think I'd get back to feel "Poker Face" levels of contempt for Lady Gaga but there you go.

Trouble-Making Foods (HI DERE), Monday, 30 August 2010 19:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

Oddly enough I picked up Pedro Paramo by Juan Rulfo just a couple of days ago...(nothing to do with drug wars it gives the impression of a suffocation of a people/landscape)

xyzzzz__, Monday, 30 August 2010 19:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

we may be throwing money at it, but what we're doing with that money seems pretty halfhearted to me. i have mixed feelings about funding the military in colombia. if we expect the existing structures to know what to do with the money, or to handle it ethically, i would say that's a weak halfhearted attempt.

not that i have any better ideas, mind you, but i would hardly call what we're doing to eradicate/interdict the actual drug shipments a fully invested holistic approach at this problem that is deeply embedded in the global economy.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Monday, 30 August 2010 19:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

this is a problem that folks that lady gaga can easily ignore b/c it happens to a class of people who are not on their radar

('_') (omar little), Monday, 30 August 2010 19:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't think there's really such a thing as an adequate plan to eradicate cocaine worldwide. It's just too easy to grow, transport, hide, move, etc. The best thing you can do is de-criminalize to lower the price and minimize the incentive for violence.

Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Monday, 30 August 2010 19:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

cocaine is not easy to grow because it does not grow; coca is easy to grow, but the processing coca --> cocaine is actually pretty complicated iirc

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Monday, 30 August 2010 19:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's way cheaper than it was 20-25 years ago and it's, not surprisingly, all over the place
the violence persists as well

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Monday, 30 August 2010 19:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

i suppose you can't stop everyone from doing cocaine but perhaps people can have the decency not to brag about it as if it's a badge of honor or a rite of passage, considering the high human cost of the trade.

('_') (omar little), Monday, 30 August 2010 19:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

people? have decency? sadly, this is unlikely.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Monday, 30 August 2010 20:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

I really hope I don't derail this thread, but I have a couple of questions:

1) are the Ciudad Juarez murders--which, in my understanding, remain unsolve--counted in the "28000-since-2006" statistics? I thought that those had been happening since the mid-90s and seem to be an important facet of this issue while at the same time being its own phenomenon...?

2) from what I've heard Southern Texas is also being terrorized by gang- and drug-violence, particularly from the MS 13 gang...there has to be some kind of connection between what's going on down there and what's happening in Mexico, right?

rotting-month story (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 13:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think they do count but they are there own phenomenon. i tend to think the take in 2666 is probably pretty grimly accurate. from everything i have read, it's not like in the u.s. where being snatched off the streets--even in a major city--is so unlikely that you'll likely never meet someone who ends up with that fate. there i think it's a matter of how many women you know have been killed or something. i feel like that was a quote i heard somewhere at some point. when you consider that in a city of 1.5 million, some residents suggest thousands of women have been killed in recent years, that's just its own issue. but i imagine there is considerable overlap with cartel violence. any group who is willing to toss grenades into crowds or kill rehab patients to make a point is quite likely to give in to their worst impulses in other areas, especially in a city where the police are increasingly powerless.

('_') (omar little), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

everybody here is strictly-and-only fair trade chocolate right? no "I couldn't resist a snickers" and shit? because child slavery is as bad as anything the cocaine cartels are up to imo

gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

Right. I wasn't trying to say that the situation in Texas was nearly as bad, just that it was bad, and that badness was due to what I figured was cartel violence...but really I know next to nothing about the drug and gang situation in southern Texas...as far as Ciudad Juarez, I was under the strong impression that the cartels were probably esponsible for that as well, but again, that's been going on since I think the mid-90s, so that would kind of clash against statistics that have anything to do with Calderon's rise to power & his subsequent military initiatives...

rotting-month story (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

i don't know if there's been a dramatic increase in the murder of women in juarez during that period or anything, but maybe the open war street violence has been the cause of the rise in the homicide rate and the other murders have remained the same as they ever were?

('_') (omar little), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

everybody here is strictly-and-only fair trade chocolate right? no "I couldn't resist a snickers" and shit? because child slavery is as bad as anything the cocaine cartels are up to imo

I generally avoid chocolate because I like other sweets more; I try to be "fair trade" about everything I buy but I don't control all of the shopping.

Squirrel! (HI DERE), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

i don't really eat much chocolate but i usually end up with fair trade chocolate, i don't even have to double check. same goes for coffee as well. i had a milky way bar a few years ago, i guess.

('_') (omar little), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

actually haerosmith I think if anything is counterproductive it's the idea that buying "Good" products will keep your hands clean; that's why I am kind of nonplussed about the Gaga-baiting around her...I don't have a problem about coke-bragging turning La Lechera's or omar's stomach, but at the same time, "buying local weed" seems like negative altruism at best; it keeps one's conscience clean, but does fuck all for anyone else. I doubt it truly troubles in the afterlife any of those 72 migrant workers whether or not either Lady Gaga or an unemployed gas station attendant from Homer, Michigan directly contributed to the wealth of the druglords who ordered their deaths.

That being said I might stop eating chocolate. I don't really eat it too much anyways.

rotting-month story (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

all we can do in our lives is try our best not to do things that directly fuck up the lives of people, even if they're people we don't see, interact with, or are thousands of miles away. i'm sure we all do that somehow, the connections between nations and corporations are too complex for that not to occur all over the place. but the least we can do is call it where we blatantly see it happening and stop contributing to it.

('_') (omar little), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^ exactly

Squirrel! (HI DERE), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

They don't use kids to make Cheetos, do they?

landover menace (kkvgz), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

nah, pretty sure it's like heavily-processed corn and some chemicals

Squirrel! (HI DERE), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

Oh shit, they do contain pork enzymes though. Fuck.

landover menace (kkvgz), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

all we can do in our lives is try our best not to do things that directly fuck up the lives of people, even if they're people we don't see, interact with, or are thousands of miles away. i'm sure we all do that somehow, the connections between nations and corporations are too complex for that not to occur all over the place. but the least we can do is call it where we blatantly see it happening and stop contributing to it.

― ('_') (omar little), Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:38 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah but see if we're going to concern ourselves with this kind of thing then I think there comes a point where not doing cocaine can only be seen as a good first step.

rotting-month story (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

yes

('_') (omar little), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 15:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

unfortunately all my ideas involve the U.S. annexing northern Mexico, which:

1) is the worst idea ever.
2) is less likely than gettin eveyone in the world to either stop using cocaine or to legalize it.
3) begs the question whether or not the US are really that much more well-equipped to deal with something like this. (again, southern Texas, though one also only needs to look at Iraq)
4) is an impossibly imperialistic way of approaching the problem.
5) does nothing at all for the rest of the atrocities committed worldwide due to the systematic corruption of capitalism and our country's unreasonable demand for creature comforts.
6) ignores the fact that our country has enough problems of its own.

rotting-month story (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 16:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

so yeah sorry I got nothing so far.

rotting-month story (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 16:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's all baby steps which may lead nowhere, especially since a major decrease in drug violence in mexico and colombia might be reliant upon decriminalization of drugs by not just the u.s. but many other countries.

('_') (omar little), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 16:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

i wonder what percentage of cartel money is made from north and south america? i imagine that while it's not incredibly easy to get drugs across the border, it's probably a lot more difficult to get drugs overseas.

('_') (omar little), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 16:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

i imagine that while it's not incredibly easy to get drugs across the border, it's probably a lot more difficult to get drugs overseas.

plenty of european/mediterranean/asian syndicates working with the cartels

gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 16:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

in a spirit of brotherly cooperation

gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 16:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah true

('_') (omar little), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 16:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

whether it's in the very large historical trends toward capitalization, toward gov't bureaucratization, or toward greater justice, i think in 50 or 100 years it will seem nuts that this huge multinational industry was conducted entirely illegally.

or not, i dunno. it could be the ideology supporting 'the drug war' will hollow out and seem more and more ridiculous to more and more people, but it'll continue on anyway, since no political actor wants to take the risk of tipping it over.

goole, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 16:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

I see this as exactly the kind of thing that politicians would use to prop The Drug War up...

I'm actually for decriminalization, though I'm uncertain as to its impact.

rotting-month story (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 16:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'm all for it esp. since anyone who wants drugs can get them at any time and the impact of law enforcement is pretty negligible despite the pictures of DEA agents smiling in front of bags of cocaine. i figure they just keep pushing more and more across the border, assuming some of it will get caught, and not particularly caring if it does since they just keep making it and keep pushing it over.

('_') (omar little), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 16:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

Been reading more about legalisation in Portugal and it's pretty startling and seems like the only rational option-

On 1 July 2001, Portugal decriminalised the possession of all drugs, including heroin and cocaine. You can have and use as much as you like for your own needs, and if you are caught, the police might refer you to a rehab programme, but you will never get a criminal record. (Supplying and selling remains illegal.) The prohibitionists predicted a catastrophic rise in addiction, and even I – an instinctive legaliser – was nervous.

Now we know: overall drug use actually fell a little. As a major study by Glenn Greenwald for The Cato Institute found, among Portuguese teenagers the fall was fastest: 13-year-olds are four per cent less likely to use drugs, and 16-year-olds are six per cent less likely. As the iron law of prohibition predicts, the use of hard drugs has fallen fastest: heroin use has crashed by nearly 50 per cent among the young who were not yet addicted. The Portuguese have switched the billions that used to be spent chasing and jailing addicts to providing them with prescriptions and rehab. The number of people in drug treatment is now up by 147 per cent. Almost nobody in Portugal wants to go back. Indeed, many citizens want to take the next step: legalise supply too, and break the back of the gangs.

Portugal is no fluke. It turns out that wherever the drug laws are relaxed, drug use stays the same, or – where spending is switched to treatment – declines. Between 1972 and 1978, 11 US states decriminalised marijuana possession. The National Research Council found that the number of dope-smokers stayed the same. In Switzerland, a decade ago the government started providing legal centres where people could safely inject heroin – for free. Burglary rates fell by 60 per cent, and street homelessness ended. A study by The Lancet – one of the most respected medical journals in the world – found that the rate of people becoming new heroin addicts fell by 82 per cent. Why? Heroin addicts didn't need to recruit new addicts to sell to in order to feed their habit. The pyramid scheme of heroin addiction was broken.

So the drug war doesn't achieve its goal of reducing addiction. All it does achieve is horrific gang violence – and in some cases the cartels gut whole countries like Mexico and Afghanistan. It does unwittingly press people into using harder and more dangerous drugs. And it does waste tens of billions of dollars that could really reduce drug addiction, by spending it on treatment for addicts.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-accept-the-facts-ndash-and-end-this-futile-war-on-drugs-1818167.html

a hoy hoy, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 17:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

for the record:
i don't eat much chocolate, but when i do it's fancy fair trade chocolate (but i will eat someone else's choco chip cookies if it means being polite or not) no snickers, thanks. i drink fair trade coffee every goddamn day. it's true that occasionally i stop at dunkin donuts for a cup of blood diamonds, but it's rare.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 19:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't always eat chocolate, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis.

Max Armstrong (buzza), Tuesday, 31 August 2010 20:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

I just don't get the US at all - it's like, a country with whom you share hundreds of miles of border with is being completely destabilized by your policies and your response is to...do nothing? stick your head in the sand? idgi.

dayo, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 00:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's not just the US...and it's not just Mexico either...

rotting-month story (Drugs A. Money), Wednesday, 1 September 2010 00:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah that's the big problem there. every move is just baby steps in the right direction rather than a solve-all-problems move.

('_') (omar little), Thursday, 2 September 2010 00:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah I know. it's just that it's like, you live in a pretty nice house, you have a nice life. the house next door is a crackhouse. what are you gonna do, build a higher fence?

shorn_blond.avi (dayo), Thursday, 2 September 2010 00:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

sell yr kids crack so they don't have to fund the ppl nextdoor?

nakhchivan, Thursday, 2 September 2010 00:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

truth, plant coca leaf and marijuana plants in your own backyard.

shorn_blond.avi (dayo), Thursday, 2 September 2010 00:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

Looking for the US to make some pre-emptive military strikes in Mexican territory in 2013 or 2017, depending. A "national security imperative," yknow.

Donovan Dagnabbit (WmC), Thursday, 2 September 2010 00:41 (3 years ago) Permalink


nakhchivan, Thursday, 2 September 2010 00:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

one wonders what the cartels, being so used to power and wealth and the freedom to basically kill and rape at will, would do if there was some mass worldwide legalization movement. i would imagine they would attempt to maintain those in other ways? even if they did, i cannot imagine they would have anywhere near the level of influence or violence.

('_') (omar little), Thursday, 2 September 2010 00:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

they would resort to selling pirated DVDs

shorn_blond.avi (dayo), Thursday, 2 September 2010 00:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

that would take a while to happen xp

the cartels would rush for windfall profits and probably compete even more violently for whatever markets would remain after legalisation (kidnapping/protection etc, perhaps counterfeit pharmaceuticals)

nakhchivan, Thursday, 2 September 2010 01:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah this si precisely one of the reasons why I'm kind of dubious on the whole 'buy local weed' solution. I imagine druglords get nicer with less money in their pockets...

Consumerism is a weird, weird ontology.

rotting-month story (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, 2 September 2010 01:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

'imagne' = 'doubt'

rotting-month story (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, 2 September 2010 01:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

u sound like yr justifyin tbh

the embrace of waka flocka is v pertinent (deej), Thursday, 2 September 2010 01:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

iirc the point of not funding these dudes isnt to make them 'nicer'

the embrace of waka flocka is v pertinent (deej), Thursday, 2 September 2010 01:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

If the money dries up the crime and violence goes away.

Kerm, Thursday, 2 September 2010 01:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

Didn't see it linked earlier, but this New Yorker article from May seems to be a decent primer.

As far as why shoot up a rehab clinic, there's the sense (as Lechera said) that the gangs keep the streets clean and run the rehab centers in their region, so the centers can be turf and a symbol of pride and progress.

A Chart Hit of Some Sort (Eazy), Thursday, 2 September 2010 01:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

nothing to justify. i don't really care about whether or not people do coke; my focus is purely on the lives being lost in Mexico. Cartels getting meaner and increase in violence might be a regrettable side-effect for those who go with 'fair-trade' drugs, but it seems to me it would just a worsening of the problen (though admittedly its very possibly a problem that would necessarily worsen before it got better anyways)...

I guess I kind of feel that our responsibility in the matter extends beyond the kind of drugs we choose to use...

(and for the record I haven't done anything remotely cocaine-related since 2003)

rotting-month story (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, 2 September 2010 01:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

remotely cocaine-related = cocaine, crack, laced joints, etc.

rotting-month story (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, 2 September 2010 01:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

i know someone who always rhapsodizes about fair trade coffee but still does the occasional line of cocaine, which i think is kind of "funny."

('_') (omar little), Thursday, 2 September 2010 16:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

I know plenty of people who go on about the evils of coke but still bump lots of coke-rap.

Hubert Lolz (lpz), Thursday, 2 September 2010 17:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

out of sight, out of mind seems to be the mantra of the day

('_') (omar little), Thursday, 2 September 2010 20:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

:(

rotting-month story (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, 2 September 2010 20:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

A couple of questions I've been thinking about, dunno if they are worth asking but here goes-

1. I can understand that Portugal's problem was mostly heroin abuse and legal use is done in a doctors office, supervised, and not able to take any away or enough to od. But unlike heroin, cocaine is a party drug - if it was legalised, how would it be sold? No-one would care for a similar way to what i've read about this legal heroin use. Would you be able to go to a pharmacy to buy yr dose?

Ok just noticed the time and so its less a couple of questions more like one and run.

a hoy hoy, Thursday, 2 September 2010 20:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

Considering how differently different states treat alcohol sales, I would imagine it would be done differently depending on where one lives. We still have dry counties in the US! I grew up in Ohio thinking that every state had drive-thru liquor stores. Whoops.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Thursday, 2 September 2010 20:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

i wonder if there is an underground alcohol trade in those counties? it seems kind of pointless either way, you could drive one county over for your fix.

('_') (omar little), Thursday, 2 September 2010 20:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think that's what most people do but who knows -- maybe there are still moonshiners?

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Thursday, 2 September 2010 21:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

or they drive to ohio and use a handy-dandy drive thru liquor store and then drive home

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Thursday, 2 September 2010 21:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

a guy i know made moonshine and shot cans in the woods with a handgun (that was what he did all the time.) i think he was being ironic but eventually ended up all too sincere.

('_') (omar little), Thursday, 2 September 2010 21:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

I know plenty of people who go on about the evils of coke but still bump lots of coke-rap.

― Hubert Lolz (lpz), Thursday, 2 September 2010 17:30 (4 hours ago) Permalink

do you

the embrace of waka flocka is v pertinent (deej), Thursday, 2 September 2010 21:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

I was in a speakeasy in Kentucky a couple weeks ago.

Kerm, Thursday, 2 September 2010 21:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

I know plenty of people who go on about the evils of coke but still bump lots of coke-rap.

― Hubert Lolz (lpz), Thursday, 2 September 2010 17:30 (4 hours ago) Permalink

do you

― the embrace of waka flocka is v pertinent (deej), Thursday, September 2, 2010 9:49 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

Yeah.

Hubert Lolz (lpz), Friday, 3 September 2010 00:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

not to blow ur mind or anything but i know some ppl who go on abt the evils of religion but still bump a love supreme

zvookster, Friday, 3 September 2010 01:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

fuck will.i.am

a hoy hoy, Friday, 3 September 2010 05:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

I was genuinely shocked when I read a recent news article saying that the current war on drogs in Mexico has led to some 30,000 deaths.

The New Dirty Vicar, Friday, 3 September 2010 11:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

It's pretty fucking crazy. Murdering mayors, chiefs of police, army generals...

a Bud Light Chelada 22 oz. on a sort of a date (kkvgz), Friday, 3 September 2010 11:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

It's like a war, on drugs!

Kerm, Friday, 3 September 2010 11:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol

a Bud Light Chelada 22 oz. on a sort of a date (kkvgz), Friday, 3 September 2010 11:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

itsafuckingdisgrace.gif

nakhchivan, Friday, 3 September 2010 12:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

i know some ppl who go on about teh evils of drugs & watch the wire -- crazy!!

the embrace of waka flocka is v pertinent (deej), Saturday, 4 September 2010 23:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

its almost as if ... being aware of the underground drug trade makes u MORE aware of the huge cost

the embrace of waka flocka is v pertinent (deej), Saturday, 4 September 2010 23:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129752424

4 min npr story about arrest of "la barbie" (edgar valdez villareal of the beltran leyva cartel) -- apparently he made a videotaped statement during which he "squirmed" and called the zetas "filth"

Valdez says there was a meeting in Cuernavaca in 2007 where the top leadership of some the country’s most powerful traffickers agreed to a nonaggression pact. But Valdez says Guzman broke the deal in 2008 when he tried to take over the Juarez cartel’s base across the border from El Paso, Texas.

Valdez’s lawyer in Houston says all of the videotaped declarations by Valdez are from a script that Mexican federal police stuck in front of his client.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Friday, 10 September 2010 13:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

Has anyone else started reading the Bowden book yet? I've been reading it since Friday. I would put a choice quote in here, but there are too many. Highly recommended, but extremely and deeply depressing.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 13:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

Oh, and I just heard the mayor of Juarez on the radio saying that they're not having a big group gathering for Mexico's 200th birthday celebration, but they are having fireworks shot from 6 different places in the city so that people won't have to leave their homes to see them.

The story also said that 6,000 people have been killed in Juarez alone in the last 3 years.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 13:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

:(

i wish them hell and happiness (Drugs A. Money), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 13:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

If you can read Spanish, this is a really beautiful statement from the founder of the (first and only) juarez women's shelter
http://www.casa-amiga.org.mx/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=94&Itemid=114

She died in 2009 and I was disappointed to find that she has no wikipedia entry. Googling for her yielded the casa amiga website and a bunch of really disturbing beheading photos.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 14:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

btw happy mexican independence day, everyone

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 15 September 2010 14:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/09/17/mexico.journalist.killed/index.html?hpt=T2

journalists killed. possibility discussed: the gunman did not actually intend to kill them -- "sorry dudes we actually intended to kill a human-rights activist!"

('_') (omar little), Saturday, 18 September 2010 04:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

^^^ that is so goddamn sad. came here to post that.

dayo, Thursday, 21 October 2010 00:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

not to mention: the epic insanity regarding that jet skiing couple along the border who got shot up

rothko's chapel and waffles (omar little), Thursday, 21 October 2010 00:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

i really hope this police chief manages to survive her term

rothko's chapel and waffles (omar little), Thursday, 21 October 2010 00:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

theres a long article in this week's newyoker about the army office who became police chief in tijuana. it was depressing because it a) made clear that any 'gains' against the cartels are coming at horrific cost in lives and civil liberties and b) how much money the u.s. govt is spending on helping the mexican army to torture its own citizens in the war on drugs

there must be 51 ways to sb ilxor (Lamp), Thursday, 21 October 2010 00:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

murder city was easily one of the most depressing books i have ever read, and i have read A LOT of depressing books about latin america and depressing books about crime.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Thursday, 21 October 2010 00:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't think I can even keep up with the news on this anymore, it's just so fucking depressing.

dayo, Thursday, 21 October 2010 00:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

murder city is incredible & like 2666 really manages to provide some small sense of the mundanity of the horror, of how commonplace and numbing it is through sheer aggregation

there must be 51 ways to sb ilxor (Lamp), Thursday, 21 October 2010 00:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

El Blog del Narco

dude (del), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 17:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

que horror

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 17:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

Did you guys/gals read this?

Ballard, Dick (Eazy), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 20:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

(it's the article Lamp mentioned above)

Ballard, Dick (Eazy), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 20:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

Normally, in Mexico, narco-traffickers don’t tolerate aggressive law enforcement—least of all from city police, who lack the formal power to investigate serious crimes (state police do that), let alone combat drug trafficking (that’s for the federal police). Local police chiefs who annoy them are simply killed. It happened to the Tijuana police chief in 2000. It happened to the chief in Tecate, the next border town to the east, in 2007—he was murdered in bed, while lying next to his wife, with fifty shots to the face and chest. It happened to the deputy police chief in Tijuana in January, 2008, when a large contingent of gunmen surrounded his house and killed him and his wife and two daughters.

dang

rothko's chapel and waffles (omar little), Wednesday, 27 October 2010 20:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

jesus

156, Thursday, 28 October 2010 06:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

'Saint of Death' religion probed

Chandler detectives are investigating whether Mexican drug-cartel members who pray to the "Saint of Death" are responsible for the stabbing and decapitation of a man earlier this month.

"Certainly they are looking at the role that Santa Muerte (Saint of Death) played in this as that is a religion that drug cartels follow because they believe it will protect them from law enforcement," Chandler Detective David Ramer said Tuesday.

The three suspects and victim had been visiting from Mexico, according to police reports.

Candles and an Ouija (spirit) board were found in the central-city apartment. Beheadings have been known to be used as part of the Santa Muerta religion, police said.

Additionally, neighbors reported the four visitors and a neighbor of the apartment in the 300 block of West Fairview Street spoke drunkenly of the religion as they talked until the early hours of Oct. 10.

"While inside (the five men) were all talking drunk about Santa Muerte, which means the Saint of Death in Spanish, and were acting so strangely that (a resident) felt uncomfortable enough to leave the apartment a few minutes later," a police report reads.

The report released Tuesday describes the last minutes of a man who was stabbed, decapitated and left in a pool of blood. It also provides details about the four men who had been drinking with him, as well as claims by neighbors that the men practiced Santa Muerte.

The murder victim has been identified as Martin Alejandro Cota-Monroy, 38.

Police have arrested one suspect, a neighbor who was renting a bed for $100 a month in the apartment across the way. They are searching for three suspects they alternately describe as being from Mexico and California in a case they say is drug related.

"Was this guy killed as part of the religion? They are looking that this might be drug-cartel related, and we know that drug cartels practice this religion," Ramer said of Santa Muerte.

story continues at link

Stockhausen's Helicopter Quartet (Elvis Telecom), Friday, 29 October 2010 04:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

that New Yorker article is wild...it's as if the false dichotomoy that Bush & friends presented to us (torture & suspended habeas corpus for public safety) became a frightening reality

only! assholes! write on doors! (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 1 November 2010 18:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/11/03/mexico.us.students.killed/index.html

(CNN) -- Two students from the University of Texas at El Paso were shot and killed Tuesday night in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, Chihuahua state investigators said late Wednesday.

The students, identified as Manuel Acosta Villalobos, 25, and Eder Diaz Sotero, 23, were gunned down in a hail of more than 30 bullets while driving a Nissan Sentra with Texas plates, Chihuahua State police spokesman Arturo Sandoval said.

omar little, Friday, 5 November 2010 19:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11703663

how long can this war burn this hot?

the bhagavad geeta (rip van wanko), Saturday, 6 November 2010 13:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't know why I keep on clicking this thread

whiney trollins vs. hipsters (dayo), Saturday, 6 November 2010 13:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

my students were talking about santa muerte in class the other day. as for your question about how long?
as long as it's permitted to last imo. it's a billion dollar business.

The Great Jumanji, (La Lechera), Saturday, 6 November 2010 13:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

RIP Don Alejo Garza Temez

EL CUCUY (lpz), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 05:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

How do you translate 'Santa Muerte' as Saint of Death? Shouldn't it be 'Saint Death' or 'Holy Death'?

Dis-moi ce que tu manges, je te dirai ce que tu es. (Michael White), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 15:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

iirc it would be like saying 'death saint' and thus 'saint of death' would be a more english-appropriate translation...pero my spanish is pretty weak

b'nai b'rith canal (m bison), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 17:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'm in the middle of reading The Daughters of Juarez, which focuses on the "femicides" of Juarez over the past couple of decades. the book seems to suggest that the murders could be partially the work of both the police and drug cartels, but overall it's all part of a general culture of juarez that has crept up in which people are unafraid of law enforcement b/c of the heavy crime rate and the corruption of the justice system. i was also surprised to see how much of what has actually transpired there was taken rather directly by roberto bolano for 2666, which isn't a criticism but just an observation. there's one particularly chilling bit where a girl has disappeared and they discover her body in an open field along with 7 other bodies in various stages of decomposition.

omar little, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 17:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

CUERNAVACA, Mexico – The Mexican army has detained a 14-year-old U.S. citizen suspected of acting as a killer for a drug cartel. The boy said he had been working for the cartel since he was 11.

The much-rumored alleged young assassin nicknamed "El Ponchis" was captured late Thursday at the airport near Cuernavaca with his 16-year-old sister as they tried to catch a flight to Tijuana and flee the country, said an army official, who requested anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the case.

The sister told reporters that they planned to cross the border to San Diego, California, to go to their stepmother's house. She said their mother had sent money for the tickets, but she did not specify where the mother lives.

Morelos state Gov. Marco Adame Castillo said at a news conference that the boy was born in San Diego and that Mexican officials are researching whether he is a citizen of Mexico as well. Although state courts usually handle crimes by juveniles in Mexico, state authorities have asked the federal government to take over the case because of the gravity of the crimes.

The teen told reporters early Friday he has worked for a drug cartel since he was 11 and that he participated in at least four decapitations. The source said his sister was accused of getting rid of the bodies by dumping them on streets and freeways.

"I participated in four executions, but I did it drugged and under threat that if I didn't, they would kill me," said the boy, who appeared calm and showed no remorse.

Another teenage sister accompanied the two, but officials said she was not suspected of being involved in the cartels.

"El Ponchis" wore blue jeans and a T-shirt and the detained sister jeans and a sweater when they were apprehended. Their airline tickets were already purchased.

The army did not specify where they were detained in the airport or whether they had already passed through security checks.

The attorney general for Morelos state said the two would turned over to state authorities, who handle crimes committed by minors in Mexico.

The two were suspected of helping the South Pacific Cartel headed by Hector Beltran Leyva, brother of Arturo Beltran Leyva, a top drug lord who was killed by Mexican marines in Cuernavaca a year ago.

The boy said Friday he had been employed by the cartel since he was ll years old.

Rumors that have circulated for weeks of a killer named "El Ponchis" as young as 12 years old.

Hector Beltran Leyva's fight for control of the cartel has caused a major spike in violence in the state just south of Mexico City, and in neighboring Guerrero state, where the resort of Acapulco is located.

The siblings were living in a poor neighborhood of Jiutepec, a working-class suburb of Cuernavaca, known as a weekend getaway for Mexico City residents. The area has an industrial area with Nissan, Unilever and other factories, rustic single-level concrete homes and some farms.

Neighbors said the mother has worked in the San Diego area for some time, but none had information about the teenagers' father.

omar little, Friday, 3 December 2010 19:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

last remaining police officer in border town guadalupe kidnapped
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-12085405

cozen, Wednesday, 29 December 2010 19:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

friend of mine is in mexico city taking photographs on the crime beat

http://milkyblacks.blogspot.com/2011/01/notes-from-crime-beat.html

zvookster, Sunday, 9 January 2011 19:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

I couldn't even read all the way through that. It was just too much.

banjee trillness (The Reverend), Friday, 4 March 2011 03:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

“Not really. I am saving money for my kids. I want them to study, to be something in life. They are still little and they don’t know what I do. At least if one day they find out, if I don’t spend the money, they might forgive me.

jesus

Neu! romancer (dayo), Friday, 4 March 2011 03:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

la guera's bravado seems really really ott to me -- not ott in that she is not doing and saying those things -- she clearly is -- but in that she doesn't believe it

living in that sort of environment seems just like having permanent incurable ptsd

Ralpharina (La Lechera), Friday, 4 March 2011 04:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

: (

omar little, Friday, 4 March 2011 05:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

a few days ago the brother, sister, and sister-in-law of a murdered activist were also all murdered. presumably one of those "we'll kill you and then kill your family later on if they dare discuss it" sort of things.

omar little, Friday, 4 March 2011 05:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

How much longer can this shit go on with no one stopping it? Its just so insane.

gnarly gnarlingtons in my life (Trayce), Friday, 4 March 2011 05:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

this particular phase has been going on hardcore for at least 3 years
i do wonder when it will become a priority

Ralpharina (La Lechera), Friday, 4 March 2011 06:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

i was in mexico last week

diebro (buzza), Friday, 4 March 2011 06:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

Did you get murdered?

banjee trillness (The Reverend), Friday, 4 March 2011 10:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

He's posting from más allá.

Triquinoise (Amenaza Elegante), Friday, 4 March 2011 13:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

the thing is that when countries declare war on druglords shit generally tends to get worse & stay worse for a long time

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, 4 March 2011 13:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

He's posting from más allá.
the solitary lol on this thread :(

Ralpharina (La Lechera), Friday, 4 March 2011 14:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

Well, it's a mexican thing to mock the dead, y'know?

I live in Mexico(Monterrey) by the way.

Triquinoise (Amenaza Elegante), Friday, 4 March 2011 14:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

Triquinoise (Amenaza Elegante), Friday, 4 March 2011 14:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

true
are you mexican are just living there?

Ralpharina (La Lechera), Friday, 4 March 2011 15:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

oops add OR

Ralpharina (La Lechera), Friday, 4 March 2011 15:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

Mexican.

Triquinoise (Amenaza Elegante), Friday, 4 March 2011 15:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

I couldn't finish that article either but i might go back and read it piecemeal later on.

Holy hell...

styrofoam for pancger management (Michael White), Friday, 4 March 2011 15:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

My wife is from Mexico and has lived there for 24 years so she is very familiar with the situation and watches the Mexican news every day for updates; I agree with everyone in here on how ridiculous this all is. The sad thing is that cities that were once "safe" are now starting to get these waves of crime. Her family is (or was) being followed and threatened; thankfully nothing has happened, but the reality is that this stuff is becoming commonplace and it sucks. Last time I went there, there were armored tanks on the streets with enough ammo to waste an entire city block (really!!), and her graduation party was cut short when it was announced that the gangs were coming to kidnap and kill 100 people there. Basically, the nightlife is kind of dead at the moment.

She generally tends to think that the situation will get better (as Cuba was pretty much the same way 10 years ago but seems okay now) after their president leaves office (or gets murdered, not sure which is more likely), as apparently the guy is fighting the drug lords which is leading to all this violence. Alternatively, she is acutally kind of hoping for a U.S. takeover of Mexico. According to her, Mexico could be a first-world country, as they have great work ethic and many natural resources, but everything is so corrupt and the previaling attitude so defeatist that it's hard to imagine it ever happening.

Read some of the stories coming out of Juarez lately; you literally cannot give away real estate there. If that place ever turns around someone's gonna be rich.

frogbs, Friday, 4 March 2011 16:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

Wishing I hadn't clicked on the other story about the 4 decapitated men now. :(

rendezvous then i'm through with HOOS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 4 March 2011 16:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

Remember when Chiapas were the big threat?

Pleasant Plains, Friday, 4 March 2011 16:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

i really hope this police chief manages to survive her term

― rothko's chapel and waffles (omar little), Wednesday, October 20, 2010 7:07 PM Bookmark

She did, kinda.

Pleasant Plains, Friday, 4 March 2011 16:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

Chiapas is a state -- I think you mean Zapatistas?

I don't doubt that eventually things will get better, but I wonder when the US is going to (officially, formally) own up to its responsibility here. Drug war fatigue can't last forever, and there's going to be a tipping point. I just wonder when that's going to be.

Ralpharina (La Lechera), Friday, 4 March 2011 16:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

im living in toluca (a hour and a half south of mexico city) until july. its relatively safe down here although the mood is kinda paranoid. lots of gated communities and so on. talking to mexicans about the whole deal, they seem to be hopeful that the next govt. can come in and clean it all up.

the Chinese firewall of the heart (Michael B), Friday, 4 March 2011 17:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

i really hope this police chief manages to survive her term

― rothko's chapel and waffles (omar little), Wednesday, October 20, 2010 7:07 PM Bookmark

She did, kinda.

― Pleasant Plains

that's a "relief" i suppose.

omar little, Friday, 4 March 2011 18:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

I feel a little better now for perving over her in the ws threads, then. best wishes to all folks on this thread who are in mexico.

Neu! romancer (dayo), Saturday, 5 March 2011 01:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20110316/capt.cb26f3752e6c43c382e7249d1d95b7f6-8ba85f82d3864320af3735bc59ba1e60-0.jpg?x=400&y=263&q=85&sig=_Qc2hVtGbdG4gycY.GEHaw--

Bodies lie on the floor in a home where gunmen killed an elderly woman and two of her grandchildren in the Pacific resort city of Acapulco, Mexico, Tuesday March 15, 2011. A convoy of gunmen chased a man into the home and sprayed the residence with bullets killing the 60-year-old woman, along with two boys, ages 2 and 6, police said in a statement. A 23-year-old woman was also wounded.

omar little, Friday, 18 March 2011 19:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

interesting

http://www.gamingunion.net/news/call-of-juarez-the-cartel-eyes-on-preview--4343.html

http://www.gamebandits.com/blog/2011/03/18/call-of-juarez-from-tex-mex-western-to-narcoterrorism/

However, when they announced that it would be called Call of Juarez: The Cartel, and would take place in a modern day setting, many people were left rather stunned.

as you can imagine!

It sounded rather cool, but many people wondered if the entire premise of the game, what made it stand out in the first place, would be lost as a result.

oh, for those reasons, then...

omar little, Friday, 25 March 2011 14:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

I can't stop following that Borderland Beat blog. So depressing and terrifying, but oddly compelling to read about. It really is like a modern day, lawless wild west or something - just ten times more deadly.

'what are you, the Hymen Protection League of America?' (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 25 March 2011 15:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

I mean, jesus:

hrough this communique, we are announcing that beginning this Friday on March 25, the true cleansing will begin. Beginning in San Nicolas, we will exterminate the scum filled rats: Civil servants, police, and transit authorities. Say goodbye to your families, avoid being with them or using your children as human shields, do not risk it. Ultimately, the scum will meet their end regardless of where they are or who they are with. This will also happen to the neighborhood lookouts, "Neighborhood Watch." We have something very special for you, similar to what the transit authorties will experience.

'what are you, the Hymen Protection League of America?' (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 25 March 2011 15:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

4 months pass...
1 month passes...

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/02/in-mexico-the-glamor-of-narco-culture/

#12 is just fucking unbelievable

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

Narco-culture, he said, is narcocorridos — rap songs about drugs that glorify the life experiences of violent drug dealers. It is giant mausoleums celebrating assassinated kingpins. It is films about the drug world. Blogs about the drug world.

maybe the author is using a very flexible definition of 'rap', but the term generally isn't used w/r/t rap songs

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

interesting article from foreign policy: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/07/14/can_mexico_fix_its_image_problem

partly interesting only because i feel like i have seen a # of 'positive' articles abt mexico in e.g. 'the economist' about how things arent as bad in mexico as they seem &c &c

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

mexican economy has been one of the real successes of the last decade

ice cr?m, Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

story a while ago in the times abt how fewer mexicans are coming to the states in favor of new jobs at home

ice cr?m, Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

I was just going to post my anecdotal (but very real) evidence of this very thing -- I work in ESL in a major US city and it has been noted (by experienced professionals) in two different schools (pretty major educational hubs within the city) that enrollment in lower level (basic literacy and level 1) ESL classes is not only down, but notably down within the Hispanic population. Lots of Iraqi Christians, east/north Africans, but noticeable downtick in Latinos.

On the other hand, major uptick in generation 1.5 students who are the first in their families to go to college.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

mexican economy has been one of the real successes of the last decade

yeah theyve had strong growth even during the last couple of years (like 5+% this year) but the stuff ive read makes it p clear how structurally fucked up and unequal their economy is

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh for sure

ice cr?m, Saturday, 3 September 2011 19:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm pretty sure its been mentioned in this very thread before, but the Borderland Beat blog is one place where you can really grasp how horrific this can be, some really harrowing tales and graphic images from time to time.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Saturday, 3 September 2011 19:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americas/09/14/mexico.violence/index.html

A woman was hogtied and disemboweled, her intestines protruding from three deep cuts on her abdomen. Attackers left her topless, dangling by her feet and hands from a bridge in the border city of Nuevo Laredo. A bloodied man next to her was hanging by his hands, his right shoulder severed so deeply the bone was visible.

Signs left near the bodies declared the pair, both apparently in their early 20s, were killed for posting denouncements of drug cartel activities on a social network.

omar little, Thursday, 15 September 2011 01:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

omg

iatee, Thursday, 15 September 2011 01:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

:(

The Reverend, Thursday, 15 September 2011 02:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

ffs

ice cr?m, Thursday, 15 September 2011 02:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

^

your mom the burrito (ENBB), Thursday, 15 September 2011 02:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

!!!!!

http://drdrestartedburningman.tumblr.com/ (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, 15 September 2011 13:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

Saw this news. So depressed. Shit like this has undone every high I ever had.

rustic italian flatbread, Thursday, 15 September 2011 13:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

terrifying

some lady (La Lechera), Thursday, 15 September 2011 13:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

the photo is blurred but still just sickening

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/09/15/article-2037772-0DE8B1E500000578-413_468x362.jpg

omar little, Thursday, 15 September 2011 17:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

jesus

(⊙_⊙?) (Alan N), Thursday, 15 September 2011 18:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

my fucking god

http://www.examiner.com/drug-cartel-in-national/cartels-now-extorting-teachers-killing-schoolchildren-mexico

At one time, dead children were usually the unintended victims of armed attacks on the streets of Mexico. However, in recent months, the cartels have been specifically targeting children with alarming frequency in order to send a message of their growing dominance in a country consumed by wholesale violence.

The Child Rights Network (CRN) estimates that 994 people under the age of 18 were murdered in drug-related violence between 2006 and 2010 in Mexico.

Juan Martin Perez, director of CRN in Mexico recently told The Washington Post: “Decapitations and hanging bodies from bridges send a message. Killing children is an extension of this trend.”

partistan (dayo), Friday, 16 September 2011 16:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

What a nightmare.

rustic italian flatbread, Friday, 16 September 2011 16:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

jesus

sick yr finger up his butt (DJP), Friday, 16 September 2011 16:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

the extreme escalation of violence over what... 10 years? just unbelievable.

(⊙_⊙?) (Alan N), Friday, 16 September 2011 16:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

I know, wikipedia, but...

The 2011 Tamaulipas massacre was the mass murder of at least 193 people[1] discovered in mass graves on April 6, 2011.[2] These people were kidnapped from passenger buses. Although not confirmed, some newspapers mention that the body count surpassed 500, but that the state government of Tamaulipas supposedly censored and prevented such publications.[3][4] This is the second mass murder of its kind in the state of Tamaulipas since the massacre of the 72 illegal immigrants by the Mexican Los Zetas gang on August 24, 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tamaulipas_massacre

(⊙_⊙?) (Alan N), Friday, 16 September 2011 16:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

This is so heart-breaking and mind-breaking. It feels like there's no end to it.

rustic italian flatbread, Friday, 16 September 2011 16:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

cocaine is so awesome!

I saw Mike Love walk by a computer once (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 16 September 2011 17:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

that the zetas are ex special forces dudes gone bad is like some action movie plot come awfully, horrifyingly to life

remembrance of schwings past (gbx), Saturday, 17 September 2011 16:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/09/us-prosecutors-fear-jailbreak-plot-by.html

I used to work right around the corner from this high rise jail and would always see people waiting in line on visitation day. It's the weirdest looking building, and apparently it does not have adequate exercise facilities.

some lady (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 14:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

The warden on her decision to give this guy special housing:

Specifically, my decision to house Mr. Zambada in SHU [the Special Houstin Unit at MCC] is based on the broad publicity his case has received, his access to unlimited outside resources, law enforcement’s portrayal of this case as the largest international drug conspiracy case in Chicago’s history, and the perception he is currently a cooperating witness, which places not only his life in great danger, but also that of staff who are directly supervising him.

some lady (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 14:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

That article makes me picture like some crazy action movie style breakout with helicopters and stuff.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 14:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

if anyones up for that its the mexican drug cartels

ice cr?m, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 14:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

It sure seems dramatic. The warden's declaration is pretty interesting on its own as an official document that I wouldn't normally have access to -- in case you ever wondered what it's like to be a narco kingpin's son in prison in the US.

some lady (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 14:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

...in a triangular high rise prison with no yard in the heart of downtown Chicago

some lady (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 14:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

Important disctinction imho.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 15:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

distinction even

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 15:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

That article makes me picture like some crazy action movie style breakout with helicopters and stuff.

― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:56 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_helicopter_prison_escapes

Whiney G. Blutfarten (dayo), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 16:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

sasha and maliaweed (The Reverend), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 18:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

wikipedia is the greatest site on the web

the tax avocado (DJP), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 19:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

otm awesome article

But, tbh, theres a part of me that thinks it would be kinda of awesome to watch one of those unfold over downtown Chicago.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 19:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

Also, this is a prison on top of a skyscraper.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 19:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.wbez.org/episode-segments/2011-09-20/metro-inmate-highlights-chicagos-connection-mexican-drug-cartels-92217

discussion of chicago's role in mexican drug trade, p essential listening imo

some lady (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 23:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

sorry for dbl post from facebook

some lady (La Lechera), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 23:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

god my sister told me about that this morning. fucking nuts

forced to change display name (gbx), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 14:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

a newspaper employee decapitated for a web posting:

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/09/woman-decapitated-in-mexico-for-web.html

i realize that for some there is little choice since they're terribly addicted, but one would think this sort of thing would indeed put people off the casual, recreational use of drugs coming from this region. i realize this is the more "conservative" argument and drugs in an ideal world would be legal so people who do things like this could run out of money and starve to death, but in the meantime, i dunno man.

omar little, Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

this is one where you might not want to look at the pictures. file it under the usual heading of "the drug cartels as terrorists."

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/09/execution-of-two-chapos.html

omar little, Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

good lord

(♯`∧´) (gbx), Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

How does it end? The U.S. will neither legalize nor stop buying drugs. How else will the violence stop?

Only way I can see it is if starts really spilling over the border, not just isolated jetski incidents.

Pleasant Plains, Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

When the government starts to leave drug dealers alone to conduct their bajillion dollar business in peace and quiet instead of pretending to wage a "war" on them? I wish I knew the answer to "how does the violence stop".

I also think there has been considerable spillage beyond isolated jetski accidents, but it's not always stuff you can see, not splashy like beheadings or w/e.

Also, don't forget about the profitable prison system.

some lady (La Lechera), Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

i realize that for some there is little choice since they're terribly addicted, but one would think this sort of thing would indeed put people off the casual, recreational use of drugs coming from this region. i realize this is the more "conservative" argument and drugs in an ideal world would be legal so people who do things like this could run out of money and starve to death, but in the meantime, i dunno man.

if everyone who paid attention to this kinda news + considered themselves a 'kinda ethical consumer' stopped doing coke, would that be enough to change the market dynamic in any meaningful way? I'm gonna say probably not but I don't know how you'd even attempt to measure something like that.

this is like recycling your bottles or making sure you don't waste electricity or whatever - all things I endorse but I don't pretend like they're really 'making a difference'...real change can only come via national policy. but I mean, if you are someone who bothers to recycle your bottles, turn off the lights etc. and you still do drugs w/o really considering where they come from...well, that seems like a weird way to go through life.

iatee, Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

I realize that in the grand history of absolutely sick, despicable awful inhumane evil things humans have done to each other, beheading someone with a chainsaw is maybe only halfway up the list, but goddamn I didn't need to see pictures. jesus.

dayo, Sunday, 25 September 2011 16:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

Anonymous said...
I've seen a lot of things on various blogs, but this may be the worst. The individuals working for the cartels are heartless serial killers. These individuals need to be hunted down and executed on site! Forget giving a trial to people like this, as it would be a waste of time to allow them to breathe another moment on earth. You wouldn't slaughter an animal in this fashion, let alone a human being.

...

iatee, Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

Again, I recommend Charles Bowden's Murder City. I didn't click on the pictures. Honestly, splashy violence/news makes the conflict feel more dramatic/vital/urgent, but it doesn't really do much beyond that. Certainly doesn't solve any problems to look at hacked up people.

some lady (La Lechera), Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I know about shootings on the U.S. side, just nothing that comes close to the degree of violence in Mexico.

U.S. troops would have to find a "reason" to go in like Panama 1989 or something. Seems weird that there's this huge uncorrupted force amassed on the border doing nothing because the chainsaw executions are happening outside of their jurisdiction.

Pleasant Plains, Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

it seems to me that what we can do personally is choose not to be part of any kind of larger problem, cf what you mentioned iatee. like it's pretty easy for me to not do drugs and remove myself from that clusterfuck and i'm sure there are plenty of other people who have chosen to do the same for similar reasons. it's not enough to actively change things for the better, but i don't even want to bear the most infinitesimal amount of responsibility for that mess. kinda the same reason i stick to fair trade goods as much as possible and ditch things when i find out they're coming from sketchy sources.

omar little, Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

i also recommend(ed?) "the daughters of jaurez" by teresa rodriguez, which grimly ties in with the drug war even though the overwhelming number of murders committed against women in juarez during the period depicted may not have to do entirely with drug cartels. it gives a sense of the environment in which those murders were allowed to occur with seemingly little law enforcement intervention and how such violence can be happening today.

omar little, Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

The worst part is that you have no idea -- most citizens can't have any idea -- where the tentacles of this vast criminal organization go because it is an underwater monster. It's easy to say that you don't want to have anything to do with it, but harder, perhaps impossible, to truly extract yourself from the possibility of contributing when no one knows exactly where the flow of money begins and ends.

That's part of what makes this so disturbing, for me at least.

some lady (La Lechera), Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp, the cartels deliberately keep things quiet on the US side in order not to provoke the police. It's apparently common for people to be kidnapped in Texas, or wherever, and taken back across the border to be executed. Perhaps the lack of intervention on the US side might be down, in part, to a fear of provoking the kind of retribution the Mexican army has seen.

omar little otm regarding recreational drug use.

A little bit like Peter Crouch but with more mobility (ShariVari), Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

la lechera otm. we really have no idea.

what's disturbing also about some of these recent stories about bloggers getting hunted down and killed is that the cartels must be actively tracking down people speaking out against them, and since those folks in all likelihood tried to cover their tracks you wonder how they were found out.

omar little, Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah I mean I guess there is still a line between this and fair trade or whatever, cause I mean buying folgers might indirectly make some peoples' lives worse but it's hard to imagine that you could buy coke without, on some level, contributing money to an organization that commits brutal murders on the reg. I'm not defending rec drug use just mentioning that I don't think we could make a real difference on the demand side even w/ some coordinated campaign.

iatee, Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I know about shootings on the U.S. side, just nothing that comes close to the degree of violence in Mexico.

U.S. troops would have to find a "reason" to go in like Panama 1989 or something. Seems weird that there's this huge uncorrupted force amassed on the border doing nothing because the chainsaw executions are happening outside of their jurisdiction.

just declare them to be what they actually are: terrorists.

(♯`∧´) (gbx), Sunday, 25 September 2011 17:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

When you snort cocaine, you snort terrorism.

The Reverend, Sunday, 25 September 2011 22:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/world/americas/mexican-teachers-push-back-against-gangs-extortion-attempts.html

scared as shit for them. but godspeed.

dayo, Monday, 26 September 2011 11:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

The popular revulsion over extortion has become so powerful that the New People gang, a rival battling the Zetas, took pains during a recent display of grisly hubris to distance itself from the practice. The gang dumped 35 bodies, believed to be Zetas, on a main road near the port city of Veracruz on Tuesday with a sign saying, “People of Veracruz, don’t let yourselves be extorted. Don’t pay any more ‘quotas.’ ”

what am I supposed to do here? cheer?

dayo, Monday, 26 September 2011 11:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

here are no due dates or late fees – ever! Try New People for FREE...

My hetfield very root with me what can I lou? (rustic italian flatbread), Monday, 26 September 2011 12:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

is coke still huge? i knew a bunch of ppl who snorted it/smoked crack in 2001-02, but afaict I know very very few habitual users these days...

i'm hearing Bowie sing this, and it's the best single of 1985 (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 26 September 2011 15:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

(of course I'm a lot less in touch w/ the drug scene these days...)

i'm hearing Bowie sing this, and it's the best single of 1985 (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 26 September 2011 15:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

How does it end? The U.S. will neither legalize nor stop buying drugs. How else will the violence stop?

I don't think there really is an answer. Really the only thing they can do is invade Mexico which obviously isn't going to happen. The Mexicans in power need to stop their war against the drug lords but to be honest I can't imagine their goverment being competant at all, from what I've heard the election/hiring process is ridiculously corrupt. It seems the criteria to get hired are like 1) Who you know, 2) What you look like, 3) Who you'll sleep with, and then like 1000) If you're actually qualified for the job. I don't see how things can get worse.

frogbs, Monday, 26 September 2011 15:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

I've been to Ciudad Juarez. When I was about 10 years old my parents drove me and my sister across the border to it from El Paso. It made a strong impression. The INSTANT we were out of our big old, banged-up, no-air-con Ford LTD, we were surrounded by children selling Chiclets. We got an offer from a guy to "watch our car" in exchange for cash. We wandered around an ancient covered market full of dirt-cheap tourist tat. One woman begging for money was carrying what looked like a mummified baby. It was fucking horrific and depressing and I was on edge the entire time. And that was in the late 1980s. I would imagine my parents wouldn't do it again today.

TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 26 September 2011 15:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

is coke still huge?

yes coke is still huge

I saw Mike Love walk by a computer once (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 26 September 2011 16:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

Right now it's really unsafe to even drive into there, I've heard plenty of stories of cars/buses just randomly getting shot up on the street, it's one of the worst places in the world to be right now. On the plus side, property there is practically free. It's surprising that all this stuff is happening primarily on border towns. The scary thing is that previously 'safe' areas down south are now getting all this violence. I'd heard that Merida was mostly free of drug violence, because that was where the drug dealers families lived! Last time I was there, armored tanks filled the streets with enough ammunition to destroy an entire city block. It's terrifying getting interrogated by a police officer in a language you don't fully understand when the guy is holding an assault rifle and is almost certainly corrupt.

frogbs, Monday, 26 September 2011 16:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

is coke still huge? i knew a bunch of ppl who snorted it/smoked crack in 2001-02, but afaict I know very very few habitual users these days...

― i'm hearing Bowie sing this, and it's the best single of 1985 (Drugs A. Money), Monday, September 26, 2011 11:37 AM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

(of course I'm a lot less in touch w/ the drug scene these days...)

― i'm hearing Bowie sing this, and it's the best single of 1985 (Drugs A. Money), Monday, September 26, 2011 11:37 AM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark

A few years back, when I was 25 or so, my roommate and I were both ex-potheads. We were talking about the old days when we were 18, lol. I remember telling her something like "yeah, but I guess once you get to be our age people don't smoke pot anymore." WRONG. Just talking about observations you might have if you're out-of-touch with the drug scene.

My hetfield very root with me what can I lou? (rustic italian flatbread), Monday, 26 September 2011 16:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

I know lots of people who still smoke pot; a (not-quite-so-overwhelming-anymore) majority of the people I know still smoke pot. Some of them are on pills too, maybe even a few are still on meth...I mean, most of the folks I associated with are the working poor, so that probably explains a lot.

Just seemed like you guys know people irl who still do coke pretty regularly, whereas I don't (or if they do, I don't know about it).

i'm hearing Bowie sing this, and it's the best single of 1985 (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 26 September 2011 16:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh yeah, I know what you were saying. I have no idea who does what among most of my friends and acquaintances, just because I really don't party at all anymore. But if there's one thing I'm pretty sure of, it's that coke has not gone away.

My hetfield very root with me what can I lou? (rustic italian flatbread), Monday, 26 September 2011 16:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

look at any line outside any club, those people are coked to the gills

Air Supply dwarf belts helpless Packers fan (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 26 September 2011 17:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah i dont go to clubs Shakey; but still, good to know.

i'm hearing Bowie sing this, and it's the best single of 1985 (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 26 September 2011 17:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

I dont know how much coke there is in the Midwest but I always assumed it was more of a southern thing. Here it's mostly prescription drugs that everyone is obsessed with.

frogbs, Monday, 26 September 2011 17:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's so deeply ingrained in the culture now I kinda don't know how you would ever get rid of it - it's one of those things that codes as "glamorous"/"dangerous"/something you do if you're "young" and "wild" and "rich"

xp

Air Supply dwarf belts helpless Packers fan (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 26 September 2011 17:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

much love for aerosmith as always but serious lolz at his "don't get all super-judgmental about cocaine when i am sure you have blood on your hands from SOMETHING in your life" stance on that thread. like i am pretty okay with "drawing distinctions" between the coke industry the shady and indefensible practices of certain aspects of food production because i have to eat to fucking stay alive, though i am not always happy with the choices available to me food-wise thanks to location or finances or hell just laziness, which makes me complicit, sure, but otoh i am pretty sure everyone who pays for a completely inessential-to-life mild powder-based buzz is helping to fund the mass murder of children for their fleeting pleasure, including me, back in the days when i did coke.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Monday, 26 September 2011 17:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

otoh i'd be pretty okay if humanity dried up and blew right off the planet, just for anyone who wants to beat me to the "well you dont HAVE to eat, either" zing. what can i say, life much like cocain use, a habit's a habit's a habit.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Monday, 26 September 2011 17:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

cokehead would say you're just addicted to food

Air Supply dwarf belts helpless Packers fan (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 26 September 2011 17:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

learn to photosynthesize, asshole

dayo, Monday, 26 September 2011 17:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

I couldn't read Bowden's book. I hated the way it was written, or at least how the first few dozen pages were written.

One of the (naive?) best ways to help Mexico is to vacation there and help underscore that tourism dollars come easier than drug war money. There are vast hunks of the country relatively unaffected by the violence, at least for now.

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 26 September 2011 17:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

strongo otm.

omar little, Monday, 26 September 2011 19:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

exactly where are the safe parts right now?

frogbs, Monday, 26 September 2011 20:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

I couldn't read Bowden's book. I hated the way it was written, or at least how the first few dozen pages were written.

yeah, I had a similar experience but got about halfway through. writing style doesn't change drastically.

of course, I was hoping for a more historical breakdown and that just wasn't what the book was going for.

(⊙_⊙?) (Alan N), Monday, 26 September 2011 21:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

xpost It's a really big country, so the safe parts would be, I presume, most of Mexico. The worst stuff is by the border. But the Yucatan Peninsula is super safe, for example.

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 26 September 2011 21:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

I dunno if you read my post upthread, but the Yucatan is definitely starting to get some of this. I was there last year for my now-wife's graduation and the party was cut short b/c there were threats to capture and kill people there. Some of her family members have been followed and have been threatened kidnapping if they haven't come up with some ridiculous sum of money. Most of it is just, threats but there have been a number of murders there and my wife fears that things are getting worse. As I mentioned, when I was there they were putting tanks on the streets and had a bunch of armed checkpoints on the highways. Merida was supposed to be a "safe haven" because apparently some gangs had families there, but I don't know how true that is now.

frogbs, Monday, 26 September 2011 21:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, Murder City is not historical -- like most of his books, it's pretty narrative in structure (I guess at the expense of dry facts?). I like the way he gives specific examples instead of blasting the reader with aggregate stats.

There are a lot of things I wish I could contribute to this thread but I just don't really feel like it's a good idea in a public forum.

some lady (La Lechera), Monday, 26 September 2011 21:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

but otoh i am pretty sure everyone who pays for a completely inessential-to-life mild powder-based buzz is helping to fund the mass murder of children for their fleeting pleasure

this does get kinda complicated though, bc people get pretty into cocaine, to a point at which the fact that it is inessential is not really relevant or can't be gauged. still otm, just saying. the whole thing does make you wonder whether a more mature attitude towards drugs would mean that there could be a conversation about it or an attempt to regulate it or for people to be better aware of the genealogy of it, but that obviously is not going to happen anytime soon.

also:

I've heard plenty of stories of cars/buses just randomly getting shot up on the street, it's one of the worst places in the world to be right now. On the plus side, property there is practically free.

lol

mr. vertical (schlump), Monday, 26 September 2011 21:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

xpost Not the Yucatan, inland, but the Yucatan Peninsula, Cancun and south. I've been down there three of the last four years and it's been sleepy and safe. Going back in January, I'll let you know if it seems newly dangerous.

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 26 September 2011 21:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp: oh, no, i didn't want that to come off as some kinda zero tolerance NO SYMPATHY FOR THE POOR WIDDLE ADDICTS thing.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Monday, 26 September 2011 22:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

but also i mean no one on that thread who was like "fuck yeah lines" on that thread struck me as someone who'd boosted their mom's tv to support their habit or anything. during my years as a nightlife reporter (cough) i knew a LOT of casual snorters and they were very much high-functioning it's-just-a-party types.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Monday, 26 September 2011 22:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

Veracruz is all right as long as you don't mind the occasional 35-body traffic jam.

Pleasant Plains, Monday, 26 September 2011 22:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

there are twists and turns on the path from "buying cocaine from a bouncer at a club" to the money ending up in the hands of the people who are cutting the heads off anti-cartel bloggers, but the path certainly eventually leads there. i basically think that everything people do in life should be regarded from a certain moral standpoint but generally speaking i think there's no way in the current system for someone to be a moral cocaine dealer (or user, i suppose.) at least users can claim ignorance in many if not most cases.

omar little, Monday, 26 September 2011 22:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

Map of unsafe areas in the US (in grey):

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 26 September 2011 22:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

and despite the fact that i haven't done any drugs except a couple of joints in the last four, five years, i still drink like a fish, so i hope it also didn't come off as attacking relaxation-via-mood/mind-altering-substances or even drugs as an idea. i'm no teetotaler. it's just that i don't tend to worry that, whatever the shit-ness of the industry, anheuser busch isn't gunning down school kids on the streets of delaware because they're worried dogfish head is cutting into their market saturation.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Monday, 26 September 2011 22:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

Phew, Josh. I live in one of the light-blue areas.

Pleasant Plains, Monday, 26 September 2011 22:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

ha don't worry strongo, you didn't sound judgemental at all, i just have a bad habit of trying to coerce people to insert unnecessary caveats into short paragraphs in which they weren't really needed. you can still reasonably draw a line between a lot of people for whom it *is* a recreational choice, probably, sure.

but also i mean no one on that thread who was like "fuck yeah lines" on that thread struck me as someone who'd boosted their mom's tv to support their habit or anything. during my years as a nightlife reporter (cough) i knew a LOT of casual snorters and they were very much high-functioning it's-just-a-party types.

mr. vertical (schlump), Monday, 26 September 2011 22:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

the unfortunate thing is that historically people in this country who have been against mind-altering substances have come across as (or have actually been) clownish prohibition-era throwbacks who would just as soon steal my precious beer fridge as they would seal off the drug tunnels into america, which means that anytime i make this sort of argument i feel like i'm got the ghost of nancy reagan nodding in agreement over my shoulder, which makes me feel weird to say the least. yes i realize she's not dead.

omar little, Monday, 26 September 2011 22:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

xpost Not the Yucatan, inland, but the Yucatan Peninsula, Cancun and south. I've been down there three of the last four years and it's been sleepy and safe. Going back in January, I'll let you know if it seems newly dangerous.

The place I'm talking about is Merida ("the white city"), which is in the Peninsula isn't it?

frogbs, Monday, 26 September 2011 22:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

dont know why anyone is doing coke when adderall is so plentiful, easy to get, more or less legal and not murdering mexicans

max, Monday, 26 September 2011 22:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

xpost I believe Merida is about 4 hours from Cancun, for reference. So it's pretty far from the coast/beach stuff.

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 26 September 2011 22:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

Some U.S. arrests in the consulate-employee assassination:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/22/us-crime-usa-mexico-idUSTRE78L7JF20110922

Corn Maze to the Dark Side (Eazy), Monday, 26 September 2011 23:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

dont know why anyone is doing coke when adderall is so plentiful, easy to get, more or less legal and not murdering mexicans

ppl who 'do' adderall are nerds, is the thing

this display name must in some way reference laurel halo (Lamp), Monday, 26 September 2011 23:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

lawl

max, Tuesday, 27 September 2011 00:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

just want 2 thank omar little for his contributions to this thread & the other linked one, I think its a v important point & one that i think is v on point

like jess im more of a drinker fwiw

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 00:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

(subtext of that being, not a teetotaler either but i think it entirely makes sense to recognize the horrible consequences of supporting this industry)

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 00:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

well duh (re: consequences of supporting this industry)
who doesn't know that? does this mean that the tide has finally turned against the "it's a party" people?

some lady (La Lechera), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 00:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

i was just clarifying why i bothered mentioning i drink lol

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 01:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

dont know why anyone is doing coke when adderall is so plentiful, easy to get, more or less legal and not murdering mexicans

― max, Monday, September 26, 2011 6:22 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ppl who 'do' adderall are nerds, is the thing

― this display name must in some way reference laurel halo (Lamp), Monday, September 26, 2011 7:07 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^ yeah why not just do nodoze and stay up all night watching monty python

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 13:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

or Mountain Dew and Family Guy?

frogbs, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 13:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

if everyone who paid attention to this kinda news + considered themselves a 'kinda ethical consumer' stopped doing coke, would that be enough to change the market dynamic in any meaningful way? I'm gonna say probably not but I don't know how you'd even attempt to measure something like that.

this is like recycling your bottles or making sure you don't waste electricity or whatever - all things I endorse but I don't pretend like they're really 'making a difference'...real change can only come via national policy. but I mean, if you are someone who bothers to recycle your bottles, turn off the lights etc. and you still do drugs w/o really considering where they come from...well, that seems like a weird way to go through life.

― iatee, Sunday, September 25, 2011 12:55 PM (3 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah must say that im always a little suspicious of peoples motivations in these situations re recycling or not doing coke or w/e - they often seem to have more of an appetite for condemning the actions of others than attempting to grapple w/the complexity of the situation or like acknowledge moral failings in their own lives

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 13:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

exactly where are the safe parts right now?

i lived in toluca from january to july and apart from one incident with a friend of mine getting shaken down by cops; i had no hassle. i travelled to oaxaca, queretaro, guadalajara, guanajuato and puerto escondido and had no hassle there either.

Michael B, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 13:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

and im a lil surprised everyones all 'omg when will this violence ever end prob never' i mean its a direct result of a government thats more democratic and prosperous than its been before attempting to root out the endemic corruption and influence of the drug gangs - like whats happening is awful but if mexico is gonna continue to grow you cant have basically quasi governmental drug organizations playing such a prominent role in the country - and you know theres no way theyre going to go quietly - when you have huge malevolent forces in a country their reckoning is often v painful see like slavery and the civil war or w/e - of course the u.s. could just legalize coke and everything would be cool lol

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 13:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah ive heard the violence is only really bad in like 5 of 30 or however many states xp

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 13:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

it should be noted that however bad violence in mexico is now it still pales in comparison to many central american and caribbean countries

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 13:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

im sure these stats are quite unreliable but fwiw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 13:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

well, the cartels are arguably more powerful than the government is at this point, as the Mexican political process is so ridiculously corrupt that they're steeped in everywhere. plus the cartels aren't really afraid of civilian casulties. if you go down there practically everyone is against a "war on drugs" as that's whats getting innocents blown up

btw I know the violence is only "bad" in a few states but it's starting to spread, which is the real problem. I can only really speak for the Yucatan where so far nothing horrible has happened but things definitely look different now than they did 3 years ago

frogbs, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

im sure these stats are quite unreliable but fwiw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

I can't believe Canada even places on that list! What reason is there to murder someone up there!?

frogbs, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

because real life has no 'suggest ban' option

Joe Romeo, Concerned New Yorker (stevie), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

I see Trinidad has moved past South Africa and has Colombia in its sights.

It's overspill from the same issue - T&T is one of the prime routes into the US / Europe for drugs from South America.

Didn't know things were that bad in Belize.

Mohombi Khush Hua (ShariVari), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

Surprised Iraq and Zimbabwe aren't on that list, but maybe it's the lack of stats.

per metal injection (Eazy), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

if you go down there practically everyone is against a "war on drugs" as that's whats getting innocents blown up

― frogbs, Wednesday, September 28, 2011 10:00 AM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

eh i dont think this entirely accurate, in the polls ve seen people are in favor of fighting the cartels, they just dont think the government is doing a v good job of it

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean having a more peaceful situation where drug gangs run shit isnt really such a great situation either, and the level of violence now is proof that the gangs have been destabilized, whether thats going to lead to a good outcome i have no idea

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

not a great situation but they're not going to just destroy the cartels in a few years, which I've heard is what the current president is trying to do. they're waay too integrated at this point. granted people's opinions change on this subject once they've had a family member threatened or kidnapped. obviously everyone wants them out but declaring a full-scale war on drugs that's putting tanks on the street and guns in the hands of potentially corrupt officers at nightclubs is not the solution

frogbs, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

im curious to know what is the solution

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

I have no idea, dealing with such an omnipresent force that's not afraid to kill innocents and especially politicans is not going to be solved overnight. I would imagine it would have to start from the bottom up, first they can fix their political process to actually get intelligent people in office (believe me when I say their election process is a joke and half the people in office are in no way qualified), start paying the police more so they aren't forced to go corrupt to make ends meet, and weed out all their high-ranking politicians who are publicly connected to the cartels. Everyone in America was outraged that Cheney had a big connection to Exxon Mobil, imagine that on a much larger and worse scale and that's what's happening there.

frogbs, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah well its easy to say 'this is not the solution' but p much if youre going to try to root out these powerful well financed murderous gangs theyre going to end up killing a lot of people - im sure it could be done more skillfully than the mexican government has - but i doubt theres any sort of easy way to go about it - and of course mexico has tons other problems

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

anyway drugs need to be legal in the usa then we can relate to our own problems

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

Exactly - there are probably like 4-5 "real" solutions and so far legalizing drugs is the only one that makes any sense whatsoever

frogbs, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

unfortunately mexico cant legalize drugs in the usa

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm not talking in regards to what Mexico can do, I just mean a solution in general. Like I think a U.S. invasion could solve a lot of things but obviously that's not going to happen. As I mentioned I don't think Mexico can do anything that will show results anytime soon.

frogbs, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 14:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean having a more peaceful situation where drug gangs run shit isnt really such a great situation either

That was one of the interesting parts of the New Yorker article from earlier this year (linked somewhere here, though I think it's subscriber-only). It described a peaceful region, with rehab clinics run by the cartels, schools provided for, etc.--the Mafia template.

per metal injection (Eazy), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 15:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

just do what they say and everythings cool

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 15:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah must say that im always a little suspicious of peoples motivations in these situations re recycling or not doing coke or w/e - they often seem to have more of an appetite for condemning the actions of others than attempting to grapple w/the complexity of the situation or like acknowledge moral failings in their own lives

― ice cr?m, Wednesday, September 28, 2011 8:42 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

is anyone here really 'unwilling to grapple with the complexity of the situation'? idk i think its perfectly legit to judge ppl at some level for using something casually that is obviously harmful to lots of people!

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 18:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

like, obv i have failings, i try to be honest about those too, but it doesnt mean im not going to condemn someone for making a decision that seems u know WRONG

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 18:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

like hopefully none of my failings happen to fund the murder of innocents (obv just being an american makes this impossible but i dont have many alternatives to paying my taxes unfortunately)

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 18:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

i feel like this exact conversation has happened on another thread

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 18:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

thread(s)

i am sympathetic to iatee's view, but i also know that because everyone can't stop doing coke, we have a national policy (drug war) that unfairly targets minorities and the poor.

funk master friendly (moonship journey to baja), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 18:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

maybe you can have a drug war that doesn't, idk

funk master friendly (moonship journey to baja), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 18:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

i feel like this exact conversation has happened on another thread

― Art Arfons (La Lechera), Wednesday, September 28, 2011 1:50 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

possible yeah i guess nothing that im saying is new in this convo, i guess i was taken aback by ice craem's argument but maybe hes just saving this one for the 'learning how to troll' thread

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 18:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

he has used that argument before - i think on me, in fact! it just seemed like deja vu.

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 18:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

D-40 totally and 100% otm.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 18:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

whatever makes you guys feel better about yourselves, I guess

frogbs, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

it feels just great to think about all the children dying in mexico, thats why i do it

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

well if we're gonna start talking the impotence of recycling we can just segue straight into "is anybof this shit reaaaaaaaaally gonna matter when the environment starts getting especially 'interesting' in 50 to 75 years?" (a: no.)

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

50-75 years? we're already there

iatee, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

not quite at the americans shanking each other for drinking water stage yet, but as always i welcome the apocalypse to get here as soon as possible.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

recycling is a valuable activity

unorthodox economic revenge (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

so is saving energy

unorthodox economic revenge (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

doing coke, not so much

unorthodox economic revenge (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol I love the A++++ iatee and frogbs trolling itt

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

i resent any trolling itt tbrr but i guess i've been pretty humorless about this topic for the better part of 20 years

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

iatee isnt trolling afaict

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

not on purpose, at least

iatee, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean i think hes otm & isnt really contradicting anything, just on some 'just recognize that this wont stop the problem, the real problem is systemic' realism

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I agree with him wrt to that, but its his comparison to recycling that made me rmde.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

ice cr?m's idea that the violence is not just a symptom of the status quo but a possible consequence of things getting better is way more "trolly" (ie provocative) imo

banana mogul (goole), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

if only people loved one another, the world would be a better place

frogbs, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

Tonight, I'm going to do a big rail and then throw away a bunch of plastic six-pack holders without cutting them up first.

I'm just one man, can't make a difference anyway.

Pleasant Plains, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 20:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

recycling was just the first thing that came to mind when I needed contrast w/ something an 'ethical consumer' does

ice cr?m trolling is a given

xp

iatee, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 20:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

btw I want to point out that my wife is putting a lot of the blame on Calderon and kind of suggests that the he's a terrible president as evidenced by the fact that he hasn't been assassinated yet

frogbs, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 20:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

ppl should probably stop doing coke, its obv super lame, sorry you dont know how 2 have fun w/e but lets get realistic demand is not going to become 0 and the us govt should probably just give up fighting the war on drugs already, how many crappy bands do we have to suffer i ask u

señorita buttstench (Lamp), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 22:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

mexican drug lords did foster the people

dayo, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 22:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

ice cr?m's idea that the violence is not just a symptom of the status quo but a possible consequence of things getting better is way more "trolly" (ie provocative) imo

― banana mogul (goole), Wednesday, September 28, 2011 2:59 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

its a more interesting point than saying that ppl who disdain casual coke use are secretly hypocritical or w/e

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 22:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

the response to which is "and?"

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 22:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

there are tons of great coke bands!

max, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 22:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

not recently i guess but man, the 70s, wild times

max, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 22:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

the hypocrisy isnt really all that secret is it?

señorita buttstench (Lamp), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 22:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

fyi i was referring to the terrible buzzband 'war on drugs' when i was complaining abt 'the war on drugs'

señorita buttstench (Lamp), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 22:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh

max, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 23:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol @ dayo

unorthodox economic revenge (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 23:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

ice cr?m's idea that the violence is not just a symptom of the status quo but a possible consequence of things getting better is way more "trolly" (ie provocative) imo

― banana mogul (goole), Wednesday, September 28, 2011 2:59 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

well its unclear if its getting better but its p much inarguable that the violence is a consequence of government activity destabilizing the cartels - thats p much the entire story of whats going on here

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 01:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah must say that im always a little suspicious of peoples motivations in these situations re recycling or not doing coke or w/e - they often seem to have more of an appetite for condemning the actions of others than attempting to grapple w/the complexity of the situation or like acknowledge moral failings in their own lives

― ice cr?m, Wednesday, September 28, 2011 8:42 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

is anyone here really 'unwilling to grapple with the complexity of the situation'? idk i think its perfectly legit to judge ppl at some level for using something casually that is obviously harmful to lots of people!

― sorry for party blogging (D-40), Wednesday, September 28, 2011 2:48 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

idk do you eat meat, travel in cars or airplanes, pay taxes in the usa - all these things hurt people, or are more accurately parts of systems that hurt people that would go on functioning quite well w/o your involvement - i will now judge you - no lol i wont because im not a self righteous ass

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 01:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's okay I'm here I'll do the judging

iatee, Thursday, 29 September 2011 01:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean people want cocaine so they can stay up all night drinking 25 beers and talking incessantly abt nothing, its really not their fault the u.s. government has outlawed the stuff thereby creating a huge criminal ecosystem that victimizes everyone in its way, its the governments

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 01:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

im not a self righteous ass

hmmm.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk do you eat meat, travel in cars or airplanes, pay taxes in the usa - all these things hurt people, or are more accurately parts of systems that hurt people that would go on functioning quite well w/o your involvement - i will now judge you - no lol i wont because im not a self righteous ass

― ice cr?m, Wednesday, September 28, 2011 8:51 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

um, but you can totally judge someone for doing those things too. i don't use cars i do judge ppl for using SUVs or driving when they don't need to or not voting for progressive candidates or all sorts of other things that are harmful to the world! Sorry im a 'self righteous ass' u self righteous ass

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

im not saying you arent allowed to judge people for those things, just that its a rather limited pov

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

I am judging all of you right now

dayo, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

i love judging people. tbh i have no idea what id get out of this place otherwise after all this time.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

To judge the oppressors of humanity is necessary. Leniency is futile.

Banaka™ (banaka), Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

people try to extract the moral truth from the endlessly complex global situations we all live in, which good and reasonable, were all trying to find the best way, so we decide to recycle or not do cocaine or w/e, but of course our efforts always seem rather feeble compared to the problems of the world, theres a sense that we might not be having any effect at all, i think its at this point that the urge arises to want to make others conform to the moral conclusions weve reached, and were like mad cause someone isnt using cloth shopping bags

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

who in this thread doesnt use cloth shopping bags

dayo, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

up against the wall

dayo, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

i love judging people. tbh i have no idea what id get out of this place otherwise after all this time.

― strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Wednesday, September 28, 2011 10:08 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

on some level it like w/e a perfectly normal human activity, but on the other its p tiresome, and yes i understand i cant make this statement w/o judging the judgers

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm getting the sense that ice cr?m really digs cocaine

iatee, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol i havent done coke in years, but i must admit to rarely using cloth shopping bags

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

when will this vicious circle of judging stop

dayo, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

i was kidding. i dont get anything out of this place at this point.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

Cloth is the tool of the organic oppressor.

Banaka™ (banaka), Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

i was kidding. i dont get anything out of this place at this point.

if only i could make an emoticon for what my face is doing rn

señorita buttstench (Lamp), Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

:-{√

?

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

that's the pringles guy if he had a frog's tongue i think

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

Banaka!!!

pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

Present.

Banaka™ (banaka), Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

cloth shopping bags are part of the problem

cocaine snorting suburbanite who says "retard" (buzza), Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

i thought this thread was about drugs, mexico, and murder but i guess it's all about ice craem and his inability to carry cocaine in cloth bags

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh im sry is there someone else around here w/plastic shopping bags full of cocaine, i did not think so

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 02:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

I won't judge anyone for striking ice craem abruptly across the cheek w a pair of gloves for his roman from "party down" "random particles" defense of ppl who support a morally disgusting industry

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

Nihilism thats what I'm looking for

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

may that help to assuage yr feelings of helplessness for like the next two minutes

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

guys :(

horseshoe, Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

Once you have abandoned "hope" you shall find the clarity you seek in us.

Banaka™ (banaka), Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

may that help to assuage yr feelings of helplessness for like the next two minutes

― ice cr?m, Wednesday, September 28, 2011 11:20 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

congrats on feeling superior? i dont know what you want me to say, acknowledge that all humans have selfish motives at some level? u arent blowing my mind

doesnt make this more defensible tho!

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

assuaged my feelings w/ mexican food tonight, for a place called puebla they had surprisingly weak mole

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

was wondering what was going on in this thread all day, seeing it at the top of new answers.

Still don't understand though, sorry.

uhhhhhh (admrl), Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

an honest discussion abt human motivation would certainly be like a billion trillion times more compelling than yr moral pronouncements

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

'i just think this is reprehensible!' *accuses someone of feeling superior*

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

who posted 'i just think this is reprehensible!' -- I did an Omar otm because it is one of the few ways this touches our lives & it's not something I've really heard many people bring up when discussing coke use -- i'd say it's a pretty compelling argument. thats really all there is to it.

i mean, where are you drawing the line exactly?

"people try to extract the moral truth from the endlessly complex global situations we all live in, which good and reasonable, were all trying to find the best way, so we decide to recycle or not do cocaine or steal or kill or abuse animals or w/e, but of course our efforts always seem rather feeble compared to the problems of the world, theres a sense that we might not be having any effect at all, i think its at this point that the urge arises to want to make others conform to the moral conclusions weve reached, and were like mad cause someone isnt using cloth shopping bags"

i mean, trying to draw equivalences between funding an inherently murderous system & forgetting to bring your cloth bag to the grocery store is kind of disingenuous don't you think.

i mean im not going around w/ picket signs about this or something, & pretty much everyone in this thread has been really cautious about being seen as 'judgmental' in every post, partic. omar, but if a friend was like "fair trade coffee is bullshit" id probably say ehh its really not, similarly w/ cocaine use so

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

fwiw fair-trade coke is great

wasabi pea-sized masculinity (latebloomer), Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

i feel like we're stuck in some sort of game of trying to make the other person seem unreasonable ... but seriously, who has said anything itt that deserves JUDGEMENT? who are you directing your superiority at exactly? I think it's totally reasonable to make moral decisions for yourself & then make those arguments in a public space to persuade people to your line of thinking. No one here is talking about snitching on their friends for doing coke or something

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

Banaka!!!

― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, September 29, 2011 2:25 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

real talk this is a grim fucking thread and this post made me lol v hard

thank you BIG HOOS, you brilliant god-man (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean, trying to draw equivalences between funding an inherently murderous system & forgetting to bring your cloth bag to the grocery store is kind of disingenuous don't you think.

― sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, September 29, 2011 12:50 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

not really, climate change has the potential to make the number of people killed in the drug war look like a rounding error, it may have already killed more depending on how you look at it, and theres a similarity in that an individuals decision of shopping bag or whether to use cocaine or not will almost certainly have no effect on the total body count - however if you personally abuse an animal an animal that was not before abused will now be abused so i dont think thats v apt

however if you abuse an animal

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 04:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

who are you directing your superiority at exactly?

― sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, September 29, 2011 12:51 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol wtf does this even mean

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean, what posts on this thread drove u to make your 'point'

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

you can just do a search for my name and review the whole thread its p easy

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

not really, climate change has the potential to make the number of people killed in the drug war look like a rounding error, it may have already killed more depending on how you look at it, and theres a similarity in that an individuals decision of shopping bag or whether to use cocaine or not will almost certainly have no effect on the total body count - however if you personally abuse an animal an animal that was not before abused will now be abused so i dont think thats v apt

however if you abuse an animal

― ice cr?m, Wednesday, September 28, 2011 11:58 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

well if you've made this mental calculus then you can feel free to judge me if i forget to bring a cloth bag to the grocery store! You could probably make a persuasive argument about it! otoh i could also make an argument that, you know, you need to get food & carry it in something home, and that because you forgot to bring a cloth bag, an extra trip in your car actually increases the amount of gas released into the ozone, so in fact it actually saves the environment to not make the trip home just to get a bag, and you're talking about all of these logistical issues which involve modern life in some v complicated ways, vs

dont do cocaine

which is pretty simple, and easy, and doesnt actually interfere w/ transporting food from distributor to home. i mean, its just a whole lot easier way to minimize your 'footprint'! in my opinion.

and im also not entirely convinced that, as a fraction of the environmental impact, using one paper bag is actually as harmful anyway, beacuse as a 'tragedy of the commons' issue its a much more widely distributed source of harm than 'people who buy coke' so your numbers game could easily be off. there's also ways to curb greenhouse gases that wouldn't involve people always using cloth bags; when it comes down to it, shopping bags alone are a pretty small % of the problem.

but this is, like, all beside the point, because really to be a 'good person' you should probably do both! your game of delineating which is more harmful & to what degree is silly; driving a car isn't as bad as driving an SUV, but that doesnt make it ok to drive a car either.

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

you can just do a search for my name and review the whole thread its p easy

― ice cr?m, Thursday, September 29, 2011 12:06 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

im asking which particular post struck you as being so over the top in its need to pat itself on the back.

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

there is a simple answer to all of this and it is to kill anyone you disagree with.

Banaka™ (banaka), Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

i wont judge you for killing us, because what, are we all gonna have to recycle?

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

my game is totally not delineating which is worse! what i was doing was comparing things people enjoy taking moral stands on because theyre v easy and painless to do so, that are in the big scheme of things likely to change basically nothing and have v little to do w/someone actually being a 'good person'

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

you can just do a search for my name and review the whole thread its p easy

― ice cr?m, Thursday, September 29, 2011 12:06 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

im asking which particular post struck you as being so over the top in its need to pat itself on the back.

― sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, September 29, 2011 1:09 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ok at yr request ive reviewed and the first one was just agreeing w/iatee who wasnt even directing anything at anyone in this thread so far as i can tell

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

i dont think anyone here has argued that they were about to cause change -- most of us i thought agreed w/ iatee? -- but that if u are aware of the harm an activity causes at this level & continue to do it anyway then in my particular world i might not consider u a particularly commendable person, and i might say so, on ilx, as im doing right now, and expect that this not be met w/ the consternation of an apparent nihilist who thinks taking a moral stand is pointless

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

post the number of times you've done cocaine here

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

if an activity is causing harm then by definition ceasing it would end the harm thereby causing change, no?

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

a couple dozen maybe?

always preferred speed tbh

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

the consternation of an apparent nihilist who thinks taking a moral stand is pointless

― sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, September 29, 2011 1:16 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

its v strange how people often dont think youre engaging w/their arguments honestly around here

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

fwiw i do think taking pointless moral stands is pointless #nihilism

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

ice cream do you think its possible to engage honestly with arguments on the internet

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

nah n/m nothing matters...

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

did you know napolean ate with aluminum utensils

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

I thought "apparent" made it obv I was willing to give u the benefit of the doubt but that this was how your argument was coming across since it appeared to not actually be about anything except that other ppl are dumber than u

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 05:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

And after they post
They go lookin' for the dopeman

per metal injection (Eazy), Thursday, 29 September 2011 06:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

That last post read poorly, but basically I just don't get jhos argument so I was using the "universe is meaningless" stuff bcuz I don't rlly know how else to interpret it ... Obv we bring our own judgments onto others all the time. As jho did in this thread. And sometimes the stuff we judge them on isnt rlly that big a deal relative to the world's suffering. For me tho when the link to the horrors of it is so clear, and the cost to me so minimal, I feel reasonably comfortable being "self righteous" about this particular issue

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 06:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

cocaine snorting suburbanite who says "retard" (buzza), Thursday, 29 September 2011 07:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

somebody give me a fuckin cookie for not getting up on some What You're Actually Supporting When You Eat Meat stuff here ok

a vegan cookie you dickheads, no wise guys

pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 29 September 2011 11:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

Ah, but no more eating meat introduces a moral paradox: if everyone was vegetarian, then the millions (billions?) of animals bread to be consumed - cows, chickens, pigs, etc. - would all slowly die of starvation and neglect. So, yeah, there would be no more mistreatment of animals and Big Meat, but that would only come after the heartless global animal genocide. But if everyone stopped doing drugs, the only victims are the nefarious criminal cartels that cultivate them.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 29 September 2011 12:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

And the people that really, really want to do drugs, of course, boo hoo. They can get a sympathy cookie.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 29 September 2011 12:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

welp i guess thats taken care of then

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 12:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

Vegan cookie.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 29 September 2011 12:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

That last post read poorly, but basically I just don't get jhos argument so I was using the "universe is meaningless" stuff bcuz I don't rlly know how else to interpret it ... Obv we bring our own judgments onto others all the time. As jho did in this thread. And sometimes the stuff we judge them on isnt rlly that big a deal relative to the world's suffering. For me tho when the link to the horrors of it is so clear, and the cost to me so minimal, I feel reasonably comfortable being "self righteous" about this particular issue

― sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, September 29, 2011 2:58 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah first id like to apologize for the self righteous ass comment it kinda uh got things off on the wrong foot and was fairly self satirizing on my part - i guess my point is that 'moral stands' that are super easy to make have little to no real world impact and are enthusiastically deployed to cast others in a harsh light are prob not really moral, theyre more 'entertainment'

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 12:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

Ah, but no more eating meat introduces a moral paradox: if everyone was vegetarian, then the millions (billions?) of animals bread to be consumed - cows, chickens, pigs, etc. - would all slowly die of starvation and neglect. So, yeah, there would be no more mistreatment of animals and Big Meat, but that would only come after the heartless global animal genocide. But if everyone stopped doing drugs, the only victims are the nefarious criminal cartels that cultivate them.

this is true, much as when you have a child you should be able to p much do what you want with it, because after all it wouldn't be around if it wasn't for you so shouldn't complain.

c'mon man, stopping forcing animals into existence, mutilating them & then electrocuting them to death = 'heartless global animal genocide': really? i don't think this is a 'moral paradox' - when we apply that kind of logic to thought experiments in which someone is or isn't born, and so whose life is speculative, it assumes some degree of 'quality of life' in either circumstance. us not producing animals for slaughter isn't really depriving anything of its vivid & sacred life force.

mr. vertical (schlump), Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

which is not to say i dont sympathize w/people who dont feel comfortable engaging in some aspect of the drug war or factory farming or whatever, but its imho a much better look to approach this from a personal decision pov

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think if we lived in a world sensitive enough to synchronously convert to vegetarianism, we would probably be touchy-feely enough to kick a spare carrot to the the animal in the field.

mr. vertical (schlump), Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

a lot of people seem to enter into these situations for the express purpose of putting themselves on a pedestal tho

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm fully behind the idea that needless animal suffering is abhorent. I can see why some other aren't that bothered though. I'd hope that we could all agree that the activities of the Zetas, and their ilk, are unfathomably terrible.

The position i can't get my head around is one where people are vegetarian, only buy fair-trade coffee, try to keep a small carbon footprint, etc and still do coke, though.

Mohombi Khush Hua (ShariVari), Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

they just really like cocaine!

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

Given the feeding of cattle and other edible animals is essentially the single biggest facet of factory farming - and all domestic animal production/consumption - I think the odd carrot or two would not suffice. If millions of cows, chickens, pigs, etc., were simply released, they'd either starve or die other horrible deaths. Unless everyone adopted several as pets. Which would be kind of funny. Can only imagine my neighbor with the chickens tethering a cow in the backyard.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't think anyone can argue that hard drugs like cocaine represent anything less than the epitome of selfishness and have no benefit to society. Though of course, lots of things fall in that category.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

if we're really discussing ridiculous hypothetical plans for worldwide vegetarianism i presume it would be done in some controlled "let's eat what we have and not breed any more" kinda way, rather than letting billions of domesticated cattle run wild and free and slowly die of starvation and neglect.

ledge, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

and all of us our intimately tied to a global system that is in myriad ways brutal, even yr vegan bro didnt do coke thered be something else they used that was linked to causing suffering, the thing is altering their individual purchasing habits will prob not help the problem at all

btw what im NOT saying is 'theres nothing anyone can do' - in reality i think there is def some benefit to being judicious as to what you buy even if its often more of a global mindspace effect rather than a supply and demand one - and on a related note its kind of interesting in todays world that people might see what they consume as so central to their identity as moral being

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

LOL at the idea of a systematic, organized let's eat everything and be done with it campaign.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

wild cattle might be kinda cool tho, they have them india, people just have to start littering more so they have something to eat is all

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

"Do Your Part Today: Eat a Cow."

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

"Don't Like To Eat Meat? Think Of The Animals!"

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

"Only 143475674 Cows to Go!"

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

The could have a countdown clock.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

all the little cows that will never be born is who im worried abt

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

guess my point is that 'moral stands' that are super easy to make have little to no real world impact and are enthusiastically deployed to cast others in a harsh light are prob not really moral, theyre more 'entertainment'

if my personal contribution to (current global disaster scenario x) makes no difference (tragedy of the commons etc), isn't taking a moral stand more likely to have a real world impact - if you manage to persuade someone that x is bad, and they stop xing and maybe start taking a public stand themselves, and persuade someone else, etc...

ledge, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

the thing is altering their individual purchasing habits will prob not help the problem at all

idk. Cocaine is a social drug. If there was a concerted push to change the way it is viewed in a social context, that might start to have an impact on consumption. It won't solve all the problems but demand is as important as supply in tackling the issue.

It's unrealistic to imagine that everyone's going to stop doing it but, at the very least, people need to be made aware of the issues.

Mohombi Khush Hua (ShariVari), Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

no i actually think advocacy is one of the most important things we can do for issues we find important, i guess its maybe personally i find a lot of overtly moralistic arguments surrounding consumption p small minded and unconvincing, particularly re drugs iirc the 'dont do drugs' tact has been tried a lil bit in the past

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

cocine is an interesting one cause its really really more than other comparable things a policy issue, unlike producing meat theres no reason why any being particularly has to suffer to create cocaine

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp Is it the same people with a different message, though?

This seems to be coming from a different place - particularly given that the solution anti-coke people usually come up with is legalisation.

Mohombi Khush Hua (ShariVari), Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

tbf calling yr congressman once prob will have most irl impact than not doing coke, of course most people not doing coke on moral grounds prob just dont want to do coke

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

what if everyone who doesn't do coke says they'll get behind it and start using their share once its ethically sourced, cf the spike in people eating their five a day on account of smoothies

mr. vertical (schlump), Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp, A political solution's the only long-term end but a reduction in social acceptability / demand is the best we can hope for at the moment.

I know a few people who stopped doing coke for this reason.

Mohombi Khush Hua (ShariVari), Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

just say lol

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 13:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

if everyone just learned how to get high off superiority we could end the drug problem right here right now

iatee, Thursday, 29 September 2011 15:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

morality and the globalized consumer landscape

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 15:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

man I'm so w/deej here on a lot of this stuff it's not even funny

ppl who are always griefing about "oh no, self-righteousness, what could be worse than self-rightousness" are 10,000x worse than people who're trying to spread some good either through discussion or action and who come off a little self-righteous - worrying about whether somebody comes off wrong in the pursuit of good is like complaining that the person who helped raise a barn was wearing the wrong kind of shoes

pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 29 September 2011 15:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

barns are v. inefficient living spaces

iatee, Thursday, 29 September 2011 15:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

j0hn we have a new thread morality and the globalized consumer landscape totally ready for some self righteous jerks to post inside of

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 15:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

no iatee I meant barn in the swedish sense of the word, my bad

pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 29 September 2011 15:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

barns are v. inefficient living spaces

― iatee, Thursday, September 29, 2011 11:33 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

Geir Home-gro

rustic italian flatbread, Thursday, 29 September 2011 15:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah except I don't think anyone is going to quit doing coke because they didn't consider what the source was

I mean you can condescend on people who drive SUVs or eat too much red meat or whatever, the point is the change really has to come at a larger level so this discussion is kinda useless

frogbs, Thursday, 29 September 2011 15:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's condescend to

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Thursday, 29 September 2011 15:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 15:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah I don't know what I was thinking there

frogbs, Thursday, 29 September 2011 15:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

this thread makes me want to barf like 800x over

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Thursday, 29 September 2011 15:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

cosigh

rustic italian flatbread, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

good point you guys

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm contemptuous of the smug entitlement to euphoria of many first-world cocaine users but i think the desire for said euphoria is pretty ubiquitous and I'm equally contemptuous of the patriarchal desire to forbid something as simple to grow and make as cocaine; the forbidding is what has jacked the price and that's more the root of the evil as anything else.

What does one wear to a summery execution? Linen? (Michael White), Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

good point you guys
no really, thank you.

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh come on there's a little enjoyment to be had in the fact that a thread about drugs turned into a 200 post stoned dorm room bullshit marathon with two guys talking past each other for hours at like 2 am.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think the whole "well i'm suspicious about the motives and/or superiority complex of anti-drug/anti-drug violence crusaders and also most of you guys eat cow" is an interesting way to analyze in terms of human psychology but i'm also suspicious of that argument being used as a method to distract from the points being raised, cf. al gore warning about climate change and right-wingers pointing the finger at his private jet and all "btw didn't you claim to invent the internet?" most def the history of anti-drug (and alcohol) movements are filled with puritanical and iron-fisted creeps who like to feel morally superior so it's an understandable take. i agree w/ aerosmith's second-to-last post, basically.

omar little, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

barns are v. inefficient living spaces

So anthropocentric!

What does one wear to a summery execution? Linen? (Michael White), Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

Maybe we shoud give the cocaine to the cows. How does that parse ethically?

What does one wear to a summery execution? Linen? (Michael White), Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

Like, would you eat veal if you knew that cow had been high to the gills his entire life?

Pleasant Plains, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

And would you eat a cow that had gills. ~think about it~

Pleasant Plains, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh come on there's a little enjoyment to be had in the fact that a thread about drugs turned into a 200 post stoned dorm room bullshit marathon with two guys talking past each other for hours at like 2 am.

nope, sorry -- sounds more like a symptom of the problem more than anything else. way to get distracted. at least i can honestly say that i have contacted a legislator directly about this issue and raised awareness. i am not a morally superior puritan or an iron-fisted creep btw.

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp You prob already are, don't tomatoes already have fish DNA in them?

Octavia Butler's gonna be piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiised (Laurel), Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm contemptuous of the smug entitlement to euphoria of many first-world cocaine users but i think the desire for said euphoria is pretty ubiquitous and I'm equally contemptuous of the patriarchal desire to forbid something as simple to grow and make as cocaine; the forbidding is what has jacked the price and that's more the root of the evil as anything else.

bingo bingo gringo

frogbs, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think the whole "well i'm suspicious about the motives and/or superiority complex of anti-drug/anti-drug violence crusaders and also most of you guys eat cow" is an interesting way to analyze in terms of human psychology but i'm also suspicious of that argument being used as a method to distract from the points being raised, cf. al gore warning about climate change and right-wingers pointing the finger at his private jet and all "btw didn't you claim to invent the internet?" most def the history of anti-drug (and alcohol) movements are filled with puritanical and iron-fisted creeps who like to feel morally superior so it's an understandable take. i agree w/ aerosmith's second-to-last post, basically.

al gore's kinda dipshit when it comes to this stuff, tbh. ~pr matters~ and he knew that enough to...make a movie. now that he's the public face of something - which was entirely voluntary - of course he's going to be the easiest person to call out for hypocrisy. if you want to be the world's spokesperson w/r/t global warming, you should probably play the part.

iatee, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think accusing folks who feel certain ways about drugs of wanting to feel morally superior is a pretty nice political tactic but doesn't really change the core issue.

omar little, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

you see my point though xp

omar little, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

the lesson here is grow your own drugs

frogbs, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm contemptuous of the smug entitlement to euphoria of many first-world cocaine users

I think this has been pointed out before but it's really not their fault the whole industry is so corrupt and violent.

frogbs, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

'our fault' you mean?

iatee, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

that's some serious razzle dazzle iatee

frogbs, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

are all of your racist outbreaks just cocaine binges?

iatee, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

Pleasant Plains, Thursday, 29 September 2011 16:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

btw,

Pleasant Plains, Thursday, 29 September 2011 17:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

It rots your flesh!

rustic italian flatbread, Thursday, 29 September 2011 17:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

cool now i dont have to worry abt worms

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 17:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

THAT is an excellent reason not to do blow

What does one wear to a summery execution? Linen? (Michael White), Thursday, 29 September 2011 17:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

just snort levamisole directly, it doesn't support murder and gets you equally fucked up

frogbs, Thursday, 29 September 2011 18:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

then the cartels will just move into trafficking levamisole

funk master friendly (moonship journey to baja), Thursday, 29 September 2011 18:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

Rereading last nights argument I still don't get jho's perspective here.

sorry for party blogging (D-40), Thursday, 29 September 2011 19:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

ice cr?m, Thursday, 29 September 2011 19:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

Better than cocaine
This thread dispute between Nate and Trife resembles two hearty, healthy young chimps sparring
a) for territory
b) to see which of them is more mature
c) to see which can get the protection of 'the elders', sitting nearby chewing on twigs while being deloused by females.

Nate mentions cocaine, Trife steps into the clearing with a challenge that he has experienced neither the white powder nor, in fact, sexual intercourse (staking a claim to seniority by implying that he has already sampled both). Nate appeals to the elders to expel the aggressor but is met with indifference. Trife chases him into the brush with the cry 'eat my ass you clueless cum bubble'. As literature or evidence of intelligent life on earth, zero. A mark added for Trife's assonance and alliteration: 'ass' and 'clueless' have alliterative endings, 'clueless' and 'cum' alliterative beginnings, and 'cum bubble' is a nice piece of assonance. For humanity, though, bathos and probable deletion. 1

― Momus (Momus), Sunday, September 28, 2003

^^ the most vicious drug war on ILX

funk master friendly (moonship journey to baja), Thursday, 29 September 2011 20:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think icey has been p otm here. i don't think he's really hung up on 'self-righteousness'; in the context of this thread, I think that these 'cocaine as consumer choice' derails come across as a bunch of ppl thinking they're fighting the cartel by choosing not to do a bunch of coke that they were not going to do anyways...? i don't think icey is out of line by thinking that may not be the most meaningful response to the situation at hand.

at the same time, omar is right; cocaine use should be subject to not only legal but social censure, and should be drained of every last drop of countercultural frisson so that it can be seen as the terrorists' wares that it is. but it feels like the official stance of this thread is that cocaine should be legal, and that nobody should use it: you don't have to be obsessed with self-righteousness to see that this might be a wee bit incoherent...

anyways: so yeah, Rick Perry...

revelatory juxtaposition there, bro (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 3 October 2011 17:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

You may as well continue hunting at a place called Niggerhead. It's not like you staying at home is going to stop racism or anything.

Pleasant Plains, Monday, 3 October 2011 17:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

wait a second

cocaine should be legal, and that nobody should use it

i agree with the first part, but not necessarily the second. where are you getting that? speaking for myself, that has never been what i had in mind w/r/t political abstention.

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, 3 October 2011 17:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

but it feels like the official stance of this thread is that cocaine should be legal, and that nobody should use it: you don't have to be obsessed with self-righteousness to see that this might be a wee bit incoherent...

this is misleading. the 'official stance' if there is one (there isn't) would be 'cocaine should be legal, nobody should use it until it's legal'

iatee, Monday, 3 October 2011 17:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

cokestrawmanning

unorthodox economic revenge (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 3 October 2011 17:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

iatee: plenty of examples itt of ppl conveying skepticism of the eventual legality of cocaine, so I don't feel at all bad with leaving out the 'until...' part

LL: iatee otm about there being no 'official stance'; that was my way of saying overall it seems that everybody agrees that coke should be legal, but that in the last few hundred posts, it seems that there is a majority in agreement that using coke makes you a bad person. you weren't one of the people agreeing with this; I didn't mean to include you in that. I should've been more clear.

PP: read the whole post, dude.

revelatory juxtaposition there, bro (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 3 October 2011 17:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

plenty of examples itt of ppl conveying skepticism that people will stop doing cocaine too

iatee, Monday, 3 October 2011 17:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

Hell, I've read the whole thread, dude.

Pleasant Plains, Monday, 3 October 2011 17:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's really no contradiction or hypocrisy in saying coke should be legal and people should try to not use it.

banana mogul (goole), Monday, 3 October 2011 17:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

that logic would have held re: booze in in '20s

banana mogul (goole), Monday, 3 October 2011 17:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

also I thought a good amount of the "using coke makes you a bad person" rhetoric was tied directly to the atrocities being committed in name of coke production, but I haven't been in this thread for a while and maybe we've moved on to Patrick Bateman jokes

the tax avocado (DJP), Monday, 3 October 2011 17:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's def a strong correlation between 'people who do coke regularly' and 'total assholes' but that's not reason enough to think it should be illegal. being an asshole should probably be illegal though.

iatee, Monday, 3 October 2011 17:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

D. A. Money -- ok, because that is a pretty fucked up stance if that is the official stance, right? I'd say so. Yikes.

Ken Burns' Prohibition was on tv last night and I thought of this thread and how easily/quickly/heatedly convoluted the discussion can become.

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, 3 October 2011 17:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think icey has been p otm here. i don't think he's really hung up on 'self-righteousness'; in the context of this thread, I think that these 'cocaine as consumer choice' derails come across as a bunch of ppl thinking they're fighting the cartel by choosing not to do a bunch of coke that they were not going to do anyways...? i don't think icey is out of line by thinking that may not be the most meaningful response to the situation at hand.

at the same time, omar is right; cocaine use should be subject to not only legal but social censure, and should be drained of every last drop of countercultural frisson so that it can be seen as the terrorists' wares that it is. but it feels like the official stance of this thread is that cocaine should be legal, and that nobody should use it: you don't have to be obsessed with self-righteousness to see that this might be a wee bit incoherent...

anyways: so yeah, Rick Perry...

― revelatory juxtaposition there, bro (Drugs A. Money), Monday, October 3, 2011 12:25 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

if u just mean 'deej offtm' say so

anyway not really incoherent at all; there is a moral dimension to consumer choices. obviously if people think that simply by shopping morally they are changing the world & don't need to become involved in solving the actual systemic issues because they bought fair trade coffee or processed the coca themselves then yes they are full of it, but i don't see anyone here who thinks that bcuz they've decided to direct their money in less harmful ways that makes them good ppl by default, or means there arent other dimensions to being a 'moral person,' etc

when it gets down to it, we all draw lines around what we think is socially acceptable behavior -- if i see someone kill someone, i'm not cool with it, if i see someone jaywalking, i don't think it's a big deal, if i see a woman pull her 2 year old across a street full of busy traffic, i'm somewhere in between those two poles. If you have decided that folks who know about the ramifications of funding this industry but do it anyway are really 'not that big a deal' then fine -- but personally i can't really see why I shouldn't draw a pretty thick line between what I would consider 'responsible ethical behavior' and 'doing coke'

this isn't about whether or not i want to or don't want to do coke. i'm sure if i did coke regularly id come up w/ some kind of rationalization in my brain because thats what ppl do for the behavior that they wish to engage in.

dangobro (D-40), Monday, 3 October 2011 17:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's def a strong correlation between 'people who do coke regularly' and 'total assholes' but that's not reason enough to think it should be illegal. being an asshole should probably be illegal though.

very reminiscent of Bill Cosby's bit on cocaine in "Himself"

the tax avocado (DJP), Monday, 3 October 2011 17:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

I thought everyone here knew I was b1ll c0sby?

iatee, Monday, 3 October 2011 17:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

actually I do share a birthday with him

iatee, Monday, 3 October 2011 17:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

i met him once and he signed the back of a raffle ticket for me

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, 3 October 2011 18:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

Posting from phone so fuck c&p/ital. Anyways, D-40, it's not just you who's offtm; in fact I don't even think you're that offtm...? I mean, it's not like I'm gonna swoop into Mexico like Rambo and take out some Zetas. I just feel like 'stop doing coke' is kind of a weak response to 'thousands of Mexicans are being brutally murdered' that for it (the response) to be so vigorously defended here just seems o_O to me.

Fwiw I am not exactly thrilled with icey's 'well, countries be growin' response either

revelatory juxtaposition there, bro (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 3 October 2011 18:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

Flippant, that is the word I have been trying to think of. The topic I thought we were discussing deserves a less flippant treatment than the one it has been given.

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, 3 October 2011 18:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

us troops will never end up in mexico ... ?

funk master friendly (moonship journey to baja), Monday, 3 October 2011 18:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

rick perry has proposed that, fyi

banana mogul (goole), Monday, 3 October 2011 18:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

U think I'm being too flippant? I feel like maybe towards other ILXors, not towards the larger topic...

Xxp

revelatory juxtaposition there, bro (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 3 October 2011 18:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

Nonono -- I don't think you're being flippant. The digression into lols and countries be growin' is what I was referring to.

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, 3 October 2011 19:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

really dudes 'countries be growin'

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

you really think the fact that mexico grew at historic levels over the last decade is irrelevant and has nothing at all to do w/this shit

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

yall get a big seriousness award, congratulations

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

who said that? maybe if you would stop being dismissive for like 5 seconds we could all have a rational conversation, but i don't know if that's going to happen either.

thanks for my seriousness award, will hang it next to my harpie prize

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, 3 October 2011 19:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

man I think creamy's hearts in the right place here, but it reads like he sort of skims this thread and races off on a tangent that really misses the mark

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

The digression into lols and countries be growin' is what I was referring to.

― Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, October 3, 2011 3:03 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

who said that? maybe if you would stop being dismissive for like 5 seconds we could all have a rational conversation

― Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, October 3, 2011 3:12 PM (57 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

*rolls eyes*

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

you're impossible!

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, 3 October 2011 19:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

Another severed heads news story should cast off the lols.

per metal injection (Eazy), Monday, 3 October 2011 19:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol you seriously do not see the irony in accusing someone of being dismissive and frivolous while using the phrase 'countries be growin'

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

btw everyone has been i think p nice in mostly ignoring yr omg this thread is barbarous i know things abt mexico shtick

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

Dude she was directly quoting another post itt:

Fwiw I am not exactly thrilled with icey's 'well, countries be growin' response either

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah i noticed that obvs duh

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay you really are impossible

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

omg did i you point out something i already knew, in quoting it did she endorse it, next time in questions from an impossible poster

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

iirc, she was pretty much doing the exact opposite of endorsing it

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

thanks a lot everyone for being nice to me in spite of my schtick

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, 3 October 2011 19:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

Fwiw I am not exactly thrilled with icey's 'well, countries be growin' response either

― revelatory juxtaposition there, bro (Drugs A. Money), Monday, October 3, 2011 2:14 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Flippant, that is the word I have been trying to think of. The topic I thought we were discussing deserves a less flippant treatment than the one it has been given.

― Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, October 3, 2011 2:17 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

U think I'm being too flippant? I feel like maybe towards other ILXors, not towards the larger topic...

― revelatory juxtaposition there, bro (Drugs A. Money), Monday, October 3, 2011 2:28 PM (55 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Nonono -- I don't think you're being flippant. The digression into lols and countries be growin' is what I was referring to.

― Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, October 3, 2011 3:03 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

now jon i know you think 'sort of skim this thread' but here is a lesson in reading comprehension 4 u - the first usage of 'countries be growin' is by my mans drugs a money, who was bless his heart generally defending me, except that hes not thrilled w/my countries be growin response which im taking to mean he thinks my treatment of the importance of the mexican economy was somewhat dismissive in the context of all the violence, like i was saying 'its ndb dudes the economy is growin' which of course i was not at all saying - then you can see he asks la lechera, winner of the 2011 thread scold award, if she thinks hes being flippant to which she replies 'nonono' - now if she were doing the exact opposite of endorsing the quote this wouldve been a good time to mention that she thought the quote was in fact, flippant, which it is, but instead she said no three times which does to me make her subsequent quoting of it look a lot more like an endorsement, particularly since its in line w/her general sentiment in this thread, which is that peoples opinions on this topic that are not her own are frivolous

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh boy semantics and namecalling, just what the internet was missing

unorthodox economic revenge (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 3 October 2011 19:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

That would be a great lesson for me if it weren't, you know, completely wrong.

(xpost)

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

But then I tend to avoid lessons in reading comprehension from angry internet types that think it takes too long to type out the words "for" and "you".

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

great argument thx

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

tl
dr
sb

dan m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

tl
dr
sb
ice cr?m

― dan m, Monday, October 3, 2011 9:45 PM (8 seconds ago) Bookmark

Young Swell (Le Bateau Ivre), Monday, 3 October 2011 19:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

j/k hermanos

Young Swell (Le Bateau Ivre), Monday, 3 October 2011 19:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

btw lechera feel free to chime in anytime here

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I'm not going to waste anymore time arguing someone else's intent, but I'm pretty certain she was never endorsing the "countries be growin'" line. I read it as the thread in general was veering towards flippant with all the zings and jokes.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

I guess I don't really have anything to say at the moment. Now that I have been put in my place, let me see how it feels here and get my bearings.

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, 3 October 2011 19:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Mexico+uncovers+tunnel+beneath+border/5251295/story.html

has this been discussed yet or are we now way past ever talking about the actual thread topic on this thread again

the tax avocado (DJP), Monday, 3 October 2011 19:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

that article is beneath my dignity

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh man I want to post a zing here so bad (NB actually not one at cream's expense).

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

wait, Google claimed that article went up an hour ago but the byline is Aug 13

what happened, I am confused

the tax avocado (DJP), Monday, 3 October 2011 19:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

'U.S. officials said in June that more than 150 secret tunnels for smuggling people and drugs into the United States have been found since 1990.'

wonder how many there are in all

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

in the face of widespread tunneling, I am not sure exactly what the "BUILD A BIGGER WALL" ppl think they will be achieving

the tax avocado (DJP), Monday, 3 October 2011 19:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

the thing abt the war on drugs in general and like many other wars is that the enemy will always be more dedicated and creative than we are, because its a bigger deal to them

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

But you see the wall will also go down a hundred miles too!

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 19:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 20:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

Not sure if this will reach you guys as a full article or in part, but today's WSJ has a lengthy piece on the repercussions of targeting bloggers.

per metal injection (Eazy), Monday, 3 October 2011 20:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

just google it then click through

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 October 2011 20:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

wonder how many tunnels there are in total... ALIEN ANT FARM!

(╯°□°)╯︵ mode squad) (dayo), Monday, 3 October 2011 20:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, 3 October 2011 20:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

xpost Those girls may have gotten to the top, but they didn't swing over and get down to the bottom again. No border crossing, no credibility.

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 3 October 2011 22:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

Real quick: icey p much otm about what I was saying: I really don't have time to go into what it was that led me to misrepresent icey"s analysis so badly but def one reason was me trying to be clever and another was that I was rushing to go to work; I wish I wouldve left that whole thing off. LL otm about it being floppant, though more in the vein of flippantly dismissing the nuances in icey's take rather tham about the situation. But it still sounded way bad and LL being my friend, I believe her 'nonono' was more to soften the blow of the dawning realization that I justed outed myself as a crass moron rather than condoning that phrase as a valid take on anything icey said.

Anyways I hope don't re-derail this thread. I just wanted to apologize to the both of you aned to everybody. Have a good night!

revelatory juxtaposition there, bro (Drugs A. Money), Monday, 3 October 2011 23:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

no harm done -- icey is not incorrect in finding me annoying, and the only thing that kinda stung genuinely was when he said that people were being "nice" to me
i sent him a webmail with an olive branch in it
we're all good afaic

anyway the song i posted is pretty good and it is about ants
what an exhausting day

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Monday, 3 October 2011 23:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

That icey jab was off tm and I resent the suggestion that I have been nice to anyone, at all, ever. Suggest wrong.

Octavia Butler's gonna be piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiised (Laurel), Tuesday, 4 October 2011 01:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol

ice cr?m, Wednesday, 5 October 2011 01:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

floppant, son

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 5 October 2011 02:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

Oh man is there ever a movie in this

Brakhage, Tuesday, 25 October 2011 20:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

phew, every time I see this thread pop up in bookmarks, my stomach sinks like a pit

The Reverend, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 06:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

"Mexican" hero-een Music

buzza, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 07:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

heard this on the radio yesterday about veracruz
mata-zetas are either
a) vigilantes sick of relying on govt/military to protect them
b) sinaloan cartel members getting mad and getting even
c) something else
d) who knows
e) wtf at dumping *more* bodies in the street

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/26/141727973/drug-violence-swamps-a-once-peaceful-mexican-city

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Thursday, 27 October 2011 20:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

Matching bottles of mineral water are lined up in front of each of them.

pplains, Thursday, 27 October 2011 20:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

that part was notable, wasn't it

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Thursday, 27 October 2011 20:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

i also liked the lengthy description of what the seafood woman sold

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Thursday, 27 October 2011 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

On the eve of a convention for Mexican prosecutors

Pretty audacious idea in itself.

your way better (Eazy), Thursday, 27 October 2011 22:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

I keep reading their name as Meta-Zetas, which in terms of "violent gang" is kind of accurate.

your way better (Eazy), Thursday, 27 October 2011 22:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

Wow.

your way better (Eazy), Saturday, 29 October 2011 19:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

Apparently a politician's hacked website:

http://gustavorosario.com/

your way better (Eazy), Saturday, 29 October 2011 19:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

all i'm seeing here is a rash of (coverage of) vigilante efforts in the wake of years of government and military boobery
does anyone who studies this conflict think this is going to amount to anything? (serious q)

Art Arfons (La Lechera), Saturday, 29 October 2011 20:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

apparently they did it
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/05/us-mexico-drugs-hackers-idUSTRE7A408C20111105

sonderangerbot, Saturday, 5 November 2011 15:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

hm, that is a somewhat misleading post -- "they" = zetas, "did it" = released hostage and threatened to kill 10 people for every name released, should any names ever be released

In a post written in Spanish on the group's Latin American blog, the members said they had called off the action after the Zetas met a demand to release a kidnapped group member, and that: "We can say that, while bruised, he is alive and well."

The hacker group said the person was freed with a note warning that if information were released, the cartel would make the kidnapped member's family suffer, and kill 10 people for each exposed name.

Anonymous members previously threatened by video to release names and addresses of taxi drivers, journalists and police officers who they said acted as "loyal servants" to the cartel to see if that would prompt arrests.

They said they were "fed up" with the cartel's actions, particularly the alleged kidnapping. For much of the week, people claiming to be Anonymous members have gone back and forth saying the hacker action was canceled or would go ahead.

Anonymous, a loosely knit group that has attacked financial and government websites around the world, had in September claimed responsibility for orchestrating the shutdown of several Mexican government ministries, but did not give a reason for that action.

Barrett Brown, a Texas hacker who posted details about the planned action, said via his Twitter account: "I will be continuing the fight against the cartels."

Brown said via a post on Pastebin he would avoid revealing names that would trigger the ire of the Zetas but still intended to send information to the German newspaper Der Spiegel for confirmation.

"In the meanwhile, I will be going after other cartels with the assistance of those who have come forward with new information and offers of assistance," he said.

Yasmine Teeth (La Lechera), Saturday, 5 November 2011 15:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

my students went from comatose to talking over each other when we started talking about this yesterday btw.

Yasmine Teeth (La Lechera), Saturday, 5 November 2011 15:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

Talking about the Anonymous threat or the whole situation?

your way better (Eazy), Saturday, 5 November 2011 16:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

seems increasingly likely that the entire anonymous story was bullshit from the start

max, Saturday, 5 November 2011 16:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

how you mean?

sonderangerbot, Saturday, 5 November 2011 16:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean has any single thing that barrett brown said been corroborated by any other person, reputable or not?

its like when your friend is all "oh my canadian girlfriend isnt visiting anymore, we broke up"

max, Saturday, 5 November 2011 16:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

like remember when anonymous had 40,000 emails from news corp/the sun? what happened to those?

max, Saturday, 5 November 2011 16:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

Wasn't it LulzSec who had them, and did they get pinched?

your way better (Eazy), Saturday, 5 November 2011 16:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah sorry it was "lulzsec." iirc only some of them got arrested, there were wild claims of the emails being hosted on a server in china, still no word

max, Saturday, 5 November 2011 16:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/us/us-mexico-tunnel-leads-to-tons-of-marijuana.html

am I bad for thinking that they should have burned the marijuana in the tunnel and made the world's most awesome hotbox

dayo, Thursday, 17 November 2011 12:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Meanwhile, in Chicago... (just posting this in case it escaped anyone's eyes last week)

http://www.fbi.gov/chicago/press-releases/2012/latin-kings-nationwide-leader-augustin-zambrano-sentenced-to-60-years-in-prison-for-rico-conspiracy-and-related-gang-crimes

CHICAGO—The highest-ranking leader nationwide of the Latin Kings street gang was sentenced today to 60 years in federal prison, the statutory maximum, after being convicted at trial last April of racketeering conspiracy (RICO) and related charges involving narcotics trafficking and violence that plagued numerous neighborhoods on the city’s north, south and west sides. The defendant, Augustin Zambrano, 51, a “Corona” of the Almighty Latin King Nation, who was responsible for overseeing the illegal activities of all factions of the powerful street gang with some 10,000 members in Illinois alone, has been in federal custody since 2009 and must serve at least 85 percent of his sentence.

La Lechera, Sunday, 15 January 2012 21:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Does anyone have any thoughts about this rash of prison breaks? Things are looking extremely ugly in the department of law and order in Mexico these days.
Here's what the NYT has to say: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/22/world/americas/guards-implicated-in-mexico-prisons-deadly-gang-attack.html

Additionally, here's an argument about legalization from a more pan-Latin American (or at least Central American) perspective
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/02/should-central-america-legalize-drugs/253707/

Laura Lucy Lynn (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 February 2012 02:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

^^ Bumping this good read.

Clancy Fans and Fancy Clans (Eazy), Sunday, 4 March 2012 19:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

That is so scary. When we traveled Mexico by train in the 70's I remember Presido,TX being pretty scary just across the border from Ojinaga, Chihuahua. All of Chihuahua at the time was more less scary. Once in Marfa, the train took off too Mexico with guards sitting on top of the train car with huge weapons. I thought that memory was a scene from a movie until my grandmother told me it was something that really happened on a trip into Mexico.

We stopped taking the train by 1979 and switched to Mexicana. The early 80's in Sinaloa felt safe despite all the Federales with shades and big weapons riding in groups of 6 on the back of small pick-up trucks.

My mom still travels to a dubious spot in Sinaloa to visit my grandmother twice a year. It may not be obvious to those around me but inside I am a nervous wreck for her, not to mention conflicted and resentful. While I know it is very hard to not see loved ones knowing the dangers and going anyway, at this point, just seems so irresponsible and asking for trouble. I wish she would stop.

*tera, Sunday, 4 March 2012 20:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Summit of the Americas kicks off today -- Guatemala is offering up a formal proposition to introduce a discussion of decriminalization. It's a step. Here's a link en esp http://noticias.lainformacion.com/policia-y-justicia/narcotrafico/guatemala-propondra-en-cumbre-comision-que-analice-despenalizacion-de-drogas_vr7Tv0Qs6Vhj9U455hOmK5/

two overweight dachshunds with three eyes (La Lechera), Friday, 13 April 2012 18:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

this also, as mentioned briefly in the above story:

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2012/05/federal-government-asked-to-help-solve.html

omar little, Thursday, 3 May 2012 23:05 (1 year ago) Permalink

not sure if this was posted but this is a series of cartel maps of mexico:

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2010/01/maps-of-mexico-cartels.html

omar little, Thursday, 3 May 2012 23:09 (1 year ago) Permalink

warning: graphic pix

omar little, Friday, 4 May 2012 23:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

there were 23 in total (including decapitated heads left in ice boxes behind the city hall): http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/05/bodies-bridge-23-mexico-drug

seriously, i don't know how many times i can read a story about all this and say 'fucking hell'.

Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Saturday, 5 May 2012 07:16 (1 year ago) Permalink

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2012/05/police-find-37-mutiulated-dead-near.html

Milenio reported late that six women and 43 men were among the dead. Previous reports had said a narcomanta left at the scene had been removed, but reportedly said "100 percent Zetas" Another Associated Press dispatched said that the victims were migrants heading to the United States. A late revised report on the website of Milenio said the some of the victims had the facial features of individuals from South America. The report also said the narcomanta had the symbol of Los Zetas only, probably the letter Z, suggesting Los Zetas likely committed the crime.

omar little, Sunday, 13 May 2012 18:44 (1 year ago) Permalink

i started reading about this today, read about the dude who got his face cut off and sewn onto a soccer ball, and then stopped

really hard to say what to do about this, i imagine them doing something like just suspending the (mexican) constitution and due process and full-on declaring shoot-to-kill no questions asked war on these guys, but then again i imagine the corruption is so rampant that drug dudes have infiltrated the army already and who would know who to shoot in the first place

the other idea people are always throwing out is sealing the border but i don't see that as economically feasible

i mean we could legalize weed and we probably will at some point but i doubt we'll ever legalize meth and heroin and coke and i figure that's where the real money is for the cartels anyway

the late great, Sunday, 13 May 2012 20:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

also guns

(also zetas are former military)

former personal denim advisor to the mayor, (La Lechera), Sunday, 13 May 2012 20:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

you do sort of have to wonder whether this will ever start to creep north of the border, if not why not and if so what we might do about it

the late great, Sunday, 13 May 2012 20:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

MS-13 is north of the border

elan, Sunday, 13 May 2012 20:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

yeah i know and i know they've done some crazy stuff like put out a hit on an ICE agent in NY but i was more referring to the level of violence, afaik they haven't done anything like killed 30 people on a bus yet

the late great, Sunday, 13 May 2012 20:41 (1 year ago) Permalink

From what I understand, the cartels don't want to risk the full wrath of the US, so they mostly try to do things on the quiet north of the border.

The Reverend, Sunday, 13 May 2012 21:19 (1 year ago) Permalink

Familiar URL, but some context in this article:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Drug-gangs-resort-to-horrific-killings-3535925.php

Hanna speculates that Guzman may be hoping to gain control of Nuevo Laredo before the July 1 presidential elections in Mexico, which seem poised to return the former ruling Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI, to power.

caro's johnson (Eazy), Sunday, 13 May 2012 21:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

Reverand, El Paso and Nuevo Laredo have had their share of problems.

*tera, Sunday, 13 May 2012 21:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

You mean (viejo) Laredo, right? Nuevo Laredo is on the Mexican side.

The Reverend, Sunday, 13 May 2012 21:45 (1 year ago) Permalink

From what I understand, the cartels don't want to risk the full wrath of the US, so they mostly try to do things on the quiet north of the border.

so here's a question - not to be dense, but what exactly is the "full wrath" of the US? and why aren't they afraid of the wrath of the mexican govt? is it because we have a much more transparent govt with much less corruption? or because it's mostly easier to make an honest buck in america than a dishonest one

(by honest of course i mean one that doesn't involves chainsaw decapitations and corruption i mean passing officials briefcases full of money)

the late great, Sunday, 13 May 2012 23:16 (1 year ago) Permalink

just speculating, but i expect that the mexican cartels are more-or-less used to working against (and with) the mexican gov't. that's a familiar situation for them, "the way things have always been". the ire of the american government, otoh, isn't something they ordinarily have to contend with, and i don't imagine that they're eager to invite it.

10. “Pour Some Sugar On Me” – Tom Cruise (contenderizer), Sunday, 13 May 2012 23:24 (1 year ago) Permalink

sooner or later they will kill someone from the new york times, then we'll see results

the late great, Saturday, 19 May 2012 08:31 (1 year ago) Permalink

I learned a new word from a (Spanish) friend yesterday -- alevosía -- and I think it's worth mentioning here. We were talking about work and blablabla and she asked me if there's a word in English for the killing that happens when it's not just premeditated, but also gruesome and overzealous. For example, someone is shot in the head, and then the body is mutilated for no apparent strategic reason. That kind of killing. And I couldn't think of anything. We were talking about work and engaging in that sort of hyperbole, so she wanted to use the correct word/phrase to describe a situation. The Merriam-Webster dictionary did not satisfy my friend, and I was wondering --

-- is there a word in English for that and I just don't know it?
-- is this a word like fusilar that has (afaik) no direct one-word translation in English?

(Added tidbit: Apparently fusilar also means plagiarize (informally), a tidbit I am VERY happy to learn)

game of crones (La Lechera), Sunday, 20 May 2012 19:53 (1 year ago) Permalink

won't anyone answer my questions about alevosía?

game of crones (La Lechera), Friday, 25 May 2012 15:40 (1 year ago) Permalink

La Lechera I think we call that "overkill"

cosi fan whitford (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, 25 May 2012 15:45 (1 year ago) Permalink

wordreference translates alevosía as either treachery, aforethought (as in murder aforethought) or premeditation so your friend's use my be colloquial or new.

Mad dog killing? I don't think English has a single word. Gruesome, barbarous, deranged all spring to mind as adjectives but overkill lacks enough punch to convey what she's talking about.

Love Max Ophüls of us all (Michael White), Friday, 25 May 2012 15:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

Overkill makes me think of someone trying too hard or wasting effort. Drug-trafficking atrocities are meant as terrorizing warnings.

Love Max Ophüls of us all (Michael White), Friday, 25 May 2012 15:51 (1 year ago) Permalink

overkill comes from the nuclear arms race initially tho iirc. so pretty punchy there.

the fey monster (ledge), Friday, 25 May 2012 15:54 (1 year ago) Permalink

Did not know that, interesting.
I still wouldn't imagine anyone describing what is going on in Mexico as "overkill" based on the changing connotation of that word over time.

game of crones (La Lechera), Friday, 25 May 2012 16:02 (1 year ago) Permalink

Overkill implies there is a correct amount of kill and you, friend, went over it.

game of crones (La Lechera), Friday, 25 May 2012 16:02 (1 year ago) Permalink

mayhem

the late great, Friday, 25 May 2012 16:03 (1 year ago) Permalink

Are you guys familiar with fusilar?

game of crones (La Lechera), Friday, 25 May 2012 16:05 (1 year ago) Permalink

It's a one-word verb that means "to kill by firing squad".

game of crones (La Lechera), Friday, 25 May 2012 16:05 (1 year ago) Permalink

I'm sure there's a Greek word for it, Achilles dragging Hector around the walls of Troy is an example kinda right

xp yeah same root as "fusillade" right?

cosi fan whitford (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, 25 May 2012 16:06 (1 year ago) Permalink

Right. Afaik, there is no widely used one-word verb equivalent in English?

game of crones (La Lechera), Friday, 25 May 2012 16:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

I'm sure it comes from fusil. Fusiller in French (which comes from fusil, a gun or shotgun) means to shoot, though tirer, (literally 'to pull') is used more often for a single shooter. Fusiller tends to mean there were several shoots from several people.

Love Max Ophüls of us all (Michael White), Friday, 25 May 2012 16:11 (1 year ago) Permalink

Interestingly, if you fusilles someone with your eyes, in English it would be to look daggers at them.

Love Max Ophüls of us all (Michael White), Friday, 25 May 2012 16:14 (1 year ago) Permalink

This documentary is showing in Chicago this weekend:

Odd Spice (Eazy), Saturday, 26 May 2012 18:45 (1 year ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/us/drug-money-from-mexico-makes-its-way-to-the-racetrack.html

Pretty interesting. Not sure if this was posted elsewhere.

polyphonic, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 18:05 (1 year ago) Permalink

yeah that was a great story. reads like a real life Breaking Bad episode.

dmr, Wednesday, 13 June 2012 16:33 (1 year ago) Permalink

since you're the expert, should I start making picks based on whether the word "cartel" is in the horse's name?

It works when you see a greyhound from Kenosha.

pplains, Wednesday, 13 June 2012 16:35 (1 year ago) Permalink

i can't remember the last time i read through all 6 pages of a NYT story. this one was worth it. thx poly

toandos, Thursday, 14 June 2012 00:35 (1 year ago) Permalink

yeah, great read

they loooovin the crut (The Reverend), Thursday, 14 June 2012 02:05 (1 year ago) Permalink

if i was that dude villareal i think i'd have gone to jail instead of turned. zetas don't fuck around!

the late great, Thursday, 14 June 2012 02:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

plenty of zetas in jail too

decrepit but free (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 14 June 2012 02:52 (1 year ago) Permalink

well if he hadn't informed then the zetas in jail would be cool, right?

the late great, Thursday, 14 June 2012 02:53 (1 year ago) Permalink

if i was that dude villareal i think i'd have gone to jail instead of turned.

ya srsly

they loooovin the crut (The Reverend), Thursday, 14 June 2012 03:13 (1 year ago) Permalink

was thinking the same thing

catbus otm (gbx), Thursday, 14 June 2012 03:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

the article talked around villareal being gay, right?

toandos, Thursday, 14 June 2012 08:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

Referred to him as being "effeminate".

pplains, Thursday, 14 June 2012 12:09 (1 year ago) Permalink

and being interested in women's fashion

they loooovin the crut (The Reverend), Thursday, 14 June 2012 12:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

still

they loooovin the crut (The Reverend), Thursday, 14 June 2012 12:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

i was thinking maybe that's why he didn't want to go to jail?

the late great, Thursday, 14 June 2012 14:53 (1 year ago) Permalink

possibly not him?!

Porto for Pyros (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Sunday, 24 June 2012 00:00 (1 year ago) Permalink

Apparently a "car salesman"/body double(?) -- http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/mexico/120623/felix-beltran-el-chapo-el-gordo-guzman-arrest-sinaloa-drug-lord

The US Drug Enforcement Administration was credited with providing the intelligence that led to Thursday's raid, and had applauded the arrest, the Washington Post reported.

RCMP, Sunday, 24 June 2012 04:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

New William Finnegan report:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/07/02/120702fa_fact_finnegan

Odd Spice (Eazy), Monday, 25 June 2012 23:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

i have a fondness for targeting institutions for their role in the global drug trade

A US Senate investigation has disclosed how lax controls at Europe's largest bank allowed dirty cash to be laundered for almost a decade.

The report into HSBC, released ahead of a Senate hearing on Tuesday, says Mexican drug money passed through the bank over seven years.

Suspicious funds from Syria, the Cayman Islands, Iran and Saudi Arabia also passed through the bank.

HSBC said it expected to be held accountable for what went wrong.

The damning report comes at a difficult time for the British banking sector, with standards and practices are under the spotlight.

Critics say the current furore over the manipulation of the Libor inter-bank interest rate is the latest example of a banking system in need of fundamental reform.

The report also concludes that the US bank regulator, the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, failed to properly monitor HSBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18866018

nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 16 July 2012 23:15 (1 year ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

Not really drugs, but guns -- is anyone following the reception of this Fast and Furious report from the inspector general?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/justice-ig-critical-of-atf-in-gun-operation/2012/09/19/379daf18-0273-11e2-8102-ebee9c66e190_story.html

The inspector general’s report recommended that the Justice Department review the actions of 14 officials and consider whether disciplinary action is warranted. Among them are former acting deputy attorney general Gary Grindler, Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer, former acting ATF director Kenneth Melson, former ATF special agent in charge William Newell and Deputy Assistant Attorney General Jason Weinstein.

The inquiry “did not find persuasive evidence that any supervisor in Phoenix, at either the U.S. Attorney’s Office or ATF, raised serious questions or concerns about the risk to public safety posed by the continuing firearms purchases or by the delay in arresting individuals who were engaging in the trafficking,” Michael Horowitz, the Justice Department’s inspector general, wrote in the 471-page report. “This failure reflected a significant lack of oversight and urgency by both ATF and the U.S. Attorney’s Office.”

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Friday, 21 September 2012 16:02 (1 year ago) Permalink

There's a link to a pdf of the report if reading 500 pages of government document is your bag.

these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Friday, 21 September 2012 16:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Shit... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/26/maria-santos-gorrostieta-dead-mexico-mayor-tortured-killed_n_2193219.html?utm_hp_ref=world

Earlier this month, Maria Santos Gorrostieta, a former small-town mayor in the drug-trafficking western state of Michoacan in Mexico, was reportedly kidnapped in broad daylight in front of her young daughter.

A few days later, her body was found by the side of a road in the southern part of the state. It is believed that the woman was tortured before she was killed, the Los Angeles Times reports.

Gorrostieta had previously survived two assassination attempts, the LA times adds. The first, in 2009, had claimed the life of her husband, Jose Sanchez, another former mayor of the town; while the second, three months later, had left her badly wounded.

The newspaper continues:

Gorrostieta had been mayor of Tiquicheo, a remote town in the so-called hotlands of Michoacan, farmland firmly under the thumb of drug-trafficking cartels. She had denounced traffickers; she also had to confront accusations that her late husband was involved in criminal business.

Gorrostieta, whose mayoral term ended in 2011, reportedly knew that her life was constantly in danger. Yet, even after her husband was murdered and the second attempt on her life left her riddled with bullets and "in constant pain," Gorrostieta refused to give in, the Christian Post notes.

Elvis Telecom, Monday, 26 November 2012 23:03 (1 year ago) Permalink

ugh

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Monday, 26 November 2012 23:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

Is there an expert on this situation on ilx that could give me some kind hope? or is it worsening?

Van Horn Street, Monday, 26 November 2012 23:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

I think La Lechera is probably the most-versed on ilx in this stuff?

these bitches is my sons and i make dad jokes (The Reverend), Tuesday, 27 November 2012 00:30 (1 year ago) Permalink

I have nothing hopeful to add here at the moment, I'm afraid. It's my belief that by the time the news gets to US major news outlets, it's already somewhat out of date. So to prognosticate about whether things are getting "better" or "worse" is kinda futile.

However, I do think that changing attitudes about the various facets of the "war on drugs" in the US (Jarecki doc + Colorado vote signal something, even if no one is sure exactly what) could be a sign that some kind of change is on the way. On the other hand, Obama hasn't had a lot to say about Latin America lately.

In sum, who knows. I sure don't.

passion it person (La Lechera), Tuesday, 27 November 2012 00:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

MONTERREY, Mexico -- Searchers pulled 10 bodies from a well in northern Mexico on Monday, near the site where 20 members of a Colombian-style music group and its crew disappeared late last week, according to a state forensic official.

It was hard to determine how many more bodies were submersed in the water, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to comment publicly on the case.

Nuevo Leon state Gov. Rodrigo Medina earlier told a local television station, "We have evidence that indicates that (the bodies) may very well be the members of this band," though he said experts were still working to identify the corpses.

Sixteen members of the band Kombo Kolombia and four crew members were reported missing early Friday after playing for a private show at a bar in the town of Hidalgo north of Monterrey.

The forensic official said authorities had been searching for two days when they came upon the well Sunday along a dirt road in the town of Mina, about 140 miles (225 kilometers) from Laredo, Texas.

People living near the bar in Hidalgo reported hearing gunshots at about 4 a.m. Friday, followed by the sound of vehicles speeding away, said a separate source with the Nuevo Leon State Investigative Agency. He also spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to be quoted by the news media.

The officials added that gunfire is common in the area and said investigators found spent bullets nearby.

Relatives filed a missing persons report on Friday after losing cell phone contact with the musicians. When they went to the bar to investigate, they found the band members' vehicles still parked outside.

Kombo Kolombia has played a Colombian style of music known as vallenato, which is popular in Nuevo Leon state. Most of the group's musicians were from the area, though state officials said one of those missing is a Colombian citizen with Mexican residency.

It was Mexico's largest single kidnapping since 20 tourists from the western state of Michoacan were abducted in Acapulco in 2010. Most of their bodies were found a month later in a mass grave. Authorities said the tourists were mistaken for cartel members.

Members of other musical groups have been murdered in Mexico in recent years, usually groups that perform "narcocorridos" that celebrate the exploits of drug traffickers. But Kombo Kolombia did not play that type of music, and its lyrics did not deal with violence or drug trafficking.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/01/27/3203748/colombian-style-band-missing-in.html#storylink=cpy

christmas candy bar (al leong), Monday, 28 January 2013 22:36 (1 year ago) Permalink

EEK! Not sure if I want to work around south Texas anymore. When I was in Port Isabel in 2010 people around there kept talking about the problems across the border in a way that made it sound activity was never far from the town. I am from a border town but I guess security or activity just didn't make it across often.

*tera, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 06:21 (1 year ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

Since Chicago has made international news lately for pointing a finger at Guzman (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21462254), it seems worth noting what else is going on in Chicago

"... it's essentially like Chapo Guzman has 100,000 Amway salesmen working for him." (says Jack Riley, special agent in charge of the DEA's Chicago division.)
http://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/archives/2013/02/22/drug-arrests-drop-in-chicago-but-still-snare-thousands-in-black-neighborhoods

Last week officials sent the latest message that their chief targets are major drug operators—and not the guys on the corner—when the Chicago Crime Commission and DEA named Mexican drug cartel leader Joaquín Guzmán Loera "public enemy number one." Nicknamed El Chapo, or Shorty, Guzman leads the Sinaloa cartel, which the DEA believes is responsible for 80 percent of the heroin and cocaine in Chicago.

As intended, the declaration made international news. But the situation it highlights is a little more complex than the headlines suggested.

Guzman and Sinaloa don't actually peddle drugs on Chicago's streets. Officials say low-level cartel affiliates, or groups who buy from them, smuggle their products to the city or nearby suburbs. From there the goods are sold to street gangs.

and that sounds like a gong-concert (La Lechera), Friday, 22 February 2013 16:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

there have been rumors going around in the news that el chapo was killed in a gun battle

http://www.forbes.com/sites/doliaestevez/2013/02/22/was-mexican-billionaire-drug-kingpin-el-chapo-guzman-killed/

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 22 February 2013 21:54 (1 year ago) Permalink

Another one of those times that makes me realize that by the time news ("news") reaches people like us, it is OLD NEWS. I wonder what's really going on.

I was watching the Pablo Escobar novela for a while, but then I fell behind and lost track of what was happening. It's fascinating how much networks have changed, and how the landscape has changed when the product is the same, more or less.

and that sounds like a gong-concert (La Lechera), Friday, 22 February 2013 21:58 (1 year ago) Permalink

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/26/world/americas/mexico-disappeared/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

More than 26,000 people have gone missing in Mexico over the past six years as violence surged and the country's government cracked down on drug cartels.

Mexico's Interior Ministry announced the staggering statistic on Tuesday but noted that authorities don't have data about how many of the disappearances are connected with organized crime.

The 26,121 disappearances occurred during former President Felipe Calderon's six-year administration, which ended on December 1 when Enrique Pena Nieto assumed the presidency.

Pena Nieto's government has formed a special working group to focus on finding the missing, said Lia Limon, deputy secretary of legal matters and human rights for Mexico's Interior Ministry.

Locating people "is a priority for this government," Limon told reporters.

christmas candy bar (al leong), Wednesday, 27 February 2013 00:27 (1 year ago) Permalink

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/01/world/americas/mexico-young-assassin/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

(CNN) -- A 13-year-old boy who had confessed to being an assassin for a Mexican drug cartel was among six people found murdered execution-style, authorities in the central Mexican state of Zacatecas have confirmed.

The boy's body was found Thursday alongside a highway in the municipality of Morelos.

The bodies of five other people, four females and one male, were also found at the same location. Officials say they had all been shot execution-style with high-caliber weapons.

"They all appeared to be young people, but we're still in the process of positively identifying the bodies," Nahle Garcia said.

Speaking about the most recent incident, Nahle Garcia said he's not surprised. "It's really unfortunate, but we're seeing more and more young men who drop out of school and end up selling drugs on the streets," he said. "They all end up the same. They either end up in jail or the cemetery."

christmas candy bar (al leong), Saturday, 2 March 2013 01:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

:(
i'm always wondering if someday one of these kids is going to filter through my class
at least he would still be alive!

and that sounds like a gong-concert (La Lechera), Saturday, 2 March 2013 03:25 (1 year ago) Permalink

speaking of kids,

The proportion of the Mexican population that is literate is going up, but in absolute numbers, there are more illiterate people in Mexico now than there were 12 years ago. Even if baseline literacy, the ability to read a street sign or news bulletin, is rising, the practice of reading an actual book is not. Once a reasonably well-educated country, Mexico took the penultimate spot, out of 108 countries, in a Unesco assessment of reading habits a few years ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/opinion/the-country-that-stopped-reading.html?nl=opinion&emc=edit_ty_20130306&_r=0

and that sounds like a gong-concert (La Lechera), Wednesday, 6 March 2013 19:32 (1 year ago) Permalink

:-(

h8 this thread. My family are all middle-class & living safely in querétaro, & all my experience of mexico is overwhelmingly positive (although of course I was aware of all this stuff the whole time I was there). Such a great country being betrayed, I could cry

dat neggy nilmar (wins), Wednesday, 6 March 2013 21:25 (1 year ago) Permalink

Is there any further news on El Chapo and whether or not he was killed?

Walter Galt, Thursday, 7 March 2013 15:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

i'd be really shocked if he actually was

frogbs, Thursday, 7 March 2013 15:14 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yeah, seems to be bogus from digging around a bit.

Walter Galt, Thursday, 7 March 2013 17:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...
3 months pass...
1 month passes...

of interest:

http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/independent/narcocultura/

christmas candy bar (al leong), Wednesday, 28 August 2013 19:03 (7 months ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-17/heroin-pushed-on-chicago-by-cartel-fueling-gang-murders.html

a decent summary of the connection between guzman and chicago/its many murders

‘Logistical Genius’
Law enforcement officials say Guzman chose Chicago for the same reasons Sears, Roebuck & Co. once centered catalog sales in the city: It’s a transportation hub where highways and rail lines converge and then fan across the Midwest. The disappearance of factory jobs and the struggle of public schools on the city’s South and West sides also give Guzman tens of thousands of willing salesmen who are jobless and poorly educated.
In 2009, a Guzman distributor ran 11 warehouses and stash houses in Chicago and southwestern suburbs. One was in Bedford Park, steps from a facility used by FedEx Corp., operator of the world’s largest cargo airline.
“He’s a logistical genius and a hands-on guy,” Riley says, adding that Guzman is also a billionaire. “If he had turned his talents to legitimate business, he’d probably be in the same situation moneywise.”
The Chicago police strategy of saturating high-crime areas with patrols appears to be cutting the homicide rate. Murders through Sept. 8 fell 21 percent -- to 297 from 377 -- from the 2012 period. Yet the authorities have made scant progress in cracking Sinaloa’s supply chain.

special beet service (La Lechera), Thursday, 19 September 2013 20:46 (7 months ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Different version of above story:

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/October-2013/Sinaloa-Cartel/

Lover (Eazy), Wednesday, 23 October 2013 14:51 (5 months ago) Permalink

Hey, has anyone else seen The Counselor? Because it feels like it really is about trying to comprehend cartel violence, instead of just using it for a pulpy story.

Meanwhile:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/28/mexican-militias-vigilantes-drug-cartels

Bailey (Collins) Lover (Eazy), Wednesday, 30 October 2013 04:03 (5 months ago) Permalink

can't see that ending well

well if it isn't old 11 cameras simon (gbx), Wednesday, 30 October 2013 14:36 (5 months ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

http://www.vocativ.com/11-2013/avocado/

This one's especially sad/fascinating.

Ned Raggett, Monday, 25 November 2013 16:52 (4 months ago) Permalink

it seems like they're bleeding everyone dry. even the waiters and bartenders in Cancun (who may not even make $15k a year) have to pay a fee or get burned alive.

frogbs, Monday, 25 November 2013 17:01 (4 months ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

great photo essay about grupos autodefensas that are disarming cartels (and others) in various mexican states
http://www.businessinsider.com/mexican-vigilantes-battle-drug-cartel-photos-2014-1

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Monday, 13 January 2014 20:35 (3 months ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

el chapo -- arrested! http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-mexico-drug-arrest-20140222,0,4503693.story#axzz2u4Q6KWth

MEXICO CITY -- Joaquin Guzman, "El Chapo," the most wanted drug lord in Mexico and a multibillionaire fugitive, has been captured, a senior U.S. official said Saturday.
Few details were available. But Guzman has long been considered the top prize and most elusive figure in an extensive, ongoing drug war that has left tens of thousands of Mexicans dead.
Guzman led the Sinaloa cartel, the most powerful, richest and oldest of the drug-trafficking networks in Mexico. The group is responsible for the shipment of tons of cocaine and marijuana to the U.S.
The senior official said Guzman was captured early Saturday in the Sinaloa city of Mazatlan and was being transported to Mexico City. No shots were fired in the capture, the source said, which was based on information from an informant.
In recent days, the Mexican marines have been raiding numerous properties in Sinaloa belonging to close associates of Guzman.
Guzman was arrested in Guatemala in 1993 but escaped from prison in 2001 and has been on the lam ever since.

we slowly invented brains (La Lechera), Saturday, 22 February 2014 18:50 (1 month ago) Permalink

wow

espring (amateurist), Saturday, 22 February 2014 20:29 (1 month ago) Permalink

Story on the Sinaloa cartel's start in Chicago in the 90s:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/25849267-418/drug-cartels-the-doctor-helped-run-chicago-operation.html

That's So (Eazy), Saturday, 1 March 2014 17:31 (1 month ago) Permalink

this has been all over the news lately. seems like people are finally starting to sort of understand/care about how the international drug trade has operated for the last bazumpteen years?

we slowly invented brains (La Lechera), Saturday, 1 March 2014 17:42 (1 month ago) Permalink

For a good primer, try this radio series. The text that accompanies the segment pretty much says it all
http://revealradio.org/tracing-chicagos-heroin-supply-chain/

Tracing Chicago’s heroin supply chain

Ever wondered how heavy narcotics such as heroin make it to America’s streets? Where it comes from, how it’s distributed and who it hurts?

That was the focus of a yearlong investigation by WBEZ and the Chicago Reader, which tracked the heroin supply chain from Mexico to Chicago and across the Midwest.

In our feature segment on “Reveal,” reporters Chip Mitchell and Natalie Moore explain the economics behind the heroin resurgence and paint a detailed picture of how the drugs end up in American communities.

According to the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Sinaloa cartel is responsible for 70 to 80 percent of the narcotics moving through Chicago. On Feb. 22, its leader, Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman, was arrested in Mexico.

Explore the full series from WBEZ and the Chicago Reader here.

we slowly invented brains (La Lechera), Saturday, 1 March 2014 21:19 (1 month ago) Permalink

4 weeks pass...

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