Search & Destroy: Sun Ra

Destroy: A Black Mass, a super-lo-fi you-are-there-with- earplugs-in document of a 1965 play by Amiri Baraka that Ra and co. improvised music to. Badly.

i've got to add "Solar Myth Approach, Vols 1 & 2", "Nubians of Plutonia", and the Evidence version of "Space is the Place".

Destroy: never really heard a BAD Sun Ra disc, but the second vol of 'Heliocentric Worlds' is a major let-down after the first alb, which heavily features John Gilmore at his hard-blowin' best.

Destroy: jazz recommendations from soul-less people.

Search: Atlantis. Title track finally fulfills fantasies I had of what Sun Ra would sound like: alien, cold, forbidding, etc. The rest of the album is pretty good too.

Destroy. Pictures of Infinity. Not really bad, but also not spectacular live album. Classic wrong entry album that makes you go "is this what all the fuss is about?"

Additional recommendations: Monorails and Satellites, Sun Ra playing solo piano. Like many Sun Ra recordings, this took a few listens (in this case separated over a number of years) before I came to appreciate it.

Other Planes of There. I don't know why this seems to be considered less accessible than Atlantis or the Magic City, both of which are too chaotic-sounding for me (at least in their title tracks). This starts off a bit more spare than the title tracks from those albums. There are some difficult moments, but overall I like it. The recording quality on the title track is perhaps "cruder" than that on "Heliocentric Worlds vol.I:," but I find it warmer, though I can't explain how such lonely and alienated sounding music can also be warm. At times I think I hear echoes of Varese (sp?). It includes "Pleasure" which always blows my mind. The last rack, which maintains more or less a waltz rhythm throughout is probably my least favorite on the album, but it's pretty good.

Angels and Demons at Play/The Nubians of Plutonia is a pretty accessible and enjoyable CD. (Did I just say anything there? Probably not.) Fate in a Pleasant Mood/When Sun Comes Out is also good. The first album is relatively straight, while the second one gets into more "uncompromising sonic exploration" sort of territory. The rediscovered bonus track of Marshall Allen playing clarinet is a treat. It sounds like he is work on a theme very close to one that appears on one or more other tracks (elsewhere), possibly "Next Stop Mars."

Destroy? I'm reluctant to say destroy anything, since Sun Ra albums I didn't like have often grown on me. I am less keen on his live albums in general than a lot of Sun Ra fans seem to be, though I love seeing the Arkestra live.

Correction: John Gilmore plays clarinet on this track.

Incidentally, Marshall Allen's Arrival Day is this Saturday (the 25th). It will be celebrated at the Tritone in Philadelphia.

I just found out that Szwed has a Miles Davis book coming out this year. Oh happy day!

The ideal starting point is the soundtrack to the Ra movie (can't remeber name). There's a lot of varied material there and it serves as a sort of Ra comp.

I like the group improvisations and the stuff he does with his moog (big slabs of noise: a take no prisoners approach there). Will have to get more records and the biog. Swzed is a good writer.

''in the credits to the ra movie (remake: Queen of the Damned) is the name WILLIAM DHALGREN: this has always intrigued me''

Why?

THESE records shop has a rack fully devoted to Ra (one of the guys who runs it absolutely worships him). That's where i got that CD from. Google it, they run a mail order service.

In a similar vein, I recently got "Black Myth/Out in Space" - "Out In Space" being another electronic maelstrom, this time lasting almost 38 minutes! Believe me, not a CD for the faint-hearted!

I have to confess however that I'm not a tremendous fan of his so- called "great" albums from the mid-60's: "Magic City", "Heliocentric Worlds", "Atlantis". I think these albums are remarkable but I don't find myself listening to them very often - they're more to be admired than loved. Certainly, if you're looking for jazz don't look at the "Heliocentric Worlds" albums - these are probably the least "jazz" jazz albums I've ever heard, closer in fact to Varese or even Boulez.

I have to confess however that I'm not a tremendous fan of his so- called "great" albums from the mid-60's: "Magic City", "Heliocentric Worlds", "Atlantis". . . . Certainly, if you're looking for jazz don't look at the "Heliocentric Worlds" albums - these are probably the least "jazz" jazz albums I've ever heard, closer in fact to Varese or even Boulez.

I don't really like those albums either. (I have only heard one of Heliocentric volumes, but I own the other volume and the other two titles mentioned.) Have you heard "Other Planes of There"? The title track covers somewhat similar material to "Heliocentric Worlds" but is much warmer and less rigid sounding. I don't mind jazz that doesn't sound much like jazz, per se, but I share your lack of enthusiasm for these albums.

I enjoyed 'Exotic Forest'. A constant bassline but lovely 'middle eastern' blowing (cliche alert!) and rolling percussion. And whenever sun ra plays on that piano (he sounds like a classical pianist who had burnt his hands but was still able to play) the music would change direction.

Definetely need to listen more. There's much more but i need to go to sleep.

anyway, will get some more recs soon...

Generally when I read that something sounds "middle eastern" in a published review, I find that it either sounds only very vaguely middle eastern or it doesn't sound middle eastern at all. (For instance "Circe" from "When Sun Comes Out" doesn't sound like anything a middle eastern singer would do, though the liner notes describe it that way.)

I'll try to track some of this stuff down (yet some more for the record pile but I need to visit the 'world music' section at tower anyway).

I don't care much for Flamenco singing, which sounds to me like degenerate Arabic singing (not that I am saying it really is, but to my Arabicized ears, it kind of sounds that way); but I do like the guitar. Where I take salsa classes, there is also a Flamenco dance class. The teacher's husband is a guitarist who plays for the class. When I first heard him playing I was amazed by how good he is. I did kind of a double take, like, wow, this guy is actually really good, not just the teacher's husband who happens to play a little guitar or something. In fact, do you know much about Flamenco guitar, because that's something I'd be interested in hearing recommendations for? (I probably should get off my butt and be daring and go to a little bar at the edge of what used to be the barrio, where this guitarist sometimes accompanies his wife, etc.)

yeah...i've looked into flamenco guitarists but I can't remember any names (i think there was a webpage somewhere, I suppose I feel a thread coming).

If not, could somebody hurry up and do it?

there WAS a bootleg about a year ago but i was assured this was official. i don't really know what to believe with rough trade cos it all depends who you speak to. try the scot with the beard. i assume you went to the covent garden one with the tramps and the cheese and the skaters and whatnot

if all fails i'll dub it 4 u

yes, I went to the covent garden shop.

muhaha in that case i will get a another copy and flog it on eBay

High points from "Live at the Wonder Inn": a performance of "Angels and Demons at Play" and "How High the Moon." The latter, of course, is just the sort of "material in a traditional jazz vein" I was talking about, but I like it nevertheless. I think I like this song now. I notice that during much of "Spontaneous Simplicity," someone is playing a clave rhythm. I have heard something close to the clave rhythm before in Sun Ra songs, but I don't think I've ever heard it played this overtly.

The sound on "The Majestic Session" is a little more problematic. When the music gets loud and all musicians are playing simultaneously, the distortion is pretty bad. It's a pity, since the energy is definitely there. I like Sun Ra's solo at the beginning of "Velvet," though it's hard to make it out. I haven't quite sorted through the four pieces titled "Majestic" 1-4. I think my favorite is the 4th.

I like the CD as a package (aside from the nasty adhesive which doesn't want to come off). The liner notes are good, and there are some very cool photos from the Wonder Inn. (For a more adequate review, check the one somebody who knows a lot mroe than I do posted on amazon.com.)

how about all of the supposedly 200-odd el-saturn lps out there that aren't re-issued ? anybody got some saturn vinyl they'd like to mention ? ok, recommending these odd small-run bootleg type lps would be pointless, but if everyone here had one real el-saturn piece of vinyl, it might be a different one from anyone else's here, hopefully

200+ privately issued lps -- some very limited, issued casually at gigs from the '60s to the '80s -- let's hear about the ones that haven't made it to the re-issue process and maybe may never re-appear -- made it into anyone's collection ?

how about it ? not s/d, more a special swap meet on saturn ?
some el-saturn record that you and possibly you alone might be able to say something about ..

I'm not a collector of rarities. There is too much that is easily available which I haven't gotten to (not just for Sun Ra, but in general).

Space is the place, what else?

Singles is an invaluable reference.

Solo Piano (Vol. II) (a.k.a. St. Louis Blues) is a revelation.

Presumably it's http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=11:11:51|AM&sql=Bcnez97u7krat

'Strange Strings' is relentless acoustic noise, it does not let up. It's what I was hoping 'Atlantis' would sound like.

'Secrets of the Sun' is probably my favorite of the early stuff, where they're still caught between big band traditional playing and free form.

I remember hearing a version of "Astro Black" (presumably from the album of the same name) that sounded better, but this was back when I was a teenager, and my recollection is pretty vague after 20 or so years of not hearing it since.

well done ra-kist. nothing to fear as i said on top of the thread to deraymi (you both thought it was diff...that's 'uncanny' (sp? vocab?), that is).

(yes i tried html type stuff and i fucked it up)

[Note: kist=stone sarcophagus, therefore: ra-kist would be the coffin of the sun, or the earth itself, since the sun descends into the earth, each night.]

(So Ra-Kist Scientist is my esoteric name.)

o. nate, I'm honestly a little leery of the live recordings in general. (Nothing Is. . . is probably my favorite of that bunch, though I also really like the live half of the quirky Music from Tomorrow's World that came out last year, but that's from the 60's. I don't especially like anything I've heard on Leo records, except for brief moments. Actually Live at the Pitt Inn (in Japan) is not bad, but I still listen to that more for individual tracks than as a whole album (and it's expensive).

Really? I've been slowly building up my Sun Ra collection and so far one of the richest veins I've been mining are all those John Sinclair-produced reissues of the Arkestra's appearances at the Ann Arbor Blues & Jazz Festival ("Outer Space Employment Agency", "Life is Splendid", "It is Forbidden") - I like the blend of early 70s synths, the chants, and the free-blowing horn sections. What's your take on these?

I saw them do a show of mostly Disney songs in Philadelphia many years back, when June Tyson was still around, and it was great, but the Leo CD didn't work for me. (They also did a smaller scale Disney tribute this past summer, but it wasn't as impressive as that earlier show.)

Shakey, I don't know if I've heard those recordings.

I'll see if I can dig up that tape and make a copy for you if you like.

Shakey, it's not sound quality: it's just that sometimes I feel the live spectacle doesn't translate well into merely a sound recording. For instance, I've heard more than one live recording where the opening "space chord" sort of chaotic blowing session just gets tedious. Or, the goofier end of their material somehow comes across as too goofy, where I don't think it would bother me in concert. I don't have a turn-table either.

I'm technologically very limited.

Do you do orgies?

Sorry for late notice. I wasn't paying much attention.

strange strings is pretty incredible, a real bizarre one off: I was thinking that Ra heard ornette coleman's Fiddle playing on 'Live at the golden circle vol II' and decide to try that with the arkestra.

It's prob one of the few times that Ra got into total free improv but then you have marshall allen (?) gargling through a megaphone too and its almost designed to throw your bearings off once you get the 'idea'. Its funny and uncomfortable at the same time.

'My brother the wind' is kind of like that but with Ra's Moog playing, there's some sax, percussion, flute but Ra gets sounds out of it that are a true wonder but its just the way he improvises on it that really put me on the edge of my seat. I like the way he engulfs the accoustic instruments in electronics and the way he uses to almost bully these players into keeping up with him.

'Lanquidity' is sci-fi funk: 'accessible' music I find its a hard trick to pull off for someone who has been 'out there' but its pretty good. if you're looking for lots of improv or jazz you won't find it but a melding of the two with some good excellent moments.

Listening to it now: I guess I would agree with you in the sense that you don't have lots of Arkestra members improvising at the same time, as you sometimes do.

No, actually the Arkestra had been messing about with stringed instruments and various exotic sonorities since the 1959-60 (if not before) - for instance "Interplanetary Music" on "We Travel the Spaceways" et al. As usual, Sun Ra was ahead of the game but because he didn't release records in any great quantity till 1965-66, no-one outside of fellow musicians and NYC/Chicago jazz buffs had ever heard him.

but ok I was just trying to make a link between ornette's violin playing and ra there and place them in the 'not very musical' thing that free jazzers do and which i like.

I'm sure they'd be flattered by this description.

(I forgot to mention: the piano record is from the 70's, and those who have heard it are saying very positive things about it.)

It's laid back 70's stuff with Ra on an odd swirly cosmic electric keyboard, kind of accessible, but then you get taken by surprise by odd bits of soloing on the horns, sometimes very long sustained tones, sometimes harsh outbursts. The rhythms are a little more regular than usual, though there's usually a counter-rhythm just around the corner waiting to complicate things.

Too much Jibber Jabber, not enough music.

the verdict is SEARCH.

especially searchable is vol. 2 (they're sold seperately). it starts out with a very mellow, quiet introduction called "friendly galaxy #2" with june tyson and some other fellows alternating on chants/calls with the band tuning up and stretching out in a trad/bluesy style. this segues into "spontaneous simplicity" which has some stunning percussion, everyone rattling away on shakers and congas while two drummers play rolls in the background, and the band sketching lovely, optimistic figures over it. it's actually very reminiscent of "prince of peace" or "summun ummun bukmun", makes you wonder if Sun Ra caught some Pharoah Sanders shows in france.

then we get versions of "world of the lightening" and "journey through the outer darkness" (as part of the "black myth" suite). "outer darkness" is the really gnarly synthesizer solo from "concert for comet kohoutek", here it's teamed up with some poetry from june tyson.

there's a sense of narrative that's implied or hinted at in ra's work. here, the excellent pacing makes the narrative definite - it's a space adventure with a beginning, a middle and an end. probably one of a few albums i have that deserve to be called "a trip".

(i'll probably pick up "cosmos" this weekend when i go to get the new roy ayers, unless anybody can recommend an alternate quiet/mellow sun ra set from the 70s)

That 'Concert from the Black Forest' circa 1974 (?) with the 15- minute synth freakout, that's great

this is the same as the "it's after the end of the world" album i keep bringing up. and i have to admit, yeah, the synth freakout is pretty astounding (even if the rest is pretty weak and there are other all-around probs. with the reissue). i am sort of sorry i let it go, the white noise bit is keerazy.

those really are my favorites. they've got aspects of everything he does.

will have to search for 'black forest'.

I almost bought La Nuits de la Fondation Maeght, last week I guess, but I wanted to try some new things. I mostly like Assif Tsahar/Cooper-Moore's America, one of the things I picked up instead. Also, I'm listening a lot to Borah Bergman's Meditations for Piano, though I'm having trouble making up my mind about it. (It does make good, if brooding, background music, but I'm afraid Bergman wouldn't be thrilled with that observation.)

is the US version of Cosmos a 24-bit remaster? (i'm an audiophile i'm a tool)

i wish they had more band pictures on sun ra albums, i think maybe you can learn things about the album before listening by looking at their costumes, a la the message in herbie's shirts

I don't agree. I don't like it as much as I initially did. (Maybe with Ra it is a bad sign when I immediately like one of his CDs?) But I'm not aware of any other Sun Ra CD with that sound, so to me it seems to justify its own existence by having a distinctive style. If anything, it might be too accessible though, for vahid.

I keep waiting for someone who knows enough about Sun Ra and Miles Davis to do a comparison of their work in the 70's. In a loose way, they were doing something similar--I think. (I'm not really into Miles, so don't know that material.)

Yeah, did he ever! He was a big fan. Only, I can't think of an album that was entirely comprised of that stuff. But on the early records, he often threw in an exotica-styled track or two, like the title cut on Sun Song or "Paradise" on Sound of Joy. All those early 50s records are great, even though some slate them for being too trad big-band like or some nonsense like that. Couldn't be farther from the truth. Actually, you should look for the record called The Futuristic Sound of Sun Ra. I think it has been packaged under a number of titles, but that was the original title. It's on CD on Denon. I think it was a quintet date; it's got a few tracks of cocktail-derived, chill-out kind of sounds that the band of course warps slightly in its way. It doesn't have the guys cawing like tropical birds as on say a Baxter record, but the vibe is there..

Yeah, I think my problem with Cosmos was that after owning like 30 Ra records it just didn't take me someplace strange or anything. But yeah, as I said, certainly not a bad record, just not one I'd start with.

Did ra use the fender rhodes often, or was it just organ, or piano, or synths/moog and so on?

But this has Ra's "Reflex Motion," which I don't think has appeared on any official recording before, and when I've heard it live, it's been great. (Actually, very much from the out end of things but it works for me. Great mix of dynamics, colors, and textures.)

I will probably buy this, but I might wait to by it directly from the Arkestra. I don't know why I'm being so negative, anyway. I've enjoyed the Arkestra a lot the last several times I've seen them (all after Sun Ra's departure).

I can't believe how long it's been since I've seen them. I will have to watch my local weeklies.

i am listening to "the realm of the lightning" from vol. 1 right now and it's very much like black dice. there's long blippy sections where the horns and synths imitate a herd of elephants battling martian invaders which give way to these banging rolling five-minute tribal drum beatdowns. both discs are sort of like that.

it's not so much like the boredoms as it is like the AEC covering EYE's "Rebore vol. 0".

I can't comment on Allen's compositions. I've seen the Allen-led Arkestra once before, and they played some of his pieces, but I don't remember much about them. However, his out blowing is classic, classic, classic. Listening to Allen's playing on some of those 60s and 70s Arkestra albums you can really hear where John Zorn got a lot of his ideas from.

I whole-heartedly agree with this. I love the 50s Arkestra records that I've heard. In some ways I find that era of the band even weirder than the later, more definitively "out" stuff. I think that's because the whole Fletcher Henderson-style swing band has disappeared from the culture and to hear a band playing in a style like that, but with Sun Ra's exotic flourishes and odd harmonizations peeking through the surface is a real time warp. Nowadays, the really "out" stuff has become paradoxically more normal sounding.

(Uh oh the Marxist puritan who disapproves of people communicating on the internet (or something) from the department next door just walked through.)

Live:

Angels and Demons at Play
Spontaneous Simplicity
Space Aura
'S Wonderful
It Ain't Necessarily So
How High the Moon
China Gate

Studio:

Majestic 1
Ankhnaton
Posession
Tapestry From an Asteroid
Majestic 2
Majestic 3
Majestic 4
Velvet
A Call for All Demons
Interstellar Lo-Ways

Since "El Viaje" is going to be on at 9:00.

(I could go hear Charles Ellerbee tonight at the Tritone, but I'm too tired and that place gets very smokey.)

I listened to We Travel the Spaceways/Bad & Beautiful on the way to work.

Anyone wanna do a POX sonny tunes?

Heliocentric Worlds, Vol. 3

Is the soundtrack available anywhere or am I about to record this off the DVD? I think I'm about to record this off the DVD. It's one of the best things I've ever heard from them.

I've recently given Sun Ra mixes to two people coming from very different backgrounds, and their main comment was roughly, "I was expecting something more bizarre." It's pretty much Sun Ra's fault (and probably intention), but I think there's a lot more to his music than that. (This isn't exactly directed at anyone here. I just fear that people aren't always listening in a way that prepares them for what is there in the wide stretches of Sun Ra's music that are neither retro-swing nor hardbop nor freakishly weird/campy nor high energy free jazz jamming.

???

pls explain!!

I see what mr. rockist is saying though, that there are a lot of things in Ra's catalog that are kind of in-between the out-OUT freakouts and the reverent swing/bop homages, but most people don't really expect that.

x-post:

Personally, I don't get too interested until the early 60s. I like some of the 50s things, but they don't hit home as much as the material that starts to emerge at the beginning of the 60s.

(I guess you know he arranged for Fletcher Henderson. Interesting that you mention him, if not. I wouldn't know what Fletcher Henderson sounds like, really.)

It's pretty much Sun Ra's fault (and probably intention)

what is?

people aren't always listening in a way that prepares them for what is there in the wide stretches of Sun Ra's music that are neither...

i am wondering which wide stretches you are talking about? what way do you think people listen to sun ra?

honestly, i don't think many people listen to sun ra at all. i mean, everybody pays lip service but sometimes i think i am the only person buying sun ra albums at the record stores i shop at. they never restock and stuff never goes off the shelves ...

what is?

He created a very a strong image, obviously. That's what I mean. He brought that into the foreground. (And I'm not saying I don't like the spectacle aspect: I generally have loved the Arkestra's concert spectacles, and especially did when Sun Ra was still alive.) I think he was very interested in being deceptive (or maybe just appearing to be deceptive). He talked about his being a Gemini and that dual nature, and how you don't necessarily get what you see. I think he might have been happy that people would come to his music with false expectations. I don't think any of this is original. I probably just haven't been very clear. (I'm taking a lot of this from impressions of Space is the Place, either directly or indirectly.)

i mean, everybody pays lip service but sometimes i think i am the only person buying sun ra albums at the record stores i shop at. they never restock and stuff never goes off the shelves ...

Hmmmm. He seems to sell in Philadelphia.

haha yeah you should hear him on the ark & the ankh, the interview disc with henry dumas.

at one point he is all "you can never know a real person, just their image ... it's like presidential elections, you never vote for the person, just for their image" and henry dumas is like "so why do you choose the image you choose" and sun ra says in his good natured drawl (so you can almost hear the sly smile!) "well, you know, everybody has to be themselves, and i just got to be me!"

Dude, I didn't know that! I do know that Sun Ra was a big fan, or maybe I assumed. One of the things I like so much about Sun Ra's music is that he really synthesized the history of jazz, or his love of jazz music, and warped it and did his own thing with it, and continued to push it. The big band arrangements are really suggestive of the glory years of the '20s in a lot of ways (the start-stops, harmonically, structurally), even as the band got more 'out' it was still BIG, and very meticulously & smartly arranged (a la Fletcher's arranger Don Redman). I think that's why the music continues to be exciting in a live setting w/o Sun Ra's 'interplanetary' (ie weirdo) prescence. It has the beauty of the spontaneity and the telepathic improv relationships between players but also the composition signposts of Henderson or Ellington in that it's very thoughfully composed in a very studied jazz way. I guess the word 'jazz' can be interchanged with 'American music' (or maybe that's what vahid might say!). I think if you say anything about Sun Ra, he knew what he was doing or what he was trying to do, nothing's tossed off.

My theory is that this is why the players stuck around so long. Not necessarily b/c they bought into the space/intergalactic spirituality, but b/c the music was consistently interesting to play, complex and spontaneous, and dependent on the individual personality of each star player (like in Ellington's band; Cootie Williams had parts written for him, and his solos were written into the music b/c of the personality of his playing).

There were some interesting loose ends in the last posts to this thread. Unfortunatly, I don't have any knowledge of the areas being brought up, but maybe someone has something to add?

I'm pretty sure they'll get to show it on BBC two at some point so maybe we can all talk about this a bit more then.

"Fate" is kind of typical of Arkestra stuff from Chicago '60/'61, a mix of influences - Latin/ exotica/ big band/ some bop - all nice stuff, that track "Space Mates" (a flute/piano ballad) is especially good.

"When Sun Comes Out" is an odd sort of record. First track is ca. 4 minutes of gongs and assorted tinklings and patterings with a female vocal towards the end which suggests Sonny owned a few Yma Sumac records! The second track sounds like it was recorded at the bottom of a mineshaft - a very deep mineshaft - but the rest of the album is very professionally recorded (it's in stereo!), with none of the heavy reverb and sonic jiggery-pokery of other albums recorded around the same time (NYC '62-'63). It's not as "out there" as contemporaneous Sun Ra recordings but still pushes a few boundaries and has THE definitive version of "We Travel the Spaceways", which lurches menacingly and unsteadily ever onwards like an evil robot in cheesy 50s sci-fi movie.

http://www.youtube.com/w/Sun-Ra?v=3oJZgZqG8CM&search=sun%20ra

http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/ourtown/060929/sunra/

btw I am super-excited to see my first ever Arkestra show on Saturday.

Sat Oct 21 Palace Theatre Main Hall
3pm: doors
4:20 Residual Echoes
5:10 Future Pigeon
6:10 Watts Prophets
7:10 Money Mark
8:10 Six Organs of Admittance
9:10 White Magic
10:10 OM
****11:20 Sun Ra Arkestra****

I have no idea what they'll sound like, but they've still got some of the original players and this has pretty much been my only chance to see them.

You know, vahid, seriously, you should get Janus as a companion to Solar-Myth Approach. There are some similarities. Weird amorphous vocals with that irritating ehcoey sort of sound from Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy.

hm! i've never even seen that one. i'll keep an eye out ... i went through a phase of only listening to "quiet place ..." and "cosmos" and "live at nuits maeght festival 1+2" and "solar myth approach 1+2" ... gotta go back to the classics now ...

how is "sleeping beauty", i keep seeing that used at amoeba.

just got Foundation Maeght Nights vol 1 - only listened to side 1 so far but I dug it a bunch, thanks for the rec. Keepin my eyes out for Futuristic Sounds but haven't seen it yet...

um no wait its Volume 2 - anyway I like it, now must find copy of Volume 1

is it strange to find a sealed vinyl copy of "My Brother The Wind" on Saturn? 'Cause I just did. Will report back. Have not heard the Foundation records.

If anyone's wanting to convert the uninitiated, I'd recommend the Evidence 'Fate in a Pleasant Mood/When Sun Comes Out' CD. It was the first I ever got, almost exactly 10 years ago, at the tender age of 18. 'Fate in a Pleasant Mood' from 1961 is a uncommonly serene, pleasant record, even compared to the earlier albums, and is likely to appeal even to folks who can't even handle Coltrane or Mingus. But then 'When Sun Comes Out' as enough in the way of more "out-there" stuff and percussion pieces to make the curious listener want to go into the records that followed: 'Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy', 'Other Planes of There', 'The Magic City' and so on.

is it strange to find a sealed vinyl copy of "My Brother The Wind" on Saturn?

It is if it's an original pressing...but a great many reasonably-priced Saturn reissues are readily available.

Definitely worth seeking is the all-too-brief "Sleeping Beauty" from 1978. Features some of John Gilmore's most fantastic playing...Art Yard Records did a beautiful, great sounding LP reissue a year or so ago.

'Fate in a Pleasant Mood' from 1961 is a uncommonly serene, pleasant record, even compared to the earlier albums, and is likely to appeal even to folks who can't even handle Coltrane or Mingus.

But it's still very distinctly Sun Ra's music. Not that I thought you implied otherwise, but I just wanted to throw that in there. I don't think it's a "Here's a Sun Ra album that doesn't really sound like Sun Ra, so you might like it" type of thing.

"Here's a Sun Ra album that doesn't really sound like Sun Ra, so you might like it"

Like handing someone a copy of Lanquidity. That doesn't even sound like the other records he cut that same year.

Well, see I'm not sure I'd agree with that either, but I don't want to get into a debate about that one. (But see Milton Parker's comments above.)

I was having doubts as to whether Solar-Myth Approach was as great as I initially thought, but most of it is so pure, it's fantastic. It's that sound that is so much his own. You have to just let the tracks come and go though, you can't try to grasp it. Three minutes of the most beautiful, poignant little melody that just evaporates and then it's on to another piece of the musical sampler.

Indeed, Rockist Scientist, that wasn't what I was implying.

However, I should say that I especially like 'Fate in a Pleasant Mood' because I've never liked the earlier albums much, and have always been a little confused about albums like 'Sun Song' and 'Super-Sonic Jazz' getting high accolades and too much attention relative to all other Sun Ra.

I don't like the stuff from before Fate in a Pleasant mood as much either. In the right mood, I enjoy some of it. I see Jazz in Silhouette recommended particularly often by jazz fans to other jazz fans. I guess for people who really like hard bop, that's a good starting place.

(I've decided again that the beginning of Solar-Myth Approach is a little lacking. There are better examples of similar things elsewhere in Sun Ra's catalogue. But some tracks are just heavenly.)

Disco 3000 is apparently getting an expanded CD reissue that will include the full set from the show

SUN RA LIMITED EDITION 28 CD sets
£45 on this pre-announcement.
Plus Postage Costs
Scheduled release in 2 weeks
Please order as soon as possible, there are only 300 in total, we only have a few of them and
I’m sure they’ll vanish fast.

SUN RA
and the Omniverse Jet Set Arkestra
The Complete Detroit Jazz Centre Residency
December 26, 1980 - January 1, 1981
28 high quality CD-Rs with three-colour printing on
each disc in custom-made cases with poster-size insert with
track listings. High quality desk recordings.
Total time: over 26 hours

Only a few extracts from these eleven concerts have ever been previously released. On the three New Year's shows there is no song overlap, and they perform at least NINETY (!) Sun Ra compositions in one night.

We managed to secure some of these, while they last and are offering
them to our mailing list before anyone else.

IT’S NOT ON THE WEBSITE - CONFIRM YOUR BOX BY REPLYING TO THIS EMAIL!

Total edition limited to 300 copies.

ReR Megacorp
79 Beulah Rd.
Thornton Heath
Surrey CR7 8JG
UK
44 (0) 208 771 1063
www.rermegacorp.com

Crikey!

I can't in good conscience purchase this right now, unfortunately

excessive

why do nerds love excess so much

Last night KCSM (San Francisco) played NPR's 'Jazz Profile' of Sun Ra: 'Cosmic Swing'. It was... out there.

I don't have time to read this whole thread now, but I will say that I've been really enjoying "... Visits Planet Earth" from '66. I like a lot of his sixties work, especially with Ronnie Boykins on bass. Has some great, almost kraut-ish groove action as well as fine larger-band arrangements.

Lots of new videos up on youtube. This is from around the period when I saw them for the first time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPrsMUFXnqs

Enlightenment

Current Arkestra sounds really solid here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbw0WrZsRRw

It's been a few years since I've seen them. Maybe before I leave Philly, I can get up the energy to go out and see them again.

Uh, actually it's a cover band. Well, the cover band sounds pretty solid.

I was starting to think, wait, where is Marshall Allen? How come I don't really recognize anyone? I am disgraced.

Recent spate of Sun Ra reissues and first-time releases of archival material:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_st?rs=301668&page=1&rh=n%3A301668%2Cp_32%3Asun+ra&sort=-releasedate

(I'm not in a buying mood but I'm sure I'll be getting to some of this in the next year or two.)

Space is the place!

yeah, sort of a motherlode, right?

i picked up "creator of the universe", "strange strings" (already had a bootleg), "disco 3000"

very interested in "some blues", "night of the purple moon" and the rest of the sun ra tapes series ...

ms f0zi has been buying and listening to the sun ra research discs, i can't say i'm totally into these but then again she's more into the solo piano stuff than i am too.

i think one thing about these obscure 70s recordings that bothers me is the lack of big horn sections and group chants.

"sun ra tapes" should have been "lost reels"

some of the lost reels are very heavy on chants, i think

"disco 3000" has some ultra-berserk synth solos, if that's your thing. up there with the black forest concerts.

re: "black forest concerts", i also never mentioned buying "black myth / out in space"

http://i20.ebayimg.com/03/c/01/a3/3e/f3_7.JPG

which is the UNabridged version (with verbose notes) of the "it's after the end of the world" concert

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf800/f876/f87697b4cv8.jpg

i slammed it upthread for being chopped up, not having liner notes, etc

you gotta admit it has a nice cover, though

I remember really like the solo piano concert that ws issued on Leo, perhaps bcz I ws (stupidly) expecting it to be a kind of microcosm of his orchestral music...quite a slow-burner.

so many reissues... a friend loaned me the double CD Disco 3000 reissue, that was great

we got "Purple Moon" at the radio and I dubbed it but haven't listened to it in full yet.

(haha xpost here) so much stuff coming out, still. 4 boot CDs were just torrented on D!m3 a while ago after surfacing on eBay.

media dream >>>>>>>>>>>>>> disco 3000

media dream is incredible. thanks, art yard.

(ps i thought disco 3000 was sort of mediocore)

i still have no idea where to begin! (guess i'll read this thread, then.)

so ... is it just me or are "on jupiter" and "sleeping beauty" more destroy than search?

Search: SOLAR MYTH APPROACH 1&2
Destroy: Atlantis (I know, weird, right? But I find it boring)

I'm not into Atlantis either. I haven't heard On Jupiter or Sleeping Beauty (except maybe in parts).

I am amazed that people can actually listen to Sun Ra. After listening to the Quasimoto album, I was really excited to get into him. Sadly, I don't think I could have been more disappointed. Maybe by a stroke of bad luck I bought his most unlistenable album (Atlantis), but it is fucking painful to listen to and I'm afraid to get anything else of his for fear of the same thing happening.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying -- Atlantis = boring lo-fi noodling with cool album cover and general mystique.

perhaps your problem is where you live? do you live in your parent's basement? it's impossible to *really* get sun ra unless you live in your parent's basement.

you crazy atlantis is good

so ... is it just me or are "on jupiter" and "sleeping beauty" more destroy than search?

first side of Atlantis is excellent, and the big freak-out has its moments.

Want:

http://espdisk.com/official/catalog/4054.html

Yeek, that looks great.

Picked up a copy of "Sleeping Beauty" maybe a month or so back, and it's risen to near the top of the Ra heap for me. Up there with Sun Ra Visits Planet Earth and Cosmic Tones For Mental Therapy imho.

that said, i've not heard even half of the sun ra extant.

I have that disc. It's not that great. It's not 1967 Pharaoh, it's 1964 Pharoah, and he's pretty restrained. Had the two of them joined forces when Sanders was into his crazy pan-ethnic stuff - say, anywhere between '69 and '72 - it would have been awesome, but no such luck.

I still want it. I think I would probably like it. My favorite Paroah Sanders playing is probably on Journey in Satchidananda, which is more restrained than what he's best known for. (Of course, it's also a lot later than this CD with Sun Ra.) And I also tend to like this period of Sun Ra recordings.

my favorite pharoah is the one on the quiet parts of thembi and tauhid ... well that and the drone monster from izipho zam

i dunno, still not convinced by "sleeping beauty" or "on jupiter" ... too fusion-y for my taste, or too acid jazz, i guess. not that i dislike either fusion or acid jazz but that's not my go to for sun ra!

<3 this -- its totally like being drunk on a disco dance floor, the way the rhythms are all sorta woozy & sloppy. drunk disco

"you crazy atlantis is good"

yessir!

"boring lo-fi noodling" maybe van gelder was already booked up...

i saw him live a couple years before he died. didn't really know what to expect, i was like 20 and just heard he was this extremely eccentric jazz guy who claimed to be from outter space. paid 10 bucks to see his first show in a 80-seater basement venue. his band were all in these sequined snow-white-and-the-27-alien-dwarves costumes, he had some capoiera dancers in loin clothes (before anybody knew what capoiera was) and his set was about 90% disney tunes and ended with the whole band doing a conga line with the audience. i obviously paid another 10 bucks to see the second set, which was equally good, and contained no disney whatsoever. i was very saddened to hear he died a few years later.

that said, i very rarely hear anything of his recorded material that i really like that much. sorry! i might check out some of these recommendations just to see if i missed something, but i have a feeling i will be disappointed again.

space is the place (the movie) is great though!

I totally dig Sleeping Beauty and On Jupiter, some of my favorite stuff was when the Arkestra gets into those mellow swing grooves.

wow how many verb tenses can I mess up in a single sentence

my hero

messiahwannabe, I don't know what you've listened to so far, but if you've turned to the live recordings to try to recapture what you liked in the live performances, I would suggest trying some of the studio recordings instead and maybe try to put aside expectations based on the live performances. I saw Sun Ra a bunch of times, and have seen the Arkestra without him quite a few times as well (I lived in Philadelphia until recently) but I often find the live recordings disappointing; and on the other hand, some of my favorite Sun Ra recordings are the ones featuring a smaller stripped down arkestra. But that might just be me. If nothing else, there is a wide range of opinion on this thread.

(So, on the other hand, if you haven't listened to many of the live recordings, maybe that's what you need to listen to, or maybe you are right and you really will just be disappointed again.)

The current Signal to Noise has a nice write-up/interview of Marshall Allen which then segues into general discussion of Sun Ra (some of it generic, some of it new to me, especially on the issue of preserving archival Ra-related material). And then more photos of Marshall Allen and company.

And a nice (everything is nice) wrap up of recent reissues and original archival releases (with helpful information about sound quality and what's on things and what's recommended by the author).

I think this is probably the recording of Astro Black I heard back in high school or back when I was an undegraduate. One of the Sun Ra tunes that got me interested in him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPXwnTlbCn8

Oh crap! That's for another post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk5jg5fo0kc

Actually, that's kind of disappointing. I remember it having more of a groove to it and being more like "Strange Celestial Road."

AWESOME

"where every month is 'black history month'"

lecture starts about an hour in btw

I continue to really wonder what the point of much of Allen's soloing is. It all ends up sounding the same to me. On the one hand you have John Gilmore, my favorite saxophonist ever, and on the other you have Marshall Allen consistently making discombobulated ugly sounds. I know this is a bit blasphemous for someone who considers himself a Sun Ra fan, but I have been listening to a lot of live Ra lately (I bought the big Detroit box set) and I can't avoid these impressions.

Also, much more generally, I don't tend to find that kind of full on free jazz blowing really "emotional" in a way I can recognize. Emotion needs to have more of a shape and form than that. It seems almost pre-emotional, just pure excitement-energy. Maybe that's what people like about it.

From way upthread: Listening to Allen's playing on some of those 60s and 70s Arkestra albums you can really hear where John Zorn got a lot of his ideas from.

I've never cared for Zorn's saxophone playing at all.

Fireside Chat With Lucifer is the shit

Search: Strange Strings (!!!), all ESP Disk titles, Magic City, Other Planes of There, The Solar Myth Approach, The Singles, The Great Lost Sun Ra Albums, Lanquidity, Fate In a Pleasant Mood, When Sun Comes Out, Space Is the Place (Impulse), Space Is the Place (OST)

Destroy: nothin really. Janus isn't that great. Not too psyched by the solo piano discs, but that's a personal quirk. ALso, I prefer the more 'out' stuff starting circa 1963 to the things before that. Again, a personal problem I'm sure.

anybody got any opinion on the recent doo-wop stuff reissues...? saw some of these at the store a few weeks ago and was curious but didn't feel like shelling out

Have not heard them but I'm not generally into his doo-wop (or any doo-wop for that matter). There is still a long list of other recent reissues I haven't gotten to yet that I'm convinced are great. If you can find that Signal to Noise discussion of recent Sun Ra reissues (mentioned above), it's worth checking out.

yeah I'm not really a doo-wop fan either, and particularly with stuff this early the actual sound quality is usually a bit of a barrier to my appreciating it. but I am curious

Have you heard any? I have Spaceship Lullaby on Atavistic and I can't say I've listened to it much.

The doo-wop items in The Singles collection are all pretty good & I'm not much on doo-wop in general myself. There is a certain quirkiness even there. Da Man couldn't help himself.

Very good. Spooky and slightly wonky. At least that's my recollection of Singles. Do you think that if you didn't know these were by Sun Ra, anyone could work it out?

damn herman really knew how to close out albums. "tristar" on 'somewhere else' is perfect

Search: New ESP Disk release of College Tour Vol. I: the Complete Nothing Is. Tis sweet.

anyone seen the touring Marshall Allen & James Harrar’s Cinema Soloriens and the Cosmo-Drama thing? film with marshall allen leading a quartet in accompaniment. tickets are kinda $$$ and i'm dithering.

This reminds me that there's a reissue I'm about ready to buy now.

anyone seen the touring Marshall Allen & James Harrar’s Cinema Soloriens and the Cosmo-Drama thing? film with marshall allen leading a quartet in accompaniment. tickets are kinda $$$ and i'm dithering.

?? First I've heard - would totally go if I could afford it

Worth it:

http://www.dustygroove.com/images/products/a/allen_marsh_nightlogi_101b.jpg

Allen is not resting on his laurels here at all: more classic flute playing, EVI (electronic valve instrument), saxophone both skronk and lyrical (and between). Shipp's playing not so far from Ra's a lot of the time here, though perhaps I am not doing Shipp's individuality justice by saying so (but at the same time it's kind of hard to see how the comparison can be construed as an insult).

that sounds great!

Allen is not resting on his laurels here at all

He is astonishing, he is EIGHTY SIX YEARS OLD and it is impossible to believe he is when you see him in the flesh - he really is from another planet!

huh thx for the heads up!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51v6sbCWwkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

I bought Helsinki 1971 and am just getting to giving it a somewhat attentive listen to it now. It's a little further toward the wild and woolly side than I had hoped for (ergo, Vahid and those with Vahid's taste in Sun Ra should probably get it). I don't love it the way I was hoping to, but I like it and I could easily imagine it growing on me over time, because lots of Sun Ra has done that. What really hooked me is was hearing a snippet of the version of "Enlightenment" on this which uses an arrangement I've never heard before. It sticks to a familiar, bouncy, reggae-like approach to the song but in the background there is this incredible, delicate semi-classical flute and horn passage going. And it's not just unrelated--it's playing off the song. What's scary is how good it is and the fact that I've never heard it before and for all I know it was a one time thing (though probably not). Although, truthfully, I'm far more interested in what's going on underneath than in the singing and the loping rhythmic part. And then they march around the audience stretching the song out (which doesn't really carry over so well to recorded form in general, though it's okay here) and I hear what sounds like cosmic wind keyboard playing.

That Mohammed Abdo song I accidentally linked to from this thread is really good incidentally.

woah, what's 'Helsinki 1971', Rudipherous? you've convinced me. i don't see it at my usual outlets...

It's not difficult to find. It's one of those Transparency releases.

From that Signal to Noise article I mentioned earlier on this thread:

Sheppard expresses particular pride in the release of Live in Helsinki 1971: "My absolute favorite. It's two CDs of a radio broadcast of such high quality that it sounds like a missing studio album. It will include a nine-minute interview DVD from the same time that was only air once on Finnish TV, all of this licensed from the YLE, the Finnish state radio network."

Here's a decent blog write-up:

http://sunraarkive.blogspot.com/2009/07/one-of-gods-by-bennett-theissen-blog.html

I'm working on the second disc tonight and it's more accessible for me than the first. It's got a lot of the space chants turning into jams. Overall, I think this will gradually find its place as one of the key live Sun Ra recordings. Or maybe I just want to talk up my new CD purchase.

Disc 1 of Helsinki 1971 is hardly as inaccessible as I have made it out to be (especially relative to Sun Ra's overall catalog). I think I have just had difficulty finding an extended period of time when I have had the right sort of attention to listen to it. I mean, yeah, okay, some of the Marshall Allen soloing here is pretty crazed, but on Disicpline 8 that only comes after a very slow build up. This version is 34 minutes long.

I'm going to confess something. I bought the Detroit residency box set, the one with 20+ discs. I'm embarrassed I still haven't made it all the way through it, since I've had it for a while now. I can't listen to things properly in this apartment. The walls and floors are too thin; I won't crank things up to a suitable volume because I get annoyed when others do the same. Anyway, some day I'll have more to say about the Detroit box. It definitely has it's moments, though I had to admit that hearing so many versions of the same songs from the same time period tends toward overkill.

It looks good on the top shelf of my cheap-ass entertainment center.

Think I'll throw on Lanquidity this morning.

Lanquidity is an excellent choice. I'm also curious about this 20+ disc box of Detroit Ra. Never heard about that before, and it sounds like something I need to look into. Helsinki is something I had already made a mental note to check out, and I'm also curious about the other releases I'm coming across on the Transparency label. Any word on those, other than the Helsinki disc?

I have never understood what the MC5 and Spacemen 3 versions of "Starship" are based on. According to wikipedia the MC5 based their version on a "poem" of Ra's... except there's no lyrics. And as far as I can tell, Ra himself never released a song called "Starship". Can nnybody explain this?

... the MC5 version has lyrics?

no of course it doesn't!

u mad.
Norton recently released 3 LPs of Ra reading his poetry with Arkestra backing http://www.nortonrecords.com/lps_new.php

? let me spell it out a little more clearly:

1) The MC5 have song called Starship. It is credited to "Sun Ra". It has no lyrics. Wikipedia says the song is based on a poem by Sun Ra. This is obviously contradictory information.
2) To my knowledge, Sun Ra has never released a song called Starship. He may in fact have a poem called Starship, but it is not in the book of Sun Ra poetry that I own and no poem entitled Starship is listed in the tracklisting of that Norton Records release.

Starship as it appears on Kick Out The Jams has lyrics.

But IIRC the S3 cover doesn't.

? are u saying u are listening to Kick Out The Jams and can't hear

Starship, starship take me
Take me where I wanna go
Out there among the planets
Let a billion suns cast my shadow
etc?

i would guess that there is no poem by Sun Ra called Starship and MC5 pinched lines from various poems, then felt guilty/wanted a cool writing credit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sVp16KKn18

this song is one of the best ever. so lol

wow, I've never heard that (not a big surprise - I'm basically only familiar with 6 albums from the 60's)
anyways, the drumming is particularly excellent

argh sorry yeah I was mixing up the S3 and MC5 versions (it's been a loooong time since I listened to the Kick Out the Jams version). so yeah. the poem.

From ilxor's jazz thread:

jazz forms the basis for my understanding of genre & criticism in a weird way -- the amg guide to jazz was probably the first music crit i eve read (thnx ron wynn!) and for a long time i had more 'contextual knowledge' of that genre than any other ... so its hard for me to recommend stuff cuz a lot of it is like, sun ra made sense to me in the context of having listened to lots of duke & basie & not really connecting that much w/ certain styles of free jazz, coltrane's later stuff makes more sense to me having known his stuff w/ miles, etc ... like each album you hear helps create a constellation that becomes more fleshed out over time ... the other thing is that seeing a great live performance will help u understand jazz x1000 than if u just listen to 'historical albums' or w/e

tbh i say wait on sun ra. hes got a massive discography & a lot of it makes more sense in the context of having heard more jazz

― *gets the power* (deej), Friday, January 21, 2011 11:39 AM (2 days ago)

My sense is that it would be quite possible to get into Sun Ra, in particular, without having much background in jazz. I was drawn to some of his music before I really had heard much of what had come before. I'm not remotely suggesting that it's better not to listen to him in the large jazz context, but I think I could have enjoyed him with that background, and I don't see where my increased familiarity with earlier jazz has really changed my perception of Sun Ra's music. One thing is definitely true though: enjoying an immense amount of his music hasn't increased my appreciation for jazz in general. I'm sure there would be more to appreciate in his work if I had more of an overall love of jazz, but there's still a lot there to enjoy for someone who mostly isn't a fan of jazz in general. His language seems pretty unique to me. A side note: I think having seen the Arkestra live made it more difficult for me to get into some of the recordings that later became favorites (like the material collected on the Out There a Minute collection).

(like the material collected on the Out There a Minute collection).

post is real interesting so i feel bad for zooming in to geek out on this one, but i love this lp -- it's kinda a good mix of simpler stuff and things that are more adventurous without being too difficult; like there's somewhere in space, which is fun, but it lasts like eight minutes.

It's hard to agree on which one of a bunch of not very impressive albums riding primarily on mystique is the best.

― hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Sunday, January 23, 2011 1:26 PM (52 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

***** ***** ***** ***** *****

without taking genre names into account, i was a big Ra fan 15 years ago, before i knew much Ornette or Monk. tried Ra again the other day just to confirm and i think he's kind of phony and he definitely bores me these days

― KC & the sunshine banned (outdoor_miner), Sunday, January 23, 2011 1:34 PM (44 minutes ago) Bookmark

^^^

surprising amount of snark directed at mr. ra in that thread this afternoon. idgi. i mean, he's obviously not to all tastes, but there's a sneering quality to to these posts that ILM usually reserves for "indie artists" and people who have the wrong opinions about rap.

Earlier tonight I had shuffle on while I was doing stuff and I hear something I don't recognize that sounds like a high school jazz band jam session except with organ. It was Sun Ra. [ /sneer]

lol sike I'm still sneering

Lanquidity is an excellent choice. I'm also curious about this 20+ disc box of Detroit Ra. Never heard about that before, and it sounds like something I need to look into. Helsinki is something I had already made a mental note to check out, and I'm also curious about the other releases I'm coming across on the Transparency label. Any word on those, other than the Helsinki disc?

― ImprovSpirit, Monday, August 9, 2010 1:13 PM (5 months ago) Bookmark

The Detroit set is consistently -- shockingly, even -- amazing. I almost regretted buying it before I heard it, assuming each disc would contain five minutes of great ensemble playing and/or soloing and 70 minutes of percussion/chanting, but that's not really the case. Inevitably, pieces are repeated throughout the set, but there's as high a proportion of Good Shit on this set as on any other Sun Ra release.

The Slug's Saloon set should be avoided, unless you think the Arkestra is best recorded/represented by a single microphone on the bass drum. There's also a set that purports to have Milford Graves in the lineup, but he's inaudible. The Horseshoe Tavern set should have been pared down to a single CD, as much of it, disappointingly, has the Arkestra phoning it in. The first disc-and-a-half of the Sun Ra All-Stars 5CD set has pretty dodgy sound quality, but when it improves, look out. Richard Davis is the standout player on this set, putting forth some of the most incredible playing of his career.

idgi. i mean, he's obviously not to all tastes, but there's a sneering quality to to these posts that ILM usually reserves for "indie artists" and people who have the wrong opinions about rap.

oh I think you get it. it's definitely a purist/"I HATE HIPSTERS" pose thing.

This Delft show from '71 is pretty incredible (amazed this hasn't been issued). The recently issued Paris show also from '71 is great. The Sun Ra mixes from Dr Auratheft (nine of them so far) are also worth hearing. And if you're looking for recommendations, NuVoid's writeups on Sun Ra releases are really helpful (even if for him most everything is 'essential').

Hm, Paris Tapes link should have been: http://www.rushhour.nl/distribution_detailed.php?item=55747

after feeling underwhelmed by the spate of recent art yard reissues of ra live in egypt, i'm really looking forward to the new space probe set

Uh oh, what's that?

press release

"An unusual record, mostly recorded in the early ‘60s with Ra, Marshall Allen, John Gilmore, James Jacson, Nimrod Hunt and Thea Barbara that explores stripped back forms and colour combinations - very far from jazz - and includes the extraordinary Conversation Of J.P. for piano and percussion. This and the opening track - probably recorded in 1970 - an 18-minute Moog solo, made just after Ra had newly acquired the instrument and was putting it through its paces, would make this an essential release in the Sun Ra canon – even without the rest of this excellent CD."

ooh!

recently watched the Sun Ra doc "Brother From Another Planet" - lots of great quotes from John Sinclair and others, used a lot of footage from "Space is the Place" and some other clips I've seen before - there was some unusually funky music in it, which I couldn't quite pinpoint. I just got "Lanquidity" and I don't think it was from that one... maybe "Strange Celestial Roads"...? What other sorta funk oriented stuff is there in his catalog?

watched the doc at Xmas around at a friend's place after getting it off Demonoid last year. Took me way too long before i watched it cos it is excellent.
As for spacefunk I think disco 3000 is also good. Seems to be a lot of stuff from about '78 to '82 in that area but there's also relatively acoustic Fletcher Hendersonisms around then.
found out that period actually starts by at least '76 when Cosmos appeared from thios thread.
There's also Nuclear War from the early 80s which was on the same label as the Pop group's Y if I remember right. Would like to find a lot more like Strange Celestial road though. Must check through live stuff.
Some of The Detroit Jazz Centre Xmas week 80 is in the area too. But there is a LOT of that to wade through. Also up on Demonoid.

80s Sun Ra goodies

may have posted this in some other sun ra thread but: http://fromnowherehere.blogspot.com/

just picked up Concert for the Comet Kohoutek today on CD

i would guess that there is no poem by Sun Ra called Starship and MC5 pinched lines from various poems, then felt guilty/wanted a cool writing credit

― zappi, Wednesday, December 15, 2010 8:08 PM

? let me spell it out a little more clearly:

1) The MC5 have song called Starship. It is credited to "Sun Ra". It has no lyrics. Wikipedia says the song is based on a poem by Sun Ra. This is obviously contradictory information.
2) To my knowledge, Sun Ra has never released a song called Starship. He may in fact have a poem called Starship, but it is not in the book of Sun Ra poetry that I own and no poem entitled Starship is listed in the tracklisting of that Norton Records release.

― from the lowly milligeir to the mighty gigahongro (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:13 AM

Kinda surprised this never got properly answered. The poem in question is called "There" (...is a land/Whose being is almost unimaginable/To the human mind," etc.) and Rob Tyson recites it as a climactic finish to "Starship". It appeared in the liner notes of Heliocentric Worlds Vol. II; dunno why it wasn't in the poetry book.

Fireside Chat With Lucifer - SO GOOD

So there's this 5-hour long "Ultimate Collection" available for $5 on itunes. Where does it get its tracks from? Is it worth bothering with?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Ultimate-Collection/dp/B004H9LFFE

randomly selected grab bag of early 90s evidence reissues

don't really have time to figure out what is what right now but the track lengths match the album sides with the same names. clearly they selected some albums and scrambled it up but i can't tell without making a spreadsheet or something if they used a few full albums or many albums and only a few from each or what.

shit link is here : http://www.discogs.com/label/Evidence+Music%2C+Inc.

FFS

http://www.discogs.com/label/Evidence%20Music,%20Inc.

thanks

http://www.discogs.com/label/Evidence%20Music,%20Inc.

well i see the problem. add the period to the link.

This Rocket Ship Rock comp on Norton - featuring all the Yochanan / Muck Muck stuff with rarities - is the pits.

Don't think I'll ever fully 'get' Sun Ra, but I keep trying. This album, though. Woof.

never heard of it...?

hmmm hardly sounds like a representative sampling, after a little googling. seems more like a rarity/novelty in his catalog

Yeah, it is. It's goofy late 50s stuff. But it's pretty awful all the same.

JFC why does anyone like Atlantis? It sounds like a single-mic tape recording of my old roommates fucking around after a party.

it sounds *way* better than your old roommates.

anyone got any opinions on this one
http://www.soundstagedirect.com/media/soul_vibrations_of_man_sun_ra%20copy.jpg

never having seen it or heard about it until now, first impression is that it might be the best thing ever?

or just more random "lost" tapes w/ amazing ca 2011 cover art and title

what is it?

here's a little info

Dusty Groove addendum to be taken with a grain of salt, I assume

looks like it's from 1977...?

just got it - listened to side 1 last night. really great sound quality, surprisingly mellow! very pretty dual flute melodies + ensemble vocal chants

Destroy everything. For real. Completely done with this stuff and much happier for it.

good luck

Recordings of the Arkestra, playing a Sun Ra favorites set at the Incubate festival http://soundcloud.com/incubate/sun-ra-arkestra-live-at-zxzw

I've owned Heliocentric Worlds since I was a teenager, but I always found it a bit eerie. Then again I know nothign about jazz.. If it's not too gauche to ask - what am I listening to / for exactly? What makes this special? Is his other work like this? I need context, otherwise it's a lot of drumbling and plarping.

Which volume?

oh crap. Volume 1? I'm assuming so anyway - oppressive red and yellow cover with a big dome shaped head staring at you.

wiki says volume 1.

LOL. It's not my favourite Ra album either tbh. Quick skim through of this thread should give you an idea of his wide range. However he was doing a lot of "eerie drumbling and plarping" from 1964-1967

'what am I listening to / for exactly?'

Listen for any bits that grab you; if nothing interests you, don't listen to it. xp

Same as most music...

Resemblance, unintended I'm sure, to (opening?) music from "Citizen Kane" is one of the more amusing things about this album

My advice would be, don't listen to it/try to hear it as "jazz." It's not necessarily because it's not "jazz" (that's a whole other discussion), but because waiting for identifying characteristics of a genre might put constraints on your listening experience. A teacher of mine used to advise those of us unfamiliar with certain musics to just have it on in the background while doing other things in order to acclimate yourself with it.

Lanquidity has been one of my all time favorites for quite a while. It was the first record I dropped on the turntable after picking up a new stylus. Some of the solo piano stuff I've heard is just unreal, as well. I am also a big fan of the short film A Joyful Noise.

Although ambient music is music as background I never ever listen to music in that way. I'd say take your time, one or two tracks, but if you get bored with it don't force it.

Same w/ragas, do it for 10 mins or so if you must, but its part of the challenge to immerse yourself. xp

kinda with xyzzzz about not forcing it - if you don't hear anything that interests you then well, yeah whatever. it shouldn't be WORK, you know?

otoh, with regard to dl's specific questions:

What makes this special?

I can't remember the specifics of vol 1 at the moment and don't have it here at work, unfortunately. I will say that when it comes to his composed melodies (horn charts, piano pieces, etc) I am always struck by the bizarre way they're constructged - the melodies don't resolve how you would expect, the harmonies are very odd. he'll have these catchy repeated phrases but then have these strange, clashing chords underneath for example. he really doesn't sound like anyone else, which I think is special.

Is his other work like this?

I wouldn't say any single album encapsulates his broad range of approaches. Maybe the Impulse! version of Space is the Place, but even there not really. He has solo piano stuff, small-combo post-bop, total chaos free jazz blowing, synth workouts, space disco, Disney covers, tribal drumming, spoken word/poetry/call-and-response vocal pieces, pseudo-exotica... the list is pretty long.

The style of Heliocentric Worlds was partly motivated by Ra's wanting to satisfy ESP label owner's taste for modern classical music. It's got more of a modern chamber music feel than much of his work. I hear Other Planes of There as covering very similar material, but in a looser more distinctively Ra-like fashion. I'm not sure what to say about how to listen to it, aside from keeping that in mind. It's not one of my favorite Ra albums. Maybe try comparing it to Other Planes of There.

(Can't remember where I read that, but presumably in the bio Space is the Place.)

OTM, much prefer Other Planes of There

"black mass"

this is ... different

funny that, I was just on the puns thread looking at Ms Tree and trying to think what the quote was 'Some call me Mr Ra, some call me Mr Ree & some cal me Mr. Mystery' is that it?
& next thing I find is this thread is now at the top of the new answers board.

I really enjoyed his psychedelic sci-fi blaxploitation flick, Space Is The Place.

Five discs into the Complete Detroit set, I could keep going for some time

I was just about to delve back into that box (it's a heavy commitment that requires advance planning/schedule-clearing).

Disc 9 ... lotsa percussion freakouts, still great so far, only fatigue I have is from the recording quality which right now is just a little harsh

late great - I've never heard Black Mass, what's so unusual about it...? Is that the one with him at the pipe organ?

what's unusual is that it's actually a live recording of a play by amiri baraka with sun ra and band doing accompaniment in the background!

the effect is not so different from when sun ra and june tyson are declaiming back and forth but it's been much harder for me to interpret what's going on, i think the action on stage is probably crucial to understanding. on top of that i think the characters are supposed to be symbolic rather than literal (like i think one character is like the spirit of black consciousness or something) and the conversations are much harder to follow than the things sun ra is saying, possibly because of sound quality.

there are some awesome parts though. there is one back and forth between two or three characters where they're arguing iirc about whether black people can think non-black thoughts even though they have black brains, could just as easily be about whether people can think thoughts that transcend people brains.

BTW

if anybody likes the drone-ier / freakier / stereophonic workshop side of sun ra's solo explorations i would highly highly highly recommend checking out the new don preston reissue, "filters, oscillators and envelopes". i keep hearing it compared to dockstader or stockhausen but honestly to me it sounds a lot like when sun ra is jamming on his moog except he somehow captures the interplay of a really tight free jazz group

it's definitely one of the best experimental electronic / drone reissues or albums i've ever heard

That Preston records sounds cool. Your description of it reminds me of the recent Joe McPhee reissue (or rather, issue of old, previously-unreleased stuff) Sound on Sound. Lots of overdubbing, echoplex fun, and distinctly Ra-esque "space organ."

it's probably more difficult than that though, it's not so much like the space organ of things like night of the purple moon but more the full bore freakout of things like the early 70s black forest or paris concerts

ah right the amiri baraka one, yeah I've never heard that. never heard Astro Black either.

will give that preston CD another try. didn't slay me, though I'm glad to have heard it & there is definitely something very 'first' and free of any influence about it. I agree with you it's closer in spirit to 1970-1973 era Sun Ra Moog attacks than meticulously layered things like Dockstader, and the liner notes are top notch and capture an era that is never coming back

late great - I've never heard Black Mass, what's so unusual about it...? Is that the one with him at the pipe organ?

It's the one with the terrible acting. From memory, "Astro Black" is not very good, "Antique Blacks" is tho!

loving Night of the Purple Moon at the moment. what other stuff in his catalog is like this - small combo w/Ra on electronic/electric keys?

Disco 3000 I guess

holiday for soul dance iirc

parts of cosmic tones for mental therapy

"night of the purple moon" is kinda unparalleled though in the swingin lounge music category of sun ra albums

listening to youtubes of Antique Blacks - this is pretty wild! definitely veering into Miles Davis electric period territory

if you like antique blacks you should also check out the nidhamu & dark myth equation visitation reissue on art yard, both r dope

there's no such thing as too much ra imo

loving Night of the Purple Moon at the moment. what other stuff in his catalog is like this - small combo w/Ra on electronic/electric keys?

The first half of My Brother the Wind volume II is exactly like that. And Some Blues (But Not the Kind that's Blue) is small-combo-ish, but Ra's playing acoustic piano.

I can EXCLUSIVELY report that our own scott seward is listening to Sun Ra for the first time ever today! Earlier The Magic City, now We Travel the Space Ways.

Dude has quite the impressive Ra array in his store; he's never cracked one open before?

haha! actually i bought that album that came out in like 1988? the normal one. well, kinda normal big band stuff. and i think i heard one side of astro black. i think i actually might even own astro black. and i used to have that 2-disc singles comp of old stuff. a lot of that stuff wasn't actually sun ra though. stuff they put out on their label.

listening to Monorails and Satellites now. solo piano. don't know how i feel about it yet...

i'm definitely keeping The Magic City though. that's a record i know i will want to hear again.

Just before Demonoid went down there was somebody on there reworking the Detroit Jazz Cafe discs because apparently they had been mistransferred and gave a double image or something. I think he would have gradually worked his way through a lot of that material but the medium went down and I now don't know if he was continuing.

I love the band from around that era, seems to be amongst the more psychedelic stuff. Especially when he's electric and funky. IO think he covers some other styles in that set cos there's so much of it.

I just came across the repeat of the These advert for the box set further up the thread. If that set was selling for £45 I'm kicking myself for missing it.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511e00fsqJL._SS500_.jpg

This comp looks like a bit of a bargain, £8.99 on Amazon:

- Jazz by Sun Ra
- Jazz in Silhouette
- The Futuristic Sounds of Sun Ra
- another one I can't identify

Any thoughts? I'm relatively new to Sun Ra but have been enjoying the Singles comp loads. This set seems to concentrate on his early early output.

that one is "super-sonic jazz"

it is some of his more "pedestrian" stuff by which i mean there are no freakouts, special effects, weird instruments, overdubs, etc. it is mostly late 50s jazz played w/ a slightly skewed perspective, kind of like if you got four or five thelonious monks in a room together and let them jam in a room.

that said ... BUY IT

BTW i've never heard "jazz by sun ra"

instead of pedestrian i might as well have said "accessible", there is no more than a touch of avant-garde on this stuff

but i LOVE the three albums i've heard, especially super-sonic jazz, and i listen to them a lot

in fact, "futuristic sounds" was the first sun ra i ever bought, and i definitely didn't "get it" ... i was like huh? this isn't avant-garde freakout space jazz at all?!?!

I just looked at the John Szwed Space Is The place a couple of days ago for the first time in ages. I was looking for what he says on the late 70s/early 80s era and he barely touches on it. Seems to go over the whole era in a few pages.
Subsequently I'm wondering if there is anything that does go into things a bit more deeply. A critical discography or something, even if not a more in depth bio.
What other books are there on Ra?

i don't trust old records on cd that have been "enhanced".

oh and by the way, Atlantis! wow, what a record!

atlantis is pretty decent but the artwork is next-level! is that mighty cthulhu?!?

http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/s346712.jpg

that said ... BUY IT

― the late great

thanks - will get on board. probably a fairly safe introduction to Sun Ra... which the Singles collection is not. it's all over the place (in a good way!!).

it's not really going to help you understand why people think sun ra is special but it's a great set of transitional bop/cool into post-bop/modal jazz and very accessible AND it's an awesome price, i paid at least 10 bucks for each of those

!

http://fromnowherehere.blogspot.com/2013/03/esp-sun-ra-radio-tribute-14-hrs-in-6.html

Well now. Guess I know what I'll be doing this weekend.

Thanks for posting that!

I started listening to this today and it's been excellent so far. Thanks!

he's the subject of toady's jazz profiles on wkcr. heard the Sound of Joy album which was great. i didn't realize he started playing electric piano in 1956.

Who knows which album has the weird jaunty acoustic version of "Outer Spaceways Incorporated" on it?

which jaunty acoustic version?

idk. but if you haven't heard the paris tapes 1971, you should check it out. the untitled synthesizer solo that closes it is so amazing. it really does sound like it is following an extraterrestrial musical logic that we are only on the cusp of comprehending. in general, his keyboard playing on that is top notch... how it kind of intervenes in the midst of the performance and does its own thing, that is less recognizable as "jazz" or "music" than what the other players are doing.

It's a version of the "Outer spaceways" from "space is the place" but with only acoustic guitar and maybe some keyboards, clavi/moog type things that sound like guitars, and sombre sounding vocals.

I cant remember which album, but it's a studio one, and the rest of it isn't related to "space is the place".

I meant 'wonky', not 'jaunty'.

There is a very mellow and stripped down version on Solar Myth Approach disc 2 with the only instrumentation some distant bassoon-ish sounds and Ra's funky rocksichord electric piano.

That's the one thanks. allmusic says it's only 1:21, doesn't sound right/fair. Any recommendations for more similar melancholy/sombre ra tracks?

Sleeping Beauty from the album of the same name is a 12:00 minute long space lullaby! And some of his very best stuff, IMO. It is from the late 70s. It features the whole Arkestra and the whole album is very lush, down tempo and sleepy sounding. Very aptly named and with very good/clean high fidelity sound quality. Still pretty "out" at times but in a nice calm way that doesn't disturb the overall mood. Sunny plays Fender Rhodes on this album and the singers do a lot of humming and whisper-singing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpYa_HW_GxI

That's just what I needed, thanks for sharing.

Anymore?

yeah that's a great album
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNTfXfJhhs

Sleeping Beauty is awesome, thanks. I'm also loving the On Jupiter album.

Agreed, On Jupiter is tons of fun! Ditto Strange Celestial Roads and Languidity from the same era and which have the same funky/groovy aesthetic.

yeah this was a great period for Ra, maybe my favorite

Just got Continuation, which I'd put up there with Strange Strings or Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy -- utterly unclassifiable, and absurdly ahead of its time.

There's a period I'd still like to know the extents of from late 70s tol early 80s when they're doing liquid electric space jazz stuff. My introduction to the band was through Strange Celestial Road which my brother got as a review copy when he was at Birmingham University. Think that was the copy I wound up with though it may have been a different one prompted by my liking his copy.
Period includes Lanquididty, Sleeping Beauty, possibly Disco 3000 and a few others.
I love that stuff to bits.
Is Cosmos as good?

& to repeat a question I asked a while back, is there a critical discography of his work anywhere. Book form or website. Would love to know what was what at a glance.
I need to hear more by him & probably always will. He can be a tad addictive.

most authoritative written work about Ra is surely the Szwed book?

which includes a discography, although I don't think he has details on every single release (dunno if such a thing is even really possible, is there actually someone out there that's heard everything?)

cosmos is the best of that period imo

There was a nice pictorial spread of Sun Ra album covers in an issue of wax poetics years ago, I think. But not complete and not much critical review iirc.

I think when I first asked the question re critical discography I'd just looked up the era I'd really enjoyed and seen that he'd covered it all in about a page or two. Certainly far less in depth than I was looking for.
Subsequently wondered what else there had been written about the music the band had performed.

Search: The Antique Blacks
― Xochipilli, Friday, May 11, 2007 5:22 PM (6 years ago)

YES

definitely, been giving that and Sleeping Beauty a lot of play lately.

what else has that weird funky fusion thing you get on e.g. Antique Blacks or Lanquidity?

the beginning of atlantis

strange celestial roads, night of the purple moon

those are more in the vein of antique blacks, less so lanquidity. but ra has a soul jazz sort of vibe going in all three

On Jupiter

Xp Sleeping Beauty is incredible. I love how beloved Sun Ra is on this board.

Picked up The Paris Tapes on your recommendation, Treeship. That synth solo at the end is brilliant!

and just listened to Black Myth...is Eloe Omoe using some kind of a Varitone or something? Sounds like he's got some kind of octave-doubler dealie happening.

"Disco 3000" is pretty great

I enjoy it a lot, altho as must have been pointed out here before, there is nothing remotely disco about ti

if you like disco 3000 you should check out media dream - it's from the same italian tour

playing synth in a Sun Ra cover show later this month, stoked!

xp glad you like the paris tapes tarfumes! i still play that one in my car sometimes. a really memorable disc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfikmy7koTs&list=PL1R8_DCS7cN9zRPIWaGoVV21gTJxqfvPY&feature=player_detailpage#t=370

Sun Ra Arkestra: Angels And Demons At Play - San Francisco, 8/3/13

marshall lights into the wind synth @ 6:00

I can't believe I missed this show. I'm not likely to see them, ever.

I am apprehensive about trying to d/l all this

but there is a bunch of shit in there that I want and cannot otherwise get

fuuUUUUUCK.

I'm kind of surprised no one tried to do a "complete Saturn recordings" box, but hey, too late now.

also Steveolend to thread:

re: is there a critical discography of his work anywhere. Book form or website. Would love to know what was what at a glance.
apparently there's this. I haven't read it.

http://artistcamp.rebeat.com/store/sun-ra/afternoon-tunes/4053166846872/cover.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zI1Ub0G.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mmPJNBl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IY8Q4Ik.jpg

Uh-oh...lapsed-copyright releases?

re-reading bits of Space is the Place, I wonder has anyone here ever come across any of the Saturn Records 45rpm 7"s? How insanely rare/expensive are these?

Checking on popsike, looks like anywhere between $30 and $3000.

hadn't seen this before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SbvOPo4tHM

http://www.thewire.co.uk/news/30541/sun-ra-perfume-by-norton-records