Keith Moon vs. John Bonham POLL

bonzo

Bonham easy. Keith Moon was more interesting when he wasn't playing drums.

I really can't call it, personally, although I'm gonna try and pick one and vote at some point. As a drummer Moon's influenced me more, and purely in playing terms I'd give the edge to him. But Bonham (and I guess Page and Zep's various producers and engineers) created one of the greatest and most perfect drum sounds in recording history, in addition to being a beast of a player in his own right, so it's kinda hard to deny that.

Anyone who would vote for KM should go back and listen hard to Good Times, Bad Times. Flail all he'd like, KM never approached that class of playing.

You could strip Zep of Plant and JPJ and it still would be amazing listening. Hell, maybe even better.

Only one was the inspiration for Animal on The Muppets.

gotta be real and admit i aint know much about led zep so feel free to school me with some xxx hardcore bonham drummeration but this is my shit 4 all time

awesome drummin

somebody make a utube cast 4 bonham plz?

bonham. i've never got the love for KM, what did he do, hit cymbals a lot?

Anyone who would vote for KM should go back and listen hard to Good Times, Bad Times. Flail all he'd like, KM never approached that class of playing.

Moon's drumming is never as tight as Bonham's on GTBT, but Bonham couldn't match what Moon does on "Happy Jack". So because he went slightly beyond what a drummer is basically expected to do, I'm voting for Keith.

people who downplay one or the other are crazy haters...basically your argument should be "this dude's my #1, that dude is only top 10, maybe top 5"

bonham >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moon

Bonham as an unfair advantage here in that all of his work was properly recorded, while a lot of Moon's best playing (when he was younger, and less in the throes of deep alcoholism) was produced in the 60s style that leads people to say things like "what did he do, hit cymbals a lot?"

Go back and listen to the drumming on I Can See For Miles and Miles. Tell me that's all cymbals.

Either way, both are titans in the drumming world. And neither lived long enough to be as good as Dale Crover is today.

i was never a big who fan but moon just seems like too many fills & playing over the barline, not enough groove

ethan, i thought you would have gone for bonham for the classic breaks at least

sure Moon is the patron saint of too many fills & playing over the barline, but if you fuck with one drummer who does that it's gotta be him. i mean in general i respect groove drummers more, but imo he did the hammy virtuoso style with a kind of personality and panache that hasn't and can never be copied or improved upon.

nahh dogg i respect the rhymin n steelin/lyrical gangbang drums but when the levee breaks is too jamband 4 me

i'm sure that's true, but on some of that led zep live shit bonham does these ridic long fills at whatever place in the phrase and totally sells it too. i know i'm a total bonham stan, but he was one of my guys in high school (duh, when else would you obsess over these guys) and afaic he's got it all.

xp

yeah...Bonham's sense of timing is really one of a kind...there are Zep songs that I've heard on the radio twice a week my entire life that I still can't air drum to without completely falling out of the pocket when he does those insane little fills or pauses or drags behind the beat.

John Bonham:Hendrix::Keith Moon:Randy Rhoads

haha I was formulating (and then abandoning) some comparison a few minutes ago that was like Moon=Hendrix and Bonham=I dunno, Clapton or something?

moon = t-pain
bonham = akon

peart = nate dogg

moon's influence got me in trouble many many times in my first band but it was worth it. plus he named zep right? moon by an inch anyway.

Moon

Moon gets props for playing way outside the norms of his era, but Bonzo would be a great drummer in any era.

bonzo lays down the tastiest grooves known to man. what a feel this guy had. the way he rides the beat is insane.

wait, are we voting based on drumming skills?

i would say it's about personal preference, whether you think one is more skilled or not, etc.

well i don't know shit about either so i'm voting for moon because bonham seemed like an angry drunk

Bonham had one of the best producers anywhere recording him. Moon was in a band made up of three lead instruments. Moon had "Cobwebs And Strange" Bonham had a drag racer in "Moby Dick"

The winner is all of us.

Then there's the time Keith joined Led Zeppelin on stage in 1977

Moon's drumming is never as tight as Bonham's...

That's the essence of it. KM never really knew where the hell he was at, and not by intention. A rock-n-roll drummer needs to define the beat at every available tick, not play above a groove maintained by musicians whose timing might possibly be better than his. Rock-n-rollers' timings suck. You, the drummer, are to make that fact as non-obvious as possible.

To wit, Bonham's achilles heel is Black Dog. Kinda surprised that nobody's mentioned it, but if you listen really close to the recording on IV, you can hear how truly lousy Page's timing gets when he's off the hook. Kinda obvious to me at least that Bonham tried a bunch of things with that crazy ass riff before realizing that he couldn't get JP's time to latch and so he just gave up and decided to nail down the fundies while listening to JP rather than making JP listen to him. This is what a great drummer does when placed in a bad groove, but it's still an obvious white flag.

bulllllllshit. if Moon didn't know where he was when he sounded like he didn't, half of the Who's performances would've fallen apart mid-song. there was a lot of control and purpose within the chaotic aesthetic of his playing.

Page's timing on "Black Dog" always sets me on edge slightly, though, yeah.

Kinda surprised that nobody's mentioned it, but if you listen really close to the recording on IV, you can hear how truly lousy Page's timing gets when he's off the hook. Kinda obvious to me at least that Bonham tried a bunch of things with that crazy ass riff before realizing that he couldn't get JP's time to latch and so he just gave up and decided to nail down the fundies while listening to JP rather than making JP listen to him.

According to the chapter on "Black Dog" in the 33 1/3 book, it's actually Jones who came up with the riff and arranged everything. Apparently the original arrangement was even more complex - causing Page to struggle and Bonham to dig in his heels and plow through in 4/4. There's a bootleg of the early version that has Bonham trying to play more in time with the riff.

OK, the wikipedia article gets into it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Dog_(song)

I'm not saying that KM was bad, but he sure as hell wasn't a force in keeping Who shows from falling apart. He was a good drummer, but he had no characteristics of greatness. (xp)

Whether or not JPJ or JP came up with the riff, it was clearly beyond JP's rhythmic capabilities.

Such a great question b/c it's hard to imagine two rock drummers more different. Each was perfect for his band.

"he had no characteristics of greatness" is like some weird shit you hear cable pundits say during presidential elections

Seems to me that Bonham was always just a tad behind the beat, whereas Moon was similarly ahead of it.

Other than that, I really don't want to choose, other than to observe that (a) unlike Moon, Bonham's skills never waned as he approached an alcohol-related death, and (b} it wasn't until Tommy that Moon was finally recorded properly.

Love 'em both, obviously.

Moon is my favorite drummer. I love how he plays and have listened to Who records just to focus on him many times over many years.

Many times I listen to Led Zeppelin, and don't really think about the drumming at all.

The Who have nearly always been my favorite band though, so any thought of what is the best way to go about it starts with them.

these guys are so different and both geniuses, voting between them is pointless. the key with keith is that he played drums like a lead instrument; there's nothing wrong with his timekeeping, but timekeeping or groove-making is not what he did. he added colors and textures and emotional angles to the music in a way that other lead instruments (guitar, saxophone, piano, etc) usually do. in a way it makes moon more like a virtuoso jazz drummer than your average rock virtuso (even though his playing itself was totally rock, not jazz). bonham didn't play lead instrument, he established the grooves. MONSTER grooves. he's the heaviest funky drummer or the funkiest heavy drummer ever. like if james brown was paul bunyan.

love 'em both.

Seems to me that Bonham was always just a tad behind the beat, whereas Moon was similarly ahead of it.

^^^ dude doesn't know what "behind" the beat means.

i would sneak the stuttered hat-kick-kick triplet fills from the "Good Times Bad Times" verse into one of my band's songs when we played it live.

x_ _ x _ _ x _ _ X

shit is like walking on air when you pull it off.

keith moon, in my humble opinion, is the greatest rock musician of all-time.

interesting responses to this thread

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/205/465049102_c141816983.jpg

moon:bonham::townsend:page

moon>bonham, by a whisker of personal preference

tipsy mothra OTM there, comparing these two is really pointless since they're so different. they could basically play in the same band at once. that said, polls are polls and I probably lean more towards Bonham, not because I feel a drummer necessarily should be the groove setter, just because he's better

I think that a lot of the criticism about Moon not being a good timekeeper is erroneously based on songs where Entwhistle or (much more usually) Townshend are maintaining the beat. The Who were a band where this rotating of roles between the three musicians was a regular thing. LZ were far more conventional in that respect.

It's a bit like criticising Mitch Mitchell for not holding down the rhythm in the Jimi Hendrix Experience. Because it wasn't really his job either, it was Noel Redding's.

I would say that it's neither bassist nor drummer's "job" to hold down the rhythm - it's a collaborative effort, hence "rhythm section" - a good one is a team in a real sense, maybe separate players in theory but less so in practice

I vote Bonham here but my as observed above a lot of how one responds is probably at least partially related to very different techniques used in recording. Moon is often recorded for snap - Eddie Kramer and/or whatever assistant was helping set up the mics on Bonham's drum is to my mind completely visionary, there's this love of sound. pair that with the how-to-deal-with-the-rest-of-the-band phenomenon (i.e., that Bonham is approaching the job as if it were the drummer's responsibility to knit everything together) and you get these performances that have so much character, so much narrative to them. I do get that from Moon too sometimes but not all the time like with Bonham.

(add ital to "were" in "as if it were" to point out - I don't think JPJ/Bonham is able to function as an ideal rhythm section owing to Page's timing, which causes Bonham to have to try to lead, which contributes to how special and different Zep sound)

John Bonham:Picasso::Keith Moon:Matisse

drum machine:Warhol

JPJ vs. entwhistle

^^^ dude doesn't know what "behind" the beat means.

― ＴＥＥＮＡＧＥ ＤＩＡＬＥＣＴＩＣＳ (libcrypt), Monday, 15 December 2008 05:48 (8 hours ago) Permalink

really? bonham definitely plays on the back side of the beat to my ears, it's part of what makes him sound so heavy

Moon, but I have no expertise that qualifies to make such an opinion.

bonzo's pulse is so lazy. also his right foot is his best body part.

true. he had a good beard too.

I would say that it's neither bassist nor drummer's "job" to hold down the rhythm - it's a collaborative effort, hence "rhythm section" - a good one is a team in a real sense, maybe separate players in theory but less so in practice

It's less of a collaborative effort in rock music, simply because rock musicians' inner timing clocks are usually crap, a situation not ameliorated by the addition of booze, weed, or whatever fuel that's often in play. Any member of a half-decent jazz combo (perhaps including ghost members) can unwind the clock all on his lonesome, allowing the drummer the freedom to skitter wildly over the topmost surface of the music at will. Even when he's keeping time, a jazz drummer will glue the clock to the ceiling so that his depthful instruments may dangle below like a cheap wind chime.

Rock drummers usually don't have that luxury. They've gotta own the beat, 'cause the rest of the band is gonna drive the song offa cliff without someone controlling the wheel. Granted, a bass player syncopating downhill at 120 dB/h is gonna have a hard time hearing a drummer tinkling on the cymbals, but you can't complain about the lousy deal when you know the cards are stacked going in.

I'm not saying that Entwistle wasn't playing above his weight class -- he surely was a great bassist -- nor that KM didn't put his checks down in all the open boxes. The Who wasn't a jazz combo, tho, and there's just nothing that interesting about playing on top of the beat in a standard rock-n-roll band, at least to my ears. (xp)

a jazz drummer will glue the clock to the ceiling so that his depthful instruments may dangle below like a cheap wind chime.

wow

really? bonham definitely plays on the back side of the beat to my ears, it's part of what makes him sound so heavy

When the song needed it, yes. But as a general rule, Bonham unwound the clock. (xp)

what does that mean?

It means that a jazz drummer uses the cymbals (the ceiling) for strict time, while he allows his other tools much more freedom.

I'm not talking about Han Bennink here, of course.

i mean "unwound the clock"

lol at black dog wiki: The dog has nothing to do with the song lyrics, which are about desperate desire for a woman's love and the happiness resulting thereby.

If you unwind the clock, then you define the ticks. There is no "before" or "after" the beat if you are the beat.

making up words won't help you

lol at black dog wiki: The dog has nothing to do with the song lyrics,

wait on the 2

It became our way of life

The Jerk was a delayed backbeat thing

There's hella lot of jazz elitism all of a sudden in this thread.

John Bonham: Mary Richards
Keith Moon: Rhoda Morganstern

Bonham: Latka
Moon: Rev. Jim

Long time lurker, first-time poster. Anyway...

Bonham was absolutely brilliant at doing what drummers are supposed to do. And no one could do it like Bonham.

However, calling Keith Moon a rock drummer is like saying Miles Davis was neato jazzy trumpet player. What Moon did was so far beyond what anyone in that position had ever done before that reducing it to "rock drumming" misses the point, to be charitable. He was the lead instrument in his band, moreso than any drummer in "rock" had (has) ever been -- he really takes his place next to expert orchestrators like Milford Graves, Tony Oxley, Andrew Cyrille and the like. To lump him in with someone as relatively conventional as Bonham strikes me as misguided at best (as well as unfair to Bonham). I've always felt that the reason Moon was underrated (especially when compared to Bonham) was because his innovations were so extreme and not in keeping with standard drumming procedure that most musicians have yet to catch up/on.

It's like Entwistle said: "He didn't play from left to right or right to left, he'd play forward. When you see him playing mad breaks, he's not going around the kit, his arms are moving forward from the snare to the toms. I've never seen anyone play like that before or since."

I'm tired, so this probably isn't that coherent. But saying Moon isn't playing "rock" properly or convincingly is like saying Cecil Taylor is always playing the wrong chords... or that Pierre Henry's tape machine must be broken.

I don't know enough about drumming to say for sure, but I think I agree with Matt Weston here.

My way of defending my vote for Moon is: I often put on the Who just to hear Moon (e.g. "Happy Jack" on Live At Leeds, hell, that whole album). But I rarely put on Zeppelin just to hear Bonham. Of course I love the fuck out of both bands, and I love Bonham's playing, it's just rarely the centerpiece of my listening to the band.

bonham. tho moon on "who are you" is great

I've always felt that the reason Moon was underrated (especially when compared to Bonham) was because his innovations were so extreme and not in keeping with standard drumming procedure that most musicians have yet to catch up/on.

ditto. i think some people focus on the party animal image too much and forget that he was a genius.

xpost - yeah "Who Are You" is awesome...i never totally understood what people mean when they say Moon's drumming deteriorated or was any less great toward the end, although maybe there's some footage I haven't seen that makes it undeniable.

I'm voting Moon because his drumming on Live At Leeds is so damn great. And he had the good sense to never record a drum solo. Also, Bonham may have had the best drum sound, but that was arguably more Page's input than anything.

Both were easily the two best drummers ever. And who sounds like 'em nowadays? Nobody! You'd think that with all the advancements in recording technology you'd be able to reproduce that classic Bonham sound, but apparently not.

You'd think that with all the advancements in recording technology you'd be able to reproduce that classic Bonham sound, but apparently not.

that's because page & the engineers were the lesser part of the equation. bonham would've sounded great no matter how he was recorded, dude knew what he was going for and hit the drums right.

it wasn't until Tommy that Moon was finally recorded properly.

Clarify, please. To my ears, the early Who singles (Can't Explain, Anyway Anyhow Anywhere, I Can See for Miles etc.) capture Moon far more effectively than the often tinny-sounding Tommy. The production got so laborious and precious on Tommy it almost killed the spirit.

Clarify, please. To my ears, the early Who singles (Can't Explain, Anyway Anyhow Anywhere, I Can See for Miles etc.) capture Moon far more effectively than the often tinny-sounding Tommy.

OTM - the "the drummer is the main attraction" aspect of the Who is for me limited to these earlier tracks, esp. "I Can See For Miles" and "Happy Jack."

In re: "jazz elitism," fuggit, I'm for it, I favor "I like this guy because I consider him a better musician" as a yardstick. I don't hear the distinction between Moon & Bonham the way Matt does, though - the jazz drummer Moon reminds me of most is Sunny Murray, whose style (in his own combos, anyway) always struck me as kinda lone-wolf - what I like about Bonham, to use a term I've heard jazz players use a lot, is that it sounds like he's listening - like everything that's going on is occurring in real time.

Just my opinion. To my ears, the drum sound on Tommy had a little more clarity and less distortion than the earlier (and, yeah, SUPERIOR) stuff. I guess "properly" wasn't the best term.

xpost yeah "i can see for miles" has always been my favorite moon song. (and, not coincidentally, my favorite who song.)

but i think this clip is a good illustration of how moon worked within the band. the whole band is arrayed around him -- musically and physically he's really the star presence, the centripetal force.

i think the moon hate upthread is totally crazy -- i dont think 'lone wolf' is a fair way to characterize a drummer who was such a defining part of the songs he was on, its like getting mad at puffy interjections on biggie records -- it assumes theres some 'natural' version of the track out there somewhere -- expect moon was maybe an even stronger part of what made those songs what they are. i voted moon.

that said bonham was the fuckin man and crazy talented

love this so much esp the latin freakout at the end -- and i cant believe and what doesnt know his zeppelin

you know that part of led zeppelin's 'fool in the rain' ...

Both great in their own ways..
Moon with the heart of a naughty kid..
Bonham with the muscle memory of a top golfer..

its like getting mad at puffy interjections on biggie records

lol I'm not sure if you're aware how much I hate puffy interjections on biggie records

it wasn't until Tommy that Moon was finally recorded properly.

I dunno. I agree with Entwistle's comments about Kit Lambert making "the drums sound like biscuit tins." - still, "Overture" and "Amazing Journey" are some of Moon's finest moments.

Bonham fans really need to seek out the bootleg of Bonham's isolated drum takes from In Through The Out Door. Tremendous stuff!

Here they are: http://www.saladrecords.com/bonhamfiles.htm

"cant believe and what doesnt know his zeppelin"

why is everybody buggin out on this

mom only fux with jazz muzik + dad listened to pre-rock pop ish

anybody wanna make me a zep mix im 400% down

man if somebody else hasn't picked that up when I get home next week I am on it E

its like getting mad at puffy interjections on biggie records

good point except it's totally not

u dont get what im saying -- the idea is that keith moon's drum parts on who tracks on like 'happy jack' are as much a part of the compositions as anything else w/in the song

yeah...but puffy is still a terrible comparison.

As long as we're making jazz references ... when I first heard that famous Charlie Parker sax break in "Night In Tunisia" I got that same "holy shit" feeling I'd been having listening to Moon for years. Chops, yes, but more importantly a brief extraordinary burst of controlled chaos. It's all over The Who's music -- that Anyway clip upthread is just one example. I love Bonham for the groove etc. but rarely get that from him even on his longer solos.

deej, on behalf of drummers everywhere, i am deeply, deeply offended by that comparison. (also, hi, any drum part is "as much a part of the compositions as anything else w/in the song")

not really

i.e. night in tunisia which has been recorded w/ tons of diff drum styles over time yet remains the same song

i would say each version with different drums is a distinct piece of music ie not the same "song". but this is OT. point is that was a shitty comparison. puffy talking over a track is nowhere near similar to moon's or any other drummer's contribution to any piece of music.

i think we're talking about the song vs the recording here, and it's totally subjective...some drum parts become signature things that the song would sound weird without, and most don't.

^^^exactly

(and personally i hate hearing zep songs w/out bonham, and most of his shit is totally signature to me :D)

if a drummer isn't creating a memorable part that becomes integral to the composition, he's failed imo. would a biggie track ever sound weird to you without puffy talking over it? if you say yes i don't believe you, so there.

there are plenty of classic (and great) rock songs that have generic, purely functional drum parts

ah but they serve a function and the song would be a different one if they were different. and they all could've been even better with better drum parts. basically you're saying you melody and harmony are more important to a song's DNA than drums, no?

and that these are equivalent statements?
"i don't like moon's drumming there. ruins the song"
"i don't like puffy's interjections. ruins the song"

granny i feel like i'm betraying my people or something here, but deej has a point.

xp

The only point I see is that a lot of songs have weak drum parts, and that Biggie tracks would sound weird without Puffy's interjections. I only agree with the former.

I guess those are two points, huh

some drum parts become signature things that the song would sound weird without, and most don't.

depends on the genre, doesn't it? or are you only talking about rock, in the first place?

I can't imagine "Big Poppa" without Puffy's parts, but anybody could have delivered them, it's not like his "how you livin' Biggie Smalls?" is SO INCREDIBLY FRESH as to rule out anybody else giving it - you know? So while I see yr point deej I still think it's bogus but I would say that because as president of the Society For Are-You-Still-Bugging-About-That I have to fulfill my obligations in this important election season

vote for me, I still hate Puffy

Darn1e11e/Puffy beef back ON

For me, it's Mitch Mitchell, THEN Bonham, THEN everybody else including Moon.

Oh and now I am remembering this thread from long ago

You know that part of Led Zeppelin's "Fool in the Rain" where they come out of the silly Latin section back into the main piano riff and there's like a steadily rising drum roll and

Wherein mad props were given to Bonham's fills circa In Through the Out Door and somebody posted the raw drum trax and we were in heaven for a brief lovely while

yup, good thread.

(btw that first fill after the samba part in "fool in the rain" is totally overdubbed btw)

do people feel that bonham was consistently brilliant througout his career in zep?

yes, people do.

i wish he had lived to be an 80's - 90's session dude

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

if he'd lived, i'm pretty sure he'd be getting by fine without playing shoddy studio gigs.

sure, he wouldn't have had to play at all, but i'd hope that at some point he would've wanted to do something other than play w/the same three dudes

John Bonham would have sounded excellent playing behind about anyone, as he has that rare combination of power and bounce but I cannot really imagine what The Who would have sounded like without Keith Moon. Take something like "Going Mobile", Moon is going so batshit crazy on the fills on the last part of that song, I just don't see how ANY other drummer could have made it work like that. While the songwriting in The Who was really well done, I cannot see The Who having the success they did without Moon, as they would probably have been a lot more straight ahead sounding and would not have gotten as wild and might not lead to Townsend going as far out on his songwriting.

Led Zep definitely would not have been as epic if say Ansley Dunbar was the drummer, but they would have probably still have been a pretty good blues rock styled band. I can't see them getting as far out as they did.

I'll tell you this, Steve Shelley at one point in Sonic Youth would get that forever drum roll like Keith Moon, especially in the Daydream Nation/Sister/Dirty era. At one point that crazy drum rolls like Moon just quit happening and to me, I really think that is the point I lost interest in SY.

Bill Ward is the dude that I think doesn't get the props he should, especially considering the stature of Black Sabbath. That dude could groove like Bonham and at points would get really wild with the fills, maybe not as much as Moon, but pretty out there like on Wheel of Confusion.

Ian Paice is also a really killer drummer.

Steve Shelley is way underrated.

Ian Paice is also a really killer drummer.

the weird free-groove breaks in 'flight of the rat' are mind-blowing

I voted for Moon because any time I really fucking need to hear some drums I play Happy Jack.

Keith Moon by far

1. Better drummer

and

2. The wildest human being ever in showbiz

And even though he was rather unique in his drumming style, his extramusical life and behaviour are my main reasons for going for Keith Moon. :)

Btw. whatever happened to that movie they were supposed to be making about his life? I was really looking forward to it.

Supposedly Daltrey (who started and is overseeing the Moon bio-pic project) has yet to find a decent script, and has already rejected more than a few.

I'll tell you this, Steve Shelley at one point in Sonic Youth would get that forever drum roll like Keith Moon, especially in the Daydream Nation/Sister/Dirty era. At one point that crazy drum rolls like Moon just quit happening and to me, I really think that is the point I lost interest in SY.

OTMFM. The rapid decline in Sonic Youth's music can be directly traced to the sudden lifelessness of Steve Shelley's playing.

"Bill Ward is the dude that I think doesn't get the props he should, especially considering the stature of Black Sabbath. That dude could groove like Bonham and at points would get really wild with the fills, maybe not as much as Moon, but pretty out there like on Wheel of Confusion.

Ian Paice is also a really killer drummer."

Both points OTM. Paice's finest moment is the album Burn. What a fucking drummer.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

poll results tough but fair

with that kind of turn out it's more or less scientifically proven

yesss, ilx had me worried there

(high turnout!)

xp

by this point I assume that whoever's getting the most vocal praise on a poll thread is going to lose

(now we should do page vs hendrix)

There's really only one proper response (at 5:12):

It's not that John Bonham wasn't technically capable of doing something like that; but brilliant as he was, he was a Rock Drummer, and he reveled in the conventions of drumming. Keith Moon was a lead percussionist, and the vast vocabulary he created is still sitting there, largely untouched, waiting for the truly adventurous to dig in and expand on it.

so Bonham is a better drummer and Moon the better "lead percussionist". I voted Bonham.

Matt, that version of Bargain -- and specifically the Moonburst at 5:12 -- is EXACTLY what I was thinking of when I mentioned the clumsy Bird/Night In Tunisia analogy upthread.

i like zeppelin more than the who usually (though i'll take the 10 or so best who songs over the best zep songs) but moon's drumming is my favorite part of almost every who song ever. the drum rolls in "i can see for miles" alone are mindblowing.

disappointing results imo

(now we should do page vs hendrix)

Page vs Clapton vs Beck would be better.

but there's no point doing that one

I tend to notice Bonham's drumming in a way I never noticed Moon's, though I do love the Who. I agree Bonham comes off sometimes as "behind the beat" but then he also "owns the beat" so the slight "behind-ness" of it is what actually rules in the end (what in god's name Libcrypt was on about earlier in this thread re: "unwinding the clock", though, I don't know). I'm intrigued that people here seem to think Moon was a genius, but then, not everyone's musical brains are wired the same and I'll confess there's only been a few drummers that I have especially noticed at the expense of all the other instruments in a given band. Jaki Leibezeit from Can is one, Loz Colbert from Ride is another (especially on "Vapour Trail"), Richard Thomas from Dif Juz...and most of all, John Bonham. Maybe it's to do with production somewhat, too...bands who have dared let the drums be front and center vs. those who wouldn't. Certainly that is a variable at least, here, however minor.

I love hearing how MAD Keith Moon was, and the crazy look on his face when he played drums in all those Who videos, but Bonham is like the ultimate as a rock drummer, I think.

That I don't get. Love him, hate him or think he's worse than Bonzo, Moon seems extremely difficult not to notice.

Also WTF is a "lead percussionist" in a band that didn't have any other...percussionists? You want the two-drummered version of The Fall, mate. Don't get confused.

And what the hell was Eddie Van Halen all by himself in all those Van Halen videos?

HAHAHAHAHAHHA
I was gonna mention Van Halen for some insane random reason like 20 min. ago!!!

how can u listen to the who and NOT notice keith moon exactly

Must have been listening to "Sunrise"...

Also WTF is a "lead percussionist" in a band that didn't have any other...percussionists? You want the two-drummered version of The Fall, mate. Don't get confused.

Moon's percussion played a lead role, as opposed to the supporting role that percussion/drums normally plays in a group of that format.

It's true. I always catch myself humming along to the drums when the Who come on the radio.

bop bop a chinka clunk

That's weird. I tap out Roger's singing with my feet and hands.

It's true. I always catch myself humming along to the drums when the Who come on the radio.

Well you see, I think that hits the nail on the head really. I'm such a massive fan of Townshend and what he can do with melody and his voice (when he finally takes the mic from Roger) that though Moon did a fantastic job of drumming (I Can See For Miles comes to mind) it's just NOT the main reason why I listen to the Who at ALL.

unexpected poll results, given all the moon love in this thread

There's really only one proper response (at 5:12):
http://www.youtube.com/v/uzeq-tEmQmQ&hl=en

i listened to this and while i can agree that he adds a lot of excitement and character and that the band might not benefit from a drummer who plays less, it's still not something i really want to listen to. it also seems very dated in a way...given how music has gone in the last 30 odd years, bonham's huge groove has aged a lot better.

One of the great things about The Who is the noninterchangeability of the personnel. They played the way they did with each other because they were inventing it as it happened.

If John Entwistle was keeping the time, it is because that is how they evolved together. Perhaps Moon could have played a more traditional drumming role in that band or another, but I'm glad it wasn't necessary, because I like how the three of them played together, as interdependent and entwined as any trio I've heard.

As useful and great as having a Charlie Watts or Bonham or Stewart Copeland, Ringo, in your band might be, I love The Who because they were a great organic forceful mess.

"Aged a lot better" is in the eye of the beholder. Both still sound pretty huge today IMHO.

aw I'd been thinking about starting this poll for like a month now

good thing I searched first

I think Moon here, by a big margin.

agreed, i love bonzo but moon is sui generis

why can't rock bands/producers/engineers make drums sound this good anymore????

seriously!

there are a couple working who can but you also need a bonham or a moon

otm

bonham's drumming on in thru the out door is amazing as ever, keith's on who are you is not. love them both but i think i dig bonham's a lot more these days where i would have chosen moon easily back in the day

I'd like to make this poll thread a PO10 Bonham / Moon highlights if noone minds.

weirdly, there's an article in the New Yorker this week that discusses this very issue.

bonham's possibly the better drummer. keith's infinitely more fun, more joyous a drummer.

Joe Carducci comments on the James Wood New Yorker article:

He writes, “Sitting behind the drums was like the fantasy of driving (the other great prepubescent ambition)…”, and on Moon drumming: “He seems to be reaching for everything at once.” Wood contrasts Moon to John Bonham profitably (to Glenn Gould less so) but then noting their deaths two years apart, ends, “And then English drumming went quiet.”

Your editor ought to have told you that was a subject worth six pages of the New Yorker: as in, What happened? A good ten years where the UK produces drummers like Ringo Starr, Charlie Watts, Mick Avory, Jack Jones, Ginger Baker, Mitch Mitchell, Moon, Bonham, Bill Ward, Robert Wyatt, Greg Palmer, Bill Bruford, Clive Bunker, John Marshall, Phil Collins, John Weathers, BJ Wilson, Cozy Powell, Ian Paice, Mick Fleetwood, Barrie Barlow, Simon King, dozens more at least… until glitter and punk and media itself turned on music in the hot-house Pop machine that is London.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGe19nbMhaY

Joe Carducci comments on the James Wood New Yorker article:

the band was increasingly tamed by the requirements of AOR programmers

"Hey guys, look, our listeners are really demanding more Terry Riley-esque minimalism...honestly, I don't think we can get you on the radio without it."

Bonham's drumming was technically better. Moon just did his thing, and it somewhat worked in spite of lack of actual formal drumming skills. When it comes to the myth about the typical drummer personality, Moon will always be the king though, and he also played in the better band of the two.

Take something like "Going Mobile", Moon is going so batshit crazy on the fills on the last part of that song, I just don't see how ANY other drummer could have made it work like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyOibvBoJKM

Moon sounds like three drummers going full anarchy.

Jeff Beck on hanging out with Keith Moon

Also, how did I not notice that Moon rarely uses a hi hat. Ever.

http://www.modculture.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/moon.jpg

Lucked out and found this book used for just a couple bucks. Looks pretty fun! Written by Moon's personal assistant?

hah amazon

0 of 2 people found the following review helpful
1.0 out of 5 stars Moon Age Nightmare, March 21, 2013
By
NoName (Staten Island, NY United States) - See all my reviews
Verified Purchase(What's this?)
This review is from: Full Moon: The Amazing Rock and Roll Life of the Late Keith Moon (Paperback)
I can't stand books about drunken parties and destroying hotels (how cliche), this book skips Moons great contribution to rock drumming and gets lost in all the Moon antics, skip it unless you want to journey down a drunken path to nowhere.

Why are you reading this book? Do you see the cover?

Ugh, that book is horrendous. Tony Fletcher's bio is indispensable, but even he doesn't really get to the essence of what made Moon great.

Also, how did I not notice that Moon rarely uses a hi hat. Ever.

― Elvis Telecom, Monday, June 9, 2014 10:51 PM (7 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

He used a hi-hat until mid-1966 or so, when he got his first double-bass-drum kit (immediately after watching Sam Woodyard in Duke Ellington's orchestra). From 1966 to 1973 he never used a hi-hat on stage, though he always had a hi-hat on his studio kit.

For the most part, his hi-hat was locked-closed (or half-closed) on studio dates. But sometimes, as on "Won't Get Fooled Again," you can hear him switch up his left foot from bass drum to hi-hat, like at 2:33 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnVjpymrbIY

Starting in 1973, he added a locked-closed hi-hat to his live setup.

Bonham is the drummer I'd 10x rather listen to isolation tracks of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8cSe7RvqSM

and I don't even like that song

awesome post from tarfumes, very illuminating

^^^^ on that.

Thanks! Listening to that isolated WGFA is such a wonderful mindfuck.

"Fool in the Rain" track sounds amazing, and Bonham's sound is unmatched. Glyn Johns points out in his new book that Bonham was meticulous about tuning (and Moon rather less so). But it really reinforces that Bonham and Moon were such utterly different animals as to make comparisons pointless. I'd venture to say that they might as well be playing different instruments.

But if we do compare them as drummers, to paraphrase Andre Previn's famous quote about Stan Kenton and Duke Ellington, John Bonham can lay down a monster groove, and every drummer will nod and say, "Oh, yes, that’s done like this." But Keith Moon skitters over a couple of toms, the band suddenly lifts into the air, and I don't know what it is.

love threads like this one. i'm not a drummer and know so little about this very essential element of so much music i love. good reading, thanks y'all.

also those isolated drum tracks O_O

bonham would never be able to pull off the drum break in “my generation “

fuuuck those isolated bonham tracks rock!

do we have a thread for isolated tracks? we should! there were some really cool isolated malcolm young tracks on the ADCD thread recently

i got Keith's "Two Sides of the Moon" LP last year and really love it. it's messy and silly but you can tell there's a lot of love. it has a pretty star-studded lineup:

Rather than using the album as a chance to showcase his drumming skill, Keith Moon sang lead vocals on all tracks, and played drums only on three of the tracks ("Crazy Like A Fox", "The Kids Are Alright" and "Move Over Ms. L"), although he played percussion on "Don't Worry Baby". The album features contributions from Ringo Starr, Harry Nilsson, Joe Walsh of the Eagles, Jim Keltner, Bobby Keys, Klaus Voorman, John Sebastian, Flo & Eddie (Mark Volman and Howard Kaylan of The Turtles), Spencer Davis, Dick Dale, Suzi Quatro's sister Patti Quatro and future actor Miguel Ferrer. Originally recorded for his own album, but not released on it, John Lennon gave Moon the track "Move Over Ms. L" and later did his own version.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Sides_of_the_Moon#Content

highlights include Beach Boys cover "Be My Baby" with drumming by none other than Miguel Ferrer, a really nice and touching strings-based take on "In My Life" and the 50s-rock-via-70s-excess Ricky Nelson cover "Teenage Idol"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAVLggoEa8o

er... that's "Don't Worry Baby". heh i always get those titles confused...