medical school

where is dyao

ayo

(d)

is there something you'd like to tell us

??????

lol so I basically am in need of life advice. am at a crossroads in my life. currently studying for law school but wondering if med school would be a better choice. always loved science in high school but majored in lit in college instead without taking *any* science courses. would like to know if there's any path/track in med school where I don't have to take on crushing amounts of debt. that's basically my question in a nutshell.

my contract here is coming up for renewal here so I need to decide if I want to 1) stay here and apply to law school or 2) go back to the states and enroll in some program that will catch me up

goin to bed now but looking forward to your thoughtful responses ~

ok, so i also majored in lit in college w/o taking ANY science. hence: did a post-bacc.

here is the thing w/a post-bacc---it tacks on another year of debt, and another TWO years of "pre-med" (the gap year is unavoidable---you gotta take the MCAT after taking the science classes, which means the summer BEFORE you apply, so there it is).

i was fortunate enough to not have undergraduate loans, so i saw the post-bacc program as a med school tryout, of sorts. if i hated it, shat the bed, w/e, then at least my cumulative debt was only one year of state school. if i liked it, great, off we go.

if it's coming down to law school v. med school, there are def a lot of variables to consider

1) time---law school is shorter, requires no pre-reqs, plus NO RESIDENCY. when u r out u r out, and are a lawyer making a lawyer salary
2) $$$---med school is pricier simply because it's a year longer. also, you'll have the added year of post-bacc, and a gap year of sustaining yourself. AND you won't make shit during residency, so you're ability to rid yourself of debt will be postponed at least 3-4 years longer. AND even though docs make a ton of money, lawyers have the potential to make quite a bit more (i know a 2nd year lawyer who just got a bonus that's equivalent to a 2nd year resident's salary).
3) ~lyfe~ medical school produces physicians, full stop. the time/$$$ constraints basically mean that once you're in, you're in. i mean, obv you can ACTUALLY do w/e you want, and maybe you will follow the example of everyone's favorite asian internist and become a tv star, but really: you're gonna be a doctor. lawyers can kinda do whatever they want, and it seems like "non-practicing" is as endemic to the legal profession as it is to catholicism and judaism. so if it's flexibility/freedom yr after, law school is the better choice.

something else to consider: law SCHOOL seems pretty clearly more "fun"/stimulating than med SCHOOL. i flirted briefly with looking into a MD/JD (ie - heard a good med mal lecture, bought an LSAT book on sale, didn't open it, story of my life, etc), but was talked out of it by my sister (a lawyer). basically, i was like "but law school is intellectually stimulating and you argue all the time! med school is just FACTS" and she was like "yes you are correct, but the PRACTICE of law is/can be stultifying while the PRACTICE of medicine is life-long learning/problem-solving etc"

not actually true, imo ("boring" is what you make of it), but worth thinking about it. do you want another round of stimulating academic life, or do you want what results from it? i'm over simplifying (and sorta making a stereotypical lawyer v. doctor joek), but it might be helpful to frame things that way. law=cheap, quick, "disposable" (u can always do something else) med=pricey, loooooong, u can never leave

i am of course ignoring here all the "noble" reasons ppl choose either law or med, because we already know all of them

god so many typos, med school u have ruined me

im not the best qualified to talk abt this aspect but there are a # of ways to defray the cost of actually attending - although i think its good to be realistic about how much money you'll be making/have for the next ten years - but the biggest cost may be the next year+ of applying. in addition to undergrad courses you'll have to take the mcats and the application process itself costs a bunch of money.

my undergrad was math/econ. once i had decided that i was interested in med school i went back and did a year and a half of std chem/bio courses. i was able to do those p/t while i was working f/t. i took these at my alma mater & the med school admissions ppl helped w/what courses i shld take which was really useful.

like gbx i didnt have any loans and i cld afford the courses on my salary - basically meant that the money i wouldve been saving i spent on school instead. i also spent a lot of time working on volunteer and research xp and studying for the mcats. i was lucky that i had a job that was both remunerative and flexible. unless you're really sure idk how good an idea going to school f/t wld be?

this will be mb a little disjointed but: the med school application process is really draining ime and takes a huge amount of commitment. its not really comparable to grad school or law school. i think its a lot more impt to have settled in your own mind ~why~ you're doing this. certainly that was the one thing that really came through in my interviews - that med schools aren't partic interested in some1 who is ambivalent abt becoming a doctor.

lol @ this monster post. i guess what i'm trying to say is: over and above financial considerations i think its really impt to have considered your goals w/all of this.

there are plenty of reasons to be wary about law school too (law school thread is worth reading)

'when u r out u r out, and are a lawyer making a lawyer salary' = if you go to the right school and have good grades and the economy is good

@lamp: cosign

@iatee: oh of course, i def glossed that. which is another "practical" consideration: you ~will~ have a job when you are done with yr medical training. and it is highly unlikely that we are going to reach any time soon the point where we've got a surplus of american MDs.

but yeah: really consider ~why~ you might want to be a doctor. it's the classic/boring med school application question, but you know it's there for a reason. there are plenty of people out there DYING to get into doctor school, so if you're ambivalent they'll neg you ASAP. also: the application process IS really draining and acts as sort of a final "weeder class." a handful of the ppl i did my post-bacc program with were so daunted/put-off by the whole thing that they bailed and took easier/less stressful routes into healthcare.

haha i will say: its unfortunate but the best way to ~figure it out~ is to do it. not just taking courses but volunteering and talking to doctors does a) give u a better sense of the process and b) clarify what your options are and mb what u want out of the profession

also i had dinner this wknd w/some1 doing her obstetrics residency ~ as much as gbx is right that you're probably more limited in your options with an md there are still a huge range of really ~rewarding~ options once you're in med school. its p exciting imo

i agree!

Daaaaang I look away from this thread for a lecture on neuroleptics and then it blows up.

I would add on the debt question, that there are (at least) three things you can do to limit/eliminate your debt profile:

1) Get into an in-state public medical school. (I was not able to do this! Hi 250k of loans!)

2) Apply for a military scholarship, which pays your tuition plus a stipend, but requires you serve the military for some extended period of time following your residency. You can also apply to USUHS, although weirdly I think the service commitment at USUHS is longer than it is than taking a military scholarship. I am not sure what the application-to-award ratio is with these, but I know many people here who are doing this.

3) Do the National Health Service Corps, which is like the military scholarships except your service commitment is in primary care in an underserved region of the country. If you KNOW you want to do this, do it. If you are not sure, you can sign up later if need be, or be like the rest of us and end up going to a residency program in some specialty in a big city with a million other specialty doctors, and then feel like part of the problem.

Or you can be like me, and just be completely unable to conceive of the size of your debt as a real amount of money, and assume that since it will all be electronically paid from a paycheck direct deposited into your account, you will basically just be moving numbers on a computer at it for 20 or 30 years until it goes away. (I realize this is poor fiscal strategy, but what can you do?)

The percentage of students who matriculate at a medical school but do not go on to become a doctor (for at least some period of time) is in the low single digits.

And yes I will echo gbx and say that the application year is just awful. You work way too hard in July/August knocking out secondaries, spend a ton of money sending those secondaries in, go through a fall that is usually long stretches of silence punctuated by interviews (which are fun, although also very expensive), followed by more silence, followed by decisions that frequently seem deflating and unfair. Honestly it was more stressful than the 1st year of medical school for me, and I was lucky enough to get in in January 2008 to start in August. I know people who were in waitlist hell until mid-July. I would not wish that on anyone. (The second year of medical school is much more difficult than your app year or 1st year. It is best you hear that now, and hear that often.)

Having said that, even with the debt and the stress and the workload and everything, going to med school is the best decision I ever made. But it is def not for everybody.

4) work for the Indian Health Service (which is what i'm planning on doing). the loan repayment isn't nearly as generous as the other options, but the commitment is shorter, and there are openings for specialists, not just primary care.

basically i think it works out to something like ~$20k/year IN ADDITION to your salary, which (at least according to the website) looks commensurate with nat'l averages. so, yr making say 150k/yr as a GP in Juneau AND getting 20k in loan payments on top. if you put yourself on an aggressive loan repayment scheme of yr own design, and hitch it to the IHS LRP, then paying it all off within 5-10 years seems v doable.

addendum: just did some hasty figuring and it looks like a 3-year IHS contract w/full loan benefits, coupled with full physician salary and a "normal" (2k/mo) loan payment schedule, and my in-state debt (ball-parking 160k) = PAID in four years

Daaaaaaang, that is not a bad gig at all.

i know, right? kinda amazed, tbh. plus while the rez can be a hard place or w/e, the prospect of doing doctoring in ALASKA or N. NEW MEXICO sounds prettttttttttttty nice for someone with my extracurricular interests.

haha i thought u meant new new mexico for a minute

i did, but it's still in beta

β mexico

btw in my notes tonight i wrote the ~perfect~ β symbol - i just stared at it for a minute, v proud of myself

haha i used to do that exact thing when i was learning to ß

oops that's not the right one

harßl

thanks dudes! you've all been a *big help*

something else to consider: law SCHOOL seems pretty clearly more "fun"/stimulating than med SCHOOL. i flirted briefly with looking into a MD/JD (ie - heard a good med mal lecture, bought an LSAT book on sale, didn't open it, story of my life, etc), but was talked out of it by my sister (a lawyer). basically, i was like "but law school is intellectually stimulating and you argue all the time! med school is just FACTS" and she was like "yes you are correct, but the PRACTICE of law is/can be stultifying while the PRACTICE of medicine is life-long learning/problem-solving etc"

not actually true, imo ("boring" is what you make of it), but worth thinking about it. do you want another round of stimulating academic life, or do you want what results from it? i'm over simplifying (and sorta making a stereotypical lawyer v. doctor joek), but it might be helpful to frame things that way. law=cheap, quick, "disposable" (u can always do something else) med=pricey, loooooong, u can never leave

yeah this gets close at some of the reasons I'm thinking about med school - I am sort of in love with wikipedia, love learning random shit/accumulating stuff, learning about biological mechanisms and w/e. I've read the law school thread too so I hope my glasses aren't too rose-tinted anymore (will go back and read this thread in its entirety too) and lol it seems that none of these career paths will ever match what I really want ~but that's life~ do realize that I could end up doing tax law or something equally dreadful for the rest of my life if I go down the lawyer path too so whatevs. I guess the biggest difference is that if I go to med school I could actually spend my life helpin other people out instead of tryna bill them for more hours (though I guess I would be just tryna bill insurance companies for more procedures lol)

i also spent a lot of time working on volunteer and research xp and studying for the mcats.

yeah I guess I'll look into doin soem volunteer work and seeing if it's really right. gonna be spinning my wheels for another year no matter what so I guess it's best to explore my options. lol reminds me that maybe my best internship experience was working as a lab tech during 1 summer, maybe I should just aim to be a lab tech instead (and never hope to be comfortably well off)

u have a pretty narrow definition of lawyers! also lolling @ lawyer vs. dr choice

i hate how you have to pick a career and your life is not 400 years long, because i would be a doctor too

yeah it shows that I am lazy in life and don't want to strike out on my own :( (and also cannot excape my stereotype)

you're obviously not lazy
but i help ppl, i think.

i feel like most jobs help other people in some way

lol u shld try working in corp pr :/

i mean i guess multinational corporations are "people" sorta

i said most

how about "there are many jobs where your job is to help people"

guys maybe I should just go to filmyoutube school

maybe wait a while and find something u truly like

yeah I should go ~find myself~ or something. brb gonna go live in a yurt cyaaaaa

ok that was pretty cool did you know yaks can be milked

i'm kinda serious, i just want you to be happy

lol it seems that none of these career paths will ever match what I really want ~but that's life~

ha its ~funny~ part of the reason i started working towards med school was bcuz it seemed like an 'easy' or at least certain way of having a career that was both engaging and meaningful but - and this is def p corny - i think this kind of fulfillment comes from how u engage w/your work more than anything. like the ppl that i knew who were docs growing up legit loved their work & so i had that expectation of medicine but there are plenty of docs that dont - who find it limiting or routine or uninspiring.

like idk what you want out of work - this is ime a p difficult & personal & impt qn to answer in a lot of ways - but thats been my ime so far

altho srsly working in pr suuuuuuuuuuuucked

i think this kind of fulfillment comes from how u engage w/your work more than anything.

this is otm

aw thanks harbl. yeah I guess what I really want from a job is just something that is intellectually stimulating and will keep my mind busy. like my job right now is alright, it pays pretty well and not too demanding and I like teachin g but I feel like I'm on autopilot and withering on the vine while I"m doing this. Iono maybe I should go learn computer science or a hard science or something.

i think i understand in that i really like every subject, including science, was confused and could have done anything so law school was like a natural choice. i also didn't take biology in undergrad. but i can tell you i did not have fun in school. i engage with my work independently (learning information for fun, how to lawyer, so-called "boring" stuff) and in practice a lot more & happier than i did in school. so it's kinda hard to make decisions based on people's accounts of their school experience. imo you should go back and take some science. i miss it and am thinking about MPH, tbh.

but not until i'm 30

lol yeah I guess this is just part of being a 20s something in the 21st century. maybe I can have a lucrative career by transmuting my experiences into the genre of film known as mumblecore