THOSE FUCKING ENGLAND FLAGS!

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Ambiguous!

That is witty, I think, of you, I mean.

the junefox, Tuesday, 15 June 2004 08:09 (nineteen years ago) link

feel like a total prude saying this, but sports fans in Britain really do take soccer beyond a game. They'll turn anything into an excuse to get pissed and spout vitriol at other countries.

Excuse me, sports fans in ENGLAND

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes, the scots are notoriously reserved about these things.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:01 (nineteen years ago) link

I think you'll find that it's a generally accepted fact that Scots fans do not generally indulge in similar antics to English fans, nor do they indulge in racist and/or xenophobic chants a la England v. Turkey or England v Anyone Not English. Neither do Irish fans or Welsh fans, as far as I know.

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:03 (nineteen years ago) link

... Scots are too busy figthing each other!

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:05 (nineteen years ago) link

It is a little known fact that a group of Scotish fans returned to Wembley in '77 to repair the crossbar. They left a note saying "sorry we broke your crossbar"

Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:05 (nineteen years ago) link

English footy fans all have the evil gene, like Walt Disney. it's a genetic thing that affects only the English. and Walt Disney.

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:06 (nineteen years ago) link

haha yes, the Glasgow rivalry is notorious for its civility, tact, and non-violence!

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:07 (nineteen years ago) link

Most of the potential and actual nutcases in Scotland are Rangers or Celtic fans and therefore have no interest in following the Scottish national side, considering themselves either too a) British or b) Irish to indulge in such an activity.

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:09 (nineteen years ago) link

and those who do support the national side found it hard to drum up a witty insult whilst trailing 2-1 against the faroe islands

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:16 (nineteen years ago) link

I'd imagine plenty of choice insults were being directed ............ at the clowns in the Scotland strips.

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:17 (nineteen years ago) link

Side tracking the thread slightly, but I've never worked out why loyalist, unionist Rangers fans think it's more loyal and erm...uniony(?!) to support England than Scotland. Surely a true loyalist would support all British teams in any tournament and would favour their home nation (i.e. Scotland) above the others.

Onimo (GerryNemo), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:17 (nineteen years ago) link

They're exactly like Unionists in Ulster, they consider themselves more British than the English - which, in a lot of ways, they are. I'm guessing they mainly support England because it annoys the hell out of everyone else in Scotland, ha ha.

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:22 (nineteen years ago) link

From what I can tell, Scots direct all their wrath at the BBC commentary team, via anyone English who happens to be around because obviously we all have a special hotline to the DG to pass on their complaints. Yawn.

Madchen (Madchen), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:16 (nineteen years ago) link

"You're cold and you know you are" could be sung to Faroe Islands fans?

Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:18 (nineteen years ago) link

Or "you dirty Northern bastards".

Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:20 (nineteen years ago) link

Or you Treeless Bastards

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:21 (nineteen years ago) link

Steve and I disagreemd via text message during the England - France game: about half way through the second half he thought the England fans were singing "Are you Scotland in disguise?", while I thought they were singing "Are you Tottenham in disguise?".

The latter would have been funnier, I think, but both of them were pre-fall pride, obv.

Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:25 (nineteen years ago) link

he thought the England fans were singing "Are you Scotland in disguise?"

Funny thing is, I thought the exact same thing: sitting in with those two narrow banks of four, hoofing the ball aimlessly upfield, desperately protecting a narrow lead, backs to the wall, etc. I was looking for wee Craig Broon in the England dug-out.

Onimo (GerryNemo), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:28 (nineteen years ago) link

My (Scottish) boss was trotting out the old 'it's the English commentators that make me anti-England, not the supporters' line yesterday. His example was a post-defeat remark about getting revenge in the final. To him, that was typical English arrogance. To me it's just ebullience. It's not so ridiculous an idea that it's a pipe dream, but obviously he wasn't saying it assuming that we'd reach the final either. You know, England is a... big team, and we should consider our fortunes against similarly major footballing nations.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:32 (nineteen years ago) link

Had this exact debate yesterday.

EVERYBODY here wheels out the anti-commentator thing. I sort of agree, sometimes, at least in 2002 I was happy when England beat Argentina and then quite anxious that they lose to Brazil given that the hype had increased so dramatically after the Danish match.

Nonetheless I'm not sure it's right to do this, and also as ever, why would I want Brazil to win.

Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:34 (nineteen years ago) link

Well if England is a big team then it's "fortunes" don't compare too favourably against other "similar major footballing nations"

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:36 (nineteen years ago) link

The other thing, of course, is the perceived assumption that all viewers are English. I think this is mainly derived from the tendency of broadcasters to treat English victory as a good news item, defeat with talk of hangovers. There's some justice to this claim, but I think the real reason for is not so much Anglocentrism as a policy decision to treat all the home nations as worthy of support. Yes, that runs contrary to the attitudes of many people (esp. outside England), but I think the national media sees it as its job to uphold a unionist, British approach that flows from the political status quo. They do the same when it's Scotland playing. Maybe not as much, I grant you. I don't really buy that 'when a Scot loses they're Scottish but when they win they're British' cliche.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:40 (nineteen years ago) link

Commentator thing is irritating, it has to be said. It's a standing order now in the Commentator's Guide To Watching England that 1966 *has* to be mentioned (I bet not many had the 83rd minute in the pub sweeps, remarkably restrained, though admittedly they did sneak in Johnny Wilkinson first).
I understand English commentators being anglocentric during England games, but it's ALL THE TIME. Last night Henke was on fire, scored two fantastic goals and probably sealed himself a nice job in La Liga and the commentator was going on about "Could he score goals it in the Premiership?"

Onimo (GerryNemo), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:41 (nineteen years ago) link

I doubt UKTV is alone in supporting the home side!

ENRQ (Enrique), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:42 (nineteen years ago) link

I don't really buy that 'when a Scot loses they're Scottish but when they win they're British' cliche.

This is such utter nonsense yes, as if they're even halfway as bothered or as interested in archaic national divides as the twats who allege this.

Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:43 (nineteen years ago) link

Well if England is a big team then it's "fortunes" don't compare too favourably against other "similar major footballing nations"

No, not as well. We're not that far off the pace, though. But I don't really see why this is so relevant. The point is that at one time we have been right up there at the top, and for a nation of our size and footballing interest, we should expect to be fighting for that place again. Scotland is much smaller and it would be unrealistic to place the same expectations. Denmark (about the same population) won Euro 1992, but no one expected them to constantly be repeating that achievement.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:43 (nineteen years ago) link

Ronan, you don't live in the UK, so I don't really see how you can commentate with any authority on the British media, past or present. Not to be rude or anything.

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:49 (nineteen years ago) link

Err... ITV and BBC are available in Ireland, Dadaismus.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Understand that Nick, I just find the flights of self-delusion that the English media/ pundits/ fans engage in on these occasions are a bit ludicrous and self-defeating. Talk about setting yourself up for a fall! Apparently in Germany, it's the opposite, they always think they're crap.

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:52 (nineteen years ago) link

well they usually are but they still do well somehow

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:53 (nineteen years ago) link

When I lived in Manchester, I was always hearing complaints about how London-centric telly is. A good example the other day, when I was off work waiting for the boiler man, was a Channel 4 schools TV programme about consumerism and ethics. The presenter started off by saying "I'm on Oxford Street, as if you lot didn't recognise it har har" and I wondered just how many 14/15/16 year olds (my guess at the target age) actually did recognise it. I wouldn't have done and I only lived 25 minutes from London - what about the rest of the country's teenagers?

The flip side of it is that in the South East, you watch the news at 6.00pm and then see almost exactly the same stories on the local news at 6.30pm. But it's not much consolation, eh?

This is nothing to do with sport, sorry.

Madchen (Madchen), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:53 (nineteen years ago) link

Does Ronan watch British TV, listen to British radio, read British newspaper to the exclusion of everything else then? So much for the Republic!

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:53 (nineteen years ago) link

i wonder how Basque and Catalonians feel about commentators during Spain games

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:54 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes, for naturally Irish TV shows every English match, and this is how I watch them. I do not have ITV or BBC or Sky Sports, nor do I know what they are. Furthermore the only channels I have that show England games are not in fact, all British. Indeed, no Irish people make the exact same complaints about the British commentators, because of all of the above. I have not in fact, heard them before, after, and during any major sporting event in which England or English athletes are involved.

Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:54 (nineteen years ago) link

Indeed stevem, but as I said before, England and just like a less successful version of Germany: they play stodgy football, with a minimum of creativity and a maximum of hard work and endeavour and they are forever being outplayed and still grinding out results!

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:56 (nineteen years ago) link

It's not self-delusion. We hope to win every match. We think there's a realistic prospect that we might (with good reason - we're a good enough side that when we do lose, it's often close). We're disappointed when we don't. I really don't think Scots understand this at all. Also, they ignore the fact that LOADS of English get incredibly pessimistic about every match. Not TV pundits, I grant you, but many smug 'the Continentals are so much more sophisticated than us' print journalists, as well as ordinary Joes.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:56 (nineteen years ago) link

I get the impression (though it's just an impression) that if you switch Scottish with Irish in that assertion, and add "when they think they can get away with it", it's closer to the truth.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:57 (nineteen years ago) link

The English league has massive support and huge money, it's only natural people have some expectations. England have won a World Cup in the past as N says and there's no delusion in headlines like "We Can Win It" etc.

Denmark won Euro 1992 and who on earth thought they'd do that, England have a chance in every tournament they enter and are certainly not on the tier of confidence that says "we'll go and win a few games and be happy", nor should they be.

They are under-achievers mostly. Like Spain. Who you could also accuse of being ridiculous if they got their hopes up before big tournaments, even moreso than England. But similarly I would expect and be amazed if the Spanish media didn't get excited and consider their side to have a very good chance of winning things.

Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Only a very few England followers think we'll win this: most reckon we'll make it to the quarters or the semis, which is probably realistic. People who want to cry "English arrogance" and gnash their teeth will naturally pick up on what the very few have to say because it suits them. None of the people involved in this are doing anything wrong.

When Celtic have been having their good runs in European competitions over the past few years, has 1967 been mentioned much?

Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:03 (nineteen years ago) link

Not really no Tim. When you do well, you have no reason to dredge up the past. And, believe me, that is not meant as a snide comment about England so much as a truthful one about Celtic!

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:06 (nineteen years ago) link

well quite, we have made all but 2 of the last 20 years of major championships (shit, is that right? anyway, it's possibly 3), and are still 13th in the world rankings (how the flip are spain 3rd btw?), so we should have a degree of expectation going into these things...

(world rankings: http://www.fifa.com/en/mens/statistics/index/0,2548,AllJun2004,00.html?select11=All&cmbMonth=Jun&cmbYear=2004 entirely nonsensical as far as i can tell)

CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:07 (nineteen years ago) link

A bit, not nearly as much as 1966 gets mentioned, but then the whole of Scotland does not support Celtic.

Madchen (Madchen), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:07 (nineteen years ago) link

we are 14th I think!

Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:07 (nineteen years ago) link

and, to my amazement, i recently discovered that not everyone in Scotland is Scottish

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:08 (nineteen years ago) link

the World Rankings are looking sillier than ever really. Mexico, the USA and Iran only play decent teams every other year

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:08 (nineteen years ago) link

As Tim said, we're all terrified of who we'll meet in the quarters and then semis and don't really expect to get past that. But if we go out (no, not when) then we'll still be heartbroken, and every match we win (assuming we win any) we'll be thinking that we have a realistic chance of winning the next one. And yes, that would include the final if we got that far. You don't suddenly say, faced with a semi-final, "Oh, well the semis was as far as we decided we could reach - obviously we can't go any further now". It's a one-step-at a-time attitude.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:11 (nineteen years ago) link

Was 1967 mentioned much before the recent European runs? I know not all of Scotland supports Celtic but when (say) Man Utd are playing they'll generally mention past glories a bit...

I'm sure I read something saying Celtic and Rangers fans competed for bragging rights over their 9s and 10s in-a-row and that Celtic fans always had the trump card with that Euopean Cup victory. But separating truth from London media myth with regards to the Old Firm is very tough, it seems. Going to live in Scotland to find out the truth is not really on my agenda.

Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:11 (nineteen years ago) link

When Celtic have been having their good runs in European competitions over the past few years, has 1967 been mentioned much?

Well I can't speak for Celtic fans generally, but certainly the Scottish press went over it a few times...

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:13 (nineteen years ago) link

World Rankings are always farcical. Anyway, I don't blame English fans for being hopeful that their team does well but it does tend to balloon out of all proportion. Plus there's an ongoing self-delusion about the actual quality of English footballers and about how England teams play and about how Spain are underachievers and England somehow aren't and Germany are "boring" and England aren't etc etc.

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:14 (nineteen years ago) link


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