― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:17 (seventeen years ago) link
But when I read things like you, Dr. C, and Beth Parker have just written, I am kind of awestruck that people manage to do it. Respect.
― Probability Smear Of Possible Quantum Katehood (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:22 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:24 (seventeen years ago) link
And when the kids are older The REAL humbler is the realization one what a one-way street parent-child love evolves into. My love for my kids is so devouring and greedy—no way they can love me back that way. They're going to love their own lovers and kids that way. They love me in their way, and certainly want me to BE there, but I still can barely keep my hands off them. It's not useful love for them—that smothering thing, so I'm always curbing it. Stopping myself from asking constant questions, etc. They need some separation!
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:30 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:32 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:33 (seventeen years ago) link
You're right Beth - I see that distancing starting in my son (aged 14).
I'm a bit of a wreck today. The emotional floodgates that I referred to way upthread may well open wide unless I get off the thread and do something constructive.
― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:33 (seventeen years ago) link
― case of the mutual heart friendship (onimo), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:34 (seventeen years ago) link
Anyway I don't have children, but I think I understand.
― Laurel (Laurel), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:35 (seventeen years ago) link
It's good you feel that way about your kids Beth. B/c I'm not sure all parents do.
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:36 (seventeen years ago) link
Yes, pretty OTM once you get past the traumas of adolescence and the necessary separation.
Sometimes I can't stand my mother, sometimes she drives me insane, but I still love her so much I just can't contemplate ever being without me. So much it scares me sometimes. And that's when I get cranky and distancing, maybe. Because I'm scared of losing that love.
― Probability Smear Of Possible Quantum Katehood (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:40 (seventeen years ago) link
I think most parents love their kids massively, even if they're incompetent at putting it into practice. The desire for touch is a very animal thing, the licking of the cubs, regurgitating of food into their mouths, etc.
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:40 (seventeen years ago) link
And Laurel's right: I adore both of my parents. Complicated, sure, but without reserve.
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:40 (seventeen years ago) link
I don't gush about them much
Oh don't worry, please, I wasn't complaining at all! I have so many friends with kids and I love them all -- it's great to be an unofficial uncle to so many around here in particular. But as was noted, it takes a certain kind of person to be a parent -- I don't think I am, though I've been told otherwise. In sum: Dr. C, feel free to talk about yer kids whenever. :-)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:42 (seventeen years ago) link
― Laurel (Laurel), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:43 (seventeen years ago) link
But I also know, from my too brief experience of being pregnant, that it's not really something you get a choice in, that it's very powerful and primal and hormonal. You can express that love badly, you can mingle it with resentment and other emotions, but it's something that happens on a neurotransmitter level, not a logical level.
Oh, this is making me very sad now. :-(
― Probability Smear Of Possible Quantum Katehood (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:45 (seventeen years ago) link
I wonder about this often in the case of abusive/neglectufl parents. You can chalk their actions up to their own emotional/mental issues but when that treatment of their children never changes. . .when they never acknowledge it, fix it, own up to it?
I can't say I have any massive love for my parents. My mother, yes some, but largely out of obligation. I'm not sure what I'll feel when she dies, probably some guilt, not sure. Overall I've made peace with keeping her at arm's length and disenganging her from my emotions and life as much as possible. She seems to have no problem with this and has never had much to do with my life anyway. I wish my father was already dead.
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:46 (seventeen years ago) link
I now look back on childhood memories of dinner through a much different viewpoint.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:47 (seventeen years ago) link
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:48 (seventeen years ago) link
― indian rope trick (bean), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:49 (seventeen years ago) link
http://www.awn.com/mag/issue1.3/images/Beck7.gif
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:50 (seventeen years ago) link
So many people are damaged by addictions and undiagnosed mental illness. I'm sure they all have painful moments of lucidity about their parental failings. I don't think my father did, but, oh well.
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:03 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:06 (seventeen years ago) link
my point was simply I don't think everyone has that essential parental chip that you and Dr. C were describing. Reproductive organs aside, not just anyone can be a parent.
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:06 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:11 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:13 (seventeen years ago) link
My father was horribly abused as a kid and is GREAT with kids. Ophelia just loves him so much.
― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:15 (seventeen years ago) link
Whoa, I wouldn't go that far!
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:17 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:20 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:21 (seventeen years ago) link
;-)
― Probability Smear Of Possible Quantum Katehood (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:22 (seventeen years ago) link
Uh... no.
― So weit wie knock-kneed (kenan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:23 (seventeen years ago) link
― Probability Smear Of Possible Quantum Katehood (kate), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:25 (seventeen years ago) link
Millions of years of further evolution will prove that I was in the right.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 18:26 (seventeen years ago) link
― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 20:24 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 20:44 (seventeen years ago) link
they might be surprised that i'm married, though. and rather more so if we spawn.
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 20:46 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:00 (seventeen years ago) link
― g00blar (gooblar), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:08 (seventeen years ago) link
― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:17 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:17 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:18 (seventeen years ago) link
Kate: But one thing I've noticed from this thread is that things go more easily if you don't just react about something someone has said that you disagree with (and it's taken a few instances of self discipline to refrain from zings) but rather to ask questions and get the person to clarify and rephrase until you understand what they are saying, not just what you expect/think they are saying, due to your impression of what their personality is or isn't.
Says Ms "lalala, I'm not listening" - you'll notice from recent interaction on "your" thread that I have not resorting to zinging or cheap points-scoring, rather I have set out in detail some issues which may impinge on the way others see you, but all you've done is go "oh, fuck off already, I can't be arsed with this". But, hey, perhaps if I do it again you'll be more receptive to my points.
(also see your reaction to certain people on the vegetarianism thread (and other thread passim) based on other issues with them elsewhere...I hope your personality isn't so set in stone that you can't stop doing this all over the place)
no, it actually can change it, i've done it. there was stuff i was *really* bitter about in my early 20s (ok perhaps i don't count and am still in flux and am a mere babe at 28) and it made me miserable to myself and horrible to certain other people. it wasn't just huge things either, but small things would *really* get to me and i was angry and hateful. i decided i did not want to be like that, to myself or to anyone else, and after a lot of internal wrangling i have taught myself to be able to let go, to not be someone who carries badnesses with them like that. and sure, for ages it was literally gritting my teeth and telling myself "it.does.NOT.MATTER.let.it.GO." and reacting "gggrrrnnnghhhbut-but-but-waaaaargh" and so on and so on. but now it's different; i have actually changed.
Emsk - you are me and I claim my five pounds. Except I didn't really get the hang of this until a couple of years ago, and I'm six years older than you. So you aren't me, you're a younger yet wiser me, and you can keep your five pounds.
FWIW, I think I spent too long trying to be something I'm not. I'm happier now than I ever was.
And further, since so much upthread is based upon the involvement of a significant other, this internal change came about several years after I met my husband, and after we got married. And it had nothing, really, to do with him. He married me the way I used to be. I'm still the same, just a bit happier with it. And I'm reaping the rewards - I am more settled in myself, happier with my own company and with that of the friends I have and the company I keep (something I used to prioritise above all others when I was completely incapable of maintaining friendships with anyone, without realising I was going totally the wrong way about it).
I don't think my personality is set in stone yet, but I'm getting happier with it than I was.
(I have no idea what the catalyst for the start of this change was, btw)
Oh, sorry, you've all moved on and are now making jokes about skeletons. Carry on.
― ailsa (ailsa), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:45 (seventeen years ago) link
The importance of some sort of grounding in knowing how to be 'social' for lack of a better word is key. This doesn't mean, as Ailsa implies, a codependency or a feeling of 'if I just had *somebody* my life would be happier,' rather it's knowing how to balance out your own take on things (to put it in rough terms) with those of others, especially those whose company you value highly, as friends, relations and so forth.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:48 (seventeen years ago) link
― ailsa (ailsa), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:51 (seventeen years ago) link
― ampersand, spades, semicolon (cis), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:52 (seventeen years ago) link
(xpost)
― ailsa (ailsa), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:53 (seventeen years ago) link
Nah, just me being too subtle for my own good!
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:54 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ms Misery (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:54 (seventeen years ago) link
― ailsa (ailsa), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:55 (seventeen years ago) link