re: Portland
There's allegedly some plans to create a pedestrian bridge connecting the east & west side over the river. Also, I think they're attempting to create a hub of sorts around the base of the tram where all of the modes of transit (streetcar, tram, buses, etc.) would be more interconnected.
― Darin, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 19:02 (fourteen years ago) link
To put a face on the entire "live in city, commute to suburbs" thing that's getting discussed (although my home is probably "suburban" by these standards), here's a rough map of my route to work. I live a little ways too far to comfortably bike in the AM, and it definitely wouldn't be practical in the winter. So, feel free to criticize my lifestyle if you like!
yeah I mean you are in the situation you are in and you have a job and a life and not a ton of room to budge. most people are in that situation.
I'm really only criticizing:
(mainly!) - a. the basic political/economic incentive structure itself - which subsidizes suburban life (in ways that we take for granted) and drains money from urban areas.
b. the alfred-types "my parents worked damn hard for their money and deserve a sprawly house and an SUV" - people who believe that this lifestyle is something they deserveeee instead of something that is a luxury and should be priced as one.
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 19:43 (fourteen years ago) link
Working damn hard = you deserve some luxuries and the suburbs afaik ARE priced as one.
― kkvgz, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 19:48 (fourteen years ago) link
xxp I don't think you get it. It's not the whole Eastside that's neglected, just the far eastern parts past the 205. ("Eastside" = anything east of the river; "East Portland" = past the 205, 5 miles east of the river.) The parts between the river and the 205 (the majority of Portland, really) are fine.
Anyway, the pedestrian bridge thing was just an idea floated around a couple years back that went nowhere. And I'm not sure what you're talking about with this "hub". All the transit is pretty interconnected to begin with. What they are planning on doing is building a transit-only bridge between the Rock Island and Marquam bridges that would carry the next MAX line to Milwaukee, the Eastside streetcar they are currently laying tracks for, and buses. But that won't be for some years.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 19:51 (fourteen years ago) link
something they deserveeee instead of something that is a luxury
these are not mutually exclusive
― hope this helps (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 19:51 (fourteen years ago) link
xx-post
No, they're not. A lot of people move to suburbs because they're cheaper overall, at least in many city areas. Land is cheaper, taxes are generally cheaper since they're not paying for as much infrastructure, and you're more likely to have big box discount stores. You don't get $2 slices of pizza or anything, though.
This doesn't count for "prestige" suburbs but those really are the McMansion/Cadillac Escalade/wine stores in strip malls places that we're using as our straw man here.
― postmodern infidel(ity) (mh), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 19:53 (fourteen years ago) link
― kkvgz, Wednesday, June 9, 2010 12:48 PM Bookmark
In Seattle, it's waaaay cheaper to live in the non-ritzier suburbs than in the city itself. I couldn't afford to live in Seattle, which is why I moved to a cheaper city.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 19:53 (fourteen years ago) link
'the city itself' is expensive because there is a paucity of nice urban neighborhoods in the country and many people actually do want to live in them! that problem is not solved by building new suburbs.
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 19:56 (fourteen years ago) link
What you deserve is a fistful of stfu.
― Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 19:56 (fourteen years ago) link
Apparently you got through college creating dumb binaries and seeing things that aren't there.
― Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 19:57 (fourteen years ago) link
iatee, what exactly are you interested in doing about that other than chiding people?
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 19:57 (fourteen years ago) link
get politically active on this issue? which is something I do, esp on the local level?
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 19:59 (fourteen years ago) link
lol, ILX = the local level
― Grisly Addams (WmC), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:00 (fourteen years ago) link
I know, I know, never mind me.
wtf are you doing here then -- you've got letters to write, envelopes to lick, and suburban moms to send to pogroms.
― Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:02 (fourteen years ago) link
I personally think iatee is speaking the truth as proven by science and as taught in schools of urban planning and land-use theory and w/e. But his language deffo isn't pitched for community outreach, and there are a lot of people choosing to be correspondingly butthurt instead of distinguishing between theory and practice.
― the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:02 (fourteen years ago) link
jeez, a guy shows up saying the suburbs were built at great expense by state power...
― goole, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:03 (fourteen years ago) link
Hard numbers time again: my friends live in a house in a suburban development in what I earlier called the "family" suburb, whereas I live in an older part of the city that's eligible for some neighborhood improvement funds (houses generally need work).
Assessed property values:Family suburb:$34600 for 0.246 acres~ $140,650 per acre
Older city:$23800 for 0.143 aces~ $166,433 per acre
So, to go back to random discussion: Is light rail the trolley system of the future?
― postmodern infidel(ity) (mh), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:03 (fourteen years ago) link
this thread = butthurt city
might i interest you in a nice 3 bed 2 bath out in butthurt forrest? the schools are some of the best in the state.
― used to bull's-eye Zach Wamps in my T-16 back home (will), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:05 (fourteen years ago) link
And cracks aside, I agree with Laurel and iatee generally (I've read my Veblen), but I don't have patience for unproven assumptions. People are reactionary, racist, and vain wherever they grow up; subdivisions don't make them so, no matter what Neil Peart might think.
― Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:05 (fourteen years ago) link
I don't really understand light rail. We have some of it here in parts of NJ that outlie the NY transpo systems, but being put next to the MTA or the PATH makes the light rail look slow and dinky. I'm not familiar with the residential areas that it serves right now, but they've planning to expand it substantially since before they started building the first sections, so maybe someday it will go somewhere useful.
― the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:06 (fourteen years ago) link
light rail is about the only solution for cities that never got around to making their public transportation infrastructure work (or dumped their streetcars lol us)
― apparently not the band, but the lifestyle (jjjusten), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:09 (fourteen years ago) link
light rail can be okay when done successfully, but it's also a great way to waste lots of $.
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:09 (fourteen years ago) link
tbh, we probably had the genius light rail idea after someone looked at mpls, much like our "skywalks" have a surprising similarity to their "skyways."
― postmodern infidel(ity) (mh), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:10 (fourteen years ago) link
Damn, do you work for the city or something? You know a hell of a lot more of about this than I do apparently. Anyway, I just got the info second hand for an annual report I designed for the tram people, but come to think of it that was about 2 years ago now. Last I heard they were going to expand the OHSU campus around the south waterfront and make it more accessible to the rest of the city, but maybe that's no longer true.
Also, there are no buses that connect directly to the tram and that is a problem for a lot of people who commute up the hill.
billion x-posts
― Darin, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:10 (fourteen years ago) link
(I sound like I hate light rail - I don't, but it's only worth it if the money can't be more efficiently spent on buses)
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:12 (fourteen years ago) link
All I know is that light rail is EVIL EVIL EVIL bcuz the guy who owns Midway Books says so.
― Blog is a concept by which we measure our pain (Jon Lewis), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:13 (fourteen years ago) link
Oh, the skytram! I thought you meant the streetcar (which British people call a "tram". Now I have to completely go back and reread your posts cause I completely misread you.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:14 (fourteen years ago) link
The skyPRAM. You know, for babies.
― Blog is a concept by which we measure our pain (Jon Lewis), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:14 (fourteen years ago) link
http://rgr-static1.tangentlabs.co.uk/images/bau/97819333/9781933368559/0/0/plain/bomb-the-suburbs-graffiti-race-freight-hopping-and-the-search-for-hip-hops-moral-center.jpg
― suburbaniatee (Aerosol), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:15 (fourteen years ago) link
i think the big thing about this thread is that the truth is that people choose to live where they do for inherently selfish reasons, this should not be a shock for anyone. some peeps flee to the suburbs for racist or city fear or whatever motiviations, some do it for safety or school reasons (still selfish), i did it because it gave me what i wanted and was actually and ecologically better choice (and btw eco-concerns are also selfish). when i lived in the city, i did it for totally selfish reasons too (proximity to shit going on, etc.)
the thing thats getting to people about iatee's argument i think is that it seems to be built on the idea that city-dwellers are making an altruistic/moral/selfless choice, which is disingenuous.
xxpost hahaha Jon otm!
― apparently not the band, but the lifestyle (jjjusten), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:15 (fourteen years ago) link
I live in NE, and never go to SW, so I just tend to forget the Skytram exists.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:15 (fourteen years ago) link
There's so much stigma against buses in a lot of places. Is light rail an attempt to rehabilitate people's perceptions of PT as clean and modern without fixing the real problem(s)?
And I guess you don't want to just add buses if your streets are already overloaded, poorly planned, and not working in whatever sense...although in that case shouldn't you be spending the money on fixing your roads instead?
― the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:16 (fourteen years ago) link
we have one light rail line and i like it way better than bus. i just wish we had like 6 more of them.
― harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:17 (fourteen years ago) link
People are reactionary, racist, and vain wherever they grow up; subdivisions don't make them so, no matter what Neil Peart might think.
I dunno if you reread what I've actually posted here, I've said basically nothing about race or culture w/r/t the suburbs. not that those things don't play a(n important!) role in the history of the suburbs, but I really have only been talking about the economic/political incentive structures + the environmental impacts - those are the things that matter to me on a personal level. I am a product of a suburb, so I don't think that suburbs make you evil.
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:18 (fourteen years ago) link
The light rail here is a godsend, fyi.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:18 (fourteen years ago) link
what city are you in harbl?
― cherry blossom, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:19 (fourteen years ago) link
baltimore
― harbl, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:20 (fourteen years ago) link
there's a lot of small bore stuff u can do to make bus experience better, like gps locators on buses keyed to subway-style "arrival in" displays at stops. make it more train-like and predictable and ridership increases (maybe)
― goole, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:20 (fourteen years ago) link
I never ride the bus here, except for maybe like once a month. Strictly bike and MAX for me.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:22 (fourteen years ago) link
bus problems (breakdowns, lateness) take on a whole new meaning when you live in the frozen death hole that i call home xxposts
― apparently not the band, but the lifestyle (jjjusten), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:23 (fourteen years ago) link
Ok Darin, now that I'm actually reading you correctly, they extended the streetcar down to the South Waterfront, including the Skytram station. No idea what the bus situation there is cause I never go that way.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:23 (fourteen years ago) link
light rail 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buses
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:24 (fourteen years ago) link
okay I should have avoided bringing this down to a personal level - I believe that the idea of the suburbs is selfish on a macroscopic human-sized level. I don't think many people think about these things when they decide where to live - 'selfish' was a poor (/troll-y) word choice. suburbs are 'inefficient to the point that they are not something that can exist on a global level, thus not something that we can act like we are 'owed' as a human on this planet'
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:24 (fourteen years ago) link
buses suck because they are underfunded, they don't inherently suck. they can be fast and cheap and efficient.
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:25 (fourteen years ago) link
iatee, what about rural dwellers? I'm pretty sure they use more energy than urban-dwellers, too. Should they all move to the city, too?
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:26 (fourteen years ago) link
Is light rail an attempt to rehabilitate people's perceptions of PT as clean and modern without fixing the real problem(s)?
Laurel is pretty much otm, I think that the main reason people were so interested in light rail is that buses are mediocre, seldom available, and have a bad rap around here. They're wisely relocating our transit mall (a block downtown where all of the bus lines converge) to a new station near the revitalized nightlife area, so I'm hoping that means that we'll have a lot more bus traffic in a decade. And, you know, a bus or two that runs after 7PM in a place I want to go.
Light rail is awesome but it doesn't exactly go anywhere useful unless you build long tracks throughout the already congested city.
― postmodern infidel(ity) (mh), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:27 (fourteen years ago) link
The light rail here goes all the way from one end of the metropolitan area to the other. It pretty much takes me 90% of anywhere I need to go.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:28 (fourteen years ago) link
― goole, Wednesday, June 9, 2010 1:20 PM
these are great
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mildlydiverting/2449462/
― cherry blossom, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:28 (fourteen years ago) link
that, or we could continue spending billions of dollars building them their own bridges, roads and spending most of our homeland security money there.
which is, well, what we're gonna do, so,
― iatee, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:29 (fourteen years ago) link