Israel to World: "Suck It."

Are you unable to parse sentences for explanations, or is this some kind of bullshit thing where all questions have a yes/no answer?

I don't have a negative biological reaction when I hear about an artist doing it. I can see reasons why it might not have mattered so I'd have no real reason to care, and reasons why it might make a difference so it might be appropriate to care. I don't have a serious phenomenological feeling about it tho. Is that what you were asking?

if you don't have a feeling about it, just say so, don't give me 300 words of tangents.

But I think the fact that you don't have an opinion about artists raking in money from Sun City gigs says plenty.

Like, I don't know how analogous this is, but I'm not 100% sure it was wrong not to boycott the 1936 Summer Olympics. Clearly the world should've gotten involved in Germany before 1939, but it's hard for me to say that a boycott would've made any difference, and it some ways I feel like positive things came out of it.

as far as I understand it they are an independent territory that Israel considers itself in a state of war against

Then, as signatories to Geneva, Israel should be treating Hamas prisoners as POWs. Which they are not.

Having traouble accessing AC's Nation column (even tho I'm a subscriber -- for about 3 more weeks), so this'll have to do:

Israel is plunging into deeper darkness. As the Israeli journalist Gideon Levy recently told one interviewer: "In the last year there have been real cracks in the democratic system of Israel. ... It's systematic -- it's not here and there. Things are becoming much harder." And Levy also wrote in Haaretz, "When Israel closes its gates to anyone who doesn't fall in line with our official positions, we are quickly becoming similar to North Korea. When right-wing parties increase their number of anti-democratic bills, and from all sides there are calls to make certain groups illegal, we must worry, of course. But when all this is engulfed in silence, and when even academia is increasingly falling in line with dangerous and dark views ... the situation is apparently far beyond desperate."

http://www.creators.com/liberal/alexander-cockburn/pariah-nation.html

quickly becoming similar to North Korea

dismissive blowjob gesture

cockpunch publishes some really disgusting individuals, has zero credibility

also: massive eyerolling over nabisco holding up fuckin' lebanon as the home of free speech and human rights. are you gd kidding man?

Israel run by some really disgusting individuals, has zero credibility

they're unpleasant, but they're not gilad atzmon-unpleasant

body count stats, plz

the people with the lowest count must always be in the right i guess

maybe this is why cockburn feels the need to publish the views of a holocaust denier?

i ask, i do not know

nabisco holding up fuckin' lebanon as the home of free speech and human rights.

Pictured: nabisco (artist's conception)

http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/strawman.jpg

um no

so far as I know, there is no group of people under the control of the Lebanese state who are categorically prevented from coming to see your show.

probably worth checking. immigrant workers and the palestinian population are very much second-class not-exactly-citizens.

interesting qn if gaza would host an elvis costello concert. (obligatory haven't they suffered enough remark)

nrq, your "A published B but now is quoting C so C must be full of shit" brand of 21st-century forensics that J0hn and I have noticed before is really fucking stoopid

no it isn't. atzmon is notorious, and if you publish him you endorse him. i think counterpunch is garbage in general through.

peep this, for examp:

http://www.counterpunch.org/weir08282009.html

"if you publish him you endorse him"

ok no need to bother w/ you

ehh, cockburn's own stuff is pretty stupid, as in the credulous quotes you gave above

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/06/11/schumer-strangle-gaza-economically/

our next majority leader!

I may run against him next time

http://www.jewcy.com/post/did_devendra_banhart_bail_israel_spite_natalie_portman

Mr. Banhart, who has seen his popularity dip in the last two years, is just the latest in a long line of artists who have decided that depriving Israel of art is the answer to ending the occupation.

lol

Wow, that's the kind of serious and incisive commentary this situation calls for.

it's the serious and incisive commentary celebrity bandwagoners deserve merit, usually

Ah, love the sarky tone, so redolent of freshman girl.

Ha, Mordy, Devendra is who I was referring to above when I said "it really is being contextualized as support, on a political level, even with acts not nearly significant enough that you'd think it'd matter." (And like don't ask, but my understanding is that Banhart, not exactly a household name, was taken aback to be held up like a political football.) Describing his cancellation as a "bandwagon" thing is ... well, you can attribute motives that way, or do the inane dismissive routine Jewcy opts for, but it's possible even Banhart can make an actual decision about something now and then, right?

(Jewcy's humor also involves acting like anyone who's fond of an Israeli couldn't possibly cancel a show, as if there aren't plenty of actual Israelis who might support or encourage boycott actions.)

btw I really liked the part of this thread where history mayne argued in favor of child molestation

oh wait, history mayne never said that? geez, how unfair of me, putting words in people's mouths

from what ive heard - they were threatening his life if he wont cancel.
(same rumours about The Pixies)
xpost

Not to jump on that, but heard where, and from who? Did any of these artists announce their cancellations by saying they had safety concerns that couldn't be adequately addressed? Who precisely was threatening their safety?

I mean, those sound like the kinds of rumors that naturally crop up as rationalizations, basically: "oh, it's not that the artists actually came to this decision independently ... it must be that someone (Palestinian) is using violence to prevent us from having nice things." Much better to just say that you think the artist made a poor moral and political decision! (Because maybe it is!)

easy on the italics there sport!

meanwhile, srs qn, could you point me in the direction, internet-wise, of the plenty of israelis who are down with a boycott?

"Banhart's agents said that the musician was pressured into canceling the performance for political reasons.

"We love the land and people of Israel, and have been looking forward to our third show there with unimaginable anticipation," Banhart's official website said.

"Unfortunately, we tried to make it clear that we were coming to share a human and not a political message but it seems that we are being used to support views that are not our own. We will be overjoyed to return to Israel on the day that our presence is perceived and reported on as a cultural event and not a political one. We truly hope that day comes soon."

xpost
the rumours about the life thretening came from the producers.

History, I'm honestly not trying to be super-argumentative here, just saying something very simple: yes, there are Israeli "leftists" who would support certain types of boycotts or sanctions. I'm not saying that's anything like a mainstream opinion, but it is an opinion that is held by some number of Israeli citizens. We don't need to argue over the meaning of the word "plenty" to agree that this group exists, right?

And again, I don't say this argumentatively, but the wording of Banhart's statement is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about above. That statement says:

Unfortunately, we tried to make it clear that we were coming to share a human and not a political message but it seems that we are being used to support views that are not our own.

Like I said:

Devendra is who I was referring to above when I said "it really is being contextualized as support, on a political level, even with acts not nearly significant enough that you'd think it'd matter."

I am not trying to argue about whether his decision was right or wrong. But I would suggest that when shows like this are embraced as political statements -- "these other artists canceled, but Devendra loves and supports Israel" -- it may actually scare certain artists off. Because it strips them of the ability to say "I'm just a musician, I only have a human message, this is not political." Using their appearance in a political way forces them to make a "political" decision about it that they might not have made otherwise.

every1 can agree with the last paragraph

We don't need to argue over the meaning of the word "plenty" to agree that this group exists, right?

welcome to ilx!

There are even Jews in Israel who agree with Helen Thomas' sentiments, like Shlomo Sand.

well we kicked out one of our israeli embassy staff for forging the passports used in the assassination of a hamas leader last year.

that'll teach em.

Israel to World: http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/20/israel.gaza/?hpt=T1
Cynical View: "We need public approval, so here are some concessions."
Optimistic View: "Point taken."

I'm optimistic.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g-1KFy3GhfXq8rFDmSsW58wx0CPw

Turkey bombs kurds, kills 4 including 15-year-old girl.

Wrong thread?

That Israel Thread.

Ugh.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/world/middleeast/29gazabrief.html

...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/21/arab-guilty-rape-consensual-sex-jew

(which led me to discover this o_O http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6589249.stm)

if that kind of 'rape by deception' is a viable claim, then wonderbra better ready themselves for the mother of all class-actions

Wouldn't one look at his penis tell her the truth about his religion? I thought that Jews were pretty much the only people outside the US that did circumcision.

Male circumcision is also a Muslim practice.

So many cultural practices of Jews and Muslims overlap, sometimes I feel like they should stop taking shots at each other and live in pork-free, circumcised, behatted harmony like they do in St John's Wood.

kind of lol but mostly sad

I'm not actually sure the verdict is racist. Apparently it was judged based on a precedent from another case:

In 2008, the High Court of Justice set a precedent on rape by deception, rejecting an appeal of the rape conviction by Zvi Sleiman, who impersonated a senior official in the Housing Ministry whose wife worked in the National Insurance Institute. Sleiman told women he would get them an apartment and increased NII payments if they would sleep with him.

That case only involved Jews. The real problem is that the High Court made a bullshit precedent. They're appealing it, and it'll give the High Court a chance to decide differently, but looking at that precedent I'm not convinced that it was a racist decision. If misleading people is rape (nb: dearest, k3v, I do not believe it is rape and I do not agree with the verdict personally ie: in my personal life), then it makes sense the law would apply like that in this case.

Link btw: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/jurists-say-arab-s-rape-conviction-sets-dangerous-precedent-1.303109

1) I think it's a bizarre law and 2) the way it was actually applied (that this case was even looked at) might have racism behind it, but 3) I'm not sure the way it was ultimately decided in light of the precedence was itself racist, and 4) it should be overturned ASAP because you can't throw every guy in jail who convinces a women to sleep with him by lying.

It's a terrible law, though I can see justification for a sexual assault-type offence where there's an aggravation like abuse of power or breach of trust - there's been a spate of bent coppers here pulling such tricks. Don't know whether that applied here, but if the sole deception was ethnic origin then that's shameful - as darragh says, wonderbra should be next unless the law is sexist too. Calling this rape diminishes the gravity of the word - it can't be one of the ultimate taboo offences and cover stuff like this.

Just read the Ha'aretz article, seems about right. Fraud would be a far better way to deal with this, if at all. I shall be steering clear of the other thread in any event.