I just realized today: going to law school for me isn't a pursuit for a new career. it isn't self-betterment. It's yet another act of self-destruction. I rule.
― burt_stanton
― buzza, Friday, 7 October 2011 05:48 (twelve years ago) link
hahaha BURRRRRRRRT
― markers, Friday, 7 October 2011 05:51 (twelve years ago) link
fuuuuuck, someone please tell me there are disorganized lawyers out there
one year and a bit into law school and i'm still a last-minute clusterfuck. so far: bad grades hopefully balanced out somewhat by solid extracurriculars. but a major achilles' heel in that i'm not sure if i'll ever be able to fastidiously log time... or keep an organized file... or be on top of BF dates... yeuch. i mean, i'm targeting the salaried crown prosecutor job anyways, but i might start out doing crim defense cuz that seems to be where the jobs have been these last few.
how much of a priority is organization for lawyers?
― fennel cartwright, Friday, 7 October 2011 07:27 (twelve years ago) link
Dude, of course there are disorganized lawyers out there. You should see the desks of some partners. You should hear how many times I've already said to experienced people "Uh, we're supposed to have a conference call this week -- did anyone set that up?" etc.
Still, thing is it will make your life much easier and make your work better to be organized.
I had the same fears about billing, keeping files, etc. Some of it is a matter of simple systems -- e.g. I always do my timesheet from the prior day right when I come in in the morning. If I really have to be exact about hours for something, I just write a start time when I start working on something and a stop time when I stop for a bit -- it's not that hard.
In re keeping an organized file -- depends where you work, but you may have a paralegal or secretary who does this. Also keeping things organized on a computer is pretty easy.
What I've found most of all is that motivation drives organization. If you want to do well then your drive to be organized will spring out of that. You'll find makeshift ways of keeping track of things, however imperfect, that serve your greater needs.
― Disraeli Geirs (Hurting 2), Friday, 7 October 2011 12:18 (twelve years ago) link
ideally, you should keep time basically contemporaneously. i do, for stretches, but then regress to doing it all at the end of the day (which inevitably means you don't capture all your time).
keeping files organized is essential, but it's also fairly easy, given the division of labor at most firms. assistants handle it, and we have a parallel online index of materials.
― Daniel, Esq., Friday, 7 October 2011 12:29 (twelve years ago) link
don't worry. robots will replace lawyers soon, anyway.
― Daniel, Esq., Friday, 7 October 2011 12:30 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah I'm plaintiff's side so there's slightly less pressure to get it down to the exact 6-minute-increment. But at the other firm where I worked I would sometimes approximate. I think it's reasonable as long as you do it in an honest way, e.g. make realistic estimates of time you spend surfing the net and take those out, etc.
― Disraeli Geirs (Hurting 2), Friday, 7 October 2011 12:56 (twelve years ago) link
Just finished by 1st month. Estate law seems really rough, not looking forward to going into depth on that subject...
― monster_xero, Friday, 7 October 2011 22:32 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/25/opinion/are-law-schools-and-bar-exams-necessary.html
― iatee, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 03:37 (twelve years ago) link
Passed the bar.
Hate to sound douchey but I think a lot of the anxiety over it is just people working themselves into a needless frenzy. Passing is not that hard, and pretty much everyone I know passed.
― pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 2 November 2011 05:12 (twelve years ago) link
congratulations!
― estela, Wednesday, 2 November 2011 05:53 (twelve years ago) link
congrats dude!
― dayo, Wednesday, 2 November 2011 10:27 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2011/11/law_schools_should_pay_students_to_quit_.html
written by yale law profs
― iatee, Friday, 18 November 2011 22:01 (twelve years ago) link
Another possible reform would oblige law schools to lend money directly to students—so that defaults hurt the school’s bottom line rather than taxpayers’. While educational lenders are legally allowed to insist on repayment even after bankruptcy, schools are free to renounce this option. Schools that would bear the loss of unpaid student loans would have better incentives to admit students who will avoid bankruptcy. Any school unwilling to lend to its students this way would be sending a strong negative signal to its applicants. Any school that is truly a good deal should put its own money where its mouth is.
^ this is actually a better idea than the main idea but as w/ many things written from a professor's pov they don't approach the idea that maybe we have an institutional-level problem if it takes $150,000 to teach somebody how to be a lawyer
― iatee, Friday, 18 November 2011 22:04 (twelve years ago) link
Ugh. After a first year of mixed B's, B+'s and A-'s, we just got our grades for first semester of 2L.
Somehow I managed to get an A- in Common Law Property, which had been kicking my ass all term, and a C+ in Advanced Common Law Obligations, which seemed amorphous and fairly easy to grasp (but which is - obviously - the one that jobs will care about more when applying).
Need to turn the year around this semester. Funny how ten minutes can make you life feel much less in control than it did before. Hmph.
― Somewhere between Fergie and Jesus (Alex in Montreal), Thursday, 19 January 2012 05:41 (twelve years ago) link
Sorry. This is pointless whining. But it's 1AM and I'm still doing Criminal Law readings, and holding back our grades until nearly a month into the next semester seems needlessly cruel.
― Somewhere between Fergie and Jesus (Alex in Montreal), Thursday, 19 January 2012 05:42 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/business/for-lsat-sharp-drop-in-popularity-for-second-year.html
― iatee, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:41 (twelve years ago) link
good
― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 18:21 (twelve years ago) link
Good news for people already in law school
― monster_xero, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 19:38 (twelve years ago) link
Negligbly so, imo. There aren't many scenarios in which you'd be competing for work with someone coming up behind you.
― i don't believe in zimmerman (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 19:41 (twelve years ago) link
If anything, good news for anyone who winds up in a smaller law school class as a result. Although I don't know if the drop is going to be big enough to have that kind of impact.
― i don't believe in zimmerman (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 19:42 (twelve years ago) link
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/03/22/9-graduates-lose-case-against-new-york-law-school/?emc=eta1
― dayo, Friday, 23 March 2012 19:55 (twelve years ago) link
They sought $225 million in damages — a number that they said represented the difference between what they contended was inflated tuition and the “true value” of their degree.
lol
― The term “hipster racism” from Carmen Van Kerckhove at Racialicious (nakhchivan), Friday, 23 March 2012 20:08 (twelve years ago) link
i sympathize with the plaintiffs and American law schools are really slippery wr2 how they report graduates' salaries, but really the plaintiffs didn't stand a ghost of a chance.
― kurwa mać (Polish for "long life") (Eisbaer), Friday, 23 March 2012 20:17 (twelve years ago) link
this will be a pr problem that won't wash away anytime soon, however, and will seem far more important when nyls eventually goes out of business
― iatee, Friday, 23 March 2012 20:58 (twelve years ago) link
they didn't stand a chance in part because the problem is too big and entrenched. If every law school suddenly had to openly report realistic employment numbers, it would upend the industry.
Also the judicial system is itself kind of invested in the law school-industrial complex. At very least I think judges are likely to have a special kind bias.
― i don't believe in zimmerman (Hurting 2), Friday, 23 March 2012 21:13 (twelve years ago) link
I dunno they have a bias for 'the system works! look at me, for example' and not necessarily 'lol let's ensure that middle class kids continue to graduate w/ 6 figures of debt and no job prospects'
― iatee, Friday, 23 March 2012 21:16 (twelve years ago) link
like they're not getting paid under the table by law schools and in fact it's in the best interest of people w/ jds to slow the creation of new jds a la the AMA
― iatee, Friday, 23 March 2012 21:18 (twelve years ago) link
That's what I mean though. They're all people for whom the system worked out quite well. They also all graduated at a very different time in legal education and the job market.
― i don't believe in zimmerman (Hurting 2), Friday, 23 March 2012 21:19 (twelve years ago) link
I actually don't think the AMA comparison works. A partner in a law firm has an interest in a huge pool of potential associates.
― i don't believe in zimmerman (Hurting 2), Friday, 23 March 2012 21:20 (twelve years ago) link
I think that if the current biglaw hiring cuts keep going in the mid-to-long term, it's realistic to think that better financially endowed universities will demand that their law schools reform their financial aid so that it's not modeled on the "into the firms you go! You'll be rich!" nonsense that's around at the moment, and poorer universities may have to dramatically shrink their admissions.
― Three Word Username, Friday, 23 March 2012 21:21 (twelve years ago) link
That sounds backwards. Law Schools are cash cows for universities.
― i don't believe in zimmerman (Hurting 2), Friday, 23 March 2012 21:23 (twelve years ago) link
Think it through, counselor: they are cash cows under the current "get loans and pay us in full, you'll be ok" model. IF that model is dying, as it would have to be if the current hiring crisis continues...
― Three Word Username, Friday, 23 March 2012 21:25 (twelve years ago) link
well, the ABA certainly isn't going to push for it ... in fact, their accredidation standards are arguably one of the factors for law schools' tuition hikes over the years. on this and a zillion other things, the ABA may be the most useless guild/trade association ever.
― kurwa mać (Polish for "long life") (Eisbaer), Friday, 23 March 2012 21:26 (twelve years ago) link
also hurting OTM wr2 the mindset of old-school lawyers/judges wr2 younger lawyers and their debt loads/job problems.
― kurwa mać (Polish for "long life") (Eisbaer), Friday, 23 March 2012 21:27 (twelve years ago) link
― i don't believe in zimmerman (Hurting 2), Friday, March 23, 2012 4:20 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
idk, a small law firm in a small market does not benefit from the market being flooded, and a big law firm in a big market doesn't really have anything invested in how many students there are at nyls.
― iatee, Friday, 23 March 2012 21:27 (twelve years ago) link
The firms are going to lose their leverage if they start messing with big universities' credibility, is what I'm saying.
― Three Word Username, Friday, 23 March 2012 21:31 (twelve years ago) link
That isn't true, necessarily xpost. Discovery requires a huge supply of relatively cheap JD labor. Big firms, in fact, do rely on armies of NYLS graduates who work for them via contractors. And the more of those you have who are desperate for work, the better quality you get and the less you have to pay.
― i don't believe in zimmerman (Hurting 2), Friday, 23 March 2012 21:34 (twelve years ago) link
― Three Word Username, Friday, March 23, 2012 5:31 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Oh I guess maybe at some point that becomes true. It's hard for me to think of a university right now whose law school's reputation is in danger of being enough degrees worse to drag it down.
― i don't believe in zimmerman (Hurting 2), Friday, 23 March 2012 21:35 (twelve years ago) link
graduates-lose-case-against-new-york-law-school
haha explains why they were they ones who didnt get jobs amirite
― Lamp, Friday, 23 March 2012 21:36 (twelve years ago) link
yeah I guess I wasn't thinking about that, tho I've gotten the sense that the work can eventually be automated xp
― iatee, Friday, 23 March 2012 21:36 (twelve years ago) link
There is early talk of something called "computer assisted document review" right now which might eliminate some of the need for some of the most basic document coding jobs. It sounds a little questionable to me unless they've invented AI and not told anyone.
― i don't believe in zimmerman (Hurting 2), Friday, 23 March 2012 21:40 (twelve years ago) link
people who don't care about this subject can't tell you what schools have good law schools anyway. there are relatively few schools w/ any sort of national prestige, and only some of them have law schools, and they're all schools that will survive the wildfire regardless.
xps
― iatee, Friday, 23 March 2012 21:41 (twelve years ago) link
What I suggest is not going to happen this year or next year, but the current crop of mid-level partners never saw the law firm life in the 80s and may not believe that the good times will come back -- so they might keep hiring levels low after a recovery (as their clients figured out in '02) -- and that would definitely force the issue.
― Three Word Username, Friday, 23 March 2012 21:41 (twelve years ago) link
So, cash cow gives no more green milk and people start bitching loudly about the credibility of the placement and financial aid departments: reform it or close it.
― Three Word Username, Friday, 23 March 2012 21:43 (twelve years ago) link
well the lawyer-population ratio today is unsustainably high regardless and regardless of doc review, various forms of legal automation will prob lower what the 'sustainable' lawyer-population ratio would be anyway
― iatee, Friday, 23 March 2012 21:44 (twelve years ago) link
besides lol "computer assisted document review," there's the specter of "old-school" document review being sent to India -- which is a much more real short-term threat than automated.
― kurwa mać (Polish for "long life") (Eisbaer), Friday, 23 March 2012 21:45 (twelve years ago) link
and of course there's good old legalzoom.com -- if you REALLY want to see small firm/solos go ballistic, mention that name and break out the popcorn.
― kurwa mać (Polish for "long life") (Eisbaer), Friday, 23 March 2012 21:46 (twelve years ago) link
yeah thats what I meant w/ various forms of automation
― iatee, Friday, 23 March 2012 21:47 (twelve years ago) link