The Mormons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdiZOsHOG6o

the, uh, epistemological, metaphysical, and theological questions around how non-co-religionists could feel aggrieved by mormons baptizing their relatives seem... subtle.

abbott - either!

the, uh, epistemological, metaphysical, and theological questions around how non-co-religionists could feel aggrieved by mormons baptizing their relatives seem... subtle.

really? a major religion (with its own presidential candidate and everything) is going through the ancestries of jewish families and claiming to convert and purify the souls of the dead so they can finally get into real heaven. i'm entirely unsurprised that people are outraged by this, and not just the descendents of the deceased. it's more a question of basic respect than of whether or not you believe mormons have magical post-mortem baptism powers.

right, ethically, it seems pretty obviously bad (to the point that anyone doing it would have huge reservations, you would think). but if you're not mormon, then... do you think it could work somehow? and if you don't, then couldn't it also seem silly rather than offensive?

let's not overlook the fact that it's a deliberate attempt to obscures/obfuscates actual family histories and increase the rolls of people that the church can claim to be Mormon.

this could all be used against Romney, right?

not really. this is a pretty well-worn grudge topic against the Mormons, it's not like this is anything new or that Romney's even involved

oh yeah, it seems silly to me, but i can see as how others would be infuriated. never underestimate the ability of people to take offense.

re: j

i wonder if any of the souls ever decline to be baptized.

They do temple marriages for the dead by proxy, too, but I don't think it's as on big of a scale. It's what my parents do on vacation!

yeah but when you're running for chance to run as republican candidate , where a lot of voters are evangelical christians, his enemies will stop at nothing to smear him, right? Tie him in with it and he could lose votes. Thats how politics works right?

not really. this is a pretty well-worn grudge topic against the Mormons, it's not like this is anything new or that Romney's even involved

i dunno. suspect that a lot of american voters know next to nothing abt mormonism. and lots of conservative voters are deeply religious. could see some uproar among the base at the idea that romney's minions might have secretly rebaptised the corpse of grampa joe.

i wonder if any of the souls ever decline to be baptized.

This was always my question –– I did hundreds of baptisms for the dead as a teeen. They have the option to decline, but if you're in this clearly Mormon construction of the afterlife, why would you choose to? Or do other faiths have recruiting efforts in Spirit Paradise (as they call it)? Never got an answer.

there should probably be an anti-romney scare site about this, tbh. "how mormons are trying to steal the souls of the christian dead" or somesuch, implying that your loved ones could be next.

pretty sure Romney had his atheist father-in-law baptized posthumously

suspect that a lot of american voters know next to nothing abt mormonism. and lots of conservative voters are deeply religious.

deeply religious conservative voters know PLENTY about the Mormon church, including (most likely) their penchant for posthumous baptisms, and the majority of these deeply religious conservative voters already have concluded that a) Mormons are not Christians and b) how that will impact their vote. This particular instance is not news to anybody in the American electorate, and will not make waves.

xp

xxpost it's only fair imo. i mean christ can you imagine if the shoe were on the other foot

catholics'l' take you right up to the actual time of death but tbh once you're gone you're gone

you've got a lot more faith in the depth of religious education enjoyed by most americans than i do, shakey...

this is seriously not news to anyone who follows Christian theology in America. GOP Xtian primary voters have already made up their minds as to how they feel about Romney and his Mormonism - some will undoubtedly refuse to vote for him and that will be one of the reasons, others will find plenty of other reasons not to vote for him. And some will vote for him anyway and say it doesn't matter.

xp

re: abbott

well, sure, your own planet sounds awesome, but people are always declining salvation in all the other religions too. i guess if they never built 'finding out whether the soul really wants it' into the baptism ceremonies then the default answer is, no, they don't really concern themselves with that possibility.

i'm imagining, like, a ceremony where you wait to see if a light goes on. or a candle burns out.

hey if it's good enough to choose a pope........

you've got a lot more faith in the depth of religious education enjoyed by most americans than i do, shakey...

lol do you know what the biggest show on Broadway is this year? Do you know how much American evangelicals have had to say about the Mormon church over the years? Do you know how many Mormons are out there proselytizing about their religion to the general public on a daily basis? gimme a break.

if even a small percentage of conservative/independent voters were repelled by this, it could make a huge difference in romney's chances overall. liberal and anti-romney religious leaders are seriously dropping the ball if they don't try to manufacture a big OUTRAGE! over this. libs get a pass, of course, if they'd rather see romney in the general...

if geo. lucas CGI'd your dead ancestor into phantom menace, there'd probably be some legal recourse, but would there really be any in this case? I suspect a lot of the offense is amplified by there being no other deterrent.

no one will manufacture a big outrage over this because it is not news.

also directly impugning anyone's religion is reaaaaaallly treacherous territory politically - which is why, so far, most of the evangelicals who actively hate Mormons and don't consider them Christians have, for the most part, kept quiet about this small bigotry. Romney has plenty of other liabilities ripe for exploitation, no need to lay any landmines re: his religion.

Do you know how many Mormons are out there proselytizing about their religion to the general public on a daily basis? gimme a break.

i bet one in five americans don't really know how an internal combustion engine works. i bet a substantial number don't know anything about catholic or mormon doctrine. whether or not such people vote is a fair question, but i don't see any reason to throw away an opportunity to foment OUTRAGE! against romney and the creepy cult from which he sprang. if obama's church were doing something similar, would conservatives seize upon it and make a big stinking deal about it? hell yeah they would.

why isn't anyone trying to tear David Archuleta's career into shreds over this, I ask

there's probably nutters on fox news comments doing exactly what shakey says wont happen, and on other websites. These guys will go loooooow as they can to get their message out.

here's a piece from SEVEN YEARS AGO detailing evangelicals well-established antipathy towards Mormons

xp

if obama's church were doing something similar, would conservatives seize upon it and make a big stinking deal about it? hell yeah they would.

damn right

was that card ever played against Harry Reid?

you guys are missing my central point, that the people who would use this against Romney have already known about this notorious practice of the Mormon church for decades. it is not a new angle to exploit against him. and they have plenty of other weapons in their arsenal that don't have the propensity to backfire like attacking his religion does.

xp

was that card ever played against Harry Reid?

in Nevada? hell no.

suspect that conservatives don't wanna go after romney on this soley because he's on their side. only an idiot takes shots at his/her own team. if romney were a democrat, however, i bed we'd be hearing a LOT about it. maybe not from mainstream sources with respectability cred, but definitely from the "fringe", from the designated "not-mainstream" voices.

Ha, the other way around, Mormons hate that Reid is repub: "Several Republican Mormons in Utah have contested his faith because of his politics, such as his statements that the church's backing of California's Proposition 8 wasted resources."

not repub, dem
blurf

high-minded liberal refusal to take the obvious shots often confuses me. no one has to demonize mormonism or mormons. if powerful jewish voices were raised in protest of this specific practice, and if powerful christian and democratic voices echoed the cry, then i could see this becoming an effective tool against romney (and against the mormon church in general). maybe best saved for the general, i dunno...

the general assholes

ah, and maybe i'm wrong. maybe it would come across as cheap, underhanded religion-bashing no matter what. was just a thought...

IDK it doesn't seem that weird TO ME

bigger scandal could be: does romney tithe based on total revenue or income from speaking fees only?

yeah net or gross income tithe, Romney>?

Obama's mother posthumously baptized into LDS Church

Obama: SECRET MORMON

they stole his dead mother.....now he wants her back (liam neeson as b obama)

if romney were a democrat, however, i bed we'd be hearing a LOT about it.

no. No one has attacked Reid for simply BEING a Mormon.

This is not a story. No one in the US reads the Guardian, this story won't even get reported in the American press, much less exploited by anyone for political gain.

lol do you know what the biggest show on Broadway is this year

If there's one thing deeply conservative religious Americans love, it's Broadway.