10 Steps To Fascism

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Sorry, in terms of numbers of PRISONERS

― Hurting 2, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 13:47 (seventeen years ago) link

actually to backtrack a little i think there are common ways in which authoritarianism works wherever it happens, fine. but after reading so much stuff about how this happens, in specific, from all kinds of people (josh marshall, anne applebaum who i'm totally in love with right now), this just seems really, i dunno, undergraduate.

at this very late date let's at least not give the cats in the echo chamber another OMG DEY SED BUSHITLER AGIN!@#!@# yarnball to play with

― gff, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 14:00 (seventeen years ago) link

ffs, how does naomi wolf have any credibility, it's 2007. at least get the other naomi (klein) for this sort of boilerplate shit.

― gershy, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 14:15 (seventeen years ago) link

ANOTHER NAOMI IS POSSIBLE

― gff, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 14:16 (seventeen years ago) link

It's G2, what do you expect???????

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 14:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Marian Wright Edelman, the person who coined the phrase "no child left behind" - subsequently hijacked by Bush - says that the US is in danger of becoming an essentially fascist society. I don't know specifically why she says that, though. It would have made a good article.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 14:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Hurting OTM, but this phrase,

"...each of us might have a different moment when we feel forced to look back and think: that is how it was before - and this is the way it is now..."

I feel has been applicable for several years. The US is not the same place it was in the 90s as this article demosntrates by being a stretch but difficult to dismiss offhand.

― riche, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 14:43 (seventeen years ago) link

The US used to be a "can-do" nation. Ingenuity and stick-to-it-iveness. Now people can barely tie their own shoes without instructions.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 14:52 (seventeen years ago) link

Well OK, maybe they can tie their shoes. I am being too hard.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 14:57 (seventeen years ago) link

More OTM than the Guardian piece are Umberto Eco's 10 "general properties of facist ideology" from "Eternal Facism," quoted in the Wiki article that StanD referenced upstream. I especially like: "Pacifism is Trafficking With the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" - there must always be an enemy to fight"; "Appeal to a frustrated middle class" (that one's for you, TomD); and the bit about facism "employing and promoting an impovershed vocabulary." I wonder if any other American presidential administration can approach Bush's for pure volume of catch-phrases absorbed into and perpetuated by the news media? (Viral marketing genius, in its way.)

― crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 14:59 (seventeen years ago) link

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/433020755_cd79c68446.jpg
GM - Tits Ooi

― Dr Pow, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 14:59 (seventeen years ago) link

"Appeal to a frustrated middle class"

Cultivate a resentful majority

― Tom D., Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:03 (seventeen years ago) link

Crrxn: Wiki article that ~~StanD~~ StanM referenced upstream

― crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:05 (seventeen years ago) link

"Cultivate a resentful majority"

Right. I actually don't think Bush's administration has done a very good job on this one. There seemed to be a pretty strong current of anti-immigrationism going on there for a bit (see Minutemen et al), but not anything new (Prop 187--California uber alles), and Bush hasn't really managed to focus middle class resentment on a particularly useful target--I mean, the affirmative action backlash is pretty pathetic from a fascist point of view. If only he could convince us that the jihadists are after not our LIVES but our JOBS.

― crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:11 (seventeen years ago) link

I would also recommend Chris Hedges' series of columns talking about how this shit happens w.r.t. the dominionist/christian reconstructionist part, with stuff like fundie leaders advocating this fucked up mixed of the worst aspects of american corporatism, nationalism, all soaked thru with violence. Stuff like Blackwater now functioning as a praetorian guard, these guys saying how you don't need health insurance if you're right with God, etc.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:13 (seventeen years ago) link

Also, frankly, I think America's hyper-capitalism ultimately works against any movement towards a specifically fascist form of authoritarian gov't. THE MARKET IS OUR GOD, the gov't exists only to serve it. (Not that it can't employ a few tasty tidbits from the fascist bento box in achieving that aim.)

― crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:14 (seventeen years ago) link

Or does capitalism exist to serve the interests of an elitist leadership? Now I'm confused...

― crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:15 (seventeen years ago) link

There seemed to be a pretty strong current of anti-immigrationism going on there for a bit

More bark than bite. Solid majorities across the US are in favor of a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Or does capitalism exist to serve the interests of an elitist leadership? Now I'm confused...

bit of a distinction to be made that a lot of what goes on in America can more correctly termed corporatism, which _definitely_ serves and controls the authorities

― kingfish, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:36 (seventeen years ago) link

A problem for our authoritarian leaders: How can we mobilize the resentment of the middle class, and still encourage their complacent consumerism? The Cold War was excellent in this respect--how lovely when our enemies are also the enemies of capitalism. Our new "enemies of freedom" lack the appealing specificity of the old "enemies of our system of commerce." An American-way-of-life rhetoric can be brought to bear either way, but I think our middle class might be a little confused at this point about what, exactly, we're supposed to feel threatened by. Thus is our paranoia pervasive, but diffuse.

Luckily, the North Koreans are still communists!

― crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:37 (seventeen years ago) link

how lovely when our enemies are also the enemies of capitalism

Islamic fundamentalists are enemies of capitalism - it's their only redeeming feature!

― Tom D., Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:39 (seventeen years ago) link

"Also, frankly, I think America's hyper-capitalism ultimately works against any movement towards a specifically fascist form of authoritarian gov't. THE MARKET IS OUR GOD, the gov't exists only to serve it. (Not that it can't employ a few tasty tidbits from the fascist bento box in achieving that aim.)

-- crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, April 24, 2007 6:14 PM (23 minutes ago)
Or does capitalism exist to serve the interests of an elitist leadership? Now I'm confused...

-- crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, April 24, 2007 6:15 PM (22 minutes ago)"

as she says, rightly, fascism was a corporatist/capitalist response to communism. she goes wrong in suggesting communism was kind of trumped up by hitler to scare the voters. the business leaders who funded him felt it was a very real threat. in practice the US doesn't live up to free-market ideology.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:41 (seventeen years ago) link

"bit of a distinction to be made that a lot of what goes on in America can more correctly termed corporatism, which _definitely_ serves and controls the authorities"

Right, this is a good example of a specific way capitalism can be used to promote the interests of a specific elite (and how clever of the authorities to align themselves with that elite); but I think "capitalism" promotes "elitism" in a more general way--even when corporations aren't the elite.

I'm still interested in how capitalism aligns with fascism, though. In a broad sense, capitalism feeds off (at least the illusion of) individualism, whereas fascism encourages explicit conformity to a unified ideal. This seems like a contradiction. One exception that springs immediately to mind is Japan, which is as rabidly consumerist as America, but not at all caught up in American myths of individualism. (Not suggesting that Japan is a fascist nation...but it makes all the sense in the world that they got in bed with the Germans and Italians in 1940.)

Maybe I'm confusing "individualism" with "individuality."

― crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:50 (seventeen years ago) link

"in practice the US doesn't live up to free-market ideology"

Capitalism is a moral system/symbol with great power over the American psyche--it doesn't necessarily accurately describe how our markets work.

― crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:53 (seventeen years ago) link

haha, you haven't been around much, have you? Try to talk to Manalashi a.k.a. Roger Adultery on one of these threads.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:55 (seventeen years ago) link

"Islamic fundamentalists are enemies of capitalism - it's their only redeeming feature!"

True. But I don't think the Bush administration has done a good job of getting this across to the middle class masses. They hate freedom! Bush would do better to remind us that when he says, "freedom," he means "freedom to pursue our constant consumer cravings." Instead, I think people have a general idea that they hate us because our women wear short skirts. And because we seem to like the Jews. (Sort of.)

Tangent: When did we start saying "the Bush administration?" Did we really say "the Clinton administration" when Clinton was in office, or did that happen after the power exchange (heh heh)? Didn't we used to have presidents, not "administrations?" (I really can't remember.)

― crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 16:00 (seventeen years ago) link

"haha, you haven't been around much, have you? Try to talk to Manalashi a.k.a. Roger Adultery on one of these threads."

I resent this. I've been around plenty.

Oh, you mean around on ILX? Well, no.

― crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 16:02 (seventeen years ago) link

But why do you ask? Have I wandered into laissez-faire lion's den or something? Are people going to start quoting Ayn Rand at me?

― crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 16:05 (seventeen years ago) link

Hahaha, not so much "people" as like "one or two guys and maybe some random asshole troll googler".

Let's just say that there are bigger supporters of rapacious laissez-faire capitalism out there than this board. Take a look around at some of the other threads to get an idea of where we are.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 16:36 (seventeen years ago) link

also something to track, and more and more people are doing this, the dominionist types trying to take over the U.S. military, and what happens when you get the army filled with rightwing authoritarian followers, and of their belief of the righteousness of their violence:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c219/talk2action/warrior.gif

― kingfish, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 17:24 (seventeen years ago) link

don't forget these guys:

http://www.regent.edu/general/about_us/home.cfm

― King Kitty, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:55 (seventeen years ago) link

Bottom-line: not all bad political situations fit neatly into the rubric of prior bad political situations

― Hurting 2, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Except that all of this has happened before. All of this will happen again.

Like with Cylons.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:02 (seventeen years ago) link

lolz @ Britishers (yet again)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:07 (seventeen years ago) link

which thread was it where some Brit was asking about why the Constitution can't just be rewritten/disobeyed?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:07 (seventeen years ago) link

I never ever ever stop finding it funny when people misspell Fascism as Facism.

― The Real Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:09 (seventeen years ago) link

fecism

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:10 (seventeen years ago) link

"lolz @ Britishers (yet again)

-- Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, April 25, 2007 1:07 AM (23 minutes ago)
which thread was it where some Brit was asking about why the Constitution can't just be rewritten/disobeyed?

-- Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, April 25, 2007 1:07 AM (22 minutes ago)"

hmm, dunno, but naomi wolf is american.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:31 (seventeen years ago) link

we have our share of idiots, yes

― moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Facism is the new racism.

[i]"Do Pretty People Earn More?"[i] (CNN)

― crazymonkeyfromjapan, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:53 (seventeen years ago) link

1. Cut a hole in a box.

― Spencer Chow, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:54 (seventeen years ago) link

I know who Naomi Wolf is. I am aso cognizant of what country the Guardian is published in, and the nationality of various posters on this thread.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 23:08 (seventeen years ago) link

(anyway vahid OTM as usual)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 23:08 (seventeen years ago) link

it's kind of an undirected 'lolz @ britishes' then since the britishes were not alll of one voice. most were, however, critical of the american writer wolf, so i'm still not seeing your point.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 23:12 (seventeen years ago) link

okay then lolz @ British publishers of this article, lolz @ British readers who find it somehow illuminating or engaging, and lolz @ Carsmile Steve for general misconception about US political history

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 23:15 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't know, none of that seems very funny

― admrl, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 23:17 (seventeen years ago) link

Eh, she's got some points but there are all kind of stretches and false parallels made in her arguments. Guantanamo and the secret prisons are really bad but they're not exactly on the scale of gulags in terms of numbers of prisons. Private security contractors are really scary in their own way but I don't see the analogy to brownshirts one bit.

-- Hurting 2, Tuesday, 24 April 2007

The point of the article was to suggest that the U.S. is taking steps toward fascism, not that we're already there. I can't see the use of secret prisons declining anytime soon, and since the Guantanamo scandal didn't result in enough public outrage, they know they can pretty much get away with it now.

I agree, the private security contractor/thug caste connection was a stretch. I can, however, see the local-level police being turned into a mindless government enforcement branch. Lots of them already are.

― Z S, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 00:13 (seventeen years ago) link

wait this is 2007 not 2003 -- way to go

― JW, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 00:23 (seventeen years ago) link

9. Dissent equals treason

Cast dissent as "treason" and criticism as "espionage'. Every closing society does this, just as it elaborates laws that increasingly criminalise certain kinds of speech and expand the definition of "spy" and "traitor".

Democratic leaders are acting like traitors by opposing the Iraq war, and President Bush must answer with a toughened stance, former U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said Monday.

U.S. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi "are getting very, very close to treason," DeLay said in a meeting with the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review.

― M.V., Wednesday, 25 April 2007 00:24 (seventeen years ago) link

haha quoting a wingnut former politco with nothing left to loose

― JW, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 00:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Skipping 65 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/5/3/102322/7962

― M.V., Thursday, 3 May 2007 17:28 (seventeen years ago) link

eight years pass...

Has anti-fascism lost its urgency in the eight years since this was published? I grew up with World War II veterans for relatives. My own father was a WWII buff. "Don't be a fascist" was a big thing in my family. Might seem quaint to a younger generation? My own mother was a big proponent of "never forget". Yet on the Internet, I encounter many people -especially younger people - for whom it is more like "never even considered it". Even with a black man in the White House, I think it's important to "never forget".

― Fake Sam's Club Membership (I M Losted), Tuesday, 7 July 2015 16:54 (eight years ago) link

thread title sounds like the evil self-help shadow of

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419KZWFeBcL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

― difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 7 July 2015 18:02 (eight years ago) link

http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Fascist

― jmm, Tuesday, 7 July 2015 18:03 (eight years ago) link

thread title sounds like the evil self-help shadow of

Seven Steps to Heaven

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 7 July 2015 18:05 (eight years ago) link

modern states' complete fealty to global capitalism makes fascism look p quaint and outdated

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 7 July 2015 18:06 (eight years ago) link

eight years pass...

Our mission statement is the same as it is on the podcast: that people should be able to understand complex ideas and have fun at the same time. All the knowledge. None of the pain.
— Ian Dunt (@IanDunt) May 22, 2024

― xyzzzz__, Friday, 24 May 2024 08:57 (five days ago) link

'people should be able to understand complex ideas', muses the man who discovered for the first time only months that neoliberalism is a political ideology and not just a slur leftists attach to people they don't like

― katy perry (prison service) (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 24 May 2024 11:49 (five days ago) link

only months AGO

― katy perry (prison service) (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 24 May 2024 11:49 (five days ago) link

Blimey, the person who wrote the article cited at the top of the thread though...

― your mom goes to limgrave (dog latin), Friday, 24 May 2024 20:04 (five days ago) link

Oh, buddy. Ooooof.

― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 24 May 2024 20:06 (five days ago) link

never forget

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3GORdkXEAskO9P.jpg

― katy perry (prison service) (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 24 May 2024 20:55 (five days ago) link

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