Israel to World: "Suck It."

also, Israel provides them electricity and water.
they do seige them by sea - to prevent them from getting weapons.
other goods are provided.

the problem of course is not the common people in Gaza, but Hammas and other militant groups.
Gideon Levi (far-left) said yesterday he got calls from Gaza residents telling him Israel should terminate the Hammas.

which, imo, they wouldnt do cause of the high price in casualties, and the fact that the vacuum will be filling itself anyway after awhile with other militants who wont accept the existence of Israel.

"Oh definitely. I would have peaced out of there so long ago"

easier said than done

what Israel should do is talk.
the question is do they have a partner they can trust and vice versa.
the scepticism from both sides is very high and Abu Mazen/Netanyahu arent the strongest leaders around.

Isarel IDF left Gaza long time ago
--nostormo

So you opinion is that the lack of permanent military bases is the only determinant here?

also, Israel provides them electricity and water.
--nostormo

Such amazing generosity and yet amazingly so much of the population is malnourished...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/red-cross-official-gaza-isn-t-experiencing-a-humanitarian-crisis-1.357268

easier said than done

― nostormo, Sunday, November 18, 2012 4:54 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There is so much vacant Florida real estate...

xp doesn't the IDF basically always deny that there is EVER a humanitarian crisis in Gaza? Sorry if I don't talk a quote from their website (regardless of the original source) terribly seriously.

Here is the women quoted in that article btw ACTUALLY talking about situation in Gaza barely a month after that nonsense pull quote was widely disseminated.

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/interview/2011/palestine-israel-interview-2011-05-19.htm

I'm not claiming that Gaza is a first world country. It has numerous issues and the quality of life is not high at all. I feel tremendous sympathy for innocent civilians stuck in a horrible situation. That said, Gaza shares a border with Egypt - a country that supposedly supports Gaza unequivocally run by a political organization with a tight relationship to Hamas. The Rafah border is wide open, in addition to hundreds of tunnels allowing both imports and exports through Gaza. Case in point, Hamas has been able to smuggle thousands of rockets into the country.

Oh definitely. I would have peaced out of there so long ago. But you know, some people play beach volleyball under those conditions.

― Judah Ben Ghazi (how's life), Saturday, 17 November 2012 23:54 (Yesterday) Permalink

Huge numbers of Israelis have been peaceing out for years. Unfortunately/somewhat ironically, it tends to be the more moderate or left israelis that leave for NY or berlin or we.

It's very common for soldiers to travel abroad for a long period after leaving the army.

Did you even read that article? Open Egypt border /= Gaza is on some path to anything approaching prosperity/economic independence.

Being as how you only found out 5 hours ago that there isn't a military occupation of Gaza (tho it seems there will be one shortly) maybe you don't have the most sophisticated understanding of the situation currently unfolding.

Just because you want to pretend that what's occurring in Gaza is not a military occupation /= it's not a military occupation (I think people who get their news from non-IDF propaganda tend to see it a little differently).

Maybe you'll discover that five hours from now, but somehow I'm thinking not.

I get my news almost exclusively from Haaretz. Is that IDF propaganda?

If the IDF is already occupying Gaza, how come Bibi keeps threatening to invade? Presumably the IDF is already inside? Or is this a non-traditional definition of military occupation?

Because as I understand the term, it means to occupy a territory with your military, not to unilaterally withdraw all civilians and soldiers from an area.

"I get my news almost exclusively from Haaretz. Is that IDF propaganda?"

You just linked to an article which was pure IDF propaganda reproduced (you know everyone knows that--all the news sources fucked up the Red Cross lady's name... oops.)

"Because as I understand the term, it means to occupy a territory with your military, not to unilaterally withdraw all civilians and soldiers from an area."

The IDF controls the borders, has designated areas as security zones and reserves the right to re-enter at will. That kinda undermines the "it's not a military occupation argument" in most people's minds. Whether or not they still have established bases is pretty immaterial.

If Hamas stopped firing rockets into Israel today, Israel would never send another soldier back into Gaza.

And this argument is a stupid distraction anyway. You way above were like "I don't get what Israel has done to undermine Gaza as a state". Your point that "well they don't have BASES and TROOPS there now" is a distraction to that question. Israel is doing/has done quite a bit obv.

xp they don't need to so again that's beside the point.

Your answer to what Israel has done to undermine Gaza as a state was that they are militarily occupying the area, except that they aren't unless you use the term to mean that they could militarily occupy the area if they decided to, which means they're also currently occupying Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and Iran.

The Red Cross interview with the women who the IDF cite approvingly as saying "it's not a humanitarian crisis" details a whole litany of ways the state/economy of Gaza is undermined and insecure. Your lame argument that "well there aren't bases there" (when I never said there were) has nothing to with this.

It is not a humanitarian crisis. The state/economy of Gaza is insecure. This is almost entirely because it is run by a fascistic theocratic organization known as Hamas. It is not because Israel is threatening to invade if rocket fire continues to rain down on southern Israel (and now in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem).

Also comparing Gaza to other sovereign countries is GTFO bullshit.

And you're the one who wrote, "it's a tiny strip of land militarily occupied by Israel." I never said anything about bases. I said that there isn't a single IDF soldier currently stationed in Gaza.

The people of Gaza held Democratic elections and voted for Hamas. Their lack of sovereignty is entirely made up of the blockade on Gaza waters and a shut border going into Israel, both policies made to try to stem the flow of weapons into a militant enemy's possession. Despite the blockade and closed border, the border into Egypt is wide open and Hamas has been able to bring numerous rockets into their country.

"This is almost entirely because it is run by a fascistic theocratic organization known as Hama."

Nope. Again that's the view of IDF propagandists, but this does not jibe with the assessment of most independent observers.

"It is not because Israel is threatening to invade if rocket fire continues to rain down on southern Israel (and now in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem)."

Again focusing on that distracts from the real ways in which Israel is deliberately hobbling Gaza's economy/government.

Tell me the real ways in which Israel is deliberately hobbling Gaza's economy/government so we can discuss them specifically. So far all you've offered is the non-existent military occupation.

Calling me an IDF propagandist doesn't make your points stronger, it just illustrates how little of a substantive argument you're actually making.

I think Gaza is one really big jail cell, not one really small sort-of-national-territory, and it's irrelevant whether the jailers are standing inside the cell or outside it.

I don't see much desire for peace from either side's leaders, and most days I wish they would all wink out of existence. POIT! I understand that there are thousands and thousands of innocents and that this is an uncharitable thing to think, but to the extent that this is all one Abrahamic religion butting heads with another, my main feeling is disgust.

I think Gaza is one really big jail cell

Gaza shares a border with Egypt.

I'll take my mildly substantive argument of your fantasy-land bs any day of the week.

"So far all you've offered is the non-existent military occupation."

Your reading comprehension continues to be poor. I posted an actual article (albeit written two years ago--but concurrent with the nonsense piece you posted--but not much has changed) which ACTUALLY details the real ways Israel is hobbling the economy of Gaza. I've cited numerous ways in which Israel exerts military control over Gaza (oh but it's just to stop the rockets haha). But you're myopically focused on your simple-minded and very IDF-led (sorry Charlie) definition of "military occupation".

"Gaza shares a border with Egypt."

So everything's dandy! They can get all the Hostess they want now! Oh wait there are still very tight controls about what comes in and out. Oh darn.

Very tight controls. Only Fajr-5 artillery rockets from Iran allowed to be imported. If you can bring one of these into Gaza, you have no excuse for not bringing in twinkies.

http://www.chicagoreader.com/binary/9082/1353108474-fajr-5.jpeg

While I'm sure Hamas is loving the rockets (and I think the IDF like Hamas having them) I think the issue is that's easier to bring a few of those in than a whole mess of building materials.

A few of those? THOUSANDS.

And so much damage they've caused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel -- imagine all the building materials they could bring in instead. And why does IDF like Hamas having them? Why would IDF want to engage in a costly, violent ground war in Gaza? What can they possibly gain from that?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-idf-prepares-for-ground-invasion-as-gaza-offensive-enters-fourth-day-1.478505

7:55 P.M. Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Israel's operation in Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years."

I'm hopeful that Egypt can work out a ceasefire before they send troops in.

I agree btw, Mordy, I don't think the rockets serve any conceivable legitimate purpose and one has to assume that their use is either (a) irrational lashing out or (b) strategic provocation.

However, I think that Israel's goal for years has been not to actually create a humanitarian crisis, but to make life in Gaza as difficult and unpleasant for people without actually being a humanitarian crisis as possible. Much as I think Israel has aimed to maintain as much control as possible without a literal occupation.

^^^ otm

I don't think they serve any purpose for Hamas, no. I think they're great for Israeli hardliners though as they continue to demonstrate that Hamas is not a willing peace partner and justify (to them) virtually any military response.

I don't see much desire for peace from either side's leaders, and most days I wish they would all wink out of existence. POIT! I understand that there are thousands and thousands of innocents and that this is an uncharitable thing to think, but to the extent that this is all one Abrahamic religion butting heads with another, my main feeling is disgust.

― WilliamC, Sunday, November 18, 2012 12:02 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"Much as I think Israel has aimed to maintain as much control as possible without a literal occupation"

true, but otherwise there will be suicide-bombers and more rockets toward Israel (been there done that)