Israel to World: "Suck It."

speaking of palestinian refuge camps...

wait is this true??

Israel is one of the few countries in the world where a large segment of the population believes Obama is a secret Muslim.

yeah he's kenyan iirc, it's a family thing

Abbas' big day at the UN today.

As the Lebanese news site Al Akhbar reported, Lieutenant Dratwa did find some support from fellow Israelis online. Miriam Young, a 20-year-old video blogger who recently moved to Israel from Los Angeles, wrote that, as an American, she was not insulted by the image.

this is great. "for some perspective, we talked to an idiot on the internet..."

actually it's even better, since (1) they asked a white American whether she was offended by an image that is racist toward black people, and (2) if you read a little further, it sounds like she's the guy's friend or at least acquaintance

haha yep

Good day for Palestinians.

Not for actual Palestinians. But a good day for "Palestinians."

Probably a little bad for everyone, especially if US goes through on threats to cut financial support to Abbas.

Well, we'll see about that. This could actually be a very good thing for the Palestinians, not just "Palestinians", in the not too distant future.

The General Assembly was the midwife to baby Israel herself, after all.

It took a lot more than a UN resolution to bring Israel into being. It's hard to see how this solves any of the current Palestinian impediments to statehood.

Of course it took a lot more Mordy, but it was nonetheless a crucial piece of the process.

(missing a comma there of course).

Besides allowing Fatah to take cases to the ICC, I just don't see what it gains them that they didn't have on Wednesday, and there is reason to be skeptical of what their access to the ICC means.

I do think it's interesting that Likkud is talking annexation of the West Bank. I've thought for a while now that withdrawing from Gaza was just laying the groundwork for one state solution that included the West Bank. (I'm obviously not the only person who has thought this was possible.) Dropping Gaza basically solved the demographic crisis. I don't know what this bodes for the future of Israel, but it is interesting that hardliners on both sides want a one state solution - and maybe they'll get one.

Well statehood is an abstract thing to begin with, and what every aspiring state craves is recognition as such - quite apart from any tangible, short-term benefits. Recognition is in and of itself the "gain". What further benefits (and repercussions) accrue, we shall see (certainly your skepticism re these is warranted).

I guess I believe that the UN* can consecrate an already existing State, but that without the things that sustain a State (monopoly on power, civic institutions, stable borders), the most the UN can do is create a photo op. I guess I think it's nice for anyone who feels a sense of pride because of this decision (I don't doubt that some people feel especially good about this - which gives it credit as a symbolic victory). But the Palestinians are still dealing with a separatist fundamentalist political organization running Gaza (Abbas still can't safely travel to Gaza), a demonstrated inability on behalf of its leaders to either function well enough to make a deal with Israel, or have the population legitimacy to make a deal with Israel, and indebtedness to political/regional/religious institutions that find Palestinian statehood in Gaza/West Bank intolerable. Not to mention in Israel a government that - to put it kindly - is not particularly interested in a vibrant Palestinian state. The UN vote might help with the population legitimacy issue (especially if it slides public sentiment back from Hamas over to Fatah it could - in a very optimistic POV - have a ripple effect in Gaza too), but I don't see how it helps with this other stuff at all.

*Or more reasonably, the collective international community which sometimes conveys legitimacy through the UN.

The UN has demonstrated that they don't have a problem with symbolic gestures, but outside a vague sense of world approval the world hasn't been willing to commit to many tangible improvements to the Palestinians. Part of this is definitely because the US supports Israel so completely (even Morsi realizes funding from the US is more important than fully opening Rafah). You could argue that Israel restrains itself because of world opinion and so e.g. Germany abstaining from vote because of settlements is an inducement for Israel to stop building them, but I think that's an assertion supporters and critics of Israel would question.

I can't disagree with much of the above, Mordy, but I'm not sure what alternative path you have in mind. I just think you have to start somewhere, and from the point of view of Abbas certainly, this was one place where you might get something that might get you someplace better, maybe. In dire, seemingly intractable situations, "maybe" is better than nothing.

Gotta sign off now!

I think that Abbas went to the UN because it had the appearance of progress w/out actually committing himself to the risky, dangerous stuff that might actually result in progress. Like Arafat, he isn't interested in ending up like Sadat, otherwise a deal would've already been made. Certainly it's a much stronger position to take whatever deal is on the table (the one under Olmert was particularly accommodating, who knows what Bibi will offer) and then negotiate after you actually have some of the things necessary to run a state. I don't think Abbas is serious. He might be expecting more from the ICC than he will probably get, and maybe he thinks it will dissuade some of the settlements. That might actually be the play here - Likkud wants to make one state fait accompli re: facts on the ground and Abbas probably thinks the best he can do is slow things down. If Israel is even 10% more cautious about building settlements because of this Abbas might take that a win. I don't think it's a viable longterm strategy though. The things that will work, I don't think Abbas is willing to do.

If Israel is even 10% more cautious about building settlements because of this Abbas

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/30/15573067-us-slams-israels-decision-to-expand-settlements

You really have your finger on Bibi's pulse.

Juan Cole:

Many European countries have elevated the Palestine mission in their capitals to the status of full embassy. Palestine’s new status as UN observer state could well become a basis for it being given further embassies in Europe. Being an embassy rather than a mission strengthens the legal status of Palestine, including in national courts and EU tribunals.

Israel’s economy is deeply dependent on its relationship to Europe, the largest single source of imports into Israel and the second-largest market for exports (after the United States). European investment in Israel is also significant, as are various agreements giving Israel access to European technological advances and promoting scientific and technological exchange.

The European Union imports 15 times more goods from Israeli setter enterprises in the Occupied West Bank than from the Palestinians themselves. Europe is therefore a major, hidden support for Israeli crimes against the Palestinians.

http://www.juancole.com/2012/11/palestinian-legal-strategy-against-israel-the-real-prize-is-europe.html

You really have your finger on Bibi's pulse.

I hope you mean that sincerely since I also wrote:

I do think it's interesting that Likkud is talking annexation of the West Bank. I've thought for a while now that withdrawing from Gaza was just laying the groundwork for one state solution that included the West Bank. (I'm obviously not the only person who has thought this was possible.) Dropping Gaza basically solved the demographic crisis. I don't know what this bodes for the future of Israel, but it is interesting that hardliners on both sides want a one state solution - and maybe they'll get one.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/30/footballers-u21-european-championship-israel

The NYT:

A senior Israeli official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said on Friday that the decision was made late Thursday night to move forward on “preliminary zoning and planning preparations” for housing units in E1, which would connect the large settlement of Maale Adumim to Jerusalem and therefore make it impossible to connect the Palestinian cities of Ramallah and Bethlehem to Palestinian neighborhoods of East Jerusalem. Israel also authorized the construction of 3,000 housing units in other parts of East Jerusalem and the West Bank, the official said... Hagit Ofran, who runs the Settlement Watch project of Peace Now, called E1 a “deal breaker for the two-state solution” and denounced the decision as “disastrous.”

Ofran is being hyperbolic (it only makes a two-state solution with a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem impossible), but he's right that this changes the terms of negotiation. Bibi is taking East Jerusalem off the table.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/01/world/middleeast/israel-moves-to-expand-settlements-in-east-jerusalem.html

classy

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/report-hamas-leader-meshal-to-visit-gaza-for-first-time-1.481777

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/dec/06/sinai-uprising-bedouin/

http://honestreporting.com/despite-the-hype-e1-doesnt-cut-west-bank-in-two/

Thanks for the link. Though I must say, there map is somewhat misleading as well, isn't it? It seemingly doesn't include some other settlements further east of Maale Adumin, as can be seen on the other map further down, therefore overstating the amount of space for the palestinian state. Or am I looking at it wrong?

*their instead of there.

Wait, I suck at geography, but I thought the issue had somehow to do with contiguity with East Jerusalem, as Mordy's quotes a few posts up indicate?

Yeah - I think people are confused about what the construction means. Unrelated, but important:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/12/israel-asked-jordan-for-approval-to-bomb-syrian-wmd-sites/265818/

If the E-1 plan is fully implemented Palestinians could, theoretically, travel between the northern and southern West Bank via a road – that at this time does not exist – through the Judean desert, looping around the Ma'ale Adumim bloc and the expanded area of Jerusalem whose outskirts would stretch nearly to Jericho. There have also been suggestions for an alternate road route for Palestinians running north-south between Ma'ale Adumim and Jerusalem that uses overpasses and tunnels to bypass Israeli built-up areas (which already exists to some extent).[1] However, the Palestinians have rejected Israeli offers to complete such a road.[9]

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/stevie-wonder-drops-out-of-benefit-for-israeli-soldiers/

What took him so long? I don't endorse a full cultural boycott but playing for the IDF?

was bummed when someone recently informed me that all those sodastream seltzer water maker things are made by illegal Israeli settlers

(tbf I haven't independently confirmed this)

pesach benson is a great name

a pesach of a name

maybe we need a rolling middle east thread. anyway:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/04/us-egypt-politics-idUSBRE8B30GP20121204

perhaps this will dispel previous "confusion" about where Chomsky stands.

The cease-fire agreement stated that the measures to implement the end of the siege and the targeting of residents in border areas “shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.” There is no sign of steps in this direction. Nor is there any indication of US-Israeli willingness to rescind their policy of separating Gaza from the West Bank in violation of the Oslo Accords, to end the illegal settlement and development programs in the West Bank designed to undermine a political settlement, or in any other way to abandon the rejectionism of the past decades.

http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2012-12-01/noam-chomsky-palestine-2012-gaza-and-the-un-resolution/

The Demographic Success of Israel’s Settlement Project

http://www.counterpunch.org/wp-content/dropzone/2012/12/Cohen-Gordon-graph6.jpg

7.7 children per Ultra-Orthodox woman in the West Bank. !!!!!!!

For comparison, the top 3 countries by fertility rate are Niger (7.19), Guinea-Bissau (7.07), and Afghanistan (7.07).

http://tentofabraham.wordpress.com/2012/12/05/hasidic-jew-heads-up-one-of-the-most-progressive-health-ministries-in-the-world-2-videos/

Nor is there any indication of US-Israeli willingness to rescind their policy of separating Gaza from the West Bank in violation of the Oslo Accords

I guess Chomsky didn't hear about the civil war of 2007 that created two Palestinian "leaderships" (one of whom rejects the Oslo Accords completely) who hate each other's guts and who won't be reconciling during any of our lifetimes. But other than that, Gaza and the West Bank are two completely harmonious units, who could even think about dealing with them separately?

It's Chomsky, so why do I even bother wasting time on this crap?

Haha so they are separating them for their own good. Nice.

They separated themselves, if it wasn't clear enough for you.

that story is a little more complicated than "they separated themselves"

They separated themselves, if it wasn't clear enough for you.
--NoTimeBeforeTime

*cough cough* bullshit.