I should come clean and say my ultimate goal is to not let another interesting linguistics thread disappear.
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 25 February 2013 00:32 (eleven years ago) link
OK, here is the thing that prompted the creation of this thread, long in gestation, this weekend. I still keep wondering whether I am missing something, if I have formulated the problem correctly or if it really works. Or if it really works, is it anti-climactic, so what?. So, my theory, which is mine is that there is a certain chess piece, which moves diagonally on one specified shade of light or dark throughout the entire game which is called
En: the bishopFr: le fouDe: der LäuferEs: el alfil
The bishop, the fool, the runner, and (from the Persian) the elephant rider(!?).
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 00:34 (eleven years ago) link
fh, I kind of thought that's what you meant but I guess is should have specified, and I think it is fair to specify, that is OK if a cognate exists, as long as it is not a common word for the exact same thing.
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 00:35 (eleven years ago) link
OK, alfil is just an elephant.
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 00:42 (eleven years ago) link
But still.
(It's that "the" "the" thing that happens when Spanish and Arabic mix)
It's a different thing then the rest, it is not a name of an animal, like tipsy mothra mentioned, which makes it that much more amazing that it didn't get more standardized.
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 00:44 (eleven years ago) link
Your move, ILX.
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 00:46 (eleven years ago) link
Shark is actually pretty disparate... German and Icelandic words for shark are cognates (Haifisch and hákarl), but I can't chase down much else!
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 25 February 2013 00:48 (eleven years ago) link
you really gonna make me google "non-cognate" on a sunday afternoon?― scott seward, Sunday, February 24, 2013 2:40 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalinklittle-known original line in the Rascals' "Groovin'".― Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Sunday, February 24, 2013 3:16 PM (4 hours ago)
― scott seward, Sunday, February 24, 2013 2:40 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
little-known original line in the Rascals' "Groovin'".
― Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Sunday, February 24, 2013 3:16 PM (4 hours ago)
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 00:55 (eleven years ago) link
Songs this thread is making me think ofhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zgB1Jfpjdw
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 00:57 (eleven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYk1iVEezAg
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 00:59 (eleven years ago) link
^ YES
― marc robot (seandalai), Monday, 25 February 2013 01:01 (eleven years ago) link
Holy Haifisch, Fledermausmensch, I never knew this version existed:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcnEur8lrXc
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 01:03 (eleven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QXJ3OXWaOY(You've got to wait through some Broadway ad)
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 01:11 (eleven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpe_KHDEfgwDO U SEE?
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 01:15 (eleven years ago) link
I thought this would work:
English: hedgehogFrench: hérissonItalian: riccioGerman: igel
But no. Looking at the Spanish (erizo) made me realise I'd overlooked the connection between hérisson and riccio.
Still interesting, though.
― emil.y, Monday, 25 February 2013 01:21 (eleven years ago) link
hedgehogs are excellent
― hey, corsano's no pussy, dude (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Monday, 25 February 2013 01:25 (eleven years ago) link
the near-misses like hedgehog and squirrel are still awesome.
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 01:26 (eleven years ago) link
"computer" in icelandic is "tölva" which apparently comes from the Old Norse word for their compass-like unit, talwôn.
― þjóðaratkvæðagreiðsla (clouds), Monday, 25 February 2013 01:41 (eleven years ago) link
Another miss here, but three distinct strands of naming.
English: buttercupGerman: Butterblume
French: bouton d'orSpanish: botón de oro
Italian: ranuncolo
Probably not worth posting any more of the three-stranders, as there will be shedloads out there.
Speaking of which (and this is via google translate, so I'm aware there may be synonymous cognates that just haven't come up)...
English: shedFrench: hangar (not counting as a similar cognate because hangars are pretty different to sheds, right? Or is this cheating?)German: SchuppenSpanish: cobertizoItalian: capannone
― emil.y, Monday, 25 February 2013 01:42 (eleven years ago) link
Are there any resources in English that let you trace foreign etymology, like etymonline?
― emil.y, Monday, 25 February 2013 01:51 (eleven years ago) link
Dunno. I hope fh can help us.
What about this kind of thing:En: the honeysuckleEs: la madreselvaFr: le chèvrefeuilleDe: das Geißblatt
So here we have the Spanish being the wonderful "mother (of the) jungle" and both the German and the French meaning "goat leaf," with the constituent parts for "goat" and "leaf" being unrelated.
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 02:01 (eleven years ago) link
The word for it in Czech is pretty cool:http://www.omniglot.com/blog/?p=3363
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 02:03 (eleven years ago) link
Welsh too, on that same page.
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 02:04 (eleven years ago) link
Wiktionary is pretty good for English web sites with foreign etymologies, emily.
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 25 February 2013 02:06 (eleven years ago) link
Shed has some hidden cognates... Italian capannone = Spanish cabana, and Spanish cobertizo = English cover, for example. Badger is another where they look quite disparate but turn to be all pretty much from the same origin!
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 25 February 2013 02:13 (eleven years ago) link
(not counting as a similar cognate because hangars are pretty different to sheds, right? Or is this cheating?)
That's a pretty deep question, and it's why I was harping on the fact that cognates have similar origins, not meanings. If you start with an English word like shed, you've got to also consider similar English words such as hut, hide, cover, blind, lean-to, shelter, even stuff like gazebo or house.
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 25 February 2013 02:16 (eleven years ago) link
But not for this game, surely? Those are far too wide. It's not about "does this word have a cognate in English/French/Spanish/German?" but "does this thing have an expression that is a cognate in English/French/Spanish/German?" The reason why I was unsure about hangar is that you can make a case that a hangar is synonymous with shed (it's just a big one), whereas something like "cover" is not synonymous. Metonymy, meronymy, etc etc, those things change language and give us interesting branches. Just because 'chevalier' is from the same root as 'cheval', it doesn't mean we discount 'horse'.
― emil.y, Monday, 25 February 2013 02:38 (eleven years ago) link
Wait, the second question isn't even phrased right, I don't think. How about "Does this thing have a pan-language consistent cognate from whence it draws its name?"
― emil.y, Monday, 25 February 2013 02:40 (eleven years ago) link
i think its funny that almost every language - european language - uses a variation of maiz for the word corn except english. even the dutch and german is from maiz and the word corn comes from germany (word for seed).
― scott seward, Monday, 25 February 2013 02:50 (eleven years ago) link
not funny ha ha, but i'd never really thought about it.
― scott seward, Monday, 25 February 2013 02:51 (eleven years ago) link
I think your formulation is pretty close, emil.y.
Just investigated En: the hummingbird Sp: El picaflor Pt: o beija-flor
which in most other languages seems to take more or less the scientific name 'colibri.'
So this is what we kind of expect: two interesting colorful distinct words, but then a variant of one of those and then the whole thing dead-ends in the scientific name. And this is why it is kind of interesting that the winners in this thread were able to hold on for so long and not get absorbed into another word. Is it only wishful thinking on our part or are they something more special and unique than mere statistical outliers?
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 03:11 (eleven years ago) link
"Does this thing have a pan-language consistent cognate from whence it draws its name?"
Well, take shed as an example. What are the essential properties of a shed for English speakers? Do those properties correspond exactly with the properties of things you have chosen from other languages as equivalents of shed? You can match some aspects, especially if you've specified a particular context, but often you'll end up with a thing in Spanish or German that has incomplete (but sufficient) shedness, or multiple things that satisfy your criteria for shedness. Some of these things will have cognates, and some will not. What, for example, is difference between the words cobertizo, tinglado, and galpón? They all mean shed in Spanish, but all three have separate etymologies.
Maybe that sounds philosophical, but in translation work or etymological research it's a concrete problem. If we're starting from an English thing, we probably want to consider a lot of synonyms in our search for cognates. And the more languages we are searching across, the more abstract that thing is going to get.
I'd search this way: find a common thing where English uses a Celtic word, German uses a Germanic one, Spanish uses something from Arabic, French something from Latin, and Italian something from Greek or even Turkish.
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 25 February 2013 03:36 (eleven years ago) link
What are the essential properties of a shed for English speakers? Do those properties correspond exactly with the properties of things you have chosen from other languages as equivalents of shed?
See, I'm very interested in this, and it informs my choices and discussion here, I just don't follow you all the way into widening the synonyms until they're no longer synonyms. My boundaries are blurry, I'll accept, but it's a case of you know a shed when you see one, and you know when a shed is no longer a shed.
Having said that, of course your contributions are very interesting! I just think trying to discount stuff ruins the game, whereas I accept fully that discounting stuff is essential to real linguistic work.
― emil.y, Monday, 25 February 2013 03:44 (eleven years ago) link
English brogue (from Irish)Spanish dialecto (from Ancient Greek)French patois (from Old Frnech paw/foot)German Mundart (from Old High German)Italian vernacolo (from Latin domestic/home-born slave)
...this is of course cheating big-time, because dialect and vernacular are present in English, Spanish, French, and Italian, while brogue is a little over-specific. Still!
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 25 February 2013 03:50 (eleven years ago) link
You've got a good chance of finding non-cognate English and German words with similar meaning due to English wandering quite far, but Spanish/French/Italian is always going to present a big danger... they're almost always related!
That said...English glassesSpanish anteojosFrench lunettesGerman BrilleItalian occhiali
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 25 February 2013 03:59 (eleven years ago) link
I guess you could sub in Spanish gafas, since ojo and occhi are cognates.
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 25 February 2013 04:08 (eleven years ago) link
How do you people even do this?
― Margaret Vegemite Sanger (Leee), Monday, 25 February 2013 04:11 (eleven years ago) link
That's why I made Italian optional to give us a fighting chance with the Romance languages. Otherwise occhiali and anteojos would have got you. Although you could have swapped in gafas. (xp!)
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 04:13 (eleven years ago) link
Oh, Wiktionary is a big grip, xpost to myself.
― Liz Phair Dinkum (Leee), Monday, 25 February 2013 04:22 (eleven years ago) link
Uh, help, not grip.
This is the best thread, very Language Log / Hat.
wood bois (French)legno (Italian)madera (Spanish)Holz (German)
― Plasmon, Monday, 25 February 2013 04:24 (eleven years ago) link
En: the legFr: la jambeSp: la piernaGe: das Bein
Good thing Italian optional becauseIt: la gamba
Possible spoiler or marrer of perfection:Latin word "perna" root of "la pierna" looks like it might be related to Latin word "pes" source of French word for foot "le pied"Fact that "das Bein" etymologically related to the English word "bone," or so Ezekiel says.
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 04:40 (eleven years ago) link
Speaking of logs:English logFrench rondinSpanish leñoItalian ceppoGerman Baumstamm (or... Log)
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 25 February 2013 04:45 (eleven years ago) link
you figure something like "kneecap" could have shaken out a lot of different ways.
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 25 February 2013 04:47 (eleven years ago) link
perna in Latin probably maps out to peroneal in English (Wikipedia says via Greek perone), no reason it should have anything to do with pied (Latin pes), anatomically easily distinguishable.
― Plasmon, Monday, 25 February 2013 04:49 (eleven years ago) link
How do you people even do this?― Margaret Vegemite Sanger (Leee), Sunday, February 24, 2013 11:11 PM (29 minutes ago)
― Margaret Vegemite Sanger (Leee), Sunday, February 24, 2013 11:11 PM (29 minutes ago)
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 04:49 (eleven years ago) link
fh, I am starting to suspect you were coming up with strict rules as a way of stalling until you came up with some of your own;)
― Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 25 February 2013 04:51 (eleven years ago) link
I looked for log b/c of mentioning Language Log. Google Translate has Log way more common than Baumstann in German.
― Plasmon, Monday, 25 February 2013 04:53 (eleven years ago) link