Jacques Tati/Play Time

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Exactly?

Cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 22:43 (twenty years ago) link

The more original an artist is, the more he runs the risk of being seen as 'wrong about life'. And if you don't agree with his model of life, no matter how persuasive a Tati or a Tarkovsky is, you'll just find it 'preachy'. We both probably saw a lot of TV before we saw the work of either Mr T. TV is just as didactic and preachy as any art film about its -- essentially mediocre -- worldview. But by dint of repetition it makes its presumptions about life transparent. When we eventually see the work of some film-maker with a radically different worldview from the TV or Hollywood worldview -- and I'm thinking of a Straub rather than even a Godard, who often spoofs Hollywood and therefore shares some of its presuppositions, even while attacking them -- we're likely either to be smitten or appalled. I went to see Tarkovsky's 'Mirror' three times the week it came out in Scotland. Nothing I'd ever seen on a screen even came near its... spirituality. But that extreme attraction could just as well have been repulsion, for almost the same reasons. I might have said, precisely because I'd never seen anything like that before, 'he is wrong about life'. Instead I said something like 'Everything I know is wrong, but this is right'.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 September 2003 00:44 (twenty years ago) link

To give a tiny example (of 'Mirror's originality, and its status as 'textural' in a way that TV and Hollywood aren't), there's a scene where a boy watches the slow disappearance of a ring of condensation from a wooden table where a hot cup has been standing. It's something I'd seen in life, but never in a film. Very simple, very real, rather microscopic, pretty 'undramatic'. And yet a very powerful, poetic, emotive symbol of ghostly disappearance.

The scene in Playtime with Hulot trying out on weirdly-reacting soft chairs in a pristine vitrine-like corporate lobby is similar. It's not just a Mr Bean fart joke, it's a study of the texture of the chairs themselves and a comment on the incompatibility between Modernist design and the human form, between the human and the corporate scale... And it's an elegant rumination on the impossibility of elegance.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 September 2003 00:57 (twenty years ago) link

OK, I'm thinking. I think you've misunderstood what I meant but I realise that that is no small fault of my own.

Cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 4 September 2003 23:03 (twenty years ago) link

I saw 'monsieur hulot's holiday' tonight. it were right funny.

RJG (RJG), Thursday, 4 September 2003 23:14 (twenty years ago) link

Is Hulot a good / interesting / original character?

Cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 6 September 2003 18:21 (twenty years ago) link

Hulot is a cypher! He's as one-dimensional as Charlie Chaplin! I don't know how you'd rate him as a character, but he's a great piece of graphic design!

Momus (Momus), Saturday, 6 September 2003 18:24 (twenty years ago) link

Cozen since you walked out, how would you judge? You missed the ending sequence with Hulot's touching, fumbling interaction with the American tourist.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 6 September 2003 19:37 (twenty years ago) link

I wouldn't. I was asking you. Since I walked out.

David. (Cozen), Saturday, 6 September 2003 19:40 (twenty years ago) link

Oh ok, sorry ... I thought you were impugning his value..

Yes, I do find him a sympathetic character.. As I say, that end sequence is really poignant. His attempts to communicate with and be chivalrous toward this woman as they walk through the city in the morning.. Knowing the possibility of meaningful interaction is remote, that she is soon to depart, but making the attempt ... he buys her a gift .. I don't know. The way they sort of randomly ended up in each other's company in the early morning after the nightlong of revelry at the restaurant.. It's touchingly romantic and very sad at the same time.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 6 September 2003 19:54 (twenty years ago) link

**spoilers**


have you noticed the moment where she leans on his shoulder to fix her shoe (??) and he notices she's wearing a wedding ring?

amateurist (amateurist), Saturday, 6 September 2003 21:24 (twenty years ago) link

also whenever i heard dubya speak i think of the boorish texan (?) magnate making a ruckus in the restaurant.

amateurist (amateurist), Saturday, 6 September 2003 21:25 (twenty years ago) link

If you want to see a superior, more enjoyable example of some of the things that I took from Playtime you may want to check out (currently in the cinemas) Belleville Rendez-vous. (Tellingly spotted in the back of one frame: a poster for Le Vacancies de Mr. Hulot. I wasn't sure if this told of 'influence' or 'respect' though.)

David. (Cozen), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 16:07 (twenty years ago) link

three months pass...
haha wow i love love loved 'jour de fete'.

cozen¡ (Cozen), Monday, 29 December 2003 22:48 (twenty years ago) link

i) i couldn't really understand what was meant by the american speed & efficiency metaphor but i got the feeling it was only lightly anti-american;
ii) did momus say tati didn't like cars? ha that scene with the car rampaging through the town was a giveaway;
iii) such delicately engineered comedy;
iv) haha the jokes! (cf. iii)
v) i thought hulot was a completely silent character: the 'revelation' that he did talk but eventually doesn't (cf. playtime) makes 'playtime' even more bleak, i think. i mean, it's not that he is taciturn and gloomy because he plainly isn't in 'playtime', it's just that perhaps hulot (Hulot) doesn't have anything to say for (or in or to) this new world;
vi) the 'slapstick' here is so gently rendered as to be completely different from something like, say, 'bottom' or, say, spinal tap? again i'm not exactly sure what it 'means' per se, but;
vii) the nighttime shots were so beautiful;
viii) tati shot 'jour de fete' on two cameras (black and white & colour): before the picture there's an introduction which explains why: there's a shot of tati behind his two cameras, one by the side of the other: what ws made must have been essentially two different films then! i mean, besides the colour issue;
ix) i like the idea of a town that goes to bed together and rises together
x) a pet goat! on a leash!!
xi) the ending, the most 'violent', say, of all the slapstick (god i hate to keep using that word) set-pieces wsn't that funny, in fact it was quite sad: hammered home i thk in the following scene with hulot's little parcel of bathos: 'i think i got a bit excited' :(

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 00:43 (twenty years ago) link

ia) i suspect this wasn't really a 'metaphor' actually: but it felt like this was being used to say what tati ws trying to say, which i cdn't quite decode.

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 00:44 (twenty years ago) link

xia) the ending being the bit where he's thrown into the river by his 'american rapidity' on his bicycle.

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 00:46 (twenty years ago) link

hehe playtime tomorrow.

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 02:34 (twenty years ago) link

va) oh shit, it's francois in 'jour de fete' rather than hulot, possibly the point still stands.

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 02:47 (twenty years ago) link

yeah, hulot was introduced with the next film. it's a bit amazing to me, great tati fan that i am, that the hulot character seized the public imagination all over the world with basically just two movies in which he barely talks. and even his personality is muted--we know he's careless and a bit oblivious, but also considerate and a little shy, but that's nearly all. the films are more about their environment than the central character, or indeed character at all, although "jour de fete" is a less pure example of this because francois the postman is pretty colorful.

my favorite moment (maybe?) in "jour de fete" is when the buzzing bee leaves francois to bother the farmer on a hill, but there's no bee, there's just a buzzing noise which changes pitches to indicate where and who he's bothering. a good example of tati's use of sound cues to replace visual cues and his use of the whole screen/sound world.

so you saw the color version? apparently tati's daughter--she oversaw the restoration, and was a filmmaker herself--used one of her father's revised soundtracks for the film (maybe from the 60s?) instead of the original, which angered some people. i don't know enough about it to know if she made the right decision; maybe the 1948 soundtrack was a mess when it came time to restore the film in 1994. but the color is definitely worth it. i was surprised when i saw it how muted and subtle were the colors considering the technology being used. certainly they don't feel like the kind of oversaturated color being used in some hollywood productions at that time. worth nothing too is that the original "black and white" version included some stray objects and bits of decor stencilled in various colors for effect. something that has its own beauty, so it's worth seeing "both" versions (both is in quotes because it seems like there's actually 100 versions of this film).

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 08:58 (twenty years ago) link

incidentally cozen one of my bosses thinks "jour de fete" and "mr hulot's holiday" are tati's best films and he went downhill after that. that's not really such a minority opinion in fact; "playtime" remains a cult film, "parade" even more so. ("traffic" has its partisans but they are few are far between. i haven't managed to see it because the only video i've found is cropped and dubbed into english.)

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 09:00 (twenty years ago) link

oh yes! brilliant, just brilliant. brilliant!

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 17:51 (twenty years ago) link

'playtime', that is.

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 17:51 (twenty years ago) link

i) the shot of the two families, hulot & co. sitting down to watch a movie: the old woman, in the other house, is so sad: it reminded me of this time i sat and watched an old woman, say 60, in mcdonalds on argyle st. sit and eat her big mac, intermittently sucking in some cola, the fragile parcel of bones in her hand, her low set eyes, mistakable for sadness: i always thought it impossibly sad that old people don't fit in the future;
ii) haha that scene where hulot sees giffard across the way in another building when actually it's giffard's reflection in the window! 'sometimes we see a thing's light and not the thing itself' :-o
iii) those intricately designed sets painted uniform in what burnside calls 'the grey of nearness'!!!
iv) i liked alot the scene where the loud american asks for the exact figures fr his accounts: the high mounted camera is just perfect for the required all-around survey: hulot's hat bobbing up and down in the distance, the man himself obscured;
v) another of my favourite scenes: hulot waits in the waiting room, pacing the boards, squeaking, testing the chairs: but this we're not allowed to hear cs tati let's the road sounds high in the mix, then cuts to the sound inside the waiting room briefly, and away again.
vi) tativille! (cf. iii)
vii) apparently it cost anywhere between 5 and 12 million francs. and one day in a gust of bad luck, wind caused almost 1 million francs worth of damage to the almost finished set :( tati eventually using his own money (debts to friends, his future inheritance) to make the costs;
viii) wow.

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 19:19 (twenty years ago) link

ix) haha VOLTE-FACE

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 19:21 (twenty years ago) link

x) now, i'm going to go watch 'celine and julie go boating' after not watching 'eraserhead' last night.

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 19:22 (twenty years ago) link

haha that scene where hulot sees giffard across the way in another building when actually it's giffard's reflection in the window!

haha yeah that's great! my mind explodes at the thought of how hard that shot must have been to set up.

i like the way tati (ha! i almost typed "godard"! well it IS sort of similar to "week-end") finds select mometnts--literally moments, not even entire shots sometimes--to isolate hulot and the young american tourist, so that its clear they've caught each other's eye somehow but have little time or space to go any further in the midst of the restaurant and other chaos.

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 19:31 (twenty years ago) link

my mind explodes at the thought of how hard that shot must have been to set up.

yeh, similarly with the sequence when the two waiters are carrying out the chef mannequin so that it looks on-screen like they're carrying an actual body.

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 19:35 (twenty years ago) link

there are some hilarious gags with door handles too. the one--very brief--where the buy bends down and his head is such that it looks like he has sprouted horns. and of course the gag where the door shatters but the doorman continues to move the door handle to keep up appearances. everytime i walk past a shattered glass door (it happens sometimes) i look arond for a handle to see if i can perform that gag on my own.

as for "jour de fete's" antiamericanism, i think it's more of an ambivalence, lampooning both the american's obsession with efficiency and the french's eagerness and perhaps inability to adapt quickly.

in "playtime" it's not necessarily antiamericanism (though the figure of the rich texan guy is definitely a silly, even a bit affectionate, stab--but his lines were cowritten with art buckwald) as much as a lampoon of the general tendency of modernist urban architecture (perhaps in its way the ultimate symbol of corporate consolidation and power) to turn every place into the same place. this is literalized in those hilarious travel posters in the lobby, where you have "the alps" with a skiier flying past a skyscraper identical to the one tati is walking around in.

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 19:37 (twenty years ago) link


It will be interesting to see if this threads gets more than 20 ans amt.

haha! though granted a good half of them are mine...

amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 19:44 (twenty years ago) link

the terrorists have lost!

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 19:44 (twenty years ago) link

(i liked this snippet upthread from ess kay: 'best use of glass ever'.)

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 19:51 (twenty years ago) link

i still think that this is quite a bleak film albeit adequately sweetened.

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 19:54 (twenty years ago) link

momus, do you think 'playtime' is bleak in any way?

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 23:06 (twenty years ago) link

Considering Playtime damn near became my favorite film the first time I saw it some two years ago (though I should confess that I routinely declare new films among the best 10 I've ever seen before they eventually settle into less lofty categories), I'm surprised I haven't made an effort to see any of Tati's other films. Maybe I too easily buy the notion that it's both the film that cemented and ended his career as a major auteur. Well, I'll catch Mon Oncle pretty soon at any rate.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 31 December 2003 06:50 (twenty years ago) link

i love this tati quote: "when people don't know each other they follow right angles; when they are intimate they go in curves."

and this by colette, on tati's sport mimes: "he is both the player and the ball, the football and the goalkeeper, the boxer and his opponent, the bicycle and its rider. he makes you see invisible partners, and objects in his empty hands. he plays on your imagination with the talent of a great artist... when jacques tati imitates horse and rider, paris sees a mythological creature come to life, the centaur."

cozen¡ (Cozen), Thursday, 1 January 2004 23:11 (twenty years ago) link

(sorry to go on).

cozen¡ (Cozen), Thursday, 1 January 2004 23:12 (twenty years ago) link

I've only seen Mon oncle. I wanted to laugh more than I did. Huggermugger in corners. I wish made things would not break but weather.

The day after Christmas at my aunt's house, I had my niece on my lap and she was playing with the arm of the chair, which was made of strips of leather on a metal frame. The ends of the arms were looped to slide over the frame but were not secured, so it fell off after a while.

Early in development, as young infants grasp, suck, and manipulate objects, they learn something of the objects' affordances for action (Gibson, 1979). This is direct individual learning, and it may sometimes be supplemented by emulation learning in which the child discovers new affordances of objects by seeing them do thing she did not know they could do. But the tools and artifacts of a culture have another dimension -- what Cole (1996) calls the "ideal" dimension -- that produce another set of affordances for anyone with the appropriate kinds of social-cognitive and social learning skills. As human children observe other people using cultural tools and artifacts, they often engage in the process of imitative learning in which they attempt to place themselves in the "intentional space" of the user -- discerning the user's goal, what she is using the artifact "for." By engaging in this imitative learning, the child joins the other person in affirming what "we" use this object "for": we use hammers for hammering and pencils for writing. After she has engaged in such a process the child comes to see some cultural objects and artifacts as having, in addition to their natural sensory-motor affordances, another set of what we might call intentional affordances based on her understanding of the intentional relations that other persons have with that object or artifact -- that is, the intentional relations that other persons have to the world through that artifact (Tomasello, 1999a). -- Tomasello, The Cultural Origins of Human Cognition, pp. 84-85

Maybe Tati's humor is not purely visual because one has to have the intentional affordances of artifacts in the back of one's mind to appreciate the (re)discovery of their natural affordances. Modernist design is good for contrasting these because form is based upon an idealized function.

there's a scene where a boy watches the slow disappearance of a ring of condensation from a wooden table where a hot cup has been standing. It's something I'd seen in life, but never in a film. Very simple, very real, rather microscopic, pretty 'undramatic'. And yet a very powerful, poetic, emotive symbol of ghostly disappearance.

Symbolic representation is supposed to be built upon sensorimotor representation, but I suppose a lot of culturally coded representation gets in the way of (or preempts) individual discovery. I wonder how obvious this stuff is. On the one hand it has to be coded; on the other, it has to be discovered.

youn, Saturday, 3 January 2004 08:14 (twenty years ago) link

that notion of children observing others in an effort to discern the intentional affordance of an object does really rhyme with the scene in "play time" where tati is in the waiting room...

amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 3 January 2004 16:38 (twenty years ago) link

six months pass...
This is playing the Castro Theatre in San Francisco for the next week. I'm going on Sunday (I think). I know absolutely next to nothing about it.

kyle (akmonday), Friday, 16 July 2004 20:38 (nineteen years ago) link

this thread, w. the exception of my contributions probably, is really good. esp. momus' & amst's bantering.

cºzen (Cozen), Friday, 16 July 2004 20:42 (nineteen years ago) link

worth reading through to learn something abt the film, I guess, is what I mean.

cºzen (Cozen), Friday, 16 July 2004 20:42 (nineteen years ago) link

youn's post was really interesting

amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 16 July 2004 21:05 (nineteen years ago) link

my friend who just saw it said it was like "spending the night with a bunch of drunk people". This doesn't make much sense to me. So my question now is: is it enjoyable? Arty and pretentious and I can deal with.

kyle (akmonday), Saturday, 17 July 2004 15:25 (nineteen years ago) link

i dunno, go see it for yourself and report back here.

amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 17 July 2004 20:46 (nineteen years ago) link

one month passes...
Play Time is showing at the Music Box Theater in Chicago this week. I am going to try and convince Sarah to go see it with me. Cheer me on.

n.a. (Nick A.), Friday, 27 August 2004 14:14 (nineteen years ago) link

haha... I had the same problem, but Jessa finally broke. We're going tonight. I'll let you know how the picture and sound are... it's a restored print -- 70mm! DTS!

Harold Media (kenan), Friday, 27 August 2004 14:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Gorgonzola said she'd rather throw me out of the house than sit through it with me, so now I'm living under an umbrella in a thicket-parked pram. Never mind, this baby has old-style spot-welded axles, rock solid! If I crane my neck a bit I can see what they're showing at the drive-in. The postman knows me by now and says hello.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 27 August 2004 15:06 (nineteen years ago) link

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing this twice. Tonight I'm commited to the girl, but maybe later this weekend or this week we could gather as ILXors and be big film geeks?

Harold Media (kenan), Friday, 27 August 2004 15:07 (nineteen years ago) link

hope it plays for more than one week. they only have 70mm projection in the big theater, which means either (a) after a week it'll disappear or (b) it'll stay in the big theater for two or more weeks. i have plans to see it with a friend.

amateur!!st, Friday, 27 August 2004 15:33 (nineteen years ago) link

and I assume the screen wasn't mammoth, which is a disadvantage

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 12:46 (four years ago) link

I've got an auditorium, so the projector screen is wall-sized.

recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 12:48 (four years ago) link

oh that's good

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 14:10 (four years ago) link

four years pass...

saw M Hulot's Holiday for the first(!) time the other night. loved it. maybe my favorite type of movie, just gently whimsical and absurd, a repetitive jazz score which plays off the environs perfectly, a gently sad ending as he pauses and then just decides to get in his car and head off.

i was blown away by the fact that much of the boat/shark gag was filmed in 1978(!!)

omar little, Tuesday, 26 September 2023 19:17 (eight months ago) link

Had no idea there were two versions! I guess that scene is a Jaws reference then?

abandoned luncheonmeat (Matt #2), Tuesday, 26 September 2023 19:24 (eight months ago) link

the scene i can't get enough of is when he's painting his boat and the can of paint keeps floating around to the other side of the boat and he never even clocks it's moved but somehow always puts his paintbrush down exactly where it's floated to in order to load up with more paint, just the best

Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 26 September 2023 21:15 (eight months ago) link


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