ok what the fuck is happening in ukraine

And what is England/Europe/the EU saying about this stuff? Doesn't it affect them directly more than the US (oil and all)? Is the fact that I keep hearing US blather about this related strictly to me being in the US?

Another also: what is the current readiness of the Russian army? I know they have manpower and firepower, but are they in tip-top condition to get bogged down in a border war? Russian strategy post USSR mostly seems be killing everyone willy-nilly.

And what is England/Europe/the EU saying about this stuff?

Excuse me, England?

What they saying about it in the Confederacy?

It looks almost certain that the armed men are not Russian troops. Ukraine's interior minister has claimed that the men are "under the control of the Kremlin" but suggestions that they're actually Russian soldiers have dissipated. They do look fairly well equipped so it's possible they're Ukrainian soldiers from Crimea but nobody seems clear.

Russia could roll into Crimea with five minute's notice, the entire Black Sea fleet is anchored off-shore, and they would have no problem defending the peninsula if it came to a war with Ukrainian troops, but i honestly can't seen any circumstances in which that would happen at the moment. It would wreck relations with the EU and Russia can generally get what it wants via other means. Russia would probably intervene 'on humanitarian grounds' if Ukraine tried to recapture Crimea by force at some point in the future, but again, that doesn't seem very likely.

Irrespective of how close to the EU it gets, Ukraine still needs a cordial relationship with Russia and, when things have settled down, Tymoshenko is likely to try to rebuild one.

The EU seems to be focusing on getting Russia to calm the situation down but i haven't seen much taking a firm position on Crimea.

"...suggestions that they're actually Russian soldiers have dissipated"

Who the fuck are you, really? And beyond denials-that were-kinda-not-denials from Putin and a spokesman for the Black Sea fleet (“Given the unstable situation around the Black Sea Fleet bases in the Crimea, and the places where our service members live with their families, security has been stepped by the Black Sea Fleet’s anti-terror units.”) what are you talking about here?

How would you compare Russia's relationship to Crimea w/ its relationship to South Ossetia? xp

or 'this one time in college i read a book'

The Ukrainian government is still calling this an 'occupation' but has largely stopped claiming that they are Russian troops, as far as i can tell. The difference between troops loyal to Russia ("controlled from the Kremlin" or otherwise) and actual serving Russian soldiers is fairly important.

Russia has said that it has increased troop activity in the area - euphemistically called "anti-terrorist" security efforts, which is where the port-access blockade allegations come in, but hasn't claimed responsibility for taking the airports.

South Ossetia is what i was thinking of when i said that Russia might intervene if there was an attack but probably wouldn't make the first military move. The situation isn't quite the same yet, though. Crimea, although, an autonomous Republic, is officially recognised by Russia as part of Ukraine at the moment but South Ossetia is mostly viewed as an independent territory.

And I don't think he's misinterpreting something I said or confusing me with someone else; he's just making shit up.

x.post http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russian-troops-take-over-airports-in-crimea/2014/02/28/659fbec0-a082-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html

SV OTM (not going to check this thread again for a while if 'unpleasantness' continues)

Post story indicates journalists have been threatened for approaching, has one of the uniformed men calling himself a member of the Black Sea Fleet, describes a Russian officer approaching the uniformed men, who acted as if he were in command.

xpost

Yeah, SV I always appreciate your clarity and contributions to threads like this.

Credit where credit is due: SV writes very clearly and puts a lot of thought into what he says here, but he appears to me to have an agenda and the constant "otm"s bug me.

It doesn't look like SV is parroting the Russian line here at all, wtf?

I didn't say the Kremlin line or the Putin line -- I said the moderate Russian line.

I might be reading that wrong but it looks like the Post is referring to the men at the airport as "mysterious", not as Russian troops. The Black Sea Fleet guys are part of a separate incident in Balaklava. The officer at the airport is described as "appearing Russian" so presumably not in uniform.

The Ukrainian security minister has repeatedly said that the airport guys are "controlled" or "commanded" by Moscow but not that they are Russian soldiers.

I have no great agenda. I love Ukraine, i love Russia. My sympathies are with the people of both countries and i have little time for their leaders or political structures. They're all a bunch of criminals. Bad reporting and hyperbole about the stuff they get up to makes it harder to critique their crimes with any clarity.

I'm not a huge fan of the people of Ukraine, tbph. It's hard for me to separate out the country's historical right-wing violence against minorities from the current situation.

really?

Well, my family lived in Ukraine before they immigrated to North America so you can probably draw your own conclusions there.

yes i can

That's where many of my family came from too, but like a hundred years ago. Its hard for me to hold a grudge that long.especially since a lot of the blame falls on the czars.

"the cossacks work for the czar" as they say

x-post: I think the Post is not making the judgement, but is leaning toward their being soldiers, contrasting them in appearance, behavior, and armament to pro-Russian local militias. They are in uniform, according to the article, but in a uniform without insignia.

it's my understanding that most of that violence was committed by Ukrainian civilians against their neighbors, and moreover from speaking to Jewish family I still have in Ukraine (very, very, very little, understandably - my family's historical town as far as I've been able to research has been totally obliterated) it has never gone away. cf http://www.chabad.org/blogs/blog_cdo/aid/2502442/jewish/Chabad-Center-in-Ukraine-Firebombed-Amid-Ongoing-Violence.htm and http://gawker.com/are-ukraines-jews-screwed-1532453920

I have a similarly vexed relationship with Poland because of the way my Jewish relatives were treated before, during and after the war. Not that I hold it against any of the Poles I've met.

Ha, my wife just the other day told me about a radio story she heard talking about dwindling anti-Semitism in Poland, and I was immediately pretty much, yeah, no way in hell is that happening. Indeed, there was a study just last year or so that showed a drop of, like, 2%, from 65% to 63% or something, of firmly held anti-Semitic beliefs along the lines of blood libel, using Christian blood in ceremonies, etc. And this in a country that went from 3 million Jews to less than 10,000, currently. One theory is that anti-Semitism is so ingrained that people don't even think of it as anti-Semitism. Doesn't stop them from defacing Jewish cemeteries, though.

(Definitely belongs in the anti-Semitism thread, sorry. I'll repost there)

my wife's family left the Ukraine for the US in the 1980s. They've recently stopped shopping at the Russian markets because the more recent non-Jewish Ukrainian immigrants there are always making anti-Semitic comments.

http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2014-02-28-riabchuk-en.html

huge fan of the people of Ukraine here, got all their stuff

three word userkraine

Ukraine has started to get a lot of Jewish tourists now - mostly organised tours to pilgrimage sites around Cherkassy / Uman but lots to Odessa too. Not sure about Lviv but it would be a shame if it didn't, given how strongly associated the city is with Jewish history.

I have glibly remarked in the past that I would not visit anywhere in Europe east of Italy but I'd love to go to Odessa one day y bc Babelstan.

You should! It's a great city and very chill. Possibly because it has always had such an international outlook it's one of the most laid back, friendly places I have ever been. I do not think you should have any problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TVyPiHVZ1A&feature=youtu.be

I have glibly remarked in the past that I would not visit anywhere in Europe east of Italy

this is ridiculous

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10668357/Russia-admits-that-it-has-moved-troops-in-Ukraine.html

u're right. i'd also visit finland. xp

I was in Russia, Czechoslovakia and Hungary right after the wall came down, I never ran into any anti-semitism. which is not to say it doesn't exist, and is not to say that I was advertising my Jewishness in any particular way that would have invited it, but there are plenty of great places/people in that area of the world, not visiting them because of historically shitty things that have happened seems I dunno sort of small-minded.

xxxp

not visiting them because of historically shitty things that have happened seems I dunno sort of small-minded.

really? this isn't like ancient history. it's current and very recent history.

would you find it small-minded if a black person said they would never visit the states of the confederacy?

anyway, i said glibly bc obv i didn't mean it w/ any seriousness. that said, i've never visited any of those countries (i almost went to kosavo a couple years ago for a conference but it didn't work out). if someone bought me a plane ticket to Krakow tho i wouldn't refuse it.

http://www.jta.org/2014/02/28/news-opinion/world/in-kiev-an-israeli-militia-commander-fights-in-the-streets-and-saves-lives

^ this is amazing

would you find it small-minded if a black person said they would never visit the states of the confederacy?

― Mordy , 28. februar 2014 21:24 (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think this is the same, when you imply that you would go to Italy? Also, what about the countries to the north?

let's say my statement applies specifically to the following countries:
Germany, Austria, Czech, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia

Well, then that makes it more the same. And I can definitely understand that.

i heard obama is speaking at 4:45 about ukraine sitch

https://twitter.com/edwardlucas/status/439499082617597953

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-explainer-budapest-memorandum/25280502.html