thread for contemplating the serious issues raised by the Men's Rights movement

we didn't "invite" anyone, we'd just put word out that we were having a party, and people would come...to drink our free booze. I'd guess that if other campus organizations had served free booze they'd have been popular too.

yes and those attitudes and social environments can be best described as "college aged men" which is the point you guys seem to be missing

xpost

a friendship group that is made up of both men and women is probably less likely to foster these attitudes than one that is all men. frats and sororities balkanize the sexes to an extent, at least among the kinds of people who would get involved in those sorts of orgs in the first place

like, getting rid of the greek system is just one way that i think some colleges could work toward promoting healthier gender dynamics in their schools, or at least signal that that is something they value.

I assure you that our parties did not balkanize the sexes. women and men doing keg stands and funneling, ~~~~~~~together~~~~~~

like call it bro culture or whatever you want, but bro culture of that sort isnt just frat boys high fiving its like theater peeps at cast parties and the cross country team end of the season party and like a million other things as well, maintaining otherwise is just creating a distance between your inclusive "good" kinds of post adolescent men and those rapey scum outside of your social identification

the shadiest dude we all knew about in school was a "cool" guy in the film school who was talented and smart and the opposite of bro culture, at least in terms of its cliched signifiers. he was discovered later to be a date rapist, maybe serially.

i get all of that, i really do, but i also think that there are ways to fight these attitudes if men and women are forced to encounter each other in normal, un-sexually charged situations, and see each other as fellow students and humans. i don't see that happening in frats. they are more impervious to reform.

i also knew a guy who was like that, omar. i know that bad people come in all sorts of cultural boxes. what i am saying is something else, i think, and doesn't foreclose upon that reality.

The only party I ever attended in college that had an Everclear-based punch option was thrown by the women's choir.

It seems like if most campus rapes are happening in peer groups that encourage it, that's pretty useful information that we might want to somehow employ in preventing campus rapes. I don't really see how recognizing that is dangerous -- I'm not letting off the hook the "artsy" type who is also a rapist, nor suggesting that college me never had to check his own behavior just because he didn't live with a bunch of "bros." Everyone should learn where the lines are, everyone should be discouraged from these behaviors.

Dan, I think the atmosphere at my gigantic state U was probably a little different from *your school.*

And yet, there is still a pervasive rape problem on the campus of my school. It's almost as if there's a deeper problem here that can't just be blamed on the existence of fraternities...

tbf frats smell bad

my tiny liberal arts college didnt allow frats at all and guess what

almost as bad as a rotten...................................................................................................................................................................... red herring xp

same here, JJJ. no frats allowed. but what i found out about campus rape blew my mind.

in fact with a little googling, it appears that my former institution had the highest number of sex offenses reported in the state based on the most recent Clery Act statistics available with 3.41 reports per 1000 students. for comparison the U of MN had .25 per 1000, and has a ton of frats.

man i want an emoji for "nodding my head emphatically in a 'right on DJP' kind of way" because dude has been on point forever in threads like these

before people go all in with the "well maybe that institution encourages reporting more than others" sure fine, but considering this whole discussion got spawned by statistics based on self-identification of sexual assualt we're pretty deep in the woods here already fact-wise

this was good:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/02/the-dark-power-of-fraternities/357580/

Sorry to belabor this point, but the statistics are NOT based on "self-identification of sexual assault" -- they're based on the descriptions of certain behavior by guys who mostly do NOT see what they do as sexual assault. Besides that, I really don't think frats are the point either, so we have no argument about that. The problem is, however, a "culture" that seems to especially thrive in groups.

so you think it's likely that there are more people dumb enough to not recognize what sexual assualt is than there are people smart enough to conceal their own misconduct? i dont buy it for a second

which makes the biggest issue wrt this article the very legit potential that the 6% it arrives at is woefully flawed and way under the real number

Sorry to belabor this point, but the statistics are NOT based on "self-identification of sexual assault" -- they're based on the descriptions of certain behavior by guys who mostly do NOT see what they do as sexual assault. Besides that, I really don't think frats are the point either, so we have no argument about that. The problem is, however, a "culture" that seems to especially thrive in groups.

ban groups

i was gonna say

like, if the general takeaway from the article is "wow that number is lower than expected and really focused on a very specific kind of perpetrator" that is more damage than good to society as a whole, and campus safety in general

No, I think the takeaway is "this is a common scenario and set of attitudes that often leads to rapes, so educate men about that scenario and those attitudes before they fall into them"

the other takeaway is that there's a common set of attitudes and a scenario that these people do not feel to be sexual assault

That wasn't really in response to jjj's point, but to an extent, yes -- this people are too dumb to know what they're doing is sexual assault, and they are associated with social frameworks that are sophisticated at sweeping such things under the rug, making them think it's ok.

so, little of column A, a lot of column B

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/09/false_rape_accusations_why_must_be_pretend_they_never_happen.html

wake me in 400 posts' time

lock thread

ftr way more real rapes end in acquittal than false charges make trial. both are terrible but come the fuck on

Add one to the creepy ex-Soviet libertarian list.

In the headline it claims that "they are real and they are a real problem". In the sub-head it admits "they are rare". So, I guess the bold position taken here is that false rape accusations are a real rare problem.

why must be pretend they never happen

The quantum physics of men's rights

What is the point of that article even

Brb writing a super amazing article going to call it "sometimes people accused of crimes are not actually guilty of the crimes they are accused of but you know, not super often" it's going to be a real potboiler.

it's actually a very good article. it's a sensitive topic, but it's hard to argue against making the issue more evidence-based. assuming she's a reputable academic who's done an actual literature review, at the very least it's good to be familiar with the data

She's actually a researcher for the nutso Cato Institute and contributing editor for the even more nutso far-right libertarian Reason magazine who has spent years taking isolated cases of unproven or false allegations and spinning them into a war-on-men narrative so take the statistics with bucketloads of salt.

Hang on, don't you think we should give this anti-feminist concern troll a fair hearing

no
but maybe idk we might not laud feminist trolls quite so militantly the whole time n'est pas

oh yeah man all the militant lauding, that's got to stop

agreed

^ straw mens rights activist

http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341

that is wonderful