OH MY GOD HE'S OOGLY: nu-Who season 8

I don't think it's worth worrying about the dinosaur and the Tardis too much - it's just a fun bit of spectacle to open the episode. They've established the shield thing throughout the Moffat era - the Doctor taking Amy for a space walk in S5 etc. Sure, it's a bit of a stretch to bring the dinosaur along for the ride, but hey, it's not hard SF.

Re the Doctor potentially murdering the droid... surely this is a big deal. Yes there have been times when he's done dark shit, but he's hardly one to off villains with gung-ho gusto. He always tries to find another way - that was the point of the Day of the Doctor. So for the 12th to potentially go back on that is disturbing. The deliberate ambiguity of the Droid's demise seems to tie into the 'Am I a good man?' theme.

Fair point that they've introduced new character traits for Clara rather out of the blue, but at least they've recognised the need to write her properly.

Yes there have been times when he's done dark shit, but he's hardly one to off villains with gung-ho gusto.

Was it really "gung-ho custo" when he was struggling for his life? The cyborg guy was trying to kill him! Previous Doctors have had no problem killing villains in similar situations, that's why I found it weird that all of sudden it was a big thing.

I thought this could probably have done with being a good half an hour shorter than it actually was, most of what was between the credits and the restaurant scene felt like padding, although it got a lot better after that. A big part of this is that regeneration crises are just boring, especially when the stakes aren't actually rising as a result of the Doctor's (physical or mental) absence.

The "you don't see him, you're only seeing his face" stuff was forced and lame, but then again I'm increasingly irritated by Moffatt shows' tendency towards real-time knowing meta-dialogue with the audience. The most recent series of Sherlock did it as well, isn't it enough to just tell a good story without having to pre-emptively address every social media criticism that might emerge at the same time?

I'm a fan of the Vastra/Jenny/Strax characters, though, and I'm fairly sure some people on this thread hate them so wouldn't really have enjoyed a large swathe of this

I don't hate them by any means but they're being overused at this point, the Strax joke was great for a while but is starting to wear thin. I don't think the actress who plays Jenny is particularly good, she mostly comes across as a bit wet, and I'm sure that's not the intention. Vastra is cool but they should do more with her. I like how we're now at the stage where they can show a lesbian kiss on prime-time kids' TV without even the Mail bothering to act outraged.

The breath-holding bit was silly really, a bit of a rehash of "don't blink", except everyone watching is capable of holding their breath more than once in a row.

But Capaldi really was excellent I thought, and there's the making of some decent onscreen chemistry between him and Jenna Coleman, in a way there wasn't with Matt Smith. The restaurant scene in particular was great, both in terms of the two characters bouncing off one another and then the creepiness that followed.

xp Added to that, the droid in the skin blimp was the master-droid - if he/it was destroyed, the others would all power down and themselves be destroyed. Along with being in a struggle, the Doctor seemed to be aware of that, which mitigates, if not excuses, his actions.

Vastra is cool but they should do more with her.

This is totally true: she's supposed to be this sci-fi Sherlock Holmes, with Jenny as her Watson, but we never actually see her doing any detective stuff. That's why a spinoff series featuring the three would be a cool thing, then they'd be able to develop Strax and Jenny too, beyond the two-dimensional roles they occupy now. According to Wikipedia, BBC has actually suggested a spinoff, but Moffat has declined because he doesn't have the time to do it. Couldn't they just get someone else as a producer/showrunner?

Though I suspect production costs are also one reason there hasn't yet been a spinoff, because the Victorian-era setting would make it more expensive than Torchwood and Sarah Jane Adventures were.

Want to know how Silurians had giant dinosaurs? Did they experiment with genetic modification? To find out listen to: http://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/bloodtide-647

Couldn't they just get someone else as a producer/showrunner?

Even if current Who contracts allow this in a way that classic ones didn't, do you think "they" would choose to alienate the head writer and executive producer of two of their biggest worldwide successes currently(/ever)?

I've seen my first "MOFFATT IS THE NEXUS OF ALL MISOGYNY" reaction to this episode of Facebook and I don't get it.

I do agree that it was semi-aggravating that every character was fixated on The Doctor but that tends to happen in regeneration stories, so I got over it after about a second.

Also, afterward BBC America was showing random hodgepodge episodes and literally every single time a 10/Rose interaction came up it was horrible in a way I don't think the show has really been since. I don't get why that whole Thing was okay (especially when they circled back to Rose at the end of Donna's season and gave her her own pet Doctor) and Moffatt showing that a terrified person can still stand up to a murderous android by drawing entirely on her own experiences is the epitome of misogyny, particularly when the show later goes on to explicitly acknowledge all of the ways they fucked up 11/Clara during their goodbye conversation.

I don't get it either; this episode was almost less bad about women than the entire series has been since inception.

I guess accusing a woman of being a control freak when she's shown no real evidence of that beyond wanting a bit of independence is dodgy. But I'd still probably put that down to clumsy writing rather than moffat hating women.

Like, I understood the arguments people were making re: Amy/11, I just disagreed with them. I also understood all of the ways in which the plot mechanics were set up almost by design to sideline and marginalize Clara, (although as sic says I think some of this was meant to be intentionally unflattering for the Doctor and Smith's charisma carried a lot of fans past that realization) and how that's shitty. I don't understand how hitting the reset button on the entire Doctor/companion relationship and having a character whose was most notable for being at the center of a mystery no one really cared about start to become more than just a cipher who asks the right questions is proof that the show has fallen into an irredeemable pit of misogyny.

Having said that, I think there's always been more to Clara as a character than people have said (most notably in "Cold War" and "Hide", where she is clearly terrified of and bothered by what's happening around her but fighting through that to participate in events anyway) but the aforementioned stupid mystery was so hamfistedly done that it never had a chance to coalesce. I'm hoping that the trend continues and Clara becomes as cool as she was when she was a helpful Dalek.

cp: the "control freak" thing is a fair point; I think they intended to sow the seeds for that throughout her original stories but it got downplayed/overshadowed by the stupid mystery

I skipped the last Doctor and tuned in to watch this season cuz hey maybe this new Capaldi guy will be good and while I was predisposed to him I felt like I was watching an episode of Buffy and just gave up after 20 minutes

lol it got much, much better after 20 minutes

I'm just not interested in the emotional politics jibber-jabber, I couldn't even keep up with it some of it was rattled off so fast

Buffy is awesome so I do not understand how that is a complaint.

sometimes I like different shows to do different things but I mean the critique only in a general way - supporting cast soap opera hijinks were never what interested me most about Dr. Who, and seeing them become so central is sort of disconcerting. It makes sense that it's filling that cultural gap of nerd-soap-opera, I get why it's happened and it explains why the re-launched show has achieved an entirely different level of popularity/reached a new audience that is much different from the one I grew up with. Whatever, it's fine, I'm old, I can always watch my Tom Baker DVDs if I want glacially paced, intermittently humorous, high-concept sci-fi nonsense.

it did get much better after twenty minutes btw
though it never completely stopped being nonsense
i'm old too.

I liked this, but the first part was just so badly directed. Those loooong shots might have been good for the melancholic and unsettling scenes, but it just killed all the humor in the first part.

I haven't seen Ben Wheatleys A Field in England yet, and now I'm less inclined to.

it did get much better after twenty minutes btw
though it never completely stopped being nonsense

let's be fair; if it wasn't nonsense, it wouldn't be Doctor Who

I haven't seen Ben Wheatleys A Field in England yet, and now I'm less inclined to.

film is amazing. bears absolutely no resemblance to this episode, or any of the other Wheatley films I've seen

Yeah, everyone should watch it, it's nuts.

"I felt like I was watching an episode of Buffy and just gave up after 20 minutes"

does not compute

also most of the last doctor's run was really good so you missed out there.

I wouldn't say 'most', but definitely some fun stories.

I'd say "most"; 11's tenure didn't really fall apart until "The Angels Take Manhattan" (which I still enjoyed, mind you)

I watched the first episode of his run and just hated the actor, sorry (this happens sometimes with Doctors)

Capaldi def more appealing

You must like eyebrows a lot.

can't really argue with that, but Smith grew into that role quickly, I think....Capaldi is obviously more of a natural. And yeah, I think most of smith's run was great. I don't even really agree with the 'falling apart' bit; the worst thing about his run was the frantic pace in some of the stories, particularly in the middle of the River Song/baby / Doctor is dead arc, where shit just got confusing for me. I didn't have the problem with the Clara storyline like some others did. I did get sick of hearing 'impossible girl' a million times though.

It took a while for him to grow on me, but IMO Smith was the best of the three nu-Who Doctors, definitely the most versatile. If you dislike "emotional politics jibber-jabber", there was a lot less of that during the Smith/Moffat era than the Tennant/Davies era, plus Smith was more subdued as the Doctor than Tennant was. As a whole, I thought season 6 was the best of the 7 we've had so far, even if didn't have the best single episodes.

(xpost to Shakey)

I sometimes think Nu-Who has yet to top its first season.

I really like Matt Smiith so hope he goes onto something worthwhile. Shame they didn't finish the Ruby In The Smoke trilogy with him and Billie Piper.

First season is a strong contender for the best, even if, in retrospect, I don't really like Eccleston's take on the Doctor (a little too hammy, a little too grinny).

Late to the party sorry but I'll throw in my 2 cents for what it's worth

- Love Capaldi Doctor! Maybe even more than I hoped I would. Comedy was great, his interaction with Clara good & v moving at the end there

- the whole DONT BREATHE thing was so dumb & so tiresome

- let's never mention Vastra & Jenny & Strax Cirque Du Soleiling in from the ceiling on scarves ever again

- Capaldi looks p dope in his natty Doctor threads

- let's never mention Vastra & Jenny & Strax Cirque Du Soleiling in from the ceiling on scarves ever again

nah this was lols, bcz you could tell what the joke was going to be, but then it was well-paced and framed so just a shared delight with the makers and the audience

Yeah, I liked that scene, it didn't feel like Circue du Soleil to me, rather than "Victorian Mission Impossible", which I thought was fun.

but then it was well-paced and framed

nb in contrast with all of the following bits of fight scene

I also liked Strax Zoidberg - in general I'm more than okay with varying tone of "New Doctor has existential crisis" vs "Some unengaging nonsense with monsters who are disguised as other things" - but then in general I'm okay with varying tones anyway. I thought it was a nice touch to throw the 'broom' question at the clockwork man from a Doctor who has just changed all of him and is trying to figure out what's unchanged.

Actually, the point where my love of varying tone possibly refuses the fence = if I remember correctly, after Mme Vastra tricks him into knocking himself out, there's a very kid's TV sound effect.

I thought it was a nice touch to throw the 'broom' question at the clockwork man from a Doctor who has just changed all of him and is trying to figure out what's unchanged.

Just so no one misses the point, in this scene they have the Doctor holding a plate as a mirror in front of the cyborg guys's face - but the flipside of the plate is also reflective, so the Doctor sees his own face there. It was such an obvious thing, but still a nice touch.

Also, my first thought about the end was that heaven looked like the place in 'the Girl Who Waited', but that totally isn't it, at all, right?

Turns out it actually is the same garden! That's probably a coincidence, though: apparently the real garden they used is conveniently located just outside Cardiff, so it's been used in Torchwood and Sarah Jane Adventures too. Still, the visual parallel between this ep and "The Girl Who Waited" made me think of another theory regarding Missy's identity... In that episode, Old Amy felt she was abandoned by the Doctor on that planet; what if Missy is some previously unseen companion that the Doctor did actually abandon? We know he can be a bit of a dick, and that he has a short attention span, so it's perfectly he has had some companions he'd totally forgotten about, left behind in some planet or era they don't belong to.

Furthermore, there's a clear parallel between the Doctor telling Clara he's not her boyfriend, and Missy telling the cyborg guy the Doctor is her boyfriend. What if Missy was a companion who, just like Clara, thought the Doctor loved him, but this time, unlike with Clara, the Doctor never bothered to clear things up? If the Doctor forgetting her made her go a bit crazy, that would explain why she still thinks the Doctor is her boyfriend. Also, based on the first ep the theme of this series seems to be the Doctor facing his old mistakes, so having an abandoned companion as the villain would fit into that.

Of course all of the above would also fit if Missy is some kind of a parallel timeline version of Clara... But that wouldn't explain why she has a different face.

Completely out-there guess - she's the Valeyard of River Song. Largely based on her 'real' name (Gatekeeper of the Nethersphere), which is all a bit Trial of a Timelord/Matrix related; also that Moffatt doesn't seem to be able to leave his favourite characters alone so I doubt we've seen the end of either the Weeping Angels or River Bleedin' Song.

Well, TBH, I don't think River's story ever got a proper conclusion... Okay, she doesn't have a body anymore and is stuck in a computer simulation, but it remains unclear why the Doctor doesn't even try to get her out of there? You'd think a person with his resources would be able to do it somehow?

Weeping Angels, OTOH, are such a case of diminishing returns you'd think even Moffatt had understood it by now? What a way to ruin a brilliant one-off concept, let's hope we never see them again.

Anyway, can someone explain this whole Valeyard/Matrix business to me? I see people refer to them every once in a while, but not having seen any old-Who, they're a mystery to me.

I semi consciously put together a theory where Missy is in the core drive of the TARDIS which I think i remember being described as being a black hole type set up. Think this was from one of the few Doctor Who novels I've read as an adult, which makes me think it's the one where they are at Los Olvidados or whatever the name of the place where Oppenheimer was working on the nuclear bomb was.

She meets both robots and humans when they die in connection to the Doctor. Sorry will make that the only spoiler.

Trying to remember what happened to Idris the previous embodiment of the TArdis at the end of the Doctor's wife. Was the entity destroyed as such by being reintegrated with the machine? Which might explain why there was a different personification of that character introduced.

Anyway looks like whoever that entity known as Missy is she's more benevolent than malevolent though I've only seen her twice so could be further development later in the series.
I think there have been other people who've been sucked into the TARDIS's drive, though they were far from benevolent to the Doctor etc. Trying to think exactly what the stories were that happened in.

Actually to clarify I think the black hole set up is the power core driving the TARDIS. Just got the idea that the TARDIS has its own little world inside that. Though there would not be a need for a spatial presence for a world that data/spirits /whatever inhabited when there is a series of dimensions at play anyway.
JUst wondering, thinking about that, how stable the insides of the TARDIS are actually supposed to b.
If rooms etc change locations which I think they do, did the Girl Who Waited see a Tardis reconfiguring alongside its Doctor? I think earlier Doctors have ejected large amounts of rooms like Peter Davidson in Castrovalva I also think there were some references by Tom Baker to rooms moving.

& was Idris's personification a result of the Tardis being in its temporary location outside the normal space/time continuum as set up at the beginning of that episode.

Anyway, can someone explain this whole Valeyard/Matrix business to me? I see people refer to them every once in a while, but not having seen any old-Who, they're a mystery to me.

You're really really better off not knowing anything about the Valeyard - even if you watch the whole 14-episode story, it makes no sense at all. This may or may not be related to the last episode being written by drastically untalented people who vocally thought Dr Who was stupid and who were legally prohibited from reading the script notes by the bloke who'd written a previous version when the ORIGINAL writer who was meant to be wrapping it up had died mid-episode.

valyard was supposed to be some intermediary regeneration before the doctor's final regeneration and was evil. it was'nt a terrible idea but it was executed horribly and was never really mentioned again (actually it was in the name of the doctor, I think). I don't expect it to come up as a plot point again