I thought it started well, but the egg concept was just too silly for me.
― the joke should be over once the kid is eaten. (chap), Sunday, 5 October 2014 18:14 (nine years ago) link
thanks Dan, I was afraid to even watch this after reading this but I trust you.
― akm, Sunday, 5 October 2014 18:21 (nine years ago) link
re the intentionality of the abortion angle, let's not forget the frame in which ABORTED appears in all caps
good point, the show is thus definitively saying that ABORTion is the right thing to do in all instances and will save the world
― Starland Vocal Gland (sic), Sunday, 5 October 2014 18:44 (nine years ago) link
I didn't even notice the pro-life stuff, I just thought the episode was painfully bad.
― erry red flag (f. hazel), Sunday, 5 October 2014 18:52 (nine years ago) link
the point repeatedly made that 'this is your decision, only you can choose' was what drove the issue home more than any other.
― kinder, Sunday, 5 October 2014 19:45 (nine years ago) link
who is "you"
― Starland Vocal Gland (sic), Sunday, 5 October 2014 19:48 (nine years ago) link
Clara, for some reason
― kinder, Sunday, 5 October 2014 19:50 (nine years ago) link
also how would repeatedly stating your right to choose be an anti-choice message but
― Starland Vocal Gland (sic), Sunday, 5 October 2014 19:53 (nine years ago) link
why Clara not Courtney?
― Starland Vocal Gland (sic), Sunday, 5 October 2014 19:56 (nine years ago) link
I meant more that it screamed 'this is about abortion' rather than the particular outcome
― kinder, Sunday, 5 October 2014 19:59 (nine years ago) link
the abortion reading of this story is… available. But IMHO underdetermined if you look at Who as a whole - stories where the Dr kills to prevent further destruction are not hard to find. I think a stronger claim to pro-life/anti-abortion reading could be cast towards Genesis ot Daleks. "Do I have the right?'
I kept expecting the third option of moving the bloody moon away a bit would have been brought up. Just lasso the Moon - you already done the bloody Earth like that for heaven's sake
― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Sunday, 5 October 2014 20:10 (nine years ago) link
Also notable that Dr left for 3 women to decide. Another point in favour of the viability of the abortion reading, as it suggests the writers were clearly aware that the reading is there for the taking.
anyway, this was the first episode this season where I was actually engaged - i know, it surprised me. the ludicrous moon egg thing was distracting at first, but the actual emotional adventure of Clara (and Courtney) felt like firsts for Who.
― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Sunday, 5 October 2014 20:14 (nine years ago) link
tbh I had already googled for a "have I the right?" gif
http://31.media.tumblr.com/86a854102bc330f2ab98552507b5f333/tumblr_mw0nsdpbDF1qke34uo1_250.gif
― Starland Vocal Gland (sic), Sunday, 5 October 2014 20:16 (nine years ago) link
also, TUMBLR! Courtney's a SJW!
― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Sunday, 5 October 2014 20:29 (nine years ago) link
#DoctorWhoGate #NotYourDragonEgg
― 💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Sunday, 5 October 2014 23:03 (nine years ago) link
ok so now i have this stuck in my head
http://youtu.be/r9C3tZwDpx4
― difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 5 October 2014 23:26 (nine years ago) link
What if the ~choice~ was whether not to deliver the nuclear payload or to abort it?
― cichleee suite (Leee), Monday, 6 October 2014 02:23 (nine years ago) link
or c) we leave the moon at a fire station
― difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 6 October 2014 04:09 (nine years ago) link
so having watched this after reading all of these comments I did think the abortion overtone was certainly there, though I don't really feel it had a position on it; it just posed the question, in much the same way Genesis of the Daleks did, on what is the right thing to do with this power. I don't think this was the strongest episode of the series, I'd put it just above Into the Dalek as the worst, but as usual I liked the Clara/Doctor interplay at the end and thought that went in an interesting direction. Half-way point of the season.
― akm, Monday, 6 October 2014 04:19 (nine years ago) link
agreed. pretty silly (why so little reaction from the astronauts when they discover the doctor et al on their ship??) but clara calling the dr out was unexpected and powerful - it needed to be said!
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 6 October 2014 08:20 (nine years ago) link
I really liked it – I'm easily taken in, so I thought it'd be a pretty routine base-under-siege thing, and enjoyed the sideways swerve into the mess of stuff going on in the second half. Again, I thought I knew where I was with the Dr dropping a "Now… humanity must decide for itself. I can no longer decide for you" – enjoyable SF trope, & Capaldi sold it brilliantly. loved the further turns after – 'no stabilisers' = the Dr being a patronising fuck, Clara's rage, & the frightening sense that a huge moment of planetary-ethical choice might just be a pantomime to make Courtney feel special (Capaldi-Dr feels properly alien in a much less cute way than Smith – he just doesn't seem to get humanity, or how to be kind. He's been making mistakes regularly this series, in all sort of ways – this seems his deepest misjudgement yet. More generally, "Not telling people stuff" is p basic to drama, but there does seem a lot of it in this series).
But the abortion stuff… yeah, that's a problem. The writer/moffatt cannot have not noticed and gave what looked like deliberate pointers in that direction. To me, that's very risky – in fact not really ok – it's like flirting or playing with ideas (that in reality aren't just ideas) , doing a bit of nudging to give more moral weight to a narrative. With that reading pulled to the front, I think the climax is a bit of a mess or overladen, simultaneously pushing female agency/choice & preservation of life at all costs. & it does detract or distract from a resolution I would otherwise cheer the fuck out of – an encounter with the sublime pointing humanity to a better destiny.
Now a fan of Coleman! I did not think that would happen.
― woof, Monday, 6 October 2014 09:18 (nine years ago) link
― woof,
She's been a bit of revelation this season. Has probably always been a decent actress, and it's only now they're bothering to write her character properly now they're free of all the Impossible Girl baggage.
― the joke should be over once the kid is eaten. (chap), Monday, 6 October 2014 10:21 (nine years ago) link
being able to move from the straightforward same-age romance/flirtation relationship seems v healthy as well – shakes up writers and audience, having to work things out on new grounds – there's a paternal/avuncular easy option which it's not taking.
― woof, Monday, 6 October 2014 10:51 (nine years ago) link
The concept of the Doctor as a “patronising fuck” has always been there as subtext, but making it explicit, in a rather shouty adram fashion, didn’t really work for me. There’s a sort of Watchmen-y “this is how it would be if it really happened” vibe – but I’d rather have character fun than character depth, or at least the writers seem to think it’s a zero sum game between the two.
(Caveat: Next week’s episode looks silly as shit (yay), and I’ve really enjoyed the season so far.)
― Chuck_Tatum, Monday, 6 October 2014 11:33 (nine years ago) link
(adram = amdram)
― Chuck_Tatum, Monday, 6 October 2014 11:35 (nine years ago) link
Shitty overly dramatic music drowned the fuck out of everything again :(
Moon as an egg was silly but fun, felt like an old sci-fi short.
Enjoyed Clara calling out the Doctor on being a dick.
Didn't really see it all as anti-abortion but it's a valid reading I suppose (despite all the available women being given all the choice).
Once again we had three women (or two and a girl) sharing a scene without the Doctor - are they attempting to address those studies that said they repeatedly failed the Bechdel Test since Moffat took over?
― Guinness on your moustache (onimo), Monday, 6 October 2014 15:10 (nine years ago) link
lol "studies," more like Tumblr posts I'd reckon.
― cichleee suite (Leee), Monday, 6 October 2014 16:57 (nine years ago) link
v much doubt it's anti-abortion, as such - it doesn't get that far. it's just clunkily present as a unavoidable but necessarily unarticulated interpretation.
anyway - yes to Clara (agree w chap about being free of the invisible girl baggage). and yes to capaldi as alien (and yes, continually making long-perspective mistakes about age, also washing and importance of humans, Clara's great comment about him "sitting there like a big grey stick insect" in Listen).
― Fizzles, Monday, 6 October 2014 17:02 (nine years ago) link
xp times a zillion to sic and whoever else but i think the bottom line is just that i don't like this show and that's a huge bummer for me
― the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Monday, 6 October 2014 18:38 (nine years ago) link
are you new to it? or you don't like this season?
― akm, Monday, 6 October 2014 20:14 (nine years ago) link
i grew up watching the showi got back on with ecclestoni quit at the end of the tennant run when the last episodes were so abundantly dumb that I knew it was sign off timeand when it was clear to me that what moffat was doing was totally not for mei tried again this season with the entry of capaldi but man there's something about the way the show IS that turns me off something fierceno slams if you can get enjoyment out of it, i truly wish i could
― the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Monday, 6 October 2014 20:26 (nine years ago) link
Clara at least took a dig at this. I feel like te here was less background music in this episode overall but maybe it wa just the moment where she said 'does dramatic music play in your head when you do this?'
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Monday, 6 October 2014 20:34 (nine years ago) link
did she say that? Missed it!
― akm, Monday, 6 October 2014 20:46 (nine years ago) link
forks there is an earnest, goofy, guy-and-gal-next-doorness to almost every british drama that would never fly in america and dr who definitely has it; is it that, do you think?
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 6 October 2014 20:48 (nine years ago) link
for me it's the mawkish sentimentality, the kindergarten level repartee between the sexes, the consistently dopey meta dialogue and the whole GUYS THIS IS SUPER IMPORTANT AND MEANINGFUL AND CLEVER overlay that never lets upit's like somewhere along the way doctor who became self aware and it feels the need to constantly remind me that i'm watching doctor who and isn't it great that this is a new episode of doctor who
― the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Monday, 6 October 2014 20:50 (nine years ago) link
lol those charges are hard to argue with it must be said
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 6 October 2014 20:53 (nine years ago) link
it's like somewhere along the way doctor who became self aware and it feels the need to constantly remind me that i'm watching doctor who and isn't it great that this is a new episode of doctor who
haha yeah I feel you on this, and my viewing history mirrors yours. I find it sort of mildly enjoyable but I wouldn't miss it if it stopped, it does feel like an entirely different beast from how it used to be.
― Οὖτις, Monday, 6 October 2014 20:57 (nine years ago) link
particularly in the MEANINGFUL AND CLEVER department
love meaningful-and-clever Who, like Time Meddler and Mind Robber and Deadly Assassin and Time Warrior and Sun Makers and Curse Of Fenric and Ghost Light
― Starland Vocal Gland (sic), Monday, 6 October 2014 21:24 (nine years ago) link
i liked the old quantum leap style eps where he shows up for some reason and spends most of the episode figuring out just why he's there. fumbling his way into trouble, clevering his way out and saving the day almost accidentally but probably not really. episodes with the pomposity of the "you'll never be alone in the universe because you take along companions and why do you take along companions because you were scared you'd be alone in the universe" self fulfilling prophecy time-is-a-flat-circlejerk nonsense really run counter to Bond-style who and i get where that's maybe your cuppa java. it ain't mine.
― the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Monday, 6 October 2014 21:43 (nine years ago) link
lonely-in-the-universe and mawkishly sentimental are 102x more RTD traits than Moffatt for me, but if you hated Moffatt's eps most out of RTD's era, sure, bail out
but
i liked the old quantum leap style eps where he shows up for some reason and spends most of the episode figuring out just why he's there. fumbling his way into trouble, clevering his way out and saving the day almost accidentally but probably not really.
like The Beast Below and Vampires Of Venice and The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood and The Lodger and A Christmas Carol and The Curse Of The Black Spot and The Doctor's Wife and The Rebel Flesh/The Almost People and Night Terrors and The Girl Who Waited (about Amy, but it's an accidental bumble) and The God Complex and Closing Time and Asylum Of The Daleks and Dinosaurs On A Spaceship and A Town Called Mercy and The Rings Of Akhaten and Hide and Cold War and Into The Dalek and Time Heist and Kill The Moon?
(nb I am not saying all these episodes are good)
― Starland Vocal Gland (sic), Tuesday, 7 October 2014 00:34 (nine years ago) link
i am not that kinda fan; you're gonna have to be like "the one where they go to hell and the devil is there" or "the one where there's some frog beast that took over parliament"anyways the signal to noise has dropped off where i think i'm gonna watch like fifteen minutes per ep going forward and if it's not clicking, skip it
― the other song about butts in the top 5 (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 7 October 2014 00:44 (nine years ago) link
did she say that? Missed it!― akm, Tuesday, 7 October 2014 07:46 (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― akm, Tuesday, 7 October 2014 07:46 (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I found the exact quote on another site
Doctor: Essentially, what I knew was that you would always make the best choice. I have faith that you would always make the right choice.Clara: Honestly, do you have music playing in your head when you say rubbish like that?
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Tuesday, 7 October 2014 02:14 (nine years ago) link
Gold has been toned down in many recent eps, eg this one and Listen. but he was as horribly overpowering as usual last week.
― Starland Vocal Gland (sic), Tuesday, 7 October 2014 03:55 (nine years ago) link
#BringBackKeff
yeah I haven't noticed the music nearly as much this season.
― akm, Tuesday, 7 October 2014 04:04 (nine years ago) link
idk maybe something about Saturday's Pro-Moon music struck a particularly jarring chord in my head because it got to a point where I couldn't pay attention to what was going on because it was so intrusive
― Guinness on your moustache (onimo), Tuesday, 7 October 2014 08:30 (nine years ago) link
Does Murray Gold score every single episode? Sounds like a big job (though I guess he reuses cues a lot).
― the joke should be over once the kid is eaten. (chap), Tuesday, 7 October 2014 09:05 (nine years ago) link
Yeah I agree with this, "anti-abortion propaganda" is overstating it. I mean leaving aside the fact that this sort of moral quandry is one that Dr Who deals with on a semi-regular basis, killing a baby that is right on the verge of being born isn't legally recognised as abortion, and the whole "what if everyone on earth dies?" is not is exactly the sort of counter-argument that can be easily applied to the debate. But it was clumsy, I admit, even if I enjoyed the episode in general.
Clara flaming the Doctor right at the end was probably my favourite bit, I'm not sure we've seen a companion get that... genuinely angry with him before.
― Matt DC, Tuesday, 7 October 2014 09:54 (nine years ago) link
Gold has done every single episode of the revived series AFAIK. It was a glorious relief to watch the leaked workprints of the early episodes this year and not be browbeaten with his obvious emote-o-tron orchestras.
― Starland Vocal Gland (sic), Tuesday, 7 October 2014 18:40 (nine years ago) link