Rolling Islamophobia Thread

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I mean I don't think, for example, that Jesus's mention of the sword is really equivalent to an imperative to slay the idolaters wherever you find them. It's fair to say that the vast majority of people in any religion don't practice their religion according to a literal interpretation of scriptures, but that comfortably brushes aside the fundamentalists, and I don't know whether all holy books produce the same kinds of fundamentalists.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, 13 October 2014 04:48 (nine years ago) link

the argument would be that scriptures don't produce fundamentalists at all, given that fundamentalism is an essentially modern phenomenon. it'd be more instructive to look in a broader sociopolitical context at the kinds of communities that produce sectarian violence i think, altho without denying that the rhetorical justification for this violence is rooted in religious discourse

Chimp Arsons, Monday, 13 October 2014 06:32 (nine years ago) link

It just seems to me like at the moment violent Islamic fundamentalism is significantly more widespread than violent Christian fundamentalism. Maybe the underlying reasons really are geopolitical, having something to do with the power balance between traditionally Christian socities (i.e. Europe/America) and non-Christian societies.

I think the place I take issue with Maher/Harris most is drawing in that third "concentric circle" of people with conservative views on women, gays, etc., because once you get to that circle you're clearly talking about something that would cover a significant portion of Christians and members of other religions as well. Using "gays" in particular as a stick to beat other cultures with seems pretty offensive, given how recently the US has started to change its tune about homosexuality. But at the same time, I don't think the first circle -- violent Islamic fundamentalism -- has an equivalent in Christianity at the moment. Abortion clinic bombers are a pretty tiny and insignificant phenomenon comparatively. ISIS and its supporters/sympathizers are far from mainstream Islam, but they're also not just a handful of outlier wackos with minimal impact.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, 13 October 2014 15:02 (nine years ago) link

It just seems to me like at the moment violent Islamic fundamentalism is significantly more widespread than violent Christian fundamentalism. Maybe the underlying reasons really are geopolitical, having something to do with the power balance between traditionally Christian socities (i.e. Europe/America) and non-Christian societies.

this was essentially the writer's argument man

k3vin k., Monday, 13 October 2014 15:14 (nine years ago) link

Abortion clinic bombers are a pretty tiny and insignificant phenomenon comparatively.

Bombers, yeah, at this point, but they don't need to bomb them when they have a compliant and sympathetic political class that will use the law to shut down clinics. It might not be violent, but it's capitulation to religious fundamentalism nonetheless.

bippity bup at the hotel california (Phil D.), Monday, 13 October 2014 15:20 (nine years ago) link

BTW, this is blatantly false, and intellectually dishonest: The same Bible that commands Jews to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18) also exhorts them to “kill every man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey,” who worship any other God (1 Sam. 15:3).

What he's actually referring to is the story of the massacre of the Amalekites - certainly one of the ugliest parts of the old testament and nothing to be proud of, but there is nothing in the text that can be interpreted as a command to kill everyone who worships any other God. It's a revenge story concerning a specific tribe.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, 13 October 2014 15:29 (nine years ago) link

It might not be violent, but it's capitulation to religious fundamentalism nonetheless.

― bippity bup at the hotel california (Phil D.), Monday, October 13, 2014 11:20 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sure, and I think this is a good point. Religion is often connected with political movements, some of them extremist. I think it is reasonable to fear a religious-political movement that seeks to curtail your own freedoms or that actively opposes your way of life and looks to change it. So if a group has as its platform that liberal democratic government should be replaced with religious government, I oppose that group.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, 13 October 2014 15:33 (nine years ago) link

no one disputes that, dude. the point is that attributing the ugly attitudes/beliefs as inherent to the religion elides the fact that religion and the interpretation of its texts take place within certain social and economic contexts

k3vin k., Monday, 13 October 2014 15:47 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, I get that. But leaving it at "all religions ____" elides a lot of things too.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, 13 October 2014 15:57 (nine years ago) link

Which religions do you think actively and effectively resist interpretation as a justification for slaughtering the 'other'?

Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Monday, 13 October 2014 16:02 (nine years ago) link

Bahai seems like a good candidate for that

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, 13 October 2014 16:03 (nine years ago) link

i mean the islamic world certainly has the most problems with that kind of stuff right now. that's pretty indisputable. but it's more likely that its fundamentalism is a product of its poverty and what is basically a feudal society rather than anything intrinsic to islam

k3vin k., Monday, 13 October 2014 16:05 (nine years ago) link

capitalism would probably be the best thing that could ever happen to a lot of these societies tbh

k3vin k., Monday, 13 October 2014 16:06 (nine years ago) link

Music is prohibited in Islam, right?

Raccoon Tanuki, Monday, 13 October 2014 16:09 (nine years ago) link

Obtuse

tsrobodo, Monday, 13 October 2014 17:26 (nine years ago) link

I hear you guys don't use heat

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, 13 October 2014 17:30 (nine years ago) link

the concentric circles model of religion doesn't have a lot to recommend it imo

ogmor, Monday, 13 October 2014 17:53 (nine years ago) link

agreed

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, 13 October 2014 18:11 (nine years ago) link

what is the concentric circles model?

the late great, Monday, 13 October 2014 18:15 (nine years ago) link

My family belongs to a chassidic group that has had some controversy about their beliefs. A very vocal minority believes in actively proselytizing the belief that the now deceased Rebbe is the Messiah. Some even fringier elements have promoted ideas that imply the Rebbe is actually god. A larger % of the chassidic group don't proselytize, but say 'yechi,' (which attests to the kingship + eternal life of the Rebbe). An even larger - probably majority of Chabad chassidim - believe that the Rebbe is the messiah but don't believe in talking about it / spreading it. It's a private belief. And then I would say that the number of Chabad chassidim who don't believe he is the messiah at all is very few. I'm bringing this up bc my personal experience in this culture means that I understand what it looks like when more common beliefs give tacit support to more radical beliefs in a group. I don't know exactly what percentage of Muslims believe in actively killing apostates v. believe that it's the right thing to do but they won't do it v. believe in a general sense that Sharia law should be the law of the land v. are only culturally Muslim and for all practical purposes don't believe in religious law at all, etc. But I think the concentric model is useful for visualizing how silence in a faith community can often represent the holding of beliefs that aren't reasonable + mainstream and that the holding of those beliefs (whether it's that the Rebbe is messiah, or that stoning is the appropriate punishment for adultary) can empower the more terrible extremists. That's what I get from that model anyway.

Mordy, Monday, 13 October 2014 18:21 (nine years ago) link

xp like circles of hell but w/ fundamentalism instead of sin

ogmor, Monday, 13 October 2014 18:29 (nine years ago) link

xp it's something Harris used in his Maher appearance -- like "small circle of violent extremists, larger core of political islamists who don't openly espouse violence but believe in establishing Islamic states, larger circle of "conservative islamists" who hold a lot of beliefs we find repugnant but aren't active in a political project" etc.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, 13 October 2014 18:30 (nine years ago) link

*larger circle, not core

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, 13 October 2014 18:30 (nine years ago) link

hm

why are violent extremists at the center?

the late great, Monday, 13 October 2014 18:31 (nine years ago) link

again, any metaphor or schematic that places "fundamentalism" as central to the tenets or truth of a religion is a dishonest scheme i think - tho i get that really what Harris is talking about are fellow travellers or useful idiots

Chimp Arsons, Monday, 13 October 2014 18:32 (nine years ago) link

a sect that arrives late in a religion's history and is followed by a small fraction of that faith's followers might want to claim centrality but surely is not central in any meaningful way. maybe Sam Harris is happy to blithely accept fundamentalists account of their own importance for some reason.

Chimp Arsons, Monday, 13 October 2014 18:35 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, I don't like the idea of placing them at the "center." My concern isn't really how "central" the violent fundamentalist group is so much as how large and how powerful it is. While I think Mordy's description may work within a specific group/community of Jews, I don't think it works within Judaism at large, which is very multicentric. Like at this point I don't really see reform Judaism as hassdic Judaism lite, I see it as a very different branch of Judaism with very different ideas about things. I know much less about the branches of Islam but my impression is that it is also very multicentric, and that there are branches of Islam in which, e.g., wahabbist ideas couldn't even find purchase, because the branches of the religion have evolved so differently.

my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, 13 October 2014 18:40 (nine years ago) link

Good point, Hurting. The way Sam Harris and Bill Maher present the concentric circles in the clip upthread is completely opposite of that, pretending that their circles cover the entirety of the muslim world. And it's a bigoted idea. Insane Wahabists who are mainly located in Saudi Arabia becomes the reason to condemn muslim immigrants in the west, because jihadists and islamists are 'arguably 20%' of muslims.

Frederik B, Monday, 13 October 2014 19:28 (nine years ago) link

Harris, Maher and others could be profitably read as products of 9-11?

cardamon, Monday, 13 October 2014 21:11 (nine years ago) link

Because I can't see them finding a place alongside Voltaire and William James and The Golden Bough, in the tradition of people who write about religion, but as '9-11 literature' maybe?

cardamon, Monday, 13 October 2014 21:14 (nine years ago) link

three months pass...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B63_50aCQAAZ0JS.png

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 21 January 2015 20:27 (nine years ago) link

Lol @ Poland and Hungary.

Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Wednesday, 21 January 2015 20:38 (nine years ago) link

tbf when u ask an average american what % of the US is Jewish, you get ridiculous numbers - I once heard 25% (the answer is 2%). i think a) ppl are terrible w/ evaluating percentages and b) minorities in particular stand out more + tend to be over estimated

Mordy, Wednesday, 21 January 2015 20:45 (nine years ago) link

the latter is true - but America's relationship to Jews is totally different from Europe's relationship to Muslims

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 21 January 2015 21:09 (nine years ago) link

which informs the survey results/numbers above

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 21 January 2015 21:09 (nine years ago) link

oh yeah, for sure, i just meant to say that there are other things at play besides straight up islamophobia

Mordy, Wednesday, 21 January 2015 21:11 (nine years ago) link

When I lived in Woolwich in '95/'97 there was a massive influx of Somalian refugees and it was an area with something like 80% public housing.

xelab, Wednesday, 21 January 2015 21:16 (nine years ago) link

i think a) ppl are terrible w/ evaluating percentages and b) minorities in particular stand out more + tend to be over estimated

Or else they're bigoted halfwits.

A trumpet growing in a garden (Tom D.), Wednesday, 21 January 2015 21:25 (nine years ago) link

Caveat, unsure about this site and haven't fully checked out the article. None the less, might be some fuel for this thread:

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/rania-khalek/american-sniper-spawns-death-threats-against-arabs-and-muslims

cardamon, Friday, 23 January 2015 14:40 (nine years ago) link

two months pass...

^^ topical

the late great, Thursday, 9 April 2015 04:08 (nine years ago) link

So one of the major Danish parties, not even the rigth-wing populist one, who basically only gets votes through fear of foreigners, but the Conservatives, just put up an election poster saying STOP Naziislamism. In four rows

STOP
Nazi
Islam
Ism

Can any of you beat that?

Frederik B, Monday, 13 April 2015 11:58 (nine years ago) link

denmark seems like a weird, weird place regarding foreigners

PORC EPIC SAVVAGE (imago), Monday, 13 April 2015 12:03 (nine years ago) link

It's just racist, plain and simple. The left wing labour party had posters saying 'If you come to Denmark, you have to work' with a subtext specifying that it's pointed at both refugees and immigrants. Which is well and good, except refugees have asked for permission to work for a long time, anything to not be holed up in limbo in camps without having anything to do, but they haven't been allowed to do nothing. And now we're calling them lazy.

A mayor went out recently, and said that the reason his city was so good at getting refugees to work was because they until now hadn't had that many refugees from Africa.

It's just a disgusting cesspool at this point.

Frederik B, Monday, 13 April 2015 12:24 (nine years ago) link

three weeks pass...

http://news.yahoo.com/officer-shooting-muhammad-cartoon-contest-texas-005227724.html

obviously having abhorrent views and putting together shitty-themed contests doesn't make one deserving of violence so yes, outright condemning the attack at this event without question, but....at the same time, fuck the group that put this on. Not blaming them for inciting violence, but Jesus God, a terrible, offensive idea. and yet on my other hand I'm all like "fuck religion". so many conflicting feelings.

thankfully no civilians seem to be dead...at least, not known yet. two suspects dead.

Hammer Smashed Bagels, Monday, 4 May 2015 01:16 (nine years ago) link

given what happened, expect a lot more of these events

Is It Any Wonder I'm Not the (President Keyes), Monday, 4 May 2015 14:32 (nine years ago) link

xp the group that put it on is the brainchild of P4m G3ll4r, who is also the one putting all the anti-Islam ads on NYC buses. She's a vile, contemptible bigot who got exactly what she was hoping for here.

I might like you better if we Yelped together (Phil D.), Monday, 4 May 2015 14:35 (nine years ago) link

attn: earth: don't shoot at our bigots, it only encourages them

goole, Monday, 4 May 2015 14:45 (nine years ago) link

She also apparantly works with people in Denmark. We are at this point an international exporter of Islamophobia.

That said, the shooting is obviously the important part of this story.

Frederik B, Monday, 4 May 2015 14:54 (nine years ago) link

They all sell alcohol and cigarettes over here! They'd probably go out of business otherwise.

Cram Session in Goniometry (Tom D.), Tuesday, 5 May 2015 16:28 (nine years ago) link

this is strange:

https://www.chortle.co.uk/news/2023/10/19/54359/omid_djalili_gig_axed_over_personal_threats

Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 25 October 2023 10:39 (seven months ago) link


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