could be.
― Steve 'n' Seagulls and Flock of Van Dammes (forksclovetofu), Friday, 17 October 2014 16:01 (nine years ago) link
whiteness is really more about in-groupness than anything else. if you meet someone new and they conform to a general blandness then they code as white.
not sure if it was on that whiteness project page or elsewhere but the dumb idea that all these people of color or distinct ethnicity have a homeland they could return to if they don't like it here in 'merica is pretty much the core of unexamined assumptions about who and what you actually are in society
― ⌘-B (mh), Friday, 17 October 2014 16:43 (nine years ago) link
I'm gonna come across as typically clueless but I'd like to see "general blandness" interrogated. I can relate to that judgment of whiteness but I don't think I understand well what I'm relating to.
― droit au butt (Euler), Saturday, 18 October 2014 10:54 (nine years ago) link
I would like to see "whiteness" and "general blandness" divorced as concepts.
Blandness is the absence of flavour. It is the concept of whiteness as not-a-thing - when it is not not-a-thing, it is itself a carefully constructed pose represented as a default.
That positioning "whiteness" as "Mayo" or "Vanilla" is a more helpful way of looking at it.
Mayonnaise has a flavour! It has a creamy, oily, slightly eggy flavour that you learn not to notice when you have been eating sandwiches soaked in mayonnaise your entire life. Vanilla also has a flavour! That one has learned to eat vanilla ice cream, and thinking of it as "not a flavour" without noticing that ice cream itself has the physical sensations of sweet, fatty, cold, and vanilla itself has a flavour which is actually distinct from eating plain cream. One only thinks of vanilla ice cream as "not having a flavour" in comparison with rocky road or mint chocolate chip. But compared to a glass of water, milk has a very definite flavour. It's a flavour we've been trained through familiarity not to notice. (And milk is an even more apt comparison, because Northern Europeans are pretty unique among humans through having a weird mutation which allows us to digest milk as adults!)
Equating "whiteness" and "blandness" is dangerous because it ignores all this. Equating "whiteness" and "default" is more to the point, because one can relearn viewing "default" as "one position among many available positions" as opposed to the "total lack of positionality" that "blandness" implies.
― Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 18 October 2014 11:45 (nine years ago) link
Your food examples are great, raising points about those flavors of food that get cast as bland. Mayo, the devil's condiment, has a flavor (I am told) that is easy not to notice; same with milk. Are they cast as bland because they're familiar to "white folk" as the tastes of "their" culture? I don't know. My father comes from Latin America and finds much "white person" North American food inedible because, he says, it's bland. He'll load that food up with salsa and then it's ok. I think that putting chilis on food doesn't code as bland to my father on account of its being "his" culture's taste. Instead, he'll say it burns his mouth, and that's not bland. So there's something about food blandness, it seems, that exceeds mere cultural familiarity.
But if that's right, then is there an analog to whiteness there?
― droit au butt (Euler), Saturday, 18 October 2014 12:41 (nine years ago) link
No, because I think that that is where the metaphor falls down.
Because there is an actual quality of 'blandness' in real food - as when drinking water, pure distilled water has no taste. But there is no race equivalent of 'water'! Even when talking about "whiteness" as default, we see this when comparing American whiteness to e.g. British whiteness. There are very distinct and noticeable differences which show that there is a thing, there is a quality, a presence there, it's just a presence that has become invisible through sheer familiarity. (I would compare American Whiteness not to blandness, but to... sweetness. Or a specific sugary taste. Like, when I visit the States, I am struck by how sweet all of the food is, even savoury food. Yoghurt, bread, sauces, cereal, tinned beans - everything tasted so highly sugared that I ended up having to go to special 'natural' shops to get unsweetened versions of things, for a taste I was more familiar with!)
When thinking about whiteness in this way, I think it's more helpful to think about it in terms of accent. Everyone - even native speakers - speaks English (or Spanish, or Arabic, or other multi-nation languages) with an accent. Your own accent is almost never noticeable to you, until confronted with an accent that is different from yours. Accent is always perceived in relation to someone else. There have been various attempts to standardise accents e.g. the whole idea of Received Pronunciation in British English - no one in British actually natively speaks with that accent! But the closer one's accent is to that accent, the less "accented" one's English is supposed to sound. (Even though R.P. is itself an accent, and a forced, unnatural one at that!)
Whiteness is like that; it's conforming to an artificially decided "standard" of an accent which works to make you appear accentless, when really, there is no such thing as speech without accent. There is no such thing as "blandness" in accent. There is just closer or further away from familiarity, or from an artificial standard. Whiteness functions as a cultural standard in the same way.
― Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 18 October 2014 13:52 (nine years ago) link
Yes, that all sounds right to me.
Then I wonder: what is the quality, or presence, of American Whiteness?
I realize that many of you will be laughing at me at this point, and I deserve it. But it's where I was raised, and where I feel culturally alien, and where I keep trying to run away from because it doesn't interest me, and I want to know: what is it that doesn't interest me? It's not that it's bland, it has a presence, a flavor, that's it's own; but what is this flavor?
― droit au butt (Euler), Saturday, 18 October 2014 14:13 (nine years ago) link
I hope we don't find out. Unless we are talking about the relative pallor of someone's skin, we are talking about an illusion.
I'm old enough that I can't get past it as a concept defended and enforced by segregationists.
Was surprised to see Jews included, and some of them don't even look white. The people saying the most racist things probably would not have accepted Jews back in the day. I don't like the fact that these racist whites are being told that these Jews are "white like them".
― Threat Assessment Division (I M Losted), Saturday, 18 October 2014 14:22 (nine years ago) link
I didn't mean bland as in opposed to flavor, just perceived as to have no inherent distinguishable qualities.
lacking strong features or characteristics and therefore uninteresting.
There have been various attempts to standardise accents
In the US, this is the "general american" accent, also known as the broadcaster's accent. A large portion of americans speak generally within its bounds, although there's only a small swath in the midwest where it's the "native" accent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_American
The idea of "whiteness" in the US is completely wrapped up in entrenched monied/patriarchal/political power structures. If you don't sound or look particularly different from a perceived "white" norm then you can fall into it. It is not an inclusionary definition, it is exclusionary. If you can't be defined as "not white" then you're white.
― ⌘-B (mh), Saturday, 18 October 2014 15:34 (nine years ago) link
I guess I should note that "general american" is not an attempt to standardize accent, it's just adoption of a particularly unextravagant accent as a norm for purposes of broadcast news.
― ⌘-B (mh), Saturday, 18 October 2014 15:36 (nine years ago) link
Accent is a good example of whiteness norms - you're expected to assimilate to some "standard" if you want to move up in the world.
A shame this whiteness thing brings up stuff like, "why do black people talk about slavery"? I'm having a major conflict on my Facebook h.s. group over something more subtle - how even allegedly "sensitive" white people prefer to move away from the "inner ring" burbs. The less white these burbs get, the less desirable they are. As in, "I don't want to live near a fried fish joint, my home value will decline." To the point that people I thought were my friends have referred to my neighborhood as "ghetto". If that isn't white...
― Threat Assessment Division (I M Losted), Saturday, 18 October 2014 17:56 (nine years ago) link
So there's this:
http://media.irishcentral.com/images/MI+australia-no-way+Irish+Voice.jpg
― cardamon, Saturday, 18 October 2014 21:45 (nine years ago) link
Eh, this guy talks the talk, but I get the feeling he can't walk the walk. If he's all that's standing between me and the land of the long weekend, I think we're homefree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT12WH4a92w
― how's life, Saturday, 18 October 2014 22:26 (nine years ago) link
http://i.imgur.com/SYoMqBe.jpg
― pplains, Sunday, 19 October 2014 04:09 (nine years ago) link
hasnt been updated in 2 days, seems like a record, nice work america
― deej loaf (D-40), Monday, 20 October 2014 06:31 (nine years ago) link
ok, here's a new one... 🎺 let's play Is This Racist!:
popular denver burrito chain with several locations plans expansion to nearby ft collins, whereupon residents protest its name, "Illegal Pete's"...
http://www.coloradoan.com/story/money/2014/10/22/residents-ask-illegal-petes-change-name/17738197/
protestors claim that using the word 'illegal' in reference to a person in any manner evokes the term 'illegals', a pejorative often used targeting immigrants
the owner claims that the word 'illegal' was chosen for its connotations to cool underground activities or whatever and has nothing to do with immigration or anything of the sort
you heard what each side has to say, now it's up to YOU to decide... IS!.. THIS!.... RACIST!?!
― sleepingbag, Friday, 24 October 2014 01:39 (nine years ago) link
You don't really have a stellar track record on these things so I'll go ahead and call it for you: it's racist
― 龜, Friday, 24 October 2014 02:19 (nine years ago) link
who knows what the "intent" originally was, but I say when a business name is at least equally open to racist and non-racist interpretations, probably best change the name
― my jaw left (Hurting 2), Friday, 24 October 2014 02:38 (nine years ago) link
Especially if you're a capitalist.
― pplains, Friday, 24 October 2014 03:44 (nine years ago) link
Ha ha hahaha...anyone remember Sambo's?
― Threat Assessment Division (I M Losted), Friday, 24 October 2014 12:35 (nine years ago) link
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/30/pancakes-and-pickaninnies-the-saga-of-sambo-s-the-racist-restaurant-chain-america-once-loved.html
― Threat Assessment Division (I M Losted), Friday, 24 October 2014 12:37 (nine years ago) link
Sambo may refer to:
Sambo (racial term), a term for a person with African heritage that is now considered offensiveSambo (martial art), developed in the USSRSambo, the main character in the 1899 book The Story of Little Black SamboSambo's, a restaurant chainSambo's Grave, grave of a slave (died 1736) at Sunderland Point in Lancashire, EnglandTG Sambo, a Korean computer manufacturerSambomaster, a Japanese rock bandSammanboende (or samboende), a Swedish term for people in cohabitationSambo, the name in Ecuador for cucurbita ficifolia, a type of gourdSambo, a romanized term for the three ancestral treasures of Chinese cultureSambo, Irish and Australian slang term for sandwich
yis ruin everything rly
― local eire man (darraghmac), Friday, 24 October 2014 12:44 (nine years ago) link
we say 'sanga' instead now
― mit iodine (electricsound), Saturday, 25 October 2014 00:03 (nine years ago) link
ttytt we favour sangidge ourselves
― local eire man (darraghmac), Saturday, 25 October 2014 00:11 (nine years ago) link
Brown hand shaking white hand to illustrate low crime rate (not sure if link will work). Pasadena's tech website (Innovate Pasadena).
http://i1.wp.com/www.innovatepasadena.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/IP_City-of-Innovation.png?resize=940%2C2737
― nickn, Saturday, 25 October 2014 00:22 (nine years ago) link
Open in new tab and click for full size.
― nickn, Saturday, 25 October 2014 00:23 (nine years ago) link
wrapper turnt sanga
― k3vin k., Saturday, 25 October 2014 02:10 (nine years ago) link
^ made this same pun in my head
― 龜, Saturday, 25 October 2014 02:39 (nine years ago) link
so, annie lennox, huh. like...you can tell the media that beyoncé is not a real feminist, OR you can cover "strange fruit" on your new album, but doing both in quick succession seems like a terrible idea.
― you little affront to god (reddening), Saturday, 25 October 2014 04:05 (nine years ago) link
whoa wtf
― ⌘-B (mh), Saturday, 25 October 2014 12:56 (nine years ago) link
I just found this in a box of pictures and letters. From Pendelton, Oregon, c. 1979.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5608/15004800363_9602bbf012_c.jpg
― Je55e, Saturday, 25 October 2014 17:45 (nine years ago) link
I've never been to Pendleton but I live sort of near it, and I swear I've heard stories about it having a big kkk presence that went on much longer than you might have expected.
― joygoat, Saturday, 25 October 2014 18:14 (nine years ago) link
Weird. We lived near Pilot Rock. Do you know it?
― Je55e, Saturday, 25 October 2014 18:35 (nine years ago) link
I used to eat at sambos when I was a kid. Very scared of the dude in the tiger costume, according to my mom. I guess they all got turned into Denny's and coco's. From wikipedia:
Sambo's is a restaurant, formerly an American restaurant chain, started in 1957 by Sam Battistone, Sr. and Newell Bohnett. Though the name was taken from portions of the names of its founders, the chain soon found itself associated with The Story of Little Black Sambo. Battistone, Sr. and Bohnett capitalized on the coincidence by decorating the walls of the restaurants with scenes from the book, including a dark-skinned boy, tigers, and a pale, magical unicycle-riding man called "The Treefriend".
― the late great, Saturday, 25 October 2014 19:11 (nine years ago) link
apparently the original sambo's (in Santa Barbara) is still open
― the late great, Saturday, 25 October 2014 19:14 (nine years ago) link
oh whoops I didn't see the daily beast article
― the late great, Saturday, 25 October 2014 19:15 (nine years ago) link
That's funny, I remember the controversy. We grew up in such a liberal, PC area that it was waaay bad to eat at Sambo's. I had to eat there once and was mortified, afraid my super liberal church would get wind of it, my civil rights cred tarnished. It was like a Denny's. then Denny's got reamed for discrimination. With the Aunt Jemima suit and all, maybe pancakes are hopelessly racist.
― Threat Assessment Division (I M Losted), Saturday, 25 October 2014 21:57 (nine years ago) link
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11174663/Paris-Opera-cast-refuse-to-perform-for-veiled-woman.html
Seriously, I'd be happier in a world were niqabs were a thing of the past but I would be also quite happy if an opera choir didn't mind my clothing enough to refuse to perform and make a huge deal out of it. This reeks of typical french islamophobia, subtly veiled under woman rights issues and it makes me sick.
― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 25 October 2014 23:54 (nine years ago) link
i remember eating at sambos! Been a helluva long time.
― Steve 'n' Seagulls and Flock of Van Dammes (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 26 October 2014 03:33 (nine years ago) link
There used to be a Sambo's over where the Walgreen's is now. They tried to pass off Sambo as being some sort of Indian boy, but we knew.
The high school Denny's was never the same once they replaced the cigarette vending machine with one of those stuffed animal crane games.
― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Friday, January 13, 2006 11:17 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― pplains, Sunday, 26 October 2014 03:51 (nine years ago) link
I remember drinking the most refreshing glass of water in that Sambo's. Maybe I was a kid and had never bothered to drink water in a restaurant before.
― pplains, Sunday, 26 October 2014 03:52 (nine years ago) link
I came across a cache of old Sambo's
― Starland Vocal Gland (sic), Sunday, 26 October 2014 07:15 (nine years ago) link
my mom worked at a Sambo's when I was little (prob. 1978-1979). They had classic country on the jukebox and one of the waitresses gave me a stuffed rabbit for christmas.
― sarahell, Sunday, 26 October 2014 09:16 (nine years ago) link
I mean this is like... not v good, right? If not deliberate then at least pretty unfortunate?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8x81Rpl_FA
― Belami Young (Stevie D(eux)), Friday, 31 October 2014 01:31 (nine years ago) link
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ben-stein-obama-racist
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 3 November 2014 15:29 (nine years ago) link
Wow that dude has aged badly
― 龜, Monday, 3 November 2014 15:32 (nine years ago) link
he's about 70. his ideas sure haven't aged well.
― Steve 'n' Seagulls and Flock of Van Dammes (forksclovetofu), Monday, 3 November 2014 21:53 (nine years ago) link
"ideas"
― Οὖτις, Monday, 3 November 2014 22:02 (nine years ago) link
ideology and trivia
― Steve 'n' Seagulls and Flock of Van Dammes (forksclovetofu), Monday, 3 November 2014 22:19 (nine years ago) link
Has there been discussion of that Lena Dunham/Lil Jon vote spot that ran recently? IDK if it's overtly racist, but something subtly rubbed me the wrong way about it, with the 'voters' being mostly white or at least college-y looking. Maybe it's just a spot narrowly targeted to that demographic and I'm reading too much into it, but it felt a little too much like Lil Jon was a prop.
― my jaw left (Hurting 2), Thursday, 6 November 2014 20:32 (nine years ago) link