Serial - the podcast *spoilers*

SK is clearly a likeablist

But also, if we're saying that criminals change their statements to cover up their tracks, then why didn't Adnan do the same?

Because different criminals are different and their situations aren't really comparable.

Sorry still stuck on this Jay works alone scenario because my mind is boggling at it. Let's pretend that this is all Jay and it's a crazy crime of passion or whatever and then he's like "woah better cover this shit up" and he starts doing that methodically and at the same time starts framing Adnan, calling Nisha, arranging for the phone to be near Leakin Park cell towers, telling Jen that night that Adnan did it, etc, but why do any of that? Why bring Adnan into it at all? Most of these actions result in the policy getting to Jay! And Jay has no way of knowing that Adnan won't have an alibi, no way of knowing that Adnan will end up being a total patsy, no way of knowing that he'll get to walk. Was he just counting on being the luckiest criminal ever?

Also Adnan has no alibi. It's not way better than anyones. He literally cannot remember where he was basically the entire day and one person (other than Jay) remembers seeing him that afternoon.

Also Adnan has no alibi. It's not way better than anyones. He literally cannot remember where he was basically the entire day and one person (other than Jay) remembers seeing him that afternoon.

― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Thursday, December 11, 2014 11:12 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and like SK said herself, how could you not remember anything about a day when the police call you and tell you your ex-girlfriend is missing?

i think he was so confident that a)jay wouldn't tell the police anything b)even if he did, no one would believe him that he thought a simple deny deny deny/i don't remember anything strategy would work. i also think having jay borrow his cell phone and car was a half-assed way of covering/muddying his tracks.

Adnans 'alibi', which anyways is better than Jay's

Neither of them have an alibi.
Jay confessed, and Adnan has no alibi other than Asia MacLean, and she has recanted - and it would't necessarily let him off the hook even if it did check out.

is there any actual forensic evidence for Hae's time of death?

This is a really key question - and something that I think was blatantly misrepresented in Serial, which makes a huge deal about the "21 minutes" in which the crime must have happened. BUT that 21-minute timeline comes from Jay and the Best Buy call - both of which Serial argues forcefully are unreliable. I understand they're making the point about how the prosecution's timeline seems impossible - but the inference is that if Adnan could not have killed Hae in those 22 minutes he must be innocent - which isn't true.

From Episode 1:
According to Jay's story and the cellphone records, she was dead by 2:36 PM. So sometime in those 21 minutes, between 2:15 and 2:36, she was strangled. So that's obviously the same window Adnan needed to account for. To quote Adnan, "My case lived and died in those 21 minutes."

But we know Jay's timeline ultimately does not add up - which leads us to believe Jay might be minimizes or omitting his own role in Hae's death - why should we believe Hae had to have been killed in that 21-minute window? If Jay is lying about his role, that's the part of the timeline he is MOST likely to be lying about. So again, it just does not prove Adnan's innocence if this story doesn't check out... and Adnan's vague account of this period (basically "I was probably at the library because sometimes I checked email" at that time and "I never missed track" later) certainly doesn't amount to an alibi.

But I will say again because I'm feeling guilty for trashing the show and playing internet Columbo for my own entertainment now: the big truth that Serial revealed stands: this is a miscarriage of justice. Prosecution put up a shitty case and pulled some dubious moves, and the defence did a bad job. Whether he did it or not, it seems like he did not get a fair trial.

i'm glad SK is doing this show instead of you guys

xp I think he got a fair trial. At same time I don't think burden of proof was met, but it's always easy to Monday Morning quarterback these things.

No way did he get a fair trial - at least one juror admits totally judging Adnan for not testifying, which jurors were specifically told not to do, and given the evidence and testimonies, and the fact that Jay was cut a deal that was never revealed in court, I can't believe a jury could legitimately find Adnan guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt".

If this is not a fair trial than basically no trial in the United States is a fair trial.

Seriously prosecution didn't do anything completely egregious to taint the case.
His defense was able.
And the jury was unanimous.

I don't see the misconduct or inequity here. Adnan caught some bad breaks and obviously for the money he was paying his defense could have been sharper, but to say this was a miscarriage of justice? I don't see it.

a jury ignoring instructions/nullifying doesn't mean an unfair trial. If the judge had not given the instruction, the trial would not be fair.

By the way I did read about the Whitman case. That case is so messed up it makes this one seem tame by comparison.

Sorry Witman case.

wow you all make me feel like such a bleeding heart!

I'm looking forward to next week's finale, and next December's HuffPost story about how that dude from Serial is still in jail.

If this is not a fair trial than basically no trial in the United States is a fair trial.

― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), 12. december 2014 17:46 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, amen. And it isn't, and no one ever is, it seems. US justice is completely fucked up.

i suspect that jury instructions are more often not followed than they are followed, but i thought the jury was aware of jay's deal. maybe i'm misremembering. i remember the one juror expressing disbelief that he didn't go to jail, but i thought there had been testimony about it. i feel like SK started with the conclusion that the defense did a bad job, but hasn't proven it. there are things that could have been done differently, and the attorney's style was really grating, but i'm not persuaded that she really fucked up.

I think it was more that SK started with Adnan's family's allegation that the attorney had fucked up, but then concluded that she'd done ok. Except maybe for not following up on Asia.

yeah

Did Jay have any motive to kill Hae/any motive to say Adnan did it, if Jay didn't and a third party did?

there is no evidence of a motive on jay's part, just speculation that he was cheating on stephanie, hae knew about and was threatening to tell.

http://i.imgur.com/pq88ulD.jpg

There's an "h" in there if you listen closer.

sounds like HHKREEMP? to me

KHIMP at the very least

Right? Just like my dn.

exactly

*delivers hifive*

internet very much in character looking at a show about a girl's murder and wondering "How can we insert 'mail kimp' into some Linkin Park lyrics for our tumblr?"

^

I understand the feeling of distaste about a lot of the Serial jokes but I think it's inaccurate to say Serial is about a girl's murder. It's really about a man's conviction. Obviously Hae's murder is central to that story and I'm not in any way trying to diminish that but the podcast just isn't about her. It's about Adnan.

well, yeah. that's the main problem with it. I didn't have a problem with that Best Buy tweet, but some of the hipster stuff is lame:

https://41.media.tumblr.com/48ba39102e5ece9209f31c7a84300a5e/tumblr_ng2dko0kH21t0d7sno1_500.jpg
http://36.media.tumblr.com/ea6b52083d06b538af1f6fb9deae1cd6/tumblr_nf0414Zgds1qicn50o1_500.jpg

woah that's brutal, what the fuck is wrong with people?

I don't get that second one at all.

Linkin Park had a song called In The End It Doesn't Even Matter. It's a hideously formed "joke" based on Leakin Park, where the body of Hae Minh Lee was buried.

Leakin park is pronounced like Linkin Park in a Baltimore accent

One thing that struck me about this whole thing is the very neutral, professional tone that SK and a lot of the interviewees have - is that an American thing or is it just the amount of time that's gone by since 1999?

Actually dunno about 'professional' there

huh? she seems very casual and informal to me, especially with friends and family of Adnan

what you're hearing is know in America as "the NPR voice"

xp yeah - that's what I mean, casual, neutral, sort of thing. Ah and there's a name for it

At first I was honestly hearing that tone and thinking it was definitely a sign of guilt but I think it might be more that Americans are better at having confident conversations w/strangers where they come across as relaxed

Linkin Park had a song called In The End It Doesn't Even Matter. It's a hideously formed "joke" based on Leakin Park, where the body of Hae Minh Lee was buried.

― Brio2, Monday, December 15, 2014 3:19 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Leakin park is pronounced like Linkin Park in a Baltimore accent

― cardamon, Monday, December 15, 2014 3:20 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I knew all of this except for the name of the Linkin Park song. Thanks!

And yes that is a hideously formed joke, tastelessness aside. Also it's gross considering the context.

Oh people.

A further question from me is, should I get into This American Life? Like, what is it?

It's a podcast that offers stories (mostly non-fiction, but fiction, too, sometimes) on a theme each week. It's varied enough in its subject matter that I think it's worth looking through the archives and listening to episodes with themes/subjects that you find interesting. Sometimes they do really good investigative journalism type stuff, sometimes it's more like memoir, sometimes it's hilarious, sometimes it's infuriating.

I'm sure if you asked us to name one episode that we thought encapsulated the spirit of TAL, everybody would pick something different, but I'm going to rep for this episode because the diner where it is set is literally two blocks from where I'm sitting right now and I eat there a few times a month so I'm quite partial to it - http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/172/24-hours-at-the-golden-apple.

yes!

its been around almost 20 years at this point and really is the cornerstone of the current american public radio style

as far as content, its all over the place. from straight journalism to personal essays to shaggy-dog storytelling to little-known history to standup comedy and fictional storytelling

their own "favorites" page is as good a place to start as any:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/favorites

i feel like ilx as a whole is a little more critical/wary of TAL than your average group of 30+ educated westerners, but when they're good, they're really good

xposts

All of those on the favorites "short list" are really good.