Psychoactive Substances: Rolling UK Politics in The Neo-Con Era

Corbyn did fuck up over the national anthem thing, but not by refusing to sing. If he'd sung, he'd been accused of being a hypocrite, and his accusers would have been right. His mistake was not to prepare the ground beforehand, he could have been unequivocal, explained his position properly rather than creating a situation where the press were all watching his lips during a memorial service waiting to blow something up. It would have blown up beforehand anyway, but it could have been better controlled.

It's not the biggest unforced error he's made, but he has made them. Cameron and Osborne and Brown have made loads of big avoidable fuckups, bigger than anything Corbyn has been responsible for. But when you're going to punished for every little slip, that's all the more reason to try and minimise them - I suspect the problem is that Corbyn is just not a very good mass communicator, and a lot of his supporters and the people he's surrounded himself with don't really get why good communications is even more important in a hostile environment.

Maybe he should be a bit smarter about picking his battles, I dunno. I'd be a bit more blase about all this if I didn't feel like a once-in-a-generation-opportunity wasn't in danger of being squandered.

If enough Labour MPs vote no, then Corbyn will have done the country a huge favour, for which he will obviously get no credit at all.

Like honestly I think xyzzz was just scanning that piece for the tiniest bit of Corbyn criticism to throw his hands up about, if you actually read it properly:

There’s a lesson there for other Labour MPs who aren’t natural Corbyn bedfellows: focus on putting the Tories, rather than their own leadership, on the defensive. The Labour leadership never expected to win: the chaos that ensued is a product of a reluctant figurehead being catapulted into a position of authority with a deeply hostile party machine, parliamentary party and mainstream media. Hence the predictable mistakes, like not singing the national anthem when there are so many other battles to fight; mishandling the admittedly hostile media; and bungling the response to the Paris atrocities. Whether or not Ukip wins in Oldham on Thursday, it has certainly gained as a consequence.

Like if you want to misread that as "not a word on members of the shadow cabinet briefing the right-wing media from meetings" then that's your call.

Why are we even talking about the national anthem thing now anyway?

I just find the behaviour of those who characterise themselves as 'the grown-ups' in Labour UTTERLY CHILDISH. 'Realists' who are no such thing. They'd defeat the government motion very easily if all were minded to vote no, yet the right of the party don't want to hand Corbyn any wins for obvious reasons, but I think they'd have better careers (since they're careerists, fair point) if they worked with him in good faith. Pretty sure no other person doing a job in this country would be allowed/encouraged to contact the media in the middle of a strategy meeting.

Meanwhile, was anyone else watching Newsnight last night? Ridiculous sub-Day Today BAD CORBYN MISSILES graphics, non-stop coverage about Labour rather than digging down into what David Cameron actually wants to do, topped off by an interview with Yves Saint Laurent's widower/business partner Pierre Bergé where Stephen Smith actually showed this venerable old French fashion man a photo of Corbyn in his shorts/socks combo and asked for comments. O RLY?

Oh yeah I hope Corbyn and the electorate are taking names of people who would happily bomb an unstable country in order to undermine their leader. I think everyone's agreed that the 'realists' here are awful people.

None of this would be an issue if Cameron was confident of getting the support of all his MPs, the fact that he isn't is going largely uncommented-upon.

I don't agree with most of that. I really doubt Corbyn or any of his team ever knew the movement of his lips was going to be picked up. Should he have moderated the angle of his bow at the poppy bash too?

And: "wishy-washy" to say the least. There are members in the shadow cab who pretend to work w/Corbyn to polish their CVs waiting for the day he is kicked. What's Owen Jones saying about this? Oh, not v much.

(Burnham has been ok I think, swallowed up the defeat and seems to be genuinely working with Corbyn.)

xposts = Owen is mentioning the national anthem thing as a 'mistake' Matt, and he hasn't really challenged the shadow cabinet sources that are popping up all over the place, the briefings post every PLP meeting.

Meanwhile, was anyone else watching Newsnight last night? Ridiculous sub-Day Today BAD CORBYN MISSILES graphics, non-stop coverage about Labour rather than digging down into what David Cameron actually wants to do, topped off by an interview with Yves Saint Laurent's widower/business partner Pierre Bergé where Stephen Smith actually showed this venerable old French fashion man a photo of Corbyn in his shorts/socks combo and asked for comments. O RLY?

So glad I missed this.

I really doubt Corbyn or any of his team ever knew the movement of his lips was going to be picked up.

It should have been completely obvious to them that this was what would happen.

#jesusWept

It was his first nationwide appearance since he assumed the leadership - of course it was going to be analysed and overanalysed.

Like it's obvious that neither you nor I think it's important, its infuriating that the average person in this country is more informed about the angle of Corbyn's bow than they are about, say, cuts to mental health services, but a very basic part of leading a party is anticipating what your enemy is going to say about you, and no one has the luxury of just not really thinking too hard about that part.

Particularly if your enemy includes most of the newspapers.

haha I really don't give a shit (like I said the angle of his bow was picked at the Remembrance Sunday ceremony, singing and bowing is standing for lots of other things), its more about Owen's re-use of it in that piece - with friends like these etc. xps

Agree with MDC and YMOF; pretty much anyone operating in UK politics at MP/above level knows they've got to sing the songs and do the traditional royal obsequies, starting with the oath to serve The Queen they give upon arriving in Westminster. Maybe Corbyn doesn't want to do the spin thing - and that's fine - but subtle things like awareness of how following customs may play out, wearing clothes that fit, and front-loading one's message so as not to be swept up in manufactured shitstorms that blatantly ignore nuance, that would be a start.

It's not even quite knowing you've got to, but knowing that if you won't, it'll be news.

He should also bow properly #neverForget xp

I think he was elected, at least partly, on a "not playing that stupid game" ticket so I think it's fair that he sticks two fingers up at singing the songs and getting the makeover. When he tried to play the game by spinning his way out of the anthem thing by claiming to be deep in reverie or w/e he fucked up imo. The people who pushed him into power would have fully accepted him saying that as an atheist/agnostic republican it would be dishonest to sing/pray to a being he doesn't believe in to save an institution he opposes.

Couldn't believe that Metro cover this morning.

FYI I didn't say he should have sung the anthem (there would have been a furore even if he had), but that he should have prepared better for it in advance.

Ultimately his aim should be to create, forcibly if need be, a situation where he is listened to on matters of substance, by people who otherwise wouldn't be listening to him. Everything he does should be in service of achieving that aim. That will require a top-class communications function and a proper functioning party machine. But I think Jones is right in saying you do need to know when to pick your battles in order to do that.

He should also be prepared to lay down the law to people pissing and whining, he has the mandate to do that, and stress that anyone publically complaining is going against the wishes of the party's members. Basically, he needs his own version of a Clause Four moment, but I think he's too devoted to a kind of woolly pluralism that allows everyone else to mouth off.

The oath to the Queen is a point of entry not a license to do this and that.

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I think its in JC plans to change certain party rules (er bring back Clause Four) and that kind of thing (know the Unions want him to implement certain changes -- and then probably get rid of him), ultimately leading to a wider cultural change in the party.

In the 3 months or so JC is giving voice to a pacifist, anti-imperialist positions and is being heard on it just by being leader, and carrying on. Re-aligning the party right now is a challenge (probably extending the olive branch in his shadow cab appointments is looking bad but there aren't enough ppl in the PLP to back him fully idk)

Dan Hodges says party members who threaten MPs with deselection are bullying them. I imagine these MPs on the doorstep: "do I have your vote?" "no." "stop bullying me!"

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/01/labour-oldham-west-byelection-jeremy-corbyn

Disaffected voters either don’t know who he is, in which case he’s “just another politician”, or hear him speaking about socialism and solidarity and wonder what he’s blathering on about. Both groups will know full well what his and John McDonnell’s views on the IRA are.

If voters in those groups don't know who JC and JMc are then why would they know their views on the IRA? xp

If his data is so shit hot why wasn't he the lone voice calling the last election?

"The white working class in Oldham are, as we know, all racist and stupid..."

Is there any country that anyone here is aware of where the leader of the opposition would not be criticized for not singing the national anthem?

the small c conservatism, royalism, and brit/english-nat tendencies of large swathes of the british electorate are not worth alienating over frivolous matters when the same people could potentially be swung by labour positions on substantive issues such as tax credits, housing, education and the nhs.

"by labour positions on substantive issues such as tax credits, housing, education and the nhs."

but jim, pre-Corbyn they were practically indistinguishable from the Conservative party

Yes and I'm arguing that he should focus on a clearly "labour value" driven policy but with compromises over the superficialities.

I. E. Singing the vile dirge

Sorry I misread you a bit there

i don't think republicanism is a minor principle that should be tossed aside just like that? i mean it IS a substantive thing to stand firm on. republican gestures in mainstream public life have been sorely fucking needed for some time and it was excellent seeing them from corbyn

every time i think about the pro-bombing labour blairites i get actually angry, imagine using a fucking war for your own careerist internal party political manoeuvring purposes

(i don't get the sense that public opinion is pro-bombing, either)

Unconvinced that royalism is especially strong or deep-rooted as it's routinely made out to be tbh, or that 'large swathes' of the population really give that much of a fuck about the singing of God Save the Queen.

presumably the best selling daily newspapers just spout about the royals non-stop as a provocation to their readerships.

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/122/MonarchyRoyal-Family-Trends-Monarchy-v-Republic-19932013.aspx?view=wide

Actually I sometimes think they're trying to convince them of their worth and importance, though this always seems more true of the BBC's coverage of the royals.

It's not super-strong in London or in my friendship groups, but the breederish cupcakes-and-bunting generation just below mine are soppy about the Queen and royals their age - and woe betide any republican in a leadership position in British politics who challenges it because the jingo wing (jingo wings! XD) jumps on it and makes it A THING. It's just a wasp's nest you can avoid poking.

Fuck the royals but they are not even in the top fifty things that are wrong with this country at the moment. What they stand for might be, but that's embodied in many other things as well, some of which Corbyn might be in a position to actually do something about.

I don't seriously believe that there can be very many Labour MPs who think that their electoral prospects can be improved by yet another war in the Middle East, unless they think it's going to completely destroy Cameron's premiership, or unless they are complete cretins.

Fuck the royals but they are not even in the top fifty things that are wrong with this country at the moment.

And yet they will always be No.1 with a bullet for me.

Any ideas of % of labour mps would vote yes on this?

estimates started at 100, were subsequently revised down to 60 following corbyn's push back. think the current estimate lies somewhere between 30 and 60.

43% according to Corbyn but likely to be in the high 20s when it comes to the crunch.

Xp

You must admit that Elizabeth II has been exceptionally good at propping up the throne via canny public relations. Hardest working woman in show business?

LOL Lib Dems have also agreed to vote for bombing. xp

Former party leader Nick Clegg told Sky News on Tuesday evening that he and his successor, Tim Farron, felt that “on balance, it is better to take action rather than pursue a course of inaction”.

Statement might as well have read "hey, better to regret something you did than something you didn't do".

Farron was like a wince-inducing vicar on HIGNFY this week

Given that it's highly unlikely to have any impact, positive or negative, Clegg's ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ statement is about as compelling as any in favour.

David Cameron has urged Tory MPs to take a stand on fighting terror on the eve of a vote in Parliament on authorising UK airstrikes in Syria.

The prime minister called on them not to "sit on their hands" and side with Jeremy Corbyn and others he labelled "a bunch of terrorist sympathisers".

gross

hardly becoming of his office to talk shit like that on an issue that seems to have a lot of ppl honestly divided. classic david cameron, however

Behind closed doors but obv leaked on purpose.

Yes, he'll have said that at precisely 7pm so that it leaks just in time to be the lead story in tomorrow's papers. ARSEHOLE.

I would like Jeremy Corbyn to go full-on Demon Headmaster tomorrow. He probably won't, but...