Psychoactive Substances: Rolling UK Politics in The Neo-Con Era

Boris is out (according to the BBC)

I'm guessing the answer is 'no', but are there any ilxors who intend to vote leave? I wonder if Corbyn would be campaigning for brexit alongside Dennis Skinner and Kelvin Hopkins if he hadn't been elected leader.

i'm minded to vote leave at the moment

Will either not vote or vote leave. To be honest the only thing preventing a leave vote is my distaste for some of the people I'd be voting alongside (NV excepted of course)

yeah it will involve some very unpleasant bedfellows but i feel like the leftist argument to leave is pretty strong

Owen Hatherley otm that whatever qualms people have about the EU as a project, the concrete repercussions of leaving will be deportations, worse employment laws, the restriction of human rights, etc, etc.

the EU isn't the ECHR and the referendum won't involve leaving the latter

and seeing either as a check on the worst excesses of a Tory government feels unlikely to me

The only reason the Tories haven't pressed for leaving the ECHR is that membership of the EU effectively requires it, even if they are distinct institutions. They have mooted it enough times to view it as entirely plausible if not inevitable. The UK is also currently bound by separate EU human rights legislation.

The EU is only ever going to be as good as its constituent governments and the current lot are pretty reprehensible and the institution is a very long way from perfect. However disgusting the treatment of Greece was last summer, it's hard to see how Britain leaving would make any difference to that, and I can't think of any major reasons why the country would be improved by leaving.

I suppose it would theoretically make a more left wing form of UK government a possibility, but a considerably more right wing Britain is by far the bigger likelihood and the bigger risk. The short and medium term economic fallout could be really quite bad as well.

The Tories are constantly stymied by the EU on worker rights and directly or indirectly on human rights. The argument that both could also stymie a democratic leftist movement is correct, the idea that it doesn't inhibit the current government is not. Xp

wouldn't leaving the ECHR mean leaving the Council of Europe and does that seem plausible? i'm not questioning that there will be negative impacts of leaving the EU, i'm saying that it has ceased to be a net benefit to those of us who want genuine economic change in the world

ShariVari very much otm.

it's nice to see people articulating some sort of positive case for continuing with the EU, but the case at the moment looks too reformist/Fabian for my taste. i may not want to side with Gove or UKIP but i've got no desire to be on the side of Blairites and the Lib Dems either

Yes, it would mean leaving the Council of Europe but that doesn't look like much of a stretch if already cut loose from the EU. The negative impacts would be huge and immediate. All the ridiculous, regressive laws the Tories float would become viable. I appreciate that the long term goal of genuine economic change is unlikely to be accomplished under the EU but trading maternity rights, statutory holiday rights, redundancy rights, anti-discrimination rights, the rights and security of hundreds of thousands of European citizens who have settled and built a life in the UK, etc, for something that remains abstract and can still be worked towards doesn't seem a positive course of action.

Any appetite for a Third Way?

:) don't suppose that will be on offer

the other advantage of joining the leave campaign is that you might get invited out to mcdonald's with David Davis, Kate Hoey and Peter Bone

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CafdtBXWIAADWL_.jpg

feel sorry for those two guys in the top right hand corner, just trying to have a quiet meal

since when is mcdonalds a byob establishment

The EU is only ever going to be as good as its constituent governments

I wouldn't entirely agree with this in so far as the nature of the EU means that any government has to keep in mind that in any directive produced by the EU, their citizens are as likely to be the 'them' as the 'us'.

since when is mcdonalds a byob establishment

yeah, this is... weird? taking a bottle of wine in to have with your big mac?

Seems pretty European imo.

That expression on David Davis's face. What can you say, the man's a pro.

This is good from Alex Andreou on Twitter: "The EU has been corrupted into an instrument of austerity. To empower those blackmailing it further in that direction is not a rebellion."

well, you could read that either way.

If breadth is more important than depth then yes I can see how staying in presents many more exciting possibilities for imposing austerity.

The focus on austerity rather than regulation is probably misleading unless you are in one of the handful of countries severely constrained by the EU on spending. The UK's austerity programme is the UK's decision in a way that the Greek austerity programme is not. I don't think the UK staying, leaving or renegotiating is going to have a major impact either way on either policy.

The key divide atm seems to be between Osborne and others who see the UK's economic outlook as being dependent on the stability and certainty membership brings and those who are prepared to sacrifice that in the short term to make long-term gains. There's a perception on the more traditionally Thatcherite wing of the party that a country that relies so much on the service industry / financial services can't be constrained by EU law. The fear is that if Singapore, HK, Shanghai, Abu Dhabi or wherever can offer marginal benefits on 'ease of doing business', the sector will shift there in the long term. The main barrier is that those aren't places that people with money necessarily want to live. Combine the culture industry / lifestyle of London and the Home Counties with a sweeping deregulation of the rights of workers and you can further entrench London as the dominant global city.

The Britannia Unchained report is a useful guide to the thinking.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/aug/22/britannia-unchained-rise-of-new-tory-right

Kwarteng, Patel and Raab are the crux of the Leave campaign if you ignore the Little Englanders who want to bring back imperial measurements / hanging.

The talented and hard-working have nothing to fear," says Dominic Raab, Conservative MP for Esher and Walton, with just the faintest hint of menace.

talented and hard-working junior doctors across the country breathe a sigh of relief

All the contestants for Britain's Got Talent stand that little bit easier in the audition queue, and feel that little bit more empowered...

Priti Patel is talented? And I've been told that Kwasi Kwarteng does indeed work very hard... at chatting up women in the British Library.

Johnson's overnight switch from 'I think we should leave the EU' to 'I think you should make me PM and we will talk about it' might not be well thought through.

Not forgetting the switch of the night before from 'I think stay in the EU' to 'I think we should leave the EU'.

I doubt he has any particularly strong opinions either way, but he first came to my attention as an MP as a representative of Eurosceptics for Clarke in 2001 or thereabouts. His campaigning for Brexit is hardly a massive surprise.

Any second thoughts are presumably related to Sterling having its biggest fall since 2010 today.

He wasn't much of a Eurosceptic when he was Mayor of London, no surprise there.

He still is!

the rights and security of hundreds of thousands of European citizens who have settled and built a life in the UK

How many could really be deported in the event of brexit? Even putting through a plan would be difficult.

Yeah but their rights and security could certainly be under threat- many ways to fuck w forrins short of deportation.

^ Yes, it would create huge insecurity even for people allowed to stay.

Unless the UK signs up to EU regulations as an external party that require free movement, potentially lots of them would have to leave. The objective the government has set is to reduce net immigration to five figures and the only way to do that is clamping down on EU citizens living and working here. Realistically, I'd expect a transition period followed by the kind of strict controls around minimum earnings that are already in place for other nationalities. Anyone on a medium-to-low wage would lose the right to remain. I would imagine Irish ppl would be excluded for historical reasons and you would retain a lot of well paid professionals but hundreds of thousands of others would have to leave.

"I would imagine Irish ppl would be excluded for historical reasons"

The historically high number of Brits claiming the dole while exploring their artistic side in West cork

Ireland to be used as UK's hostage during seperation negotiations

Let us leave and we'll take Ireland with us.

Speaking as a Scot or as a Brit? It's relevant before I go back to the lads with the offer

OMG OMG OMG *can't even*

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/12745974_1523902177906095_2918905926473947493_n.jpg

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/12745974_1523902177906095_2918905926473947493_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=394648108464dea0a74c05ead426bdfa&oe=5725BE7D

This country.

Sunday trading vote looks set to be very tight

always been torn on this: it's shit for anyone who works in retail, but of course, f the established church &c. &c.

yeah exackly, letting people do what they want when they want = good but businesses isn't people, I guess in the end it becomes a minor sideshow, bomb a shopping mall imo