Psychoactive Substances: Rolling UK Politics in The Neo-Con Era

Oh, and yes a suspension for Ken Livingstone is probably the right thing to do.

Can't we stick him in a Trappist monastery somewhere?

Mordy tell us more of what you think on this k tx bye:

Ken Livingstone says he has never heard anyone in Labour say anything antisemitic

Ken Livingstone, the Labour former mayor of London, has defended Naz Shah in provocative terms in an interview on BBC Radio London this morning. Here are the key points.

Livingstone said that Naz Shah’s comments were “over the top” but that he had never heard anyone in the Labour party say anything antisemitic in the last 47 years.

She’s a deep critic of Israel and its policies. Her remarks were over the top but she’s not anti-Semitic. I’ve been in the Labour party for 47 years; I’ve never heard anyone say anything anti-Semitic. I’ve heard a lot of criticism of the state of Israel and its abuse of Palestinians but I’ve never heard anyone say anything anti-Semitic.It’s completely over the top but it’s not anti-Semitic.

He said Hitler was originally a supporter of Zionism “before he went mad”.

Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews.

He said it was important to remember the context of Shah’s remarks. She was speaking “at a time when there was another brutal Israeli attack on the Palestinians”, he said.

He said the Israeli government appeared to be guilty of war crimes, but that it avoided criticism because “double standards” applied.

There’s one stark fact that virtually no one in the British media ever reports, in almost all these conflicts the death toll is usually between 60 and 100 Palestinians killed for every Israeli. Now, any other country doing that would be accused of war crimes but it’s like we have a double standard about the policies of the Israeli government.

He said “the Israel lobby” smeared anyone who criticised Israel as antisemitic.

There’s been a very well-orchestrated campaign by the Israel lobby to smear anybody who criticises Israeli policy as anti-Semitic. I had to put up with 35 years of this.

He claimed that Lord Levy had told him that one of Levy’s friends had compared Jeremy Corbyn to Hitler.

After Jeremy became leader I was having a chat with Michael Levy and he said he was very worried because one of his friends who was Jewish had come to him and said ‘the election of Jeremy Corbyn is exactly the same as the first step to the rise of Adolf Hitler to power’.

He said Corbyn was victim of a smear campaign.

Frankly, there’s been an attempt to smear Jeremy Corbyn and his associates as anti-Semitic from the moment he became leader. The simple fact is we have the right to criticise what is one of the most brutal regimes going in the way it treats the Palestinians.

LOL

According to Channel 4 News’s Michael Crick, the Labour MP John Mann told Ken Livingstone to his face outside a recording studio (it looks like Millbank from the picture) that he was “a fucking disgrace”.

Mordy tell us more of what you think on this k tx bye:

he sounds like a jerk but i don't know what else to expect from the innovator of the livingston formulation:

In February 2005, Ken Livingstone, then the mayor of London, became involved in an apparently trivial late night argument with a reporter after a party at City Hall. Oliver Finegold asked him how the party had been. Livingstone was angry because he felt Finegold was intruding. After a little banter to and fro, in which the reporter said that he was only trying to do his job, Livingstone retorted by asking him whether he had previously been a ‘German war criminal’. Finegold replied that he hadn’t, and that he was Jewish, and that he was offended by the suggestion. Livingstone went on to insist that Finegold was behaving just like a ‘German war criminal’, that his newspaper, The Standard, ‘was a load of scumbags and reactionary bigots’ and that it had a record of supporting Fascism.

Instead of apologizing for his comment in the sober light of day and moving on, Livingstone treated the publication of this exchange as a political opportunity rather than a gaffe. He wrote an article criticizing Ariel Sharon, then the Prime Minister of Israel. In that article he responded to charges of antisemitism which had been made in relation to the Finegold affair with the following words:

‘For far too long the accusation of antisemitism has been used against anyone who is critical of the policies of the Israeli government, as I have been.’ (Livingstone 2006)

This is the Livingstone Formulation. It is a response to a charge of antisemitism. It is a rhetorical device which enables the user to refuse to engage with the charge made. It is a mirror which bounces back an accusation of antisemitism against anybody who makes it. It contains a counter-charge of dishonest Jew- ish (or ‘Zionist’) conspiracy.

The Livingstone Formulation does two things. Firstly, it implicitly denies that there is a distinction between criticism of Israel on the one hand, which is widely accepted as being legitimate, and discourse and action about which, by contrast, there is concern relating to its alleged connection to antisemitism, on the other hand. The Livingstone Formulation conflates everything, both criticism of Israel but also other things which are allegedly not so legitimate, such as repeatedly insulting a Jewish reporter by comparing him to a Nazi, into the category of legitimate criticism of Israel.

Secondly, the Livingstone Formulation does not simply accuse anyone who raises the issue of contemporary antisemitism of being wrong, it also accuses them of bad faith: ‘the accusation of antisemitism has been used against anyone who is critical ...’ [my italics]. Not an honest mistake, but a secret, common plan to try to de-legitimize criticism by means of an instrumental use of a charge of antisemitism. Crying wolf. This is an allegation of malicious intent made against the (unspecified) people who raise concerns about 51 antisemitism. It is not possible to ‘use’ ‘the accusation of antisemitism’ in order to delegitimize criticism of Israel, without dishonest intent.

John Mann, another one for the monastery.

What a fucking dick he is.

Happy Ed Balls Day

on the one hand, laughing at Ed Balls is good, on the other hand, zombie bacon pirate ninjas hohohohoho

Good on a slow news day like this one.

this is good, though pre-Ken foot-in-mouth: https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner/jeremy-corbyn-hasn-t-got-antisemitism-problem-his-opponents-do

Ken suspended, John Mann's been called in for a bollocking (and I hope he gets done for assault TBH).

i think that the anti-imperialism left in the west has picked up some inappropriate bedfellows along the way and corbyn has been loose about distinguishing between antisemitism and principled opposition to israel in the past (despite what left-wing guardian commenters say, the 'our friends in hezbollah' incident was not innocuous). i think in the broadest sense this constitutes a "problem" in labour but not an unfixable one -- it seems like corbyn is committed to fixing it (just saw the ken suspension news). generally speaking i trust the UK jewish to accurately identify bigotry + oppression and the v least step should be taking all concerns seriously (which does not necessitate agreeing to them w/out consideration). nb i have a number of english jewish friends (who now live in the US) so i'm not just shouting off w/out any knowledge - i've been following these developments for a while (and been reading david hirsh in engage + steve cohen, et al for longer.

the UK jewish community* i meant to say

I have a bunch of left wing friends who I would in no way categorize as anti-Semitic who are incredibly sloppy about filtering the pro-Palestine memes they throw around social media tbh

i think in the broadest sense this constitutes a "problem" in labour but not an unfixable one

Very broad, currently being ramped up hysterically and gleefully by all the usual suspects. Watching John Mann and Ken Livingstone arguing about the contents of Mein Kampf, words fail me.

all the usual suspects

I think we know who you mean right *nudge nudge*

Is that ironic ironic anti-semitism?

Just a little joke abt how Labour's problem is being unironically denounced as a "zionist" conspiracy

http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/statement-on-labours-problem-with-antisemitism-from-the-jewish-socialists-g

The Conservative Party demonstrated their contempt for Lord Dubs, a Jewish refugee from Nazism, when they voted down en masse an amendment a few days ago to allow 3,000 child refugees into Britain while Labour, led by Jeremy Corbyn, gave total support to Lord Dubs and his amendment.

The Jewish Socialists’ Group sees the current fearmongering about antisemitism in the Labour Party for what it is – a conscious and concerted effort by right-wing political forces to undermine the growing support among Jews and non-Jews alike for the Labour Party leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, and a measure of the desperation of his opponents.

Just a little joke abt how Labour's problem is being unironically denounced as a "zionist" conspiracy

Who's doing that?

Liz Buckley ‏@liz_buckley 6m6 minutes ago

Liz Buckley Retweeted Janine Gibson

For anyone else who misses The Thick Of It

Liz Buckley added,
Janine Gibson @janinegibson
Just a reminder that so far as we know, Ken Livingstone is STILL locked in a disabled toilet while journalists shout questions about Hitler

Who's doing that?

At least two people in this thread

Pretty sure that thinking there are plenty of journalists and labour party figures determined to undermine Jeremy Corbyn by any means that present themselves, doesn't mean u believe in rothschild lizards tho

Who are they? (xp)

guys, guys u know that arabs are semites 2, rite?

Are you one of The Anti-Zionist Two? *sinister music*

Anyway, DG's little jokes are always welcome, he doesn't post very often, bless him... or her.

i don't entirely agree with everything i've seen david hirsh say but i think he's done a v good job of helping instill a general sense of how antisemitism actually works, in a way that isn't really recognised with other kinds of prejudice, and it's interesting to see how it plays out in cases like this one - that the 'livingstone formulation' is something that perfectly well applies to islamophobes who don't dislike individual muslims or homophobes who don't dislike individual lgbt people, but in the latter cases it can be widely overlooked because people aren't as accepting of those as structural rather than individual prejudices in the way that they've come to be re antisemitism.

Fuck Ken Livingstone btw

"Hitler was ok, built all them motorways, got rid of unemployment... before he went MAAAD and started kiling jews"
fuck off

(had a teacher at school I remember saying pretty much the same one time, when I was slightly too young to know how o_O it was)

He's been at this for years though, shame it's taken so long for people not to hand-wave it away

He should never have been allowed to run for Mayor in 2008. He should have been told to go back to his allotment and write his memoirs.

Deja vu or what...

I'm sorry Dave, but the timing of this statement is further proof that Livingstone is either a fucking cretin or an arrogant little shit who thinks he can do and say anything and we'll all keep schtum because he's on the "Left" and he's one of us really, bollix to that. This time he can't even use the excuse that he was pissed as one of his newts!

― Some Dadaismus Implied (Dada), Friday, March 4, 2005 1:46 PM (11 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I heard Volker Ullrich had uncovered some untapped archives for his Hitler book, maybe he found them on Ken's allotment :p

I dont really have an opinion on judaism and israel in modern politics but jeez i do have the opinion "hitler wasnt always a bad guy" is not a good fucking stance to take here. I guess noone else has had opinions on the matter since younger fictionalised softy hitler v actual hitler

Hitler was fine when he only commanded the fanatical loyalty of thousands of paramilitary boot boys who would routinely commit anti-semitic hate crimes. Who could guess he would turn out to be a bad guy when given command of the carcereal and police resources of the state.

I hesitate to bring this up, in case I'm accused of being an anti-Zionist, but wasn't it last year that Netanyahu was claiming Hitler didn't want to kill the Jews either until the Mufti of Jerusalem popped the idea into his innocent little head?

My guess is that Corbyn's team have been desperate for a reason to off Ken for some time.

Also righteous long Suzy post upthread.

My guess is that Corbyn's team have been desperate for a reason to off Ken for some time.

the independent published an article a couple of weeks ago claiming that Corbyn's people had been calling up bbc current affairs shows begging them not to book Livingstone as a guest due to his ability to cause a row every time he opens his mouth

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyns-office-blocks-ken-livngstone-from-appearing-on-tv-a6978156.html

Corbyn basically bought Ken back into active roles tho'. Almost his worst move.

The whole thing is just so...from the roll-call of the usual right-wing Labour (really I'm so tired of these pricks) tweeting for Ken to go leading to the idiotic row with John Mann. Panto.

It's all a pretty good way of engaging with the junior doctor's strike, so fair fucks.

Of not engaging with *

You know a couple of years ago I would probably have defended Shah and Livingstone without thinking about it which is some small progress I suppose.

I don't understand why Labour don't distinguish between the Israeli left and the Israeli right.

Thanks to Mordy I can now see why people hotmouthing about 'Zionism' or 'Israel' is more of a problem than it might appear (to gentiles). Zionism being an ideology thought up by people at risk of being wiped out, it isn't the same as, say, what the Dutch thought about South Africa even if it shares some emotive threads, but people seem to have ended up talking about 'Zionism' in the same way you might talk about 'racism', as an unacceptable aberration.

Likewise blaming 'Zionism' for crimes by the IDF against Palestinians seems like a lazy move - as in, what actually motivates these conflicts, what's going through the heads of politicians and soldiers on the ground might not be Zionism as such?

And overall talking about 'Israel' doing (something bad) blanks out all the many Israelis who are opposed to that (something), presents 'Israel' as a homogenous block of people who all believe fervently that civilian tower blocks are legitimate targets etc etc. Hence why I say I wonder why UK Labour rhetoric on the issue doesn't distinguish between the Israeli Likud and Labour parties.

when someone like Boris Johnson wasn't suspended by the Tories for calling black people 'pickaninnies'

And things like this - the fact that at least half the people joining in the attempt to bring down Corbyn as an anti-semite are not Jewish and do not care about anti-semitism - feed into the Livingstone Formula very nicely

That's the same as every state though - every time that we say "India seeks Briton's extradition in AgustaWestland bribe case", it's understood that there'll be people in India who oppose this, and people in India who don't care.

But the representative government of the state is acting as the state - that's literally their job.

So much around historical debates about the transportation of a people. That this happened in the week the Tories barred children refugees from entering the country is just..

Perhaps many people have a natural expectation of labour taking racism more seriously than the tories, hence it's unsurprising that Boris has got away with his remark.

I think that my wanting my daughter to move out is significantly different from her desire to have her own place. Certainly this stuff annoyed me back in the day - you couldn't campaign about a library closure without anti-Israel flags, and you couldn't get agreement on removing that stuff. And it wasn't from anti-war Muslims; it was just hard-left white scots like myself. I was even asked to leave a group for being 'pro-Israel' because I took a more nuanced view. The aggravating thing is that it is both a serious problem on the left (along with a developing islamophobia) and it's being seized by the right for political ends. It's still nothing like the anti-semitism of the right, though I'll leave it to Jewish people to say whether it's a difference of magnitude or type.

https://mobile.twitter.com/alicharlo/status/726677447714955264

"On Thursday, are we really going to hand the world's greatest city to a Labour Party that thinks terrorists is its friends", Zac Goldsmith asks ungrammatically in the Mail, complete with pictures of the 7/7 attacks. If he loses, I hope he's done permanently in politics after this. I expected the campaign to be disgraceful but he has sunk even lower than anticipated.