Psychoactive Substances: Rolling UK Politics in The Neo-Con Era

Ken suspended, John Mann's been called in for a bollocking (and I hope he gets done for assault TBH).

i think that the anti-imperialism left in the west has picked up some inappropriate bedfellows along the way and corbyn has been loose about distinguishing between antisemitism and principled opposition to israel in the past (despite what left-wing guardian commenters say, the 'our friends in hezbollah' incident was not innocuous). i think in the broadest sense this constitutes a "problem" in labour but not an unfixable one -- it seems like corbyn is committed to fixing it (just saw the ken suspension news). generally speaking i trust the UK jewish to accurately identify bigotry + oppression and the v least step should be taking all concerns seriously (which does not necessitate agreeing to them w/out consideration). nb i have a number of english jewish friends (who now live in the US) so i'm not just shouting off w/out any knowledge - i've been following these developments for a while (and been reading david hirsh in engage + steve cohen, et al for longer.

the UK jewish community* i meant to say

I have a bunch of left wing friends who I would in no way categorize as anti-Semitic who are incredibly sloppy about filtering the pro-Palestine memes they throw around social media tbh

i think in the broadest sense this constitutes a "problem" in labour but not an unfixable one

Very broad, currently being ramped up hysterically and gleefully by all the usual suspects. Watching John Mann and Ken Livingstone arguing about the contents of Mein Kampf, words fail me.

all the usual suspects

I think we know who you mean right *nudge nudge*

Is that ironic ironic anti-semitism?

Just a little joke abt how Labour's problem is being unironically denounced as a "zionist" conspiracy

http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/statement-on-labours-problem-with-antisemitism-from-the-jewish-socialists-g

The Conservative Party demonstrated their contempt for Lord Dubs, a Jewish refugee from Nazism, when they voted down en masse an amendment a few days ago to allow 3,000 child refugees into Britain while Labour, led by Jeremy Corbyn, gave total support to Lord Dubs and his amendment.

The Jewish Socialists’ Group sees the current fearmongering about antisemitism in the Labour Party for what it is – a conscious and concerted effort by right-wing political forces to undermine the growing support among Jews and non-Jews alike for the Labour Party leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, and a measure of the desperation of his opponents.

Just a little joke abt how Labour's problem is being unironically denounced as a "zionist" conspiracy

Who's doing that?

Liz Buckley ‏@liz_buckley 6m6 minutes ago

Liz Buckley Retweeted Janine Gibson

For anyone else who misses The Thick Of It

Liz Buckley added,
Janine Gibson @janinegibson
Just a reminder that so far as we know, Ken Livingstone is STILL locked in a disabled toilet while journalists shout questions about Hitler

Who's doing that?

At least two people in this thread

Pretty sure that thinking there are plenty of journalists and labour party figures determined to undermine Jeremy Corbyn by any means that present themselves, doesn't mean u believe in rothschild lizards tho

Who are they? (xp)

guys, guys u know that arabs are semites 2, rite?

Are you one of The Anti-Zionist Two? *sinister music*

Anyway, DG's little jokes are always welcome, he doesn't post very often, bless him... or her.

i don't entirely agree with everything i've seen david hirsh say but i think he's done a v good job of helping instill a general sense of how antisemitism actually works, in a way that isn't really recognised with other kinds of prejudice, and it's interesting to see how it plays out in cases like this one - that the 'livingstone formulation' is something that perfectly well applies to islamophobes who don't dislike individual muslims or homophobes who don't dislike individual lgbt people, but in the latter cases it can be widely overlooked because people aren't as accepting of those as structural rather than individual prejudices in the way that they've come to be re antisemitism.

Fuck Ken Livingstone btw

"Hitler was ok, built all them motorways, got rid of unemployment... before he went MAAAD and started kiling jews"
fuck off

(had a teacher at school I remember saying pretty much the same one time, when I was slightly too young to know how o_O it was)

He's been at this for years though, shame it's taken so long for people not to hand-wave it away

He should never have been allowed to run for Mayor in 2008. He should have been told to go back to his allotment and write his memoirs.

Deja vu or what...

I'm sorry Dave, but the timing of this statement is further proof that Livingstone is either a fucking cretin or an arrogant little shit who thinks he can do and say anything and we'll all keep schtum because he's on the "Left" and he's one of us really, bollix to that. This time he can't even use the excuse that he was pissed as one of his newts!

― Some Dadaismus Implied (Dada), Friday, March 4, 2005 1:46 PM (11 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I heard Volker Ullrich had uncovered some untapped archives for his Hitler book, maybe he found them on Ken's allotment :p

I dont really have an opinion on judaism and israel in modern politics but jeez i do have the opinion "hitler wasnt always a bad guy" is not a good fucking stance to take here. I guess noone else has had opinions on the matter since younger fictionalised softy hitler v actual hitler

Hitler was fine when he only commanded the fanatical loyalty of thousands of paramilitary boot boys who would routinely commit anti-semitic hate crimes. Who could guess he would turn out to be a bad guy when given command of the carcereal and police resources of the state.

I hesitate to bring this up, in case I'm accused of being an anti-Zionist, but wasn't it last year that Netanyahu was claiming Hitler didn't want to kill the Jews either until the Mufti of Jerusalem popped the idea into his innocent little head?

My guess is that Corbyn's team have been desperate for a reason to off Ken for some time.

Also righteous long Suzy post upthread.

My guess is that Corbyn's team have been desperate for a reason to off Ken for some time.

the independent published an article a couple of weeks ago claiming that Corbyn's people had been calling up bbc current affairs shows begging them not to book Livingstone as a guest due to his ability to cause a row every time he opens his mouth

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyns-office-blocks-ken-livngstone-from-appearing-on-tv-a6978156.html

Corbyn basically bought Ken back into active roles tho'. Almost his worst move.

The whole thing is just so...from the roll-call of the usual right-wing Labour (really I'm so tired of these pricks) tweeting for Ken to go leading to the idiotic row with John Mann. Panto.

It's all a pretty good way of engaging with the junior doctor's strike, so fair fucks.

Of not engaging with *

You know a couple of years ago I would probably have defended Shah and Livingstone without thinking about it which is some small progress I suppose.

I don't understand why Labour don't distinguish between the Israeli left and the Israeli right.

Thanks to Mordy I can now see why people hotmouthing about 'Zionism' or 'Israel' is more of a problem than it might appear (to gentiles). Zionism being an ideology thought up by people at risk of being wiped out, it isn't the same as, say, what the Dutch thought about South Africa even if it shares some emotive threads, but people seem to have ended up talking about 'Zionism' in the same way you might talk about 'racism', as an unacceptable aberration.

Likewise blaming 'Zionism' for crimes by the IDF against Palestinians seems like a lazy move - as in, what actually motivates these conflicts, what's going through the heads of politicians and soldiers on the ground might not be Zionism as such?

And overall talking about 'Israel' doing (something bad) blanks out all the many Israelis who are opposed to that (something), presents 'Israel' as a homogenous block of people who all believe fervently that civilian tower blocks are legitimate targets etc etc. Hence why I say I wonder why UK Labour rhetoric on the issue doesn't distinguish between the Israeli Likud and Labour parties.

when someone like Boris Johnson wasn't suspended by the Tories for calling black people 'pickaninnies'

And things like this - the fact that at least half the people joining in the attempt to bring down Corbyn as an anti-semite are not Jewish and do not care about anti-semitism - feed into the Livingstone Formula very nicely

That's the same as every state though - every time that we say "India seeks Briton's extradition in AgustaWestland bribe case", it's understood that there'll be people in India who oppose this, and people in India who don't care.

But the representative government of the state is acting as the state - that's literally their job.

So much around historical debates about the transportation of a people. That this happened in the week the Tories barred children refugees from entering the country is just..

Perhaps many people have a natural expectation of labour taking racism more seriously than the tories, hence it's unsurprising that Boris has got away with his remark.

I think that my wanting my daughter to move out is significantly different from her desire to have her own place. Certainly this stuff annoyed me back in the day - you couldn't campaign about a library closure without anti-Israel flags, and you couldn't get agreement on removing that stuff. And it wasn't from anti-war Muslims; it was just hard-left white scots like myself. I was even asked to leave a group for being 'pro-Israel' because I took a more nuanced view. The aggravating thing is that it is both a serious problem on the left (along with a developing islamophobia) and it's being seized by the right for political ends. It's still nothing like the anti-semitism of the right, though I'll leave it to Jewish people to say whether it's a difference of magnitude or type.

https://mobile.twitter.com/alicharlo/status/726677447714955264

"On Thursday, are we really going to hand the world's greatest city to a Labour Party that thinks terrorists is its friends", Zac Goldsmith asks ungrammatically in the Mail, complete with pictures of the 7/7 attacks. If he loses, I hope he's done permanently in politics after this. I expected the campaign to be disgraceful but he has sunk even lower than anticipated.

looooool

tories are such scum. surely londoners won't swallow this crap.

London = Greatest City on Earth. Londoners = Greatest Earthlings.

Terrified he will win. Fuck you Ken Livingstone (who I used to respect and admire) for shitting the bed so badly that this is even a race now.

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/london-mayoral-election-2016/next-mayor

wouldn't worry.

Yes, good work Ken, you cunt.

If Khan loses and the expected wipeout takes place in Scotland then I think that'll be it for Corbyn. I don't believe he's remotely antisemitic but he has certainly created an environment where people like Ken feel they can shoot their mouths off with impunity. And if Khan loses it WILL be Ken's fault.

The possibility of voters just taking one look at the whole toxic mess and deciding just to not bother voting is reasonably high.

The ageing stoner dude looks nice enough.

Do you think Livingstone would be any more disciplined at this stage of his career under any other leader?

those odds say no fucking way he loses

Did Diane Abbott ever apologize or backpedal for saying Mao did more good than harm?

I'd like to think that stuff that Boris and other Tories said will be dredged back up and have more weight. I could see this sort of stuff becoming more of an arms race than it previously was.