Psychoactive Substances: Rolling UK Politics in The Neo-Con Era

so is the revolt against corbyn down to his "leadership style" or is it really a conflict between different ideological visions of labour? asking from the USA.

glib answer: the latter dressed up as the former

If the PLP want to drive a wedge between Corbyn and his young/urban supporters among the membership, casting him as having sabotaged the Remain campaign is a decent strategy.

This is the guy who bankrolled both of the Leave campaigns to the tune of £6m:

https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/747126832546320384

but a lot of corbyn supporters don't trust the PLP enough to listen to them

Yep, the more effective move would have been to resign demanding that the party campaigned on a platform of staying in the EU after Corbyn had said he'd respect the result, but that would have had other costs.

If the PLP want to drive a wedge between Corbyn and his young/urban supporters among the membership, casting him as having sabotaged the Remain campaign is a decent strategy.

which in and of itself would be a purely destructive act, as the chances of those guys picking up any supporters from that younger base are basically zero.
xxp

It may suffice to disillusion the Corbynite members so they don't vote at all in the next leadership contest. Forcing Corbyn out at this point is a self-destructive act on its own.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/stop-using-google-trends

I am woefully uninformed on all that has been happening re Brexit but I imagine for whatever the name for the generation that is young and most vulnerable, it is the worst (and possibly even worse than Trump, which may not even happen but may be sad anyway).

i'm really not at all well-informed when it comes to British politics compared to others here (though I have been reading along avidly throughout all of this), so apologies if this comes off as gauche, but my instincts as a disaffected "younger voter", and those of many of my friends who broadly share my views (lots of us joined the Labour party specifically to vote for Corbyn), would suggest that there is a massive opportunity right now for the Lib Dems to rebuild their younger base and reverse a lot of the damage they did by forming the coalition in 2010.

i do think that the younger Corbyn supporters that Seandalai mentioned earlier are clued in to the tactics of the PLP and aren't gonna be gulled into thinking that because Corbyn wasn't proactive in campaigning for Remain he's "betrayed" them or anything of that nature; but the in-house fighting is obviously going to be such a millstone weighing the party down during this time where young people are desperate to have something to work with and there are plenty of young people who would abandon Corbyn and the Labour party if there was the prospect of a legitimate alternative.

i know lots of ppl of my own age who voted for the Lib Dems in 2010 and subsequently disavowed the party forever after who would return in a heartbeat if the party were to step up to articulate a dissenting POV and provide some competent opposition right now. they certainly seem to be better positioned to provide that opposition than Labour. the world is changing and expressions of undying enmity made in 2010 no longer seem as significant or as binding as they did a year or two ago.

A lot of younger people were betrayed by the lib dems tuition fee debacle, something that specifically fucked over that particular demographic. Would take a lot to restore that trust I think

*cough* five years of coalition government

idk, i know what you guys mean but I think possibly younger voters have shorter memories than you believe? in the interests of disclosure i should note here that i'm 24 now and was one of the first time voters that backed the Lib Dems in the 2010 general election, so i'm not that young but probably young enough

obviously i can only speak with knowledge of one very particular demographic and social media is always going to form an echo chamber, but i have really never known anything like the outpouring of dismay and consternation that the result of this referendum has caused, amongst tons of people who have never to my knowledge taken even the slightest interest in politics.

there is an overwhelming desire for a mainstream alternative who are prepared to go to the mattresses over this issue right now, and if Labour are incapable of providing that and the Lib Dems come out and make the right noises then i think that any voices saying "yeah but remember what happened with the tuition fees..." are going to get shouted down. idk if that's necessarily a positive but it is what is. there is a sense of desperation here such that people are prepared to bargain if there is even the slightest chances of wriggling out of this commitment

i just don't see how any credible political party can ignore the result of the referendum. so maybe the Lib Dems are the best bet.

I'd be curious as to whether 1 year of full-on Tory government has softened views of 5 years of coalition.

I don't see how any credible political party can honour the result of the referendum either. Which is why they're all either in hiding or fighting themselves, presumably.

not sure why people are expecting politicians to be trustworthy, voting is just guesswork imo

the lib dems having failed to honor their tuition fee promise pales in comparison to what they did do upon finally being in a position to exercise power - facilitating the whole structure that gave birth to this mess - & it's this that wd cast the longest shadow over any optimistic promises cast now. i don't disagree that there is room for massive realignment but they're deeply fucking untrustworthy & compromised by incredibly recent, well-supported actions

https://www.today.ng/news/world/143432/brexit-rule-second-referendum-tony-blair

here's a guy who knows a thing or two about subverting the will of the people

i just don't see how any credible political party can ignore the result of the referendum. so maybe the Lib Dems are the best bet.

but surely the result was tight enough that it's at least worth trying? if the only alternative is throwing your hands up and saying "oh well, the people have spoken"...

Osborne and Bono Botha conspicuously absent

anyway, realign into 3 new parties:

far right Rand style libertarian gangsters featuring Boris Johnson

middle of the road gently regulated free marketeers for a minimal safety net for hard-working families, no Hijabs please we're British, featuring the EU-friendly Tories, the Lib Dems, and 3 quarters of the PLP

wild eyed leftist crazies who want the state to dish out cuddles and free healthcare and some kind of democratic regulation over rapacious businesses and such, featuring Corbs and a bunch of low quality celebs probably

systems thinking

if the 17 million leave breaks down roughly into: hardcore british exceptionalist tory eurosceptics; the no future bloc of the economically and politically dislocated left-behind; the far right/UKIP; and, a rump of lexiters and ultra-neoliberals.

which of these groups doesn't go full apeshit if UK gov decides to disregard the outcome of the referendum? the only potential is presumably working on the disenfranchised labour left-behind to convince them that things /can/ get worse. absent a strong voice working on that however (and in light of thirty years of whipped up anti-EU/immigration sentiment and a continuing strong tabloid voice presumably actively nurturing resentment) how does it happen? establishment stitch up is presumably the answer but that's just grief deferred no?

yeah Windsor the actual violence that would provoke is frightening enough for me to not to want a second referendum. instead i'd want any putative future government to try to craft the most progressive set of replacement laws as possible. including, perhaps, a quite liberal set of immigration laws. these would admittedly probably stop somewhat short of the passportless reality most EU citizens have now, but it's not like we're living in an eden of freedom right now. my EEA spouse can't vote for an MP despite living and paying taxes here for years. and despite EU law guaranteeing me the right to live and work here, no HR department in the land will hire me unless i have the right piece of paper in my passport. which takes months to get.

strong arguments all, and i have no answer to them. still floating somewhere between the first four stages of grief and clutching at straws i guess

i think everybody is. there's a vacuum and the sooner Labour can start articulating a narrative that's 1) true and 2) appealing and 3) convincing and 4) treats the Tories as the paper tigers they are the sooner they can get on with fixing this mess. i certainly don't think this is 'throwing up your hands' it will take enormous effort and clarity of purpose and leadership. ahh fuck i just saw the problem.

think i'd be better off just throwing up my hands if the alternative is expecting anything whatsoever off this Labour party in the way of effective opposition

It's Catch 22. If Labour (not just Corbyn) had clarity of purpose and leadership months ago, then Remain would have won and we wouldn't be in a situation where we need Labour (or whoever) to have clarity of purpose and leadership.

naive thoughts - the media hates corbyn (and indeed most left wingers), the hatred has made labour hate corbyn more, he hasnt been given enough a chance to prove his mettle, and i just dont envision a leadership battle being the most effective solution. surely now, when there is a gaping vacuum, is the time to make advances, not the time for intra party struggles. then again, it depends on how soon they can install a new leader.

national crisis, an outgoing tory PM, surely this would have been the time for labour to strike.

Too busy striking themselves.

he hasnt been given enough a chance to prove his mettle

his referendum campaign was that chance, what greater chance do you want?

a referendum he wasn't particular fussed over in a partnership with a bunch of Tories probably not his most obvious moment to get all statesmanlike

statesmanlike is such cobblers too, he's barely had time to introduce the kind of economic policies he'd like to see the party adopt

and to repeat the bleeding obvious, if you want to tell people that immigration is ok, you'd better have some policies in place to deal with the extra strain on state resources. rather than just nodding and going along with cutting the fuck out of everything.

basically how I break it down to an extent
https://twitter.com/huwlemmey/status/747149954750287872

(xxxxp) exactly. Corbyn had an entire year. I don't know if the rumours of him refusing to stand on a stage with Cameron are true, but if they are it seems short-sighted. We were four years away from a General Election last week, would it really have been a problem to work with Cameron to ensure that Remain won a majority?

most historic moment for the country in the last however many years and it's not the moment for the leader of the opposition to show some sort of gumption? xps

he didn't even have to stand alongside the tories, just y'know speak in a way to natural labour voters in a way that connected with them

almost the same percentage of Labour voters as SNP voters went with Remain, haven't seen anybody calling fuck out of Nicola Sturgeon

his referendum campaign was that chance, what greater chance do you want?

Most Labour voters voted remain, what more do you want? xps

We were four years away from a General Election last week, would it really have been a problem to work with Cameron to ensure that Remain won a majority?

Cameron thinks Corbyn is a friend of yer brown-skinned terrorists. But the notion this would've made any difference to anyone is hilarious.

PLANK CORBYN SHOULD HAVE DEPLOYED MATTY TAYLOR TO INFLUENCE KEY BREXIT CONSTITUENCIES, INTRODUCE SYSTEMS THINKING TO SHADOW CABINET MEETINGS

"almost the same percentage of Labour voters as SNP voters went with Remain, haven't seen anybody calling fuck out of Nicola"

I know SNP voters who voted remain in pursuit of a second independence referendum.

Is David Miliband coming back to stand for Jo Cox's seat and then etc etc save us all? That seems to be the extend of the PLP's 'vision'.

he stumbled between navigating anti immigration tories and pro immigration/progressive/liberal socialists. waitrose socialism wouldnt have cut it in old labour bases. and to be anti immigration (and do anything with cameron) would negate corbyn's core socialist beliefs. he just seems incapable of thinking 'bigger'. all they needed to do was speak louder IMO, denounce the leave campaign for what it was, remind people that the enemy was austerity cuts, not the EU, but that just didnt seem to come through. all the labour leaflets i got were just about relatively small points on what voting remain would save. he might have gotten most labour voters to vote remain, but the problem isnt that, its who those labour voters are (or arent, rather) in 2016.

Most Labour voters voted remain, what more do you want? xps

back of a fag packet calculation but

63% of labour voters voted remain

75% of green voters voted remain

if labour could have equalled that then that would have been 900k more remain voters and 900k less leave voters

Remain: 16,141,241 + 900,000 = 17,041,241

Leave: 17,410,742 - 900,000 = 16,510,742

thanks Obama

calculation based on 9M labour voters in the 2015 GE btw