Philip Seymour Hoffman c/d?

what is our compulsion to heap scorn on those who killed themselves? they suffered in life and ultimately succumbed to the dark impulses. what good does it do now to judge these things from the outside as if it even matters to you?

One person has run with that angle tbf

Hope keeps running iirc

Addiction literally alters the structure of the brain, of course it can be described as an illness

was gonna otm this.

There's always a choice involved, and, as such, "addiction" is always to some extent self-indulgence.

eh this kind of blaming bullshit. there's "a choice involved" yet the one making the choice has to compromise with an addictive bio-chemical makeup, obviously the choice is not 100% theirs to make. also fwiw i think people tend to overrate willpower in general, if your body wants to do something (eat, sleep, etc.) it doesn't matter if you decide not to, you are going to lose a battle vs your body.

Does that include political opinions and shit like

Skipping queues

addict concern trolls are the fucking worst, seriously go fuck off and be responsible somewhere else FREEDUMB

it's always a bunch of entitled emotional bullshit cloaked in fake rational vomit

if you put a gun to someone's head, he would be able to stop

it isn't as simple as this btw, idiot

There's always a choice involved, and, as such, "addiction" is always to some extent self-indulgence.

eh this kind of blaming bullshit. there's "a choice involved" yet the one making the choice has to compromise with an addictive bio-chemical makeup, obviously the choice is not 100% theirs to make. also fwiw i think people tend to overrate willpower in general, if your body wants to do something (eat, sleep, etc.) it doesn't matter if you decide not to, you are going to lose a battle vs your body.

Okay, it would have been better to say there is always an *element* of choice. I think this is an relevant point to make, as there can also exist a psychological tendency for people to use the fact they have an addiction itself as grounds for continuing to indulge, and that can lead to more deaths. As I already said, none of this precludes having sympathy for people who do give in in this way. If PSH possessed completely understandable human weaknesses, then I do not condemn him for that. One should not confuse a wish to impartially discuss the mechanics of addiction with a wish to make moral judgements.

I disagree completely with your second sentence. Food and sleep are always essential for staying alive; insofar as recovery from addiction is possible, drugs are not.

you should stop caring about this!

if you put a gun to someone's head, he would be able to stop

it isn't as simple as this btw, idiot

Please elaborate.

people literally go through physical hell, intense pain, vomiting etc etc withdrawing off opiods

chronic alcoholics get the shakes when they don't have alcohol in their system

i'm not fucking teaching you, jackass, just go away xxp

This is not a new insight or anything (same for most successful working actors, musicians, etc), but when reading this it struck me how much he was not around even when he was clean & sober.

god what a beautiful, devastating piece of writing.
the love, the beauty of small moments, the fear, the wreckage... so heartwrenching.

That was a heartbreaking story and that level of transparency should be applauded. I think there should be more transparency with regard to overdose deaths. Families and loved ones are understandably sensitive to this information being broadcast to the community at large and risking harsh judgements from strangers (as demonstrated in this thread), but given that it's one of the leading causes of death I can't help but feel that if people were more aware of the issue they could take action to prevent similar tragedies happening to their friends or family. It's suspicious when a celebrity just drops dead in their mid fifties/60s and there seems to be a collective its-a-mystery shrug from the community at large. I also suspect that drug use probably factors into a lot of the sexual harassment/abuse cases that have been reported recently but that's just speculation.

he was good at making me cringe in movies, so, that's good i guess? i don't really like seeing his big face and that smile when he pops up in movies though. he was a really big ham. like a theater ham. like one of those people who did years of sam shepard plays at the steppenwolf and then did movies. but he wasn't really in the kinds of movies that i like so maybe that has something to do with why i'm not a fan. i remember liking the big lebowski and state and main but i only saw them at the time so i don't really remember what he did in those. i will tend to watch cohen/mamet movies even if gary sinise is in them or someone else i'm not big on.

there have been a few times where i didn't watch a movie on netflix because he was in the movie. so i go with dud i guess.

wins otm

Addicts also feel shame for what they do and how it affects their family, no need to demonize the addict

Glad there's some reasonable responses here

In this instance the wall to wall coverage was sympathy and positive with plenty of respectful and fair reference to the torture and difficulties faced by even a professionally successful and domestically lucky addict.

One dissenting view on ilx the message board that specifically grounds their issues with PSH with reference to the effects on his surviving family is not a wall of hate and shaming that anyone here is earning any medals for.

🙄 all this thread needs now is LJ

great article

Yeah dmac otm

In this instance the wall to wall coverage was sympathy and positive with plenty of respectful and fair reference to the torture and difficulties faced by even a professionally successful and domestically lucky addict.

One dissenting view on ilx the message board that specifically grounds their issues with PSH with reference to the effects on his surviving family is not a wall of hate and shaming that anyone here is earning any medals for.

― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Friday, December 15, 2017 9:57 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's literally the stupid fucking attitude held by lots of people that prevents society doing anything to ameliorate the suffering and premature death of addicts, and with drug deaths being one of the biggest causes of death it's fucking annoying to have to read such pish. ilx discourse at the level of daily mail comments

Serious question, what would society be doing more to help if the odd person, be it nine out of ten daily mail readers or one out of ten ilxors, didn't consider - in the specific instance- PSH's relapse selfish and cruel on his family?

It's probably geographically specific but I don't know if the decision making process in allocation of resources or the strategic decisions made in helping addicts or combatting drugs and their effects are under heavy influence from the tutting classes?

If the POV is daily mail comment level, the immediate jump by the significant majority here to react as if every irl govt and society wide frustration they can tenuously link is directly attributable to a comment expressing that POV seems like not much better tbh

Oh yeah and read the article before you "Dude" me, you may learn something.

― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Friday, December 15, 2017 3:38 AM (nine hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

hmm yeah i read it, you're still a fucking asshole

xp Can't see a single person saying that anything is directly attributable to shitty posts itt tbh, let alone a "significant majority"

To answer your question tho yes, I will put my neck on the line and take the position that societal attitudes toward addicts informs societal treatment of addicts

Dunno dmac, I'm a longtime addict. I didn't elaborate on my post and didn't feel need to add anything mkre significant as well

societal attitudes toward addicts informs societal treatment of addicts

wins otm

Joan, the examples you mention show that addiction, at a certain level, can lead to a situation in which refraining from consuming a certain drug is highly unpleasant, but even here the compulsion doesn't become uncontrollable, which I think would be a necessary basis for it to be considered an illness. Again, to observe this isn't to diminish the hideousness of the experience, but the distinction is a necessary one for the sake of accurate analysis.

There are extreme cases with, for example, the DTs, where withdrawal literally can be fatal, but those cases would, I think, be the exception.

Ok wins if we're getting specific then I don't see anyone itt being all of society damn what a cool thread

Ross, I'm the product of a shittily behaved addict. That was one of my points upthread in that imo brocollis post was from certain perspectives - maybe that one- an arguable one, and one that someone can hold without having society's treatment of addicts (again I'd note we are discussing the death of a much loved and wealthy actor here not the situation in the back alleys or whatever) tied to that is imo unfair and it's also dishonest.

Freedoms perspective yeah look not so much.

", but even here the compulsion doesn't become uncontrollable,"

you are a true idiot with little to no firsthand experience with addiction, clearly.

why does it being fatal or not make any difference?

If it isn't fatal it's not an illness, duh. Did you skip biology or something ums?

I mean it's literally a matter of life and death jeez

gentlemen...i just beat the flu

i will never die

I didn't say that it being fatal or not was the key factor; I was just giving an extreme example of where the label of illness might be applicable.

Ok wins if we're getting specific then I don't see anyone itt being all of society damn what a cool thread


It isn't an overly nice distinction! aiui jim was just saying the post itt was annoying because it's indicative of an attitude that is prevalent & harmful outside of ilx, not that its expression here will lead to the collapse of civilisation

Fwiw I took your point straight away about valid emotional response re ppl caught in the fallout, as long as we all agree "freedom" is a dumb cunt it's all good 🙂

As always we cool

anyone that isn't an addict or hasn't had an addict in their lives can fuck right off with their ignorant judgment and analysis of something they clearly don't understand. i cannot see how anyone can read this piece and come away thinking "what a selfish, emotionally manipulative asshole." un-fucking-believable

I didn't say that it being fatal or not was the key factor; I was just giving an extreme example of where the label of illness might be applicable.

i have experienced addiction first hand and i don't blame anyone who looks at it from the outside and doesn't understand it... it's an incomprehensible thing. also, if a result of the disease is that it in some sense turns one into a selfish emotionally manipulative asshole, is someone really wrong to observe that, regardless of the underlying cause? i dunno

that is distinct from Broccoli's armchair bullshit, excuse me if you're an addict or have had an addict in your life, but serious question: what do you have to do gain from jumping into a conversation about addiction if you have no experience with it? your input is contributing to a societal problem.

3 years ago I lost one of my longest and very best friends to addiction. It is painful to watch because this guy (as so many addicts) really did not want to be seen as a "selfish asshole" and wanted to do right by his family and friends. He hid it as best as he could. His behavior got increasingly erratic. Day after day, we would notice as things started to not add up with his life. I never had the guts to ask or confront him because I had no clue if or what he was using. He drank a lot but so what, me too. Then one day I got a phone call at 4 AM and he was dead. Most messed up experience of my life.

flappy bird unless you know something I don't you are making some big assumptions

that is distinct from Broccoli's armchair bullshit, excuse me if you're an addict or have had an addict in your life, but serious question: what do you have to do gain from jumping into a conversation about addiction if you have no experience with it? your input is contributing to a societal problem.

― flappy bird, Friday, 15 December 2017 19:06 (fifteen seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Linked to your insistence that anonymous posters bonafides matter upthread but

What do you have to gain from expressing an alternative view in this thread?

Not in a pugnacious way but it's just that this stance essentially boils down to "if I disagree with u fuck off" and look there's a place for that but at least admit that this is what it is

One of the things wins is in fact best at is choosing when this is a suitable tack and openly stating it btw which is why wins wina

Anyway I think we have this one sorted

btw that is an excellent piece fwiw

haven't read it