Israel to World: "Suck It."

lol same

is he usually notm? i've only read his big pieces on palestinian right-of-return and his binational israel-palestine dream

besides the article i shared, obv

Beinart was a notorious advocate of war with Iraq.

he also had the eye-popping temerity to take Jonah Goldberg seriously

ah ok, have never read or heard a word of his not about this conflict

Watch as Israeli forces storm Al-Aqsa Mosque compound and fire tear gas at Palestinians celebrating the ceasefire after Friday prayers.

🔴 LIVE updates: https://t.co/v8UKhitk1T pic.twitter.com/xM34b7iIJ6

— Al Jazeera English (@AJEnglish) May 21, 2021

fuck's sake!

"The notion of targeting civilians and civilians infrastructure instead"

Lol @ worrying about civilian infrastructure at a time like this.

I am not worrying about civilian infrastructure (except maybe ports and airports), just making the point that Hamas is barely a liberation group and self-defense is a flimsy understanding of their actions. And also telling people what to worry about and not worry about is psychopathic.

None of which Beinart disagrees with. This current sort of Israeli govt is going to make terrorist accusations on any liberation group, legitimate or not, peaceful or not, and conflating Hamas with Palestinians on the ground protesting is an obvious part of their strategy.

that's not exactly what beinart said. he said that as long as there is occupation, there will be violent resistance to the occupation, whether by hamas or someone else

"And also telling people what to worry about and not worry about is psychopathic."

This is desperate.

I mean, this is kind of a fine line to walk between saying this and justifying attacks on civilians, but like, what the fuck do you expect them to do? They don't have the military capacity to be any kind of meaningful threat to the IDF, so of course they are going to use asymmetric warfare. In a realpolitik sense, their tactics are effective, because here we are talking about Israel and Palestine a lot more than we were 3 months ago. The world is paying attention again. So in that sense they are a somewhat effective resistance group, because what they are doing helps their cause more than it hurts it. At least I think so. Quiet certainly doesn't seem to benefit them much.

that's not exactly what beinart said. he said that as long as there is occupation, there will be violent resistance to the occupation, whether by hamas or someone else

― the mai tai quinn (voodoo chili), Friday, May 21, 2021 11:11 AM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

And I’m just making the case that targeting civilians is not resistance. Targeting civilians can’t possibly be justified, at any time, for anyone. Nor is targeting civilians really going to end occupation. For that matter, I support any pro-palestinian group that targets the IDF and its infrastructure.

Am I really facing pushback on the idea that a civilian life has to be sanctified?

OTOH I guess Israel is still "winning" in the sense that settlements keep expanding, Israel keeps dominating, Israel's economy is good, Israelis are relatively unbothered by the conflict most of the time (outside of their army service), so maybe it's all futile. But if that's true I think Israel would be winning regardless - nonviolence obviously doesn't work, maybe violence doesn't work either, but in that case then maybe it's just resistance for resistance sake which is human.

I mean, I really hate drawing this comparison, but resistance groups in the holocaust sometimes targeted civilians/civilian infrastructure. It's not that I condone it, it's just that it's kind of disingenuous to play ref in this situation.

Am I really facing pushback on the idea that a civilian life has to be sanctified?

― Van Horn Street, Friday, May 21, 2021 11:23 AM (five minutes ago)

The problem is that civilian life isn't sanctified by Israel, by their backers the US, by etc etc. It's clear that you also object to those states killing civilians, but the difference in power/scale is under-acknowledged, as does the understandable desperation of Palestinians that man alive is addressing.

If that group was funded by an autocratic foreign nation and had the clear intent of wiping out civilians Germans from their homeland then perhaps the comparison would make sense.

But yeah sorry, I don’t think any sort of desperation justifies killing and expulsing civilians, I won’t cross that line, I won’t cross it when holocaust survivors commited the Nakba, and I won’t cross today if desperate palestinians kill jews.

And I don’t even think Hamas is representative of the desperation of Palestinian people.

could have fooled someone, maybe

very big of you though

Hey, if loving human life is a crime, then lock me up and throw away the key! Am I right???!

I don't really think the point is whether or not you condone civilian deaths, the point is at some point who cares what you think about civilian deaths? Ok, I condemn Hamas. What changes?

I have family (by marriage) who could hypothetically be hit by rockets, so I don't take this totally lightly. I have family who have had to go into bomb shelters from it. But at the same time, lets be honest, the rockets suck and the odds are pretty low, and in a week they'll be back out in nice cafes on the beach and Palestinians in Gaza will be picking through the rubble and attending funerals.

"and I won’t cross today if desperate palestinians kill jews."

Posting this when Israeli soldiers are attacking Palestinians the day after a ceasefire has been called.

in a week they'll be back out in nice cafes on the beach

if my instagram feed is anything to go by, they're already at the beach

This notion of sanctifying civilian lives within the context of warfare, it's something armies will give lip service to but afaict this has never actually happened during any conflict in world history.

I have family (by marriage) who could hypothetically be hit by rockets, so I don't take this totally lightly. I have family who have had to go into bomb shelters from it. But at the same time, lets be honest, the rockets suck and the odds are pretty low, and in a week they'll be back out in nice cafes on the beach and Palestinians in Gaza will be picking through the rubble and attending funerals.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, May 21, 2021 11:48 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Am I making the claim that it is otherwise?

I’m only ‘both-siding’ when condemning Hamas and the IDF.

I am not making the case that situation is as bad for Israeli citizens as it is Palestinian citizens.

If/when the rockets stop, the settlements will keep expanding, Israeli right wing gangs will keep harassing Arabs, Palestinian homes will keep getting demolished, Palestinians will keep getting unjustly imprisoned, checkpoints will remain in place in non-Hamas-controlled areas, and life for most Israelis will continue to be 100% fine. That's why I don't find it to be worth spending much breath on that point.

One of the things that needs to be mentioned, too, is that by creating the apartheid environment in which Palestinians live, Israel has *already made* the entire Palestinian populace into an enemy. For the IDF, there is no difference between Hamas and some guy going to work, or an esteemed writer and journalist, or a child.

To say that Hamas should focus their rockets on the IDF when the IDF kills Palestinians indiscriminately is ghastly and inhuman.

Also, the whole mandatory military service thing might have a side effect of helping your enemy see your entire populace as non-civilian.

It is less a side effect than an objective in my opinion.

To say that Hamas should focus their rockets on the IDF when the IDF kills Palestinians indiscriminately is ghastly and inhuman.

― heyy nineteen, that's john belushi (the table is the table), Friday, May 21, 2021 12:45 PM (thirty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

What would be inhuman would be to justify the death of people in any circumstances. If you feel good about people being killed that's between you and your conscience. I feel differently and if that makes me a 'both-siders' then so be it.

You really do refuse to engage with what anyone is saying here, don't you?

if being against murder is a crime, then lock me up

as was said above

amazing peter beinart book title:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/issAAOSws5Bahiwd/s-l400.jpg

but he did have a full change of heart about a decade ago

Dunking on Peter Beinart seems really pointless and counterproductive rn

ouch

I'm generally suspicious of political apostates, but that piece voodoo chili linked was very good

these constant reminders of the evils of hamas *do* have the effect of justifying the deaths of people. this is exactly why they are such a prominent theme in I/P discourse - because they are useful for that purpose. it's not something you can just pick up for your own purposes w/o playing into that

so is this guy like a repentant liberal hawk or something. does he matter

I think he matters bc he has the ear of liberal American Jews and "liberal zionists" who might be persuadable on certain aspects of this

xp
actually I think I'm confusing him with someone else, so "apostate" might be hyperbolic

xps - You really do refuse to engage with what anyone is saying here, don't you?

He is engaging. But he is not falling into line. He persists in recognizing the same facts, but applying a different frame of reference. Deploring murder is easy and literally everyone on this thread agrees on that, including VHS. afaics, he's trying to take a step beyond that frame of reference. To those who are calling him ghastly and inhuman this looks like stepping away from deploring murder.

Emotionally, it's "too soon" to think beyond the ongoing horrific murder. The problem with "too soon" is that the raw wounds in Gaza never heal and are ripped open so often that it is always "too soon".

all this nuance feels a bit like well what about antifa violence

it's just a feeling. it will pass.

xp that's silly, come on. over 4,000 people died in the last intifada

And a further problem is that many people see the end of apartheid in South Africa as the victory of the struggles of the 1970s and 1980s, ignoring their continuation against the ANC, while people are arrested and murdered.https://t.co/6Q2icAk9th

— libcom.org (@libcomorg) May 21, 2021

Jewish lives matter.

So tell your terrorists buddies in Hamas to stop bombing them.#JihadSquad https://t.co/qyOiYQ1I69

— Marjorie Taylor Greene 🇺🇸 (@mtgreenee) May 17, 2021

Who does this remind you of?

"He is engaging. But he is not falling into line."

Oh what a hero, unlike us sheep.