Israel to World: "Suck It."

One of the things that needs to be mentioned, too, is that by creating the apartheid environment in which Palestinians live, Israel has *already made* the entire Palestinian populace into an enemy. For the IDF, there is no difference between Hamas and some guy going to work, or an esteemed writer and journalist, or a child.

To say that Hamas should focus their rockets on the IDF when the IDF kills Palestinians indiscriminately is ghastly and inhuman.

Also, the whole mandatory military service thing might have a side effect of helping your enemy see your entire populace as non-civilian.

It is less a side effect than an objective in my opinion.

To say that Hamas should focus their rockets on the IDF when the IDF kills Palestinians indiscriminately is ghastly and inhuman.

― heyy nineteen, that's john belushi (the table is the table), Friday, May 21, 2021 12:45 PM (thirty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

What would be inhuman would be to justify the death of people in any circumstances. If you feel good about people being killed that's between you and your conscience. I feel differently and if that makes me a 'both-siders' then so be it.

You really do refuse to engage with what anyone is saying here, don't you?

if being against murder is a crime, then lock me up

as was said above

amazing peter beinart book title:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/issAAOSws5Bahiwd/s-l400.jpg

but he did have a full change of heart about a decade ago

Dunking on Peter Beinart seems really pointless and counterproductive rn

ouch

I'm generally suspicious of political apostates, but that piece voodoo chili linked was very good

these constant reminders of the evils of hamas *do* have the effect of justifying the deaths of people. this is exactly why they are such a prominent theme in I/P discourse - because they are useful for that purpose. it's not something you can just pick up for your own purposes w/o playing into that

so is this guy like a repentant liberal hawk or something. does he matter

I think he matters bc he has the ear of liberal American Jews and "liberal zionists" who might be persuadable on certain aspects of this

xp
actually I think I'm confusing him with someone else, so "apostate" might be hyperbolic

xps - You really do refuse to engage with what anyone is saying here, don't you?

He is engaging. But he is not falling into line. He persists in recognizing the same facts, but applying a different frame of reference. Deploring murder is easy and literally everyone on this thread agrees on that, including VHS. afaics, he's trying to take a step beyond that frame of reference. To those who are calling him ghastly and inhuman this looks like stepping away from deploring murder.

Emotionally, it's "too soon" to think beyond the ongoing horrific murder. The problem with "too soon" is that the raw wounds in Gaza never heal and are ripped open so often that it is always "too soon".

all this nuance feels a bit like well what about antifa violence

it's just a feeling. it will pass.

xp that's silly, come on. over 4,000 people died in the last intifada

And a further problem is that many people see the end of apartheid in South Africa as the victory of the struggles of the 1970s and 1980s, ignoring their continuation against the ANC, while people are arrested and murdered.https://t.co/6Q2icAk9th

— libcom.org (@libcomorg) May 21, 2021

Jewish lives matter.

So tell your terrorists buddies in Hamas to stop bombing them.#JihadSquad https://t.co/qyOiYQ1I69

— Marjorie Taylor Greene 🇺🇸 (@mtgreenee) May 17, 2021

Who does this remind you of?

"He is engaging. But he is not falling into line."

Oh what a hero, unlike us sheep.

I remember this poster making the very salient point that constitutional monarchies are fine because they have no damaging consequences on the important metrics like home ownership and where a country is on some Gates Foundation wealth index. Absolute fucking weapons grade hero is this lad!

Who does this remind you of?

FP who do you think you're enlightening with this bs

You

Blimey. That's a long check-list you have to tick off in order to be allowed to care about Gaza, according to Jonathan Freedland. pic.twitter.com/w7wEABy8bj

— David Timoney (@fromarsetoelbow) May 22, 2021

He did at least acknowledge Much of the explanation is that Israel/Palestine is simply more visible, with media coverage on a scale unmatched by any of those other catastrophes. but then a few paragraphs later It can’t be the fact that Israel is a favoured western ally; so is Saudi Arabia. which...well, that's just not the gotcha he seems to think.

“An Israeli pilot revealed that the destruction of residential towers in #Gaza Strip was "a way to vent the army's frustration"

in an interview w Israeli Channel (12) with pilots who participated in blowing up 9 residential towers in Gaza, inc one that housed media offices.

— Sarah Leah Whitson (@sarahleah1) May 22, 2021

I remember this poster making the very salient point that constitutional monarchies are fine because they have no damaging consequences on the important metrics like home ownership and where a country is on some Gates Foundation wealth index. Absolute fucking weapons grade hero is this lad!

― calzino, Saturday, May 22, 2021 5:45 AM (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I was talking about the UN’s human development index...

thanks for clearing that up mate!

Oh what a hero, unlike us sheep.

What a strange construction to put on the simple observation that someone has a differing opinion. Binary much?

I just don’t see what is the link with home ownership or even Bill Gates, this is just hateful mockery.

just hateful mockery.

It's a go-to move for a lot of people on social media. And off.

Also called "being a dickhead"

the Penetrating Eye has logged on!

the Penetrating Eye has logged on!

― calzino, Saturday, May 22, 2021 12:33 PM (thirty-two seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

What are you contributing to this? What is the point? I might have my disagreements with some people on this thread but at least they are being respectful (except alphabet) and engaging with the discussion.

What a strange construction to put on the simple observation that someone has a differing opinion. Binary much?

The exact phrase you used was 'not falling into line', which suggests people who are disagreeing with him are 'falling in line'. So not such a strange construction perhaps?

What are you contributing to this? What is the point? I might have my disagreements with some people on this thread but at least they are being respectful (except alphabet) and engaging with the discussion.

― Van Horn Street, Saturday, May 22, 2021 5:37 PM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

you don't deserve any respect! you're such an entitled prick lol.

This is such a terrible episode.

My statement on my termination from The Associated Press. pic.twitter.com/kf4NCkDJXx

— emily wilder (@vv1lder) May 22, 2021

No tolerance for anyone who posts about fucking infrastructure more than human lives.

Aimless and VHS - you seem to come as a pair - it’s hardly surprising that you’re getting such a consistently negative reaction on this thread. You’re not bringing much beyond platitudes and blame apportionment. Read the room! Try sharing a link, an original idea, a personal story?

Have I said that infrastructure is more important than human lives?

Anyway I’m out. At least I hope your bullying will allow to feel better about yourselves.

VHS - fuck a Palestinian flag I'm begging you

which suggests people who are disagreeing with him are 'falling in line'

Or, more simply, suggests that their opinions align with one another.

I think table raises a very important point upthread. the idea that palestinians would only feel ire at the IDF is a very weird one. any attempt to understand the situation of palestinians makes it abundantly clear that the ways in which they are victimised, attacked and humiliated every day are not just by the actions of the IDF but by the israeli courts, media, politicians and citizens who participate in the occupation of illegal settlements. The daily and excruciatingly long experience of occupation, and the murderous effects of dispossession and blockading and their combined effects on food and medical provisions, are for some reason never considered as 'the first stone.' we talk a lot about the targetting or collateral of civilians and civilian infrastructure in these assymetric campaigns of violence but this is only part of a picture in which civilians are targetted every day by israeli institutions in a way that cannot be understood to have equivalence. this is literally what apartheid means. While i condemn or whatever any violence that targets civilians, this condemnation cannot just be for IDF shooting palestinians or Hamas rockets but for the murderous effects of occupation that kills and oppresses palestinians every day. so little of the 'both sides' stuff (im not having a go at anyone here) includes this within its frame, for reasons that are predictable and obvious but are worth restating again and again.

which suggests people who are disagreeing with him are 'falling in line'

Or, more simply, suggests that their opinions align with one another.

― What's It All About, Althea? (Aimless), Saturday, 22 May 2021 17:41 (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

have a look at what the 'normal,' 'mainstream,' 'acceptable' opinion to have about this is. the answer may shock you!

extremely otm x2

people who have taken issue with VHS's approach here have had disagreements between themselves, on this thread, at the same time! if it looks like groupthink you're not paying attention

you seem to come as a pair

Odd to say we almost never participate in the same threads.

itt I am mainly seeing VHS bullied, belittled, mocked, and villified, not because he has attempted in any way to defend the Israeli attacks on Gaza, but simply because his views on the dynamics of the endless ongoing subjection of the Palestinians include the idea that, as the governing party of Gaza, the policies of Hamas do a disservice to the Palestinians whose lives and fate they rule.

This may not be the most correct view, but the few posts that try to act as a corrective generally also add some attack on his character, his motives, and his intelligence. More often the corrective is missing and the attack is the whole substance of the post. I'm never going to stand by and approve of bullying and all of you who constantly and reflexively fall back on that tactic can go fuck themselves.

otoh it's fine to heavily imply people are ok with the genocide of jews as long as you're polite about it

xp

no again, this is a highly normative view which is why I would be minded to push back against it as it rehearses a set of platitudes I am quite familiar with (can't speak for others)