Israel to World: "Suck It."

excellent interview with the writer of that book here: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/could-the-attack-on-israel-spell-the-end-of-hamas

A new Chotiner interview: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/where-the-palestinian-political-project-goes-from-here

I see

"What about those Palestinians who are in hospital on life support & babies in incubators that will have to be turned off because Israelis have cut the power to Gaza?"

Ex Israeli PM Naftali Bennett: ""Are you seriously asking me about Palestinian civilians? Whats wrong wth you?" pic.twitter.com/mN5sH5PWyi

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) October 12, 2023

I had no idea Nazi Germany was occupied and brutalized for most of its existence!

Its absolutely worth you going into more of your thoughts!

Well this is just my take and it's not like I am constantly closely following Israeli politics, but having at least some ties there there are a few things that come to mind. One is that Americans did not really live with a feeling of threat pre-9/11, and the average American experienced the attack as though it came out of nowhere. Israelis constantly have a sense of threat in the back of their mind if not the front. Israel has universal conscription, and the service does not take place somewhere halfway around the world. Israel has multiple wars on its soil or borders in living memory as well as the intifadas, prior Hamas cross-border attacks, frequent rocket fire, etc. "Security" is always at the forefront of Israeli politics. Even 9/11 didn't originate across a border in Mexico or Canada, it originated in Saudi Arabia and Egypt. So while there was some talk of "Bush didn't heed the warnings," it was hard to really get people riled up to blame Bush, especially since the attack was so surprising to Americans.

This attack was surprising too, but to the extent it shattered any illusions, they were fairly recent and weakly held illusions. And Bibi specifically sold himself as the most security president of all security presidents. It was practically all he had going for him - corrupt and brazen but at least "he keeps us safe." There was a period of relative quiet and calm for the last decade for Israelis. That's over. Plus you already had the backdrop of the judicial reforms, i.e. the soft authoritarian coup he has attempted. Anyone remotely liberal-leaning HATES Bibi and has hated him for a long time. There have been constant protests against him. Massive numbers of people have actually refused reserve duty in protest - it's hard to explain what a big statement that is for an Israeli to make and it was probably unthinkable 20 years ago.

Then, you have the fact of parliamentary politics and the fact that Bibi relies on cobbled together coalition govts that can easily fall apart.

Finally, the fact that Bibi has now dragged Israel into another war with a strong chance of ground invasion, multiple fronts, and potentially even more occupation has very different implications than the faraway wars the US's professional army fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. My wife's cousins are in their late 30s with little kids at home and they now may have to go risk their lives for what is effectively a massive fuckup. And there are high risks of further harm to Israeli civilians and soldiers, especially if fighting begins on the northern border or in the West Bank. And unlike 9/11, this was so CLEARLY, unequivocally Bibi's fuckup.

And when I say "may have to go risk their lives" I mean they are mobilized, so it's more likely than not, a ground invasion seems very likely at this point.

really appreciate yr posts and perspective here, ty

Or to simplify:

America: "Huh why would they do this what's Al Qaeda, yay Bush go get em" - sends a bunch of poor kids over to a country we can't find on a map

Israel: "You fucking idiot, everybody knew this could happen" - all able bodied men under 40 and many women are forced to go risk death mere dozens of miles away in an avoidable conflagration from an ongoing conflict that has been a presence for their entire lives

And to be clear, I don't mean to use "threat" in any kind of moralizing way, I just mean it as a fact of life whether you think the threat is justified or not

Leaders who take nations into wars not surviving the war is not uncommon. It happened in both world wars in the UK.

From one of those interviews:

"This is the first time I have been interviewed by The New Yorker, and it’s happening because Israelis were killed. What happened when Palestinians were killed in the thousands, just in the fifteen years that I’ve been covering Hamas? And so, when we really want to think about what this driver of violence is—and the pictures that have been coming out are sickening—we need to understand that colonial violence instills dehumanization both in the oppressor and in the oppressed. And it’s completely out of mind. It’s mind-boggling to me that Israeli protesters go out to protest for democracy in an apartheid regime. The only way they can hold that contradiction is if they accept that Palestinian lives are absent or expendable. And so we have to understand this violence, which, again, is heart-wrenching, in that context."

France banned 'pro-Palestine' public protests? I can see UK trying it. Putin must be lhao.

??

Israel is paying YouTube to place adverts like this before videos aimed at children..

No words.... pic.twitter.com/QK6qa1s3Vl

— Lowkey (@Lowkey0nline) October 12, 2023

Wow. Paris after protests in solidarity with Palestine were banned by the government. https://t.co/K3aPvbhL4r

— Farah-Silvana Kanaan (@farahkanaan) October 12, 2023

Macron is a fucking idiot.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone so desperate to be Prime Minister.

Israeli defensive action against Hamas must not be used as an excuse to stir up hatred against Jews.

We’re giving @CST_UK an extra £3m to enhance the safety of the British Jewish community.

We stand against antisemitism. And we stand with Israel.

pic.twitter.com/xj9d0qgCNX

— Suella Braverman MP (@SuellaBraverman) October 12, 2023

Trump reportedly asking key pro-Israel allies if he can call for Netanyahu's 'immediate impeachment' after Hamas attacks https://t.co/x2BSSfrqVM

— Haaretz.com (@haaretzcom) October 12, 2023

Macron is a fucking idiot.

Seriously. Guy is just laser picking the worst possible shit to rile the French up. Half expect him to ban wine next.

xp as much as this hurts me to type, that might be the first thing I fundamentally agree with him on wrt an actual policy platform.

I don't think Israel does the whole impeachment thing

as with other parliamentary systems

but it's the thought that counts

I found this letter from Arielle Angel compelling

xxp he can call for his pipe, his bowl, and his fiddlers three, who gives a shit

"Bibi is absent"

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/in-the-israel-hamas-war-netanyahu-is-losing-at-home.html

"Opposition leader Yair Lapid, who has refused to join the emergency war cabinet as long as Netanyahu keeps his extremist ministers, accused the government of an “unforgivable failure” and said “he who brought about this failure cannot fix it.” On September 20, Lapid, who is privy to top-secret intelligence briefings, warned in a video message that he had reason to believe that Israel was vulnerable to a multifront attack as a result of “the government’s lack of coordination with security agencies.” The prime minister’s office issued its fourth denial about having dismissed any such prior warning. Netanyahu was updated only “when the fighting broke out and not before.”

Thanks for the further thoughts, Man Alive (its always worth expanding, people aren't always as fixed as they might appear)

BREAKING: Israel’s military has directed the evacuation of northern Gaza, a region that is home to 1.1 million people, within 24 hours, according to a U.N. spokesman. https://t.co/6B5Hjjy9hg

— The Associated Press (@AP) October 13, 2023

this is really bad

They...aren't going to use nukes or anythin that mental are they? :|

The chief minister of Scotland has family in Gaza.

UN has said the order to move 1.1m people in 24 hours will lead to "devastating humanitarian consequences"

The international community must step up and demand an end to collective punishment. Enough. There can be no justification for the death of innocent men, women & children. https://t.co/b2IlGARfXT

— Humza Yousaf (@HumzaYousaf) October 13, 2023

xpost: of course they are

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon

“Why, our people are here because genocide was committed against us. What we need to do is commit genocide against other people after keeping them in glorified camps for generations! Surely God will smile upon us.”

The dissonance and wickedness embedded within this line of thinking is, objectively, completely off the charts.

The headline: “Israel shows Mutilated Babies”

The picture: Palestinian children affected by Israeli airstrikes on Gaza.

This is the third day in a row they do this. https://t.co/jOzxmgqXcj

— Mohammed El-Kurd (@m7mdkurd) October 13, 2023

So this "day of rage". Announced a few days ago and I hadn't heard about it until last night when a superior at work suggested we not come in. Not an official decree from the company though, just the head of a department. Going online and I see reports of protests, one or two attacks in europe and thousands of posts from americans talking about their 2nd amendment rights.

Israel's president is denying the concept of innocent civilians, on the brink of a major military offensive. A very bad sign. https://t.co/bePxxDVEE6 pic.twitter.com/mdtWoYEGTJ

— Henry Mance (@henrymance) October 13, 2023

I didn't hear about this day of rage until right now. Uh, seems bad.

I saw it as “Day of Jihad” and it seems like a FacebookUncle holiday

Trying to think exactly what the phrase was so I could unwrap i properly but somebody used a term like unnecessary civilian damage or casualties to Chris Hayes a couple of days ago. Sounded pretty dodgy even on surface. Like there was a necessary level?

yeah it’s gussied up right wing nonsense, amazing how so many seeming liberals’ critical faculties atrophy in these moments

xp, the “global day of jihad” stuff. nypd “hasn’t received any credible threats,” of course

There was someone doing donuts on a bridge into NYC waving a Palestinian flag. Terrifying.

fuck Israel's president. jesus christ that rhetoric.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Dresden analogy in that Naftali Bennett interview.

I think he was saying the Allied Press didn't give a shit about what was happening in Dresden, because that was the enemy

The footage of someone doing donuts in New York was apparently fake. Afaik, it's from some other time and was a Puerto Rican flag. Everyone should be very vigilant against fake stuff on social media right now.

forced rapid expulsions of large numbers of civilians are never anything less than catastrophic and deadly even when done over weeks rather than hours. Was just recently reading a book on the subject called Orderly and Humane. The lack of pushback on this action from the West is just so predictable and depressing.

people do donuts all over the freeways in the bay area every single day and it is annoying but not some sign of impending jihad

unless the jihad is me going fucking psycho on them when they do them on the residential street near my house

Most of my childhood friends are Jewish and have exactly one viewpoint, which they believe to be the only sane and informed viewpoint. Most of my adult friends are lefty Americans and have exactly one (diametrically opposed) viewpoint, which they believe to be the only sane and informed viewpoint.

And then there's god...