Israel to World: "Suck It."

xp, the “global day of jihad” stuff. nypd “hasn’t received any credible threats,” of course

There was someone doing donuts on a bridge into NYC waving a Palestinian flag. Terrifying.

fuck Israel's president. jesus christ that rhetoric.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Dresden analogy in that Naftali Bennett interview.

I think he was saying the Allied Press didn't give a shit about what was happening in Dresden, because that was the enemy

The footage of someone doing donuts in New York was apparently fake. Afaik, it's from some other time and was a Puerto Rican flag. Everyone should be very vigilant against fake stuff on social media right now.

forced rapid expulsions of large numbers of civilians are never anything less than catastrophic and deadly even when done over weeks rather than hours. Was just recently reading a book on the subject called Orderly and Humane. The lack of pushback on this action from the West is just so predictable and depressing.

people do donuts all over the freeways in the bay area every single day and it is annoying but not some sign of impending jihad

unless the jihad is me going fucking psycho on them when they do them on the residential street near my house

Most of my childhood friends are Jewish and have exactly one viewpoint, which they believe to be the only sane and informed viewpoint. Most of my adult friends are lefty Americans and have exactly one (diametrically opposed) viewpoint, which they believe to be the only sane and informed viewpoint.

And then there's god...

Israel's president is denying the concept of innocent civilians, on the brink of a major military offensive. A very bad sign. https://t.co/bePxxDVEE6 pic.twitter.com/mdtWoYEGTJ

— Henry Mance (@henrymance) October 13, 2023

I know what you mean though. This point of view absolutely makes sense to the person sitting next to me right now, but sounds to me like madness.

YMP - this is why the extent of my posting on FB re this situation was a Heather Cox Richardson post share

*Anakin/Padme meme* - "the celebrities are going to start posting photos of missing Palestinian children next right?...... right?

man I can't deal with heather cox richardson's 75 paragraph posts.

YMP/Raymond -
I wonder if this is a Gen X vs. Millennial thing; all of my Jewish friends (not tons but...) and the younger members of my (Jewish) family are all opposed to violence by the state of Israel. The older generations are, you know, opposed to violence but are pro-Israel and see it as justified. Noticed the same thing with my wife - she was surprised a friend of hers was really open about supporting Palestine (mid-fifties person), but to me... it's not unusual. Not sure what this means or portends. If anything.

Raymond C. I would be a bit more chill if I hadn't just seen THREE real humans - people who I've known all my life - do this specific thing.

They simultaneously say "ask me anything and I will give you unbiased information that is nuanced and fact-based," while they also have an Israeli flag as their profile picture with "I stand with Israel."

Personally I understand why some folks "stand with Israel."

What I DO NOT understand is someone who simultaneously says "I stand with Israel" but is also like "maybe you don't understand the history so let me school you." Thanks, but I would rather not be schooled by someone who has already announced their enduring allegiance, and it is... unsurprisingly, exactly what I thought it would be.

How convenient that you have come, after careful consideration, to exactly the same conclusion that you would have come to when we met in 1979.

xp to ian, judging by the folks i know from my childhood, it is not a generational thing

i've seen a fair mix, my wife is shook by everything but empathetic towards palestinian people, and would rather not think about the whole thing because it makes her feel helpless. her friend's husband is israeli and his whole family is back there, and obviously he's terrified. my friend is israel is okay, thankfully, but she's only physically ok, mentally she's a mess. i have other friends here who are more vocally opposed to the israeli response, plus at least one guy i know who seems to be Team Hamas to a degree that fits in with his pro-Kanye/Kyrie thoughts around the time of their "opinions" on Jewish people. there are a few younger jewish acquaintances who are deeply pained by the entire israeli response, my sense being that they're not feeling as if there should be ZERO response but not a response that will target civilians at all.

at my son's school there was a kid in his class who purportedly told some israeli kids in another class that he supported Hamas. that perhaps obv led to a fight. i think the other kids had picked on him before, maybe he just reached for something to lash out at them with. it's just such an ugly situation, trickling down to the kids on the other side of the world.

Essentially: This is horrible on its face, but it's ALSO nuanced and complicated historically, but in one very glaring present aspect pretty simple, but then at the same time I haven't read/studied enough on the whole thing to have a cogent, penetrating thing to say about it (in part because it's historically and socially and interpersonally fraught for obvious reasons) that won't erupt into some pretty brutal timeline arguments that will result in me deleting the post and then never posting about it again, because I'm deeply argument/confrontation averse, for better or worse.

TL/DR: "I don't know why I'm still on social media"

This isn't to say that my feelings are worth more than any person's life, but that I don't know if me weighing in (again, without enough context to offer much of value) contributes anything to the larger discourse/mood.

Holy fuck. They hit a children's hospital with white phosphorous. What the fuck. https://t.co/xZcqHcwFax

— Anthony Doyle (@Anthonysmdoyle) October 13, 2023

Article I linked earlier has been 'updated'.

https://twotter.com/adamjohnsonCHI/status/1712850249994125447?s=20

SCOOP– Hours after Israel ordered an exodus in Gaza, State Department officials circulated internal warnings against 3 phrases:
"de-escalation/ceasefire"
"end to violence/bloodshed"
"restoring calm"
It's the latest sign the US won't urge Israeli restrainthttps://t.co/208jxoVP3e

— Akbar Shahid Ahmed (@AkbarSAhmed) October 13, 2023

this language has now been removed from the article. The quote is authentic and was reported by several other outlets-> https://t.co/h7erK2sd0Z

Archived version on the left, live version on the right https://t.co/Gf7Utc5jkG pic.twitter.com/ucVZN595sM

— Adam H. Johnson (@adamjohnsonCHI) October 13, 2023

xp

Xp to Raymond - Yeah, the terrifying feeling of helplessness sometimes makes me feel like I need to contribute to the discourse in some way, just because it feels like the only thing I can do. But that's not a reason to post. It can be therapeutic to commiserate with people who feel the way you do but you're not gonna get that on social media.

The depths the Israelis have gone to...what a catastrophe

The Israeli military told Palestinians in Gaza must flee the north towards the south then they bombed them as they fled. Most international correspondents are in the safety of Tel Aviv and haven’t reported on this. Livid isn’t enough of a word

— Mohammed El-Kurd (@m7mdkurd) October 13, 2023

Right, Fetchboy? Right?

My longer post above is probably true of a whole lot of people who also are aghast and CARE but feel hesitant to step into this discussion in a public way - the people who seemingly "are going about their business like it's any day or any week".

A billionaire private equity firm CEO is calling on the leaders of the University of Pennsylvania to resign and for donors to "close their checkbooks" to the school over what he says is their failure to sufficiently condemn antisemitic events on campus prior to Hamas’ terror attack on Israel.

Rowan took issue with a Palestinian literature festival held on UPenn’s campus Sept. 22-24 and featured several alleged antisemitic speakers, writing: "It took less than two weeks to go from the Palestine Writes literary festival on the University of Pennsylvania’s campus to the barbaric slaughter and kidnapping of Israelis.

War makes reporting very hard, but we were talking upthread about asking for verification. The account that posted that also reposted Hamas propaganda about how nicely Hamas is treating the Israeli babies and small children they took hostage.

xp

Raymond, one can easily get lost in "a retaliation for an attack that was in retaliation for an attack that was in retaliation for an attack that was in retaliation for an attack."

I would love to live in a world that was less about "who started it?" And more about "who'll stop it," but that isn't the world we inhabit.

Also, I'd like to request that when criticizing the actions of Hamas or the Israeli government we refer to them as such and not as "the Palestinians" or "the Israelis"

My mind spins out of control any time I try to work through the history and implications of the conflict, but it's not hard to think that targeting civilians can't possibly good, period. And if anyone says "well nothing else works!" I would say "If this is 'working' maybe we should go back to things not working."

Man alive otm

Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant: “Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything.” pic.twitter.com/aI6Y0o1YuP

— Hammam Farah (@therapisthammam) October 13, 2023

I'm just shocked that the West is standing with a call for 1.1M people to move out because of their ethnicity. Even the UN is still stuck on "but humanitarian crisis". Where are these people going to go? Egypt ? Jordania ? Lebanese border ? Refugee camps ? Europe ?

Always suspected the TikTok bass-kick-synth-arpeggio would be the musical signature for end-times dystopia, but it's still a grim exclamation point every time

Also, I'd like to request that when criticizing the actions of Hamas or the Israeli government we refer to them as such and not as "the Palestinians" or "the Israelis"

otm, I make a point to separate out Hamas and Likud from the rest of the population when I can, but I haven't seen anyone on my feed doing that, and it's been most disturbing by a few individuals who posted at length why we should support Israel while never referring to Palestinians or Hamas by name, only referring to inhuman monsters who have "sworn destruction of the Jewish people," etc., and I want to ask "are you referring to Hamas or all Palestinians" but I don't think the resulting social media shouting match would be constructive. In light of Isaac Herzog's comments, I got a bad feeling they're on the same page.

I'm just shocked that the West is standing with a call for 1.1M people to move out because of their ethnicity. Even the UN is still stuck on "but humanitarian crisis". Where are these people going to go? Egypt ? Jordania ? Lebanese border ? Refugee camps ? Europe ?

This really is turning into the American right's mental invasion of Iraq that was speciously justified by 9/11, with the same lop-sided reprisal.

Egypt is reportedly not opening their borders to refugees

Surely the argument that all Palestinians are responsible for teh actions of Hamas must extend to all Israelis are responsible for the shelling and whatever other activity has been aimed at teh Palestinians. Which is surely a circular set up. & needs to berecognised and somehow stepped back from.

Though think that the blinkered perspective is going to -prevent the Israelis from seeing how if taht was seen to apply equally one could surely only have one conclusion. THough doesn't excuse anything.

JKust been running through my head the old story about onee side killing members of the other just lead to further recruitment with an eye on revenge . Which I think I've heard said about recruitment to IRA and several other long term feud sewt ups.

It wasn't so long ago there were people from all over the world signing up with Isis because they were out there killing people

israel bombs the convoys it told to head south to safety https://t.co/OU75MHN4Nn pic.twitter.com/N7yYHBRFYw

— Tate James 📵 (@tatejamesdotcom) October 13, 2023

Also, I'd like to request that when criticizing the actions of Hamas or the Israeli government we refer to them as such and not as "the Palestinians" or "the Israelis"

― Chyiv Kyiv (Fetchboy), Friday, 13 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

The Israeli state is committing genocide and there will might be significantly smaller number of Palestinians in a few weeks.

My apologies if I don't mind my language now and then.

But China are the repressive regime.

what even is the point of book publishing pic.twitter.com/VVXfR9aFM1

— miri (@miri_yam_) October 13, 2023

Just been running through my head the old story about one side killing members of the other just lead to further recruitment with an eye on revenge

One of my frustrations with the peace process is that even if a deal is ever reached, it'll take at least a generation of peace or at least consistent actions towards that end to convince people that everyone can co-exist and that the violence and bigotry indoctrinated into anyone can be seeped out with generational change. Imagine if by some miracle that happened with a different Israeli government 16 years ago or if Rabin hadn't been assassinated - instead, if you were a child in 2007 who just went through 16 years of apartheid, think of the anger or resentment that produces, and how many people that probably fucks up psychologically.

Gaza residents organise dozens of protests refusing to evacuate chanting “we prefer to die and not to be humiliated” #Gaza pic.twitter.com/2x2hcJCJqG

— Sameh Habeeb (@Samehahabeeb) October 13, 2023

This really is turning into the American right's mental invasion of Iraq that was speciously justified by 9/11, with the same lop-sided reprisal.

― birdistheword, Friday, 13 October 2023 18:06 (two hours ago) link

I don't really think this is an apt comparison. Iraq literally had nothing to do with 9/11. Hamas actually killed over 1200 people and kidnapped another 150 including children and babies.

Yeah, my mistake - I was thinking of the rationale for inflicting far more harm in retaliation, but it's a poor comparison when those details aren't similar.

Here's Jonathan M. Katz's write-up where he makes this sobering observation:

"...half of Gaza’s population is under 18, and nearly 40 percent is under 15. What happens now will shape the next decades of life in Gaza, Israel, and beyond; how many grow up in both places believing, as Netanyahu does, that the only path to survival and freedom is through violence, casting new iron walls of their own."