More importantly, is there actually a difference?
― Greg, Tuesday, 14 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 14 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Kris, Tuesday, 14 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― carsmilesteve, Tuesday, 14 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Richard Tunnicliffe, Tuesday, 14 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Ally, Tuesday, 14 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Also, Waitrose is better than Morrisons.
― matthew james, Tuesday, 14 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Billy Dods, Tuesday, 14 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Though The North is like a totally different country compared to the south. Because in The South, the Big Issue is just called the Big Issue but in The North it's called Big Issue In The North. Crazy.
In Manchester, people wander around the Arndale Centre smoking fags. In Kingston, they'd set the dogs on you if you tried that in the Bentalls Centre.
Who was it who did a song called The Myth Of The North/South Divide? Was it McCarthy. Yes, I think so. It's not a myth though, there is a divide. Like in London, buses have two sets of doors - one by the driver and one by the stairs. They don't in Manchester (to stop scallies jumping on without paying). I'm not sure where in the county buses lose their other door. Actually, the one-door buss thing has a perverse side affect in that everyone says "thank you" to the bus driver when they get off, so it kind of encourages courtesy as well as discouraging scalliness - ace.
The one thing I found living in Manchester was that Mancunians really do hate southerners - Londoners especially. But southerners - Londoners especially - don't hate northerners. Southerners - Londoners especially - don't ever even think about northerners.
― jamesmichaelward, Tuesday, 14 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Mark Morris, Tuesday, 14 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― DG, Tuesday, 14 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Scott, Tuesday, 14 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Mark M is half-right (London *is* unique) but London and the SE are so dependent on each other in financial / fiscal / social terms (where would the wealth of the SE come from without London?) as to make the "nothing to do" line ludicrous. There is no strict divide between London and everything else, but London's influence on the rest of Britain is just so massive, (far more than the other way round), and I think most resentment towards London comes from this: my point is that "England" cannot be separate from London because *it gets so much of its cultural input* from London. As I always say (and have bored enough people with by now), the High Romantic idea of "the countryside" has nothing to do with how most people in it actually live their lives, and this is where the London-vs-everywhere- else idea falls apart. I was born in Lambeth and I see myself as a supplanted Londoner anyway (talks and thinks quick, left-wing, tolerant) but applying this to other environments.
I have so little experience of the North of England that I can hardly answer this question. But, if I have an answer, it would be anywhere I feel I can get on in life and feel at home. Therefore I love the place in which I live but hate the town 10 miles to the north (amusingly, someone has actually put a sign "WELCOME TO THE NORTH" where Weymouth ends and Dorchester begins: Dorchester-as-North DUD DUD DUD DUD DUD).
Carsmilesteve, aren't you from Cheltenham?
― Robin Carmody, Tuesday, 14 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
But I guess, what I've done, is I've compared Worcester Park with Fallowfield rather than comparing The North with The South. I've not really answered the question have I? If this was an exam, I'd get no marks for what I wrote.
Anyway, Surbiton is *way* more cosmopolitan than Worcester Park...
― dave q, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― gareth, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Mark Morris, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Richard Tunnicliffe, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
But obviously the North is better cos we speak proper, like.
FAAAAHHHK AWWWRRFFFFF.
― Sarah, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Nick, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tim, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
i of course consider such attitudes disgraceful
― mark s, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Have no north/south preference but I hate fucking West London, I do.
― suzy, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Right hand neighbours are what is known as a MYSTERY to me. Sometimes I hear their door banging but never see anyone there.
People across in the other block listen to loud ravey music 24/7. In fact I think it is probably GREG SCARTH, you git.
― Emma, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Pete, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Divide *within* Dorset roughly along constituency lines - West and North more Tory, many fewer people moving in from outside, a lot of foxhunting etc: South (my patch) much more Labour support, edgier, rougher, more move in: Mid and North Poole generally Lib Dem, "new economy" and technocracy, Poole and Bournemouth vast conurbation and more and more studenty, Christchurch very genteel / retired. The split here is a North / South one (rural areas of West and East much the same): "deep country" / more socially mobile coastal areas. Interested in more such divides within counties from those who've lived there.
Mark M's and Gareth's myths both very true: I have literally never had a conversation with my neighbours, and this is no inner-city area ...
Mark S, I imagine people in Hertfordshire feeling like that when the new towns came in: wasn't Telford basically the Stevenage / Basildon etc. of the Birmingham / West Midlands overspill?
Billy: I could never have faced the National Centre for Popular Music in Sheffield (which was criticised *for the wrong reasons* by the usual trad-right Blair-bashers) after Momus's hagiography 2 years back. Great writing. "Elton John's sales figures" indeed!
― Robin Carmody, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
1. Momus wrote a hagiography of the National Pop Music Centre that referenced Elton John's
2. Part of this involved mentioning the focus given to Elton John's sales figures
3. This put you off
The mystery might me solved in a rather dull way if you are misusing the word 'hagiography'
― Tom, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
It's my sleep deprivation, Nick. It all fits ...
― Greg, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Billy Dods, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Naughty North or the Sexy South? Dunno, but if London and Birmingham could swop places = Classic!
― DavidM, Wednesday, 15 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― patrick, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Anthony
― Anthony Sanderson, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― gareth, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― mark s, Tuesday, 15 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Nicole, Tuesday, 15 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― chris, Tuesday, 15 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Chris, don't summon Candyman Pinefox. These days, he's all about disparaging me.
― N., Tuesday, 15 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― DG, Tuesday, 15 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
No = no one, it's too much effort to bother writing out complete sentences when it comes to N.
there's a case to be made for the moral superiority of the north in terms of how much more plausible their lumpen mra/roid psycho was compared to this cargo cult imbecile
Inside-mind-Wolverine-Videos-reveal-bizarre-ramblings-21-year-old-triple-murder-suspect-struggled-cope-mother-s-alcoholism-parents-separation-job-hated.html
― serene manish (nakhchivan), Monday, 25 May 2015 12:24 (eight years ago) link
great dn
this lad needed a nice youth club but there all closed now
― an absolute feast of hardcore fanboy LOLs surrounding (imago), Monday, 25 May 2015 12:37 (eight years ago) link
I've come to the conclusion and, the fact that this thread exists helps confirm it, that the Midlands is a bit of a mystery to me. For a start, I don't know where anything is. I had no idea Leicester was so far south and Stafford was so far north and what is Northampton? The accents are confusing, Leicester is slightly northern, Northampton sounds "Midlands". I don't know what's in the Midlands and what isn't either. Derby is the Midlands, right? Is Shrewsbury? Peterborough? Crewe? Worcester is but Cambridge isn't?
― Hunky Tory (Tom D.), Sunday, 7 April 2024 10:51 (one month ago) link
Derby is classic Midlands, Shrewsbury I never feel is nor Worcester, and i feel v borderline about Crewe - perhaps because it feels it’s one of those places that’s in no sort of zone at all. imv The Midlands is that cluster of industrial towns - Birmingham, Derby, Nottingham, Stoke, Leicester, Staffs. Peterborough’s that Lincolnshire and fenland country for me. Yeah Northampton feels the southmost tip of the Midlands to me.
― Fizzles, Sunday, 7 April 2024 11:02 (one month ago) link
to me for me jesus.
too many questions to spitball all of them at once. my first proposition would be that anywhere Staffordshire as now constituted and Derbyshire are at least partly more a kind of pre-North than tru Midlands. kind of. Shropshire & southern Cheshire too, but then they've both got a Welsh marches thing going on as well
― Bitchin Doutai (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 April 2024 11:03 (one month ago) link
Notts & Leicestershire also not quite tru Midlands either, or East Midlands as a discrete entity at least
― Bitchin Doutai (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 April 2024 11:04 (one month ago) link
i mean this is a big parcel of vibes that i don't want to spout certainties on but can't help playing with anyway
― Bitchin Doutai (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 April 2024 11:05 (one month ago) link
welsh marches and The Ambiguity of Cheshire < yes. i’m firm on Derby and Notts tho. otm about vibes obv. my entirely correct but continuously shifting vibes based analysis.
― Fizzles, Sunday, 7 April 2024 11:11 (one month ago) link
Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire definitely seem northern because of the accents.
― Hunky Tory (Tom D.), Sunday, 7 April 2024 11:16 (one month ago) link
accents is part of it yeah, i guess underlying stuff about the industrial base and the geography, the gravity around Birmingham, idk need to think more on the vibes. obv "the Midlands" shouldn't be reduced to a monoculture any more than "the North" or "the South"
― Bitchin Doutai (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 April 2024 11:28 (one month ago) link
the Peaks is its own gravitational centre maybe
― Bitchin Doutai (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 April 2024 11:29 (one month ago) link
Worcester is but Cambridge isn't?
I'm from Worcester, which is definitely in the Midlands. I live in Cambridge, which is somewhere between East Anglia (which is sort of another thing?) and Estuary English-land, neither of which is the Midlands, but the top bit of Cambridgeshire where it turns into Peterborough is definitely East Midlands.I'm also from Herefordshire, which has Midlands TV but feels sort of like its own thing, not quite Wales, not quite West Country. And my mum now lives in Stratford (Upon Avon), which is in Warwickshire (so Midlands?) but feels more like The South to me.In conclusion The Midlands is a land of contrasts
― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 7 April 2024 11:52 (one month ago) link
Worcester is on this finger of Midlandsness which stretches down along the M5, from Bromsgrove and Droitwich, but then you've got The Malvern Hills which do not feel Midlandsy
― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 7 April 2024 11:55 (one month ago) link
Weird that Lincolnshire, or parts of it, are classed as East Midlands. It seems something different both geographically and culturally.
― Dan Worsley, Sunday, 7 April 2024 12:07 (one month ago) link
Lincolnshire is this corner of England that I haven't been to and know nothing about but it's neither out of the way nor small. Nottingham I get, Hull too. In between, a complete blank. What's there?
― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 7 April 2024 12:12 (one month ago) link
shrewsbury (shropshire) is of course the *west* midlands
here is a good youtube that explains everything: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muGjr7vnElY
― mark s, Sunday, 7 April 2024 12:12 (one month ago) link
WATCH ON YOUTUBE FOR EVERYTHING TO BE EXPLAINED (i am not the video owner)
― mark s, Sunday, 7 April 2024 12:13 (one month ago) link
my first proposition would be that anywhere Staffordshire as now constituted and Derbyshire are at least partly more a kind of pre-North than tru Midlands
Notts & Leicestershire also not quite tru Midlands either
Noooo, what is this? All of these places are proper Midlands! Staffs is more West Midlands, Derby & Notts & Leicester all East Midlands, and there is a bit of a different 'style' of Midlandsiness between West and East, though if you ask me to clarify I'd be hard pushed to answer.
I will give you that Stoke feels 'pre-North' to me. Peterborough and Northampton just squeak into being technically Midlands but they feel 'pre-South'.
― emil.y, Sunday, 7 April 2024 12:52 (one month ago) link
Lincolnshire is weirdly big. I think of it as Lincoln cathedral and the good university a bunch of friends work at, but it's also Skegness and Grimsby and where Thatcher was born.
― emil.y, Sunday, 7 April 2024 12:55 (one month ago) link
(xp) Peterborough's north of Birmingham!
― Hunky Tory (Tom D.), Sunday, 7 April 2024 13:04 (one month ago) link
Yeah, and in the same way, Stoke's only just more notherly than Nottingham in actual location, it just feels different! It might be because Peterborough's actually in Cambridgeshire, which is totally a southerner's county.
― emil.y, Sunday, 7 April 2024 13:12 (one month ago) link
Notherly? Northerly, you know what I mean.
― emil.y, Sunday, 7 April 2024 13:13 (one month ago) link
Notherly is probably in the Midlands though.
― Hunky Tory (Tom D.), Sunday, 7 April 2024 13:16 (one month ago) link
Okay, hang on, need to check if this opinion is controversial... East Anglia is part of The South. Is that just me or is that a commonly accepted feeling?
― emil.y, Sunday, 7 April 2024 13:16 (one month ago) link
East Anglia and the West Midlands are their own (single and unified) region
a lot of the issue here is that england's second city (the birmingham-wolverhampton agglomerate) functions as a vast undervalued cultural black hole for reasons that ozzy osbourne and kevin rowland have spent a lifetime explaining to northern AND southern melts (who comprehend this not)
― mark s, Sunday, 7 April 2024 13:35 (one month ago) link
We need Adrian Chiles to arbitrate on this matter.
― Dan Worsley, Sunday, 7 April 2024 13:40 (one month ago) link
the black hole thesis is basically the same as the one for modern times that cambrian chronicles offers on youtube re pre-norman times in "the medieval kingdom that was erased from history" btw (also known as "video unavailable")
(content warning: giraldus cambrensis as one of the sources)
― mark s, Sunday, 7 April 2024 13:49 (one month ago) link
as a Wessie my main definition of Yorkshire is the hilly terrain, which is why flat zones like Doncaster feel quite alien to me and could be anywhere similar to Northampton - whereas towns of Lancashire on the edge of the S Pennines like Rochdale feel more like home to me.
― vodkaitamin effrtvescent (calzino), Sunday, 7 April 2024 14:44 (one month ago) link
I'm from Worcester, which is definitely in the Midlands.
* waves *
one thing that really confuses me is when people from the midlands say they are northern. it's not something I've seen on ilx in recent times but I do remember someone posting that they were from Wolverhampton and also they were northern and being like **wtf**?!?!? no
― Colonel Poo, Sunday, 7 April 2024 14:46 (one month ago) link
but the top bit of Cambridgeshire where it turns into Peterborough is definitely East Midlands.
I have a friend here from that bit and he def sounds like he's from the East Midlands. tbf Peterborough historically was in Northamptonshire they just picked it up and moved it into Cambridgeshire brick-by-brick in 1889
― Colonel Poo, Sunday, 7 April 2024 14:49 (one month ago) link
To get even more granular, the bit to the East of Peterborough, Fenland, is definitely East Anglia but is probably not East Midlands. Don't know if I'd call it "South" though. All I know is that it's officially the most miserable place in the UK - https://www.fenlandcitizen.co.uk/news/people-from-fenland-the-most-unhappy-in-the-uk-9045306/
― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 7 April 2024 15:02 (one month ago) link
another vanished kingdom: west anglia
― mark s, Sunday, 7 April 2024 15:04 (one month ago) link
Lives on in this institution - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_West_Anglia
― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 7 April 2024 15:05 (one month ago) link
Staffs is more West Midlands
i know you're right but i mean kind of? South Staffs used to contain Walsall and maybe the entire Black Country, but it doesn't any more - and North Staffs is Stoke and whatever that is
Derby & Notts & Leicester all East Midlands, and there is a bit of a different 'style' of Midlandsiness between West and East
this is also "right" but Derby is pulled North by the Peaks maybe and then places like Chesterfield feel like the almost-North too
― Bitchin Doutai (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 April 2024 15:09 (one month ago) link
Nottingham and Leicester i'll give to the East Midlands absolutely, other bits of Notts i feel a little differently about, when i think about Derby i know in my heart it's the Midlands i just prefer to ignore it out of existence
― Bitchin Doutai (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 April 2024 15:11 (one month ago) link
not the entire Black Country - Dudley & Stourbridge were in Worcestershire
― Colonel Poo, Sunday, 7 April 2024 15:17 (one month ago) link
oh yeah good shout
― Bitchin Doutai (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 April 2024 15:18 (one month ago) link
the North starts at Stoke as any fule kno
― fetter, Sunday, 7 April 2024 18:31 (one month ago) link
kay, hang on, need to check if this opinion is controversial... East Anglia is part of The South. Is that just me or is that a commonly accepted feeling?― emil.y, Sunday, 7 April 2024 14:16 bookmarkflaglink
― emil.y, Sunday, 7 April 2024 14:16 bookmarkflaglink
I don't think this should be controversial but has made me think - technically I am from south of the Watford Gap and I have lived in the south my entire adult life, but I still think of myself as a midlander and probably always will, I strongly believe the midlands is its own thing and not north or south. but some of East Anglia is further north than the west midlands - Norwich is further north than Birmingham for instance
on the other hand I call my mum "mom"
― Colonel Poo, Sunday, 7 April 2024 23:22 (one month ago) link
there is also "the west is its own thing" argument which I personally agree with - the south west/West Country doesn't have a whole lot to do with the rest of the south and probably has no reason to be grouped together with it really
― Colonel Poo, Sunday, 7 April 2024 23:33 (one month ago) link
West Country / London / Anglia / Central / Yorkshire / Border / Meridian / Granada / Tyne Tees - I don't make the rules
― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 8 April 2024 00:04 (one month ago) link
tbf that sort of works
― Colonel Poo, Monday, 8 April 2024 00:36 (one month ago) link