Questions for Jehovah Witnesses

"We never did that. Some brothers have gotten carried away in the past, but since then, the brothers at Bethel have received 'The New Light.'"

A: But doesn't it say in these issues of The Watchtower (pulls out three or four from 50s - 70s) specific dates? Look at the paragraphs I've highlighted.

"Yes, I see what you mean. But, since then, we have received 'The New Light.'"

And neither is Prince.

"Yes, I see what you mean. But, since then, we have received 'The New Light.'"

Never heard anyone say that.

Maybe you're out of the loop because they've been saying that since the mid-90s when the New Light became the new excuse for why Armageddon hasn't come yet. The WTS received the "new light" (ummm... how exactly? are they communicating directly with God now?) that they always knew, of course, but which now they are going to strictly adhere to so as not to make asses out of themselves: nobody but God knows when The End will come! The "New Light" was revealed/received when it appeared that everyone from the generation of 1914 must be about dead by now and previously they had predicted that Armageddon would come before the end of the generation of 1914, due to some Biblical passage which they interpreted incorrectly. They took the WWI to be incredibly significant in relation to the prophecies of the "end times" and are basically always convinced everything is getting worse and worse, as the Bible predicted.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/napoleon.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/reasons.html

Napoloean Dynamite's family being JWs would explain a lot.

I'm hardly out of the loop. Maybe you're apostate with too much time on your hands.

I seriously hope that was a joke.

If not, do some research, Kate. You're out of the loop. Or your family (I presume) isn't really paying too much attention. Google "New Light."

New Light is not something JW's like to dwell on, so I would not be surprised if you haven't heard it mentioned. My mom had never brought it up until I mentioned it. And she was quick to get off the subject! She was like "New Light?" And when I explained it to her, she said, "Oh yeah, the New Light. That's old news. What about it?" When I asked her, she had simply remembered all the Armageddon prophecies as some unofficial fiasco about certain brothers getting carried away and they never should've tried to predict Armageddon, anyway. When I pointed out it was The Watchtower, she said (basically), "So what?"

We can't treat either of you if you get injured.

In other words, not just "some brothers getting carried away," but the official governing body of the whole religion, The Watchtower Tract Society.

Duh.

When The New Light was "revealed" lots of people left the religion.Somehow, the JWs are still going stronger than ever, though.

It amazes me how, over the years, I can see how my mom and brother have become more and more manipulated, brainwashed into complacency. If I bring up stuff like the New Light, for instance, that would have been a pretty big issue back in 1986, today they just shrug it off. It's as if they have become lazier while remaining ever more vigilant. I suppose it is easy when you look around and the world seems to be going down the tubes, "in accordance with prophecy."

Hey man, go fuck yourself.

The Watchtower Society believes that in 1918 it was appointed as God's channel of information to humankind. The Society issues new information when the time is right ("in due season"). This takes the form of both doctrinal refinements and reversals. (For examples of actual reversals, consider the Society's position on organ transplants, or their redefinition of "this generation" in Matthew 24.)

The "New Light" doctrine is the principle that "the light keeps getting brighter and brighter". It means that although the Watchtower Society does make errors,

The Biblical prophets didn't seem to make these mistakes, but the members of the Governing Body seldom claim to be prophets. As a result, they are not obliged to pass the basic Biblical test for prophets (i.e. if what they say fails to come true, then they are not true prophets).

Notwithstanding their assertion that they are not prophets, since the 1880's they have repeatedly and emphatically stated that we are living in the "time of the end".

If what they say is true, and we are indeed living in "the last days", then this leads us to an awkward question...

Why, at this critical stage of human history, would God allow his chosen servants to publish information that needs to be revised each year?

http://members.aol.com/beyondjw/newlight.htm

HI-LARRY-US.

Hmm. Maybe you should go listen to the New Radicals. Maybe you've been brainwashed, too. Little defensive.

Yeah, that was really over the line to presume your family are JW's and that they weren't paying attention based on what you've said.

Catholics men laugh when they go to pre-cana and the women actually do what the priest tells them (not fuck before the wedding)-- "Hey, Jenny got religious all of a sudden?! Last I knew the only thing she was religious about was putting coke up her nose! Ha, ha!" Well, isn't that the whole point of the religion, that we are all sinners and Christ will accept us all, but you have to follow his rules? If you're a Catholic couple getting married in a church and going to pre-cana, why the hell wouldn't you follow the rules? What the fuck is the point of having a nice, Catholic wedding if you don't give a shit about being Catholic?

I'm not pro-JW but I'm not anti-JW. I'm interested in why people invest their lives in being told what to do by someone else posing as God's spokesperson.

eesh!

Only the lucky few animals who were not locked in apartments.

Me too. I have many thoughts on this issue. More later tonight.

Leela: "no he DIDN'T."

"They actually don't believe in hell. They just believe that people who aren't JWs will not inherit God's Kingdom because they follow "Babylon the Great" or what they call "false religion". They won't tell you this up front if you talk to them so they don't scare you off. The only real item on the agenda of JWs knocking on your door is converting you into a JW!

Instead of hell they use Armageddon to put fear into their followers. The reward for being "one of the great flock" is everlasting life under God's Government, and not mans, in paradise on earth. The "little flock" is the 144,000 going to heaven and they certainly don't believe anyone is being bumped out (again all of them are JW). Most of these people are already dead. Only they partake of the wine or bread during passover. One belonged to our congregation. They possess an inner knowing that they are one. These positions might have been secretly designated after 1914. Even a very zealous young JW today would be called a Heretic if he or she claimed this position.

They have an inner order just like, say, the Golden Dawn. They have access to information that the rest do not. Elders lead the congregation. A faithfull and discreet slave
is like an apprentice to be an Elder. Traveling Ministers are above Elders and visit the different congregations. The people at the very top make changes to the doctrines at will and say that "new things have come to light." Everyone get's excited and believes it immediately. This often happens at an Assembly where new books are usually released.

Knowledge and higher education outside of the organization is discouraged as is ANY negative talk against the organization. Wrong doers are disfellowshiped or excommunicated. Former JW that speak up against the organization are called Apostates and demonized. They clearly use mind control tactics, making it a cult in my opinion.

Here's a really weird fact they you won't hear often. Charles Taze Russell, founder of the organization was likely a Freemason (as well as false prophet)!

Read ALL of this to judge for yourself:

http://www.macgregorministries.org/...ssellmason.html"

That's wrong. What the person is referring to is a Ministerial Servant.

Yeah, I forget what the Faithful and Discreet Slave actually is. It's a phrase I remember hearing a lot, though. It's some metaphor for some invisible force, IIRC, like "Holy Spirit" (although that's different). Maybe it's an apostle, with an important administrative job in heaven? Something like that.

They clearly use mind control tactics, making it a cult in my opinion.

Yes, and the indoctrination from early childhood is particularly damaging. "Don't have friends outside of the organization, don't go to school any more than you absolutely have to, don't question anything we tell you." It works.

Also, there's some weird sexual repression going on there, and allegations of child molestation pop up a lot. I remember one guy I knew in the church (they don't call it church, but it's a shorter word) ended up getting kicked out for breaking into girls' houses and leaving polariods of his dick in their underwear drawer. Creepy, creepy stuff.

One thing up above is especially true and so true its shocking to me to even consider now: they announce "new things have come to light" and everyone believes it immediately! I remember everyone congregating in the hallways during those assemblies with big dopey smiles on their faces about the new things that have come to light during the morning lectures. "Wow! What an eye opener!" They never questioned anything and subsequently the kids believe everything and anything you tell them as well, up to a certain age at least.

The main thing I remember, besides being a dysfunctional outcast with all the other kids in the local JW Kingdom Hall, was that they often pointed out how wrong people were to call them a "cult." They would point out how even the US Government recognizes them as a religious organization but NOT a cult. I think that is clearly an oversight on the USA's part that needs to be corrected.

As a matter of fact, in my Kingdom Hall (sorry to use such a queer term), one of the Circuit Overseers had big prolonged meetings with the elders and 4 elders ended up losing their position as elders, one of whom was my uncle. This made me very happy since my uncle was an angry, angry little two-faced prick hypocrite.

One of the other elders was molesting his own children, but I didn't find this out until over a decade later when my mom told me. She acted surprised that I was surprised, "YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT?!" Well, how could I? The JWs weren't supposed to talk and nobody was supposed to know why the elders lost their position other than they "erred." And they certainly weren't supposed to tell the blabbermouthkids this. What is MOST interesting is that the child molester was not reported to the police or even disfellowshipped. He merely lost his role as an elder.

His daughters were the ones being molested and they were friends of my mom. This is how my mother found out. I think when they saw that nothing happened to their dad, they talked to anyone who would listen and told their story, even though they weren't supposed to. My mother is so warped that she will not associate with one of these daughters who has since become disfellowshipped, when clearly the woman has psychological issues from her upbringing and abuse. She thought she was possessed and was passed around from elder to elder's house (I wonder if she was molested by more than one elder?!) and she ended up marrying a "worldly" guy who beat her and was an alcoholic. I have no idea what happened to her, but my mom didn't seem too sympathetic to her plight after she got a letter from the woman out of the blue saying "I'm glad your son (me) never bought into the JWs. He was a smart kid."

Totally unsurprising. My parents were always gossiping about what so-and-so was doing, or why he got disfellowshipped. We had an inside track to a lot of this info. My grandfather was an elder, often told things to his wife, who was totally untrustworty and told my mother, who then told my father, and etc. Most everyone knew who was cheating on who's wife most of the time. But in the case of something truly creepy, like Dickboy, everyone kept their secrets.

Thing is, when an elder cheated on his wife, he would be out of there immediately. When he touched children in their bathing suit area, the other elders would either merely take away his elder status or admonish him privately and do nothing. Certainly no cops were ever called. It's the Catholic Church all over again. It was not to be discussed. Gotta protect your own. My mom often knew of these goings on, but refrained from discussing them in front of her children for reasons I cannot quite fathom. Cheating on your wife, that I was allowed to know. People who might be a real danger to me, that was never discussed.

I think that religious organizations when viewed on the very surface seem to have a pure and wholesome ideal, but humans are human and not god or even godlike; they are people with agendas and traits such as greed, sexual perversions & power hunger that eventually corrupt the whole ideal into something really strange & cultlike where children seem to be come innocent victims of brainwashing and it all leads to despair and horror.

OT, what are the "Jobs Daughters". Aren't they an offshoot of JW? Or am I totally confused and offbase (well, I am that anyway all the time *grin*).

Probably blamed the really weird and creepy stuff on those ever-present pesky demons.

Oh, yeah, I hadn't thought of that in years. My grandmother used to tell us all the time about how demons are real, and relate wild stories to us about, for instance, a family of JWs watching a movie that had ghosts in it, and the ghosts jumping out of the television and terrorizing them, but they couldn't leave because the doorknobs were hot, and the only way they got out was by calling an elder in the congregation to come get them. That kind of ridiculousness was ever-present. Anything bad was because of Satan, which is a nice way to absolve yourself of personal responsibility, and a great way to scare your children into complacency.

You answered your own question. Of course they are eager to hear and tell such stories -- such stories reinforce their belief that the world is an evil place, and that only Jehovah can save them, and most (all?) JWs have by then been reduced to believing that being a JW is the only thing worth living for. It's not psychosis, per se, but it's very effective brainwashing.

This is why they usually recruit people who are hopeless to begin with, and dirt-poor to boot. People who have already lost all faith in this world are the prime candidates for belief in the next one. This is true in any religion, I guess.

Are JW adults encouraged to lie to their children

No, they're encouraged to pass down the wisdom of the Truth.

I like how all the books have all the questions prepared for you! From paragraph 1 to paragraph 6, there are 2 questions that are answered. Ask us those questions and maybe we can find the answers in paragraphs 1 to 6. Other questions? Hm, maybe you should talk to an elder about what's wrong with your faith so he can pile more study and door-to-door service on you. No? Okay, then shut the hell up and ask the right questions. The questions we tell you to ask.

Having been already trained in this method allowed me coast through high school.

Stupid is not the problem. The problem is that there's a lot that humans cannot explain about their world, and a lot they don't understand about what their purpose in the world is, and a lot of meaning that they seek. Sometimes it's the smartest people (but perhaps least educated?) who fall into these traps.

The JW subplots in White Teeth are HILARIOUS.

I've mentioned to my family the fact that "Jehovah" is nowhere near correct pronunciation of YHVH and they didn't seem to think it was important, yet they somehow think it is important enough to call God by his "proper name," even if it is incorrect. Make sense? They reason (with incredibly annoying tone of voice, as if speaking with a child), "Everything has a name, you have a name. Doesn't it make sense to call God by his name? It says in the Bible he wants us to use his name. Would you like it if I always called you, 'man'?" But, it's not the correct name, jackasses! And why do you reason God's wants and needs in human terms when you're constantly pointing out in other arguments that God's wants and needs can't be rationalized in human terms? Oh right, because you're morons. I forgot.

This general ignorance follows them throughout their Bible studies. They almost consider themselves professional Bible scholars, trained by experts. Yet they speak no Hebrew. They have no interest in the nuances and esoteric aspects of the Bible or comparitive religion. To them, it's all there in black and white: "The New English Translation Of The Holy Scriptures Translated From Dead Languages By People We Trust And You Should, Too."

Just got visited by JWs for the first time since we moved here - two women in their forties. They were amazed to encounter a real live agnostic in the wild, "especially around here, especially one who was raised around here." We had a nice talk and they went away.

when I was in college one of my roommates asked some JWs that stopped by our house whether or not Jesus broke Mary's hymen being born (since she was a virgin) and whether or not that was really painful

Where do you live now, WmC?

northeast Mississippi

That certainly gets partway to explaining the "no nonbelievers in the wild" thing

btw they didn't identify their affiliation, but they were showing me copies of "Awake!" magazine

We are on their rotation because we actually answer the door and are civil, so once every two months or so they ring the bell on a Saturday and we have a chat.

I may try identifying myself as a secular gnostic humanist and see where that goes.

have we any about

My aunt is a JW. Could see if she's interested in signing up. Was there a reason you asked?

nothing more than guessing correctly about yerman on the first sketchy details and a bit of idle reading today tbh

Got a call from my mom the other day because there was a hand written letter sent to her house, which I haven't lived at in 13 years. It was from JW. It was really kind of creepy.

Anyways they've started setting up at the train stop and the day after was taking the train and saw they had laid out a bunch of booklets at the bottom of the stairs. I took them all and threw them in the trash.

I work with one and he is an excellent fellow.

I went to a memorial service (really a funeral, but they called it a memorial service) for a neighbor today, first time I've ever set foot in a Jehovah's Witness Hall. Religion Ain't for Me, Part 783: When the minister (?) asked if any of us knew the story of Job, he pronounced it "Jobe" and all I could think of was Tommy John surgery.

Biblical Job is pronounced "jobe".

I didn't know that until I looked it up just before posting (therefore sparing me the embarrassment of saying the minister asked us about the Book of Jobe).