I'm on my way to school.She's going to prom.
He was at the bar last night.I had to go to the gym.
Cross-cultural difference: They're going to hospital (UK/Australia) vs. They're going to the hospital (US/Canada).
---
In the "school"/"prom" example, does dropping the definite article make sense because you're referring to more than just a physical location? That is, school is not just a building, but this thing you do over a period of time; prom, likewise, is more like an event or a phenomenon. (Although what set me off on this whole thread was the revelation that dropping the "the" before "prom" is a distinctly Midwestern thing. Confirm?) Just thought of another example in this category: He's scheduled to arrive at court shortly.
In the "bar"/"gym"/North American "hospital" example, does using the definite article make sense because it usually doesn't matter too much which bar/gym/hospital you're referring to? Like, when we say "the gym," it's standing in for all gyms -- it's a concrete place but almost like a Platonic form thereof. (For the record, I think "bar" is the weakest case heard, but I've heard it used in this way quite often.) I guess in this category of examples, the alternative wouldn't be to drop the article altogether but to replace it with a non-definitive one, like "a."
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 19:49 (eighteen years ago) link
― The Milkmaid (82375538-A) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:05 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:11 (eighteen years ago) link
- I go to church every Sunday.- He's been taken to court twice.
It needn't be the same church or the same courtroom. It seems consistent enough to do this with "hospital," especially in similar constructions ("He's been taken to hospital three times"), but I guess the North American usage is still stuck in the particular version -- "I need to go to the hospital" meaning "I need to go to that particular building on the other side of town." I kind of wonder whether this has to do with spatial stuff (or even health care systems) -- for a lot of Americans in a lot of history, it would make perfect sense to refer to only one available hospital.
The second part is knotty, or maybe I'm not understanding something. "He was at the bar last night" seems to refer to a particular bar that the listener is aware of -- it's the kind of thing you'd say within a social circle with a default understanding of which bar is "the bar," and surely any other uses of it stem from that habit. The gym one, though, I don't so much get -- people definitely do say "the gym," unless they're super fancy and say "my gym" like cockgoblins.
― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:13 (eighteen years ago) link
Well, this is why I say this is the weakest example in this category, because I think what you're saying is right a lot of the time. But I've also definitely asked people, "What'd you do last night?" and heard the response, "Oh, not much, just went to the bar and had a few beers." And I don't know at all which specific bar this is intended to refer to. Maybe a better example: "Where were you?" "Oh, I just got back from the bar." Where "the bar" seems to just stand in for "the act of drinking at a bar."
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:19 (eighteen years ago) link
I think I brought up this difference, and what it might mean, on one of the myriad pub/bar threads.
― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:22 (eighteen years ago) link
Okay but then: "hospital!" This is actually in between -- whether you want to think of hospitals as a collective abstraction (places of healing) or whether you want to think of them as individual businesses. In the latter the implied word might be "local" -- i.e. "take me to the hospital" would be equivalent to "take me to the town hall" or "take me to the corner store." (Stuff where there's an implication of "nearest" or "assigned to your location.") If only Canadians left "the" off "hospital," we'd have a good case to make about collective health care versus our model!
xpost
Aha, I think that use of "the bar" probably runs into the implied-local category I'm trying to figure out here. Similar example = "I have to go to the store." You're right -- it would be more proper to say "I have to go to a store." But that would sound batshit crazy, and I'm guessing the difference has something to do with implied familiarity. "I have to go to the store" implies that it's the nearby store you visit every day for simple things. "I have to go to a store" seems like it will be followed by "in Omaha that sells wombats."
― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:22 (eighteen years ago) link
― gooblar (gooblar), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:34 (eighteen years ago) link
(Also it occurs to me that adults say "your prom," as in "what did you wear to your prom?")
(Also we need British people to explain some of their more dialect-type constructions in this field, like using "down" and no article -- "I'm going down chip shop.")
― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:47 (eighteen years ago) link
but jay in that sitch ppl almost always say "A bar" for precisely that reason.
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:48 (eighteen years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:49 (eighteen years ago) link
― phil d. (Phil D.), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:53 (eighteen years ago) link
Well yes, the two voices I hear that being said in are working class Northern and Londoner.
Similarly, a Northerner might say "I'm going to pub".
I personally might say "I'm going down the chip shop" if I was feeling a bit Lahn-don, but I wouldn't miss out the article.
― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:56 (eighteen years ago) link
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:56 (eighteen years ago) link
Sterling no they don't necessarily! People will say "I just got back from the bar" the way they'd say ... well, if you called and said "what are you doing," I might say "not much, just sitting on the couch."
It's a form of "the" where the definite part of the article is definiteness in the speaker's mind -- definiteness that's too banal to bother specifying. If I say "I'm going to a store," that sort of implies some random or unfamiliar store, and you'll probably ask which store I mean. If I say "I'm going to the store," I'm referring to a particular store, but I'm just not bothering to specify which -- because I'm trusting you to assume that it's just the (the!) corner store or whatever.
It makes total sense, the more I think about it.
― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:58 (eighteen years ago) link
― Abbott (Abbott), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:58 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 20:59 (eighteen years ago) link
I like this.
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Paul Eater (eater), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:12 (eighteen years ago) link
I haven't heard anyone say that. I have heard people shorten the word the to just a t sound, or sometimes when people are speaking lazily the the comes out as just a vowel-like syllable "I'm going down uh chip shop", but I've not heard it missed out completely. Perhaps I just haven't met enough northerners.
― Cathy (Cathy), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:29 (eighteen years ago) link
serendipitous xpost with Cathy and RJG!
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:31 (eighteen years ago) link
― Paul Eater (eater), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:36 (eighteen years ago) link
― Paul Eater (eater), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:37 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:43 (eighteen years ago) link
But actually they do acknowledge that they're dropping articles right and left; they just don't see why I care.
― Paul Eater (eater), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:48 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:50 (eighteen years ago) link
Ha ha. Putting this thought in my head makes me love this formulation. I'm imagining Mr Big Smiley Bus and I'm going ride him tomorrow morning!
― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 22 March 2006 21:56 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 16:40 (eighteen years ago) link
― theantmustdance (theantmustdance), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 16:52 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 16:55 (eighteen years ago) link
― martin m. (mushrush), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:42 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tracey Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:45 (eighteen years ago) link
― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:45 (eighteen years ago) link
― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:50 (eighteen years ago) link
― martin m. (mushrush), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― phil d. (Phil D.), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:55 (eighteen years ago) link
― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:56 (eighteen years ago) link
― phil d. (Phil D.), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 17:58 (eighteen years ago) link
"Japanese officials are investigating claims that two men living injungle in the Philippines are Japanese soldiers left behind afterWorld War II."
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 18:43 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:08 (eighteen years ago) link
― theantmustdance (theantmustdance), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:15 (eighteen years ago) link
'Lost world' found in jungle.
― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:31 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:34 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:40 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:41 (eighteen years ago) link
― theantmustdance (theantmustdance), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:41 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 19:45 (eighteen years ago) link
― RJG (RJG), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 20:01 (eighteen years ago) link
It's like jungle sometimesIt makes me wonderI don't know how I keep from going under
I knew somebody was gonna post that Jordan thing.
― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 20:09 (eighteen years ago) link
― martin m. (mushrush), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 20:24 (eighteen years ago) link
― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 20:32 (eighteen years ago) link
Too much time spent in jungle!
― martin m. (mushrush), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 20:34 (eighteen years ago) link
― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 21:56 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 22:17 (eighteen years ago) link
the mistake here is that they left the "are" in the headline!
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Tuesday, 11 April 2006 22:23 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 22:24 (eighteen years ago) link
"You are smarter than me."
or
"You are smarter than I."
Because generally speaking "I" is a subject and "me" is an object, but then if you add "am" as the final word, the first choice falls apart.
Is it something about the word "than" that makes the next noun a subject instead of an object? I'm a little drunk and not sure what the answer is.
― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 04:20 (eighteen years ago) link
― Dan I. (Dan I.), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 04:50 (eighteen years ago) link
If you add 'am', 'I' is the one doing the aming.
― theantmustdance (theantmustdance), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 06:06 (eighteen years ago) link
― dave $1.83 (dave225.3), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 11:39 (eighteen years ago) link
Technically yes -- there's a good summary of the issue here.
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 12:27 (eighteen years ago) link
Dan Me OTM.
― StanM (StanM), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 12:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― In The Court Of The Redd King Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 12:41 (eighteen years ago) link
When you are a mediocre editor (as I undoubtedly am), grammar fantodry is unavoidable.
Thanks for the insight, y'all.
― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 12 April 2006 15:58 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 10 August 2006 14:42 (seventeen years ago) link
Lol at this thread
― How I Wrote Matchstick Men (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 7 July 2015 05:29 (eight years ago) link