I still like it a lot, minus all that trumpet silliness.
― Tom Millar (Millar), Sunday, 15 December 2002 16:47 (twenty-one years ago) link
― bob snoom, Sunday, 15 December 2002 20:18 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Sean (Sean), Sunday, 15 December 2002 21:34 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 16 December 2002 00:20 (twenty-one years ago) link
I'm a huge Bowie fan, but the albums I'd put on the "don't bother" list would be hours and Never Let Me Down -- followed by Black Tie White Noise (except "Jump They Say" is one of my favorite last-twenty-years Bowie songs) and, actually, Let's Dance.
And continuing to be off-topic, I love Bowie's cover of "Cactus"! Even as a Pixies fan who hates most Pixies covers.
― Tep (ktepi), Monday, 16 December 2002 00:28 (twenty-one years ago) link
Is HEATHAN any good?
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 16 December 2002 00:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tom Millar (Millar), Monday, 16 December 2002 00:50 (twenty-one years ago) link
"The Pretty Things are Going to Hell" and "Thursday's Child" are decent songs, though.
― Tep (ktepi), Monday, 16 December 2002 00:55 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 16 December 2002 01:17 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 16 December 2002 02:55 (twenty-one years ago) link
Some of the voices for the segues are great, and even if the story is confusing and weird, the tone it sets adds a lot to the album. The main reason I like it so much is that dark futuristic tone and the Eno/Bowie production. There is really no other albums that capture that as well.
(as for Black Tie White Noise, I would say that is his most underrated. Lester Bowie's trumpet silliness, and Al B Sure! combined with Bowie's jazz fusion attempt works so well. Bowie has some great sax solos too. Good songs: Wedding song, Looking for Lester, Miracle Goodnight, Nite Flights)
― A Nairn (moretap), Monday, 16 December 2002 03:45 (twenty-one years ago) link
From what I have come to understand, Eno wanted the record to be a lot sparser. A record can come out a million different ways when you have somebody doing the post-production and the mix-down. I think Bowie pulled a real Raw Power on Outside.
The greatest shame of all is that there are some really great songs and interesting musical ideas hidden beneath all that excessive studio bloat. Strangers When We Meet is one of Bowie best songs to date, but it got lost as the final track on the album. If the production and arrangements had been pared down it could have been a brilliant album. If only Eno had not been cut out at the last minute.
― Mike Taylor (mjt), Monday, 16 December 2002 08:39 (twenty-one years ago) link
That nails it for me right there. The story is incomplete, but this isn't Tommy. The tone is great. Even when I wouldn't name this as the best Bowie album, I'd call it the one that works best as an album, as opposed to a collection of songs -- for that, it's probably the best album in my collection (we had that thread, didn't we?)
― Tep (ktepi), Monday, 16 December 2002 18:42 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Sean (Sean), Tuesday, 17 December 2002 00:54 (twenty-one years ago) link
as an "album" it pisses me off. so much of the experimental parts of the record or the segments betweek tracks are a waste of time and ruin the flow of the album.
i came to reassess it after lost highway and everyone took a liking to 'deranged'. the song in its original form is most excellent, dark and brooding in a pleasant lounge-y sort of way.
there are a bunch of tracks from this album that are excellent, but a low signal/noise ratio all together i would say. HOWEVER this album has been borrowed by several of my friends before and they invariably claim it to be an excellent album! i cannot understand the appeal of this album but obviously it is an interesting side note to bowies career and a point when we saw the very beginnings of what might be termed somewhat of a 'comeback'
― Laney, Tuesday, 17 December 2002 18:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
I'm still struck by how much people still crap all over this record, even as it is far and away (melodically, at least) "the best thing he's done since Scary Monsters" (or, at a minimum, since this record). I remember DeRo called it embarrassing, no one could understand the story, and everyone thought he was chasing Trent Reznor or something. Which he might have.
Without having listened to it in ages (I lost it), I've always heard a very different record, I guess. You have:
A) Several really good tunes. "Heart's Filthy Lesson", "I Have Not Been To Oxford Town", "Small Plot", and two of his best songs, period, "Thru' These Architect's Eyes" and "I'm Deranged."
B) Some great production touches. "HFL" has great Eno-fication. "Small Plot", an incredible creeping arrangment. Joey Baron described the sessions for this tune to me once — said it was fascinating as Bowie just improvised the whole thing off these sheets he'd put together, shrieking through his headphones.
C) And it wins Bowie the 1995 award for "Best Deployment of a Sideman" with Mike Garson delivering an absolutely INSANE piano performance for the duration (he'd won before in 1976 for Roy Bittan).
D) The story, which I've always found to be intentionally tongue in cheek, all the way down to the cheesy Photoshopped artwork. Shame he seems to have bailed on the 2. Contamination sequel...
At any rate, poss. the last decent thing we'll get out of him...
― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 18:23 (nineteen years ago) link
― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 18:25 (nineteen years ago) link
eno sounds very excited about the recording of this album in A Year with Swollen Appendices
― kyle (akmonday), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 18:27 (nineteen years ago) link
― splooge (thesplooge), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 18:28 (nineteen years ago) link
― kyle (akmonday), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 18:29 (nineteen years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 18:42 (nineteen years ago) link
― dickvandyke (dickvandyke), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 18:47 (nineteen years ago) link
― kyle (akmonday), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 18:49 (nineteen years ago) link
― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 18:59 (nineteen years ago) link
― Atnevon (Atnevon), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 21:31 (nineteen years ago) link
It was not so much that Eno was kicked out during the mixing process so much as Bowie kind of took things over towards the end and cluttered things up. There are several good passages in A Year With... discussing there different styles in the studio, the painter vs. sculptor metaphor comes to mind at the moment. I am not going to stake my life on it, but I am not sure that Eno was still in Switzerland when the album was completed. I am in the process of rereading A Year With, and I have not gotten to the part where they mix the album.
― Disco Nihilist (mjt), Wednesday, 18 August 2004 03:20 (nineteen years ago) link
― Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Wednesday, 18 August 2004 06:37 (nineteen years ago) link
― ian g, Wednesday, 18 August 2004 19:09 (nineteen years ago) link
Yes, this was when he'd latched onto Trent (before latching onto Moby as his new sychophantic protoge).
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 18 August 2004 19:22 (nineteen years ago) link
I dunno. Lyrics aside, "The Heart's Filthy Lesson" is straight-up Reznor. "I'm Deranged" and "We Prick You" too.
― Atnevon (Atnevon), Thursday, 19 August 2004 03:01 (nineteen years ago) link
― the bellefox, Thursday, 19 August 2004 15:47 (nineteen years ago) link
― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Friday, 15 July 2005 16:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― Brett Hickman (Bhickman), Friday, 15 July 2005 17:44 (eighteen years ago) link
Outside is one of those Bowie albums I loved upon release but now think it's overbaked. "No Control" and "I'm Deranged" are marvelous, and "Strangers When We Meet" is one of his best ballads ever, not to mention his use of Colin Newman-esque non sequiturs in a moving way. The rest I can live without.
― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Friday, 15 July 2005 18:36 (eighteen years ago) link
i feel that is one of the most overlooked songs in the entire bowie catalog.
― ZionTrain (ZionTrain), Friday, 15 July 2005 18:59 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Friday, 15 July 2005 19:06 (eighteen years ago) link
If I'm remembering correctly, the interludes on Outside album were recorded with the band using Eno's 'strategies for musicians' cards. I'm interested, too, in what all the band did in the full sessions for these.
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 15 July 2005 19:09 (eighteen years ago) link
it's unfortunate but OUTSIDE's attempts (conscious or not) to revisit the magic of the berlin trilogy came up unfounded.
― ZionTrain (ZionTrain), Friday, 15 July 2005 22:25 (eighteen years ago) link
If I remember right, the video for "Heart's Filthy Lesson" really underlined the connection to NIN, it was all creepy gothy and shot to look like it was on washed out old film stock and such.
Heathen is one of my favorite Bowie albums (Alex, did you hear it?), but I did not like Hours much and found Earthling kinda meh.
― daria g (daria g), Saturday, 16 July 2005 03:57 (eighteen years ago) link
― Jay Vee (Manon_70), Saturday, 16 July 2005 23:33 (eighteen years ago) link
― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Sunday, 17 July 2005 14:59 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 17 July 2005 15:14 (eighteen years ago) link
The more I listen to this, the more I think that had he junked the concept, this would easily would be regarded as one of his best records -- even with the concept, it still is, but I think some/most people can't get past, like, 10 minutes of narrations to recognize that. And pity, b/c then he goes off into Earthling, which is everything people accused this record of. But as its film soundtrackification proves, a ton of these songs on their own stand very tall indeed. Such is the price of pretension...
― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Sunday, 17 July 2005 15:28 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 17 July 2005 15:33 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 17 July 2005 16:05 (eighteen years ago) link
Exactly.
― Ian in Brooklyn, Sunday, 17 July 2005 17:29 (eighteen years ago) link
― Telephonething (Telephonething), Sunday, 17 July 2005 18:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Sunday, 17 July 2005 20:53 (eighteen years ago) link
"Listened to D.B. disk...The only thing missing: space -- the nerve to be very simple."
If memory serves, that was almost word for word Eno's critique of Lodger -- seems like they work against each other that way. Where Eno taking over means he ferrets out the unnecessary elements, it seems Bowie's instinct is to clutter things. Same thing happened with the Berlin Trilogy, where he started off a Nazi-saluting mess and gradually got his act together.
Still, he clutters interestingly.
― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Monday, 18 July 2005 03:39 (eighteen years ago) link
Last.fm is urgently recommending someone named "David Bowie" to me, so I need to root around in the archives for something to balance my play count. I haven't listened to Outside... well, since it came out. I thought I'd ask what others have asked before -- did any more of the Outside/Eno sessions leak out?
― Mitya (mitya), Friday, 23 December 2005 02:46 (eighteen years ago) link
Heat from The Next Day is pretty significantly Bowie in Scott Walker Mode innit?
― umsworth (emsworth), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 20:47 (four years ago) link
So much so that Walker might have cocked a wry eyebrow.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 20:52 (four years ago) link
"A Small Plot Of Land" and "The Motel" are amazing, ya
― flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 20:54 (four years ago) link
The first time I heard Outside it was on a cross country car trip with a bunch of jazz players I was going to college with at the time. Chemicals may have been in play. Possibly the best way to hear this record – and likely responsible for why I have such an abiding affection for it.
― Naive Teen Idol, Monday, 6 July 2020 04:51 (three years ago) link
What did the jazzbo's think of it?
I only came to this after Bowie died. First listen was intriguing, second listen more so and then on the third it all clicked, even the interstitial bits.
I was really hard on his 90s work, it felt like he had gone from leading the musical changes to following them, especially on "Heathen". But now I realize he was consuming them and putting his own spin on grunge, drum & bass, etc. "Outside" is his best of that period, hands down. Except "I'm Afraid Of Americans", which is so goddamn good and feels like it fits better with "Outside".
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Monday, 6 July 2020 13:37 (three years ago) link
it's an eno cowrite so there is that, but I like it on Earthling.
I haven't listened to the original version (with eno actually on it) from Showgirls in a long time; how does it compare?
― akm, Monday, 6 July 2020 13:52 (three years ago) link
Is the Showgirls version different than the LP version? I can't choose between the LP version and Trent's remix, they're both fantastic in different ways.
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Monday, 6 July 2020 15:56 (three years ago) link
yes, it's an earlier version than the LP version recorded during the Outside sessions or around then, I think (hence Eno being on it and not on the Earthling one)
― akm, Monday, 6 July 2020 16:56 (three years ago) link
Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrtH3vcTwVg
just started giving it a relisten, def. more clattery.
Very pleasantly surprised by the Ouvre Le Chien live album that came out a few days ago - looked like yet another fired-out Bowie release but it presents most of the best Outside stuff in a great light, when I was not expecting too much at all. The performances surpass the album versions for me. The album itself will always be overlong for me and peppered with a lot of daft stuff (i.e. the segues, although I am sort of glad they exist), but I'm more assured that definitely was onto something good back then, even if a bit of editing wouldn't have hurt.
― PaulTMA, Monday, 6 July 2020 17:09 (three years ago) link
so that sounds pretty cool but am i correct that Ouvrez le Chien can only be streamed on Spotify, Amazon Music etc and no one sells it as a digital download? Is this how things work now?
― gnarled and turbid sinuses (Jon not Jon), Monday, 6 July 2020 19:59 (three years ago) link
The jazzbos loved it -- between Mike Garson's skyscraping piano lines, Joey Baron doing Joey Baron things on drums, and Bowie's supremely confident, operatic vocals, as well as snippets of the improvised Leon material, they had a lot to chew on.
― Naive Teen Idol, Monday, 6 July 2020 20:30 (three years ago) link
POOOOOOOOOOOORdunce
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Wednesday, 13 July 2022 14:52 (one year ago) link
POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR
dunce
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, June 12, 2017 6:55 AM (five years ago) bookmarkflaglink
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Wednesday, 13 July 2022 14:54 (one year ago) link
That's a good'un!
Gonna spin the Ouvrez le Chien show today on Spotify, haven't heard it before and apparently a physical copy costs stupid money.
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Wednesday, 13 July 2022 15:13 (one year ago) link
A Small Plot of Land is maybe my favourite Bowie song between (makes up some rough numbers) 1977 and 2016
But picking a song without melody feel wrong somehow so Jump They Say as well
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Wednesday, 13 July 2022 15:22 (one year ago) link
I remember hearing "Hallo Spaceboy", the album version, in the local HMV and buying the album on the spot - as many other people have pointed out it's far too long, and I'm not keen on the "Peak ProTools" production. It's really fussy! I remember publicity videos where he was showing off his new Macintosh Quadra (or whatever). He used it to write the lyrics, by chopping up bits of text and then throwing it all away and writing lyrics normally. It also sounds as if Eno and Bowie had just bought ProTools and a bank of samplers.
On the other hand the editing of e.g. "Heart's Filthy Lesson" makes sense, and the video is great as well. I've never heard The Buddha of Suburbia and I wonder if it's at all like Outside. As with Tin Machine it sounded like a man who had read a description of Nine Inch Nails and Front 242 and was trying to recreate that sound without hearing the originals, so it's obviously still X-as-processed-by-Bowie, but in my opinion the end result is a much better synthesis than Tin Machine. "We Prick You" is really perfunctory thought and I remember it has slap bass on it, so there's still this awkward link with 1980s naffness.
It strikes me as the kind of thing that probably had a promotional CDROM or early website with tiny tiny little video thumbnails. I'm slightly surprised to find out it was released on LP. A single LP as well. I always thought it was too long, and it came out at a point when LPs were dead and gone. But it was indeed released on LP, with an LP-sized booklet.
― Ashley Pomeroy, Wednesday, 13 July 2022 20:41 (one year ago) link
Out of interest, what is 'Peak ProTools' production?
― MaresNest, Wednesday, 13 July 2022 20:42 (one year ago) link
This is a mammoth read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outside_(David_Bowie_album)
― you can see me from westbury white horse, Wednesday, 13 July 2022 20:49 (one year ago) link
Wow, Ouvrez Le Chien is amazing ❤️
Feeling very secure in my “Gabrels is the best” stanning rn. He and Garson are duelling beasts
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 13 July 2022 21:39 (one year ago) link
What is his accent here? Moonage Daydream: “I’m the spice inviter”. It’s absolutely affected and kinda delicious
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 13 July 2022 21:42 (one year ago) link
I just A/B’d the Outside remaster (2003 vs 2021) and I usually like the most recent masters of albums! Not in this case. “A Small Plot Of Land” is all voice and no bass, no ambience
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 13 July 2022 21:52 (one year ago) link
The only bad thing I have to say about Outside is that it’s a shame this perfect album is interrupted by “Hallo Spaceboy” but the ffwd button is right there, so, 10/10
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 13 July 2022 22:06 (one year ago) link
Whaaat? I love "Hallo Spaceboy" and the PSB remix
Can't believe how long it took me to discover Outside. I had enjoyed some of his more well-known albums for years but... I mean, it's a big catalog to listen to everything. now the album is possibly my favorite of his
― Vinnie, Thursday, 14 July 2022 06:09 (one year ago) link
I've never heard The Buddha of Suburbia and I wonder if it's at all like Outside.
Not at all. Bowie and Erdil Kizilkay playing and writing cool noodles and instrumentals.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 14 July 2022 10:11 (one year ago) link
― flamenco drop (BradNelson),
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 14 July 2022 11:31 (one year ago) link
I'm pretty sure this album was not recorded with protools. protools had been out for a few years but wasn't Kid A the first bit album to be totally recorded in protools some years later?
― akm, Thursday, 14 July 2022 14:52 (one year ago) link
big album, not bit.
ProTools was in its infancy in 1994, 16 inputs perhaps.
The internet says Outside was recorded on two 48-track machines, but I'm not sure that's correct either, perhaps it was Mitsubishi 32-track digital recorders.
― MaresNest, Thursday, 14 July 2022 15:01 (one year ago) link
i'd be surprised if there wasn't some digital recording involved
― akm, Thursday, 14 July 2022 15:53 (one year ago) link
Digital editing of mixes and takes, certainly
― MaresNest, Thursday, 14 July 2022 15:57 (one year ago) link
btw saw an announcement that the albums from this last box set (including Outside) are finally being released on vinyl independently from the box, next month I think
― akm, Thursday, 14 July 2022 15:58 (one year ago) link
If I'm not mistaken, the Beach Boys album "Summer In Paradise" (1992) has this distinction.
"Digital recording" includes ADATs and DA-88s and what have you so certainly some of it was involved. Could also involve RADAR, which is arguably classifiable as a DAW (albeit with no independent computer).
Logic and ProTools were used in conjunction with linear recording tech (i.e. reel-to-reel and its descendants) for editing and sampling and MIDI and sync and processing and what have you. I absolutely think Eno was using Logic on Outside, but in conjunction with other recording tech, Logic likely being used for sampling and/or controlling samplers and so on
― flamboyant goon tie included, Thursday, 14 July 2022 16:33 (one year ago) link
still never heard this one
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, 14 July 2022 17:11 (one year ago) link
Love Outside. For some reason, it was the most-loved Bowie album among my friends in high school (early 2000's) - I think that came from the Nine Inch Nails connections.
― jmm, Thursday, 14 July 2022 17:27 (one year ago) link
"Out of interest, what is 'Peak ProTools' production?"
I think of a certain kind of big-budget, fussily-produced album from the 1990s, when studios gravitated to ProTools - which was very expensive, and initially required specialised hardware, so the smaller acts didn't have a chance to really exploit it. It allowed producers to edit audio down to the individual sample level and move chunks of audio around. That could be done with samplers and sequencers, but it was a lot easier to go completely wild with ProTools because it was drag-and-drop. There's a certain type of album from that period where the production is objectively excellent, with every individual note and sound sample lovingly crafted, but it's too fussy for my taste. Once the novelty wore off producers toned things down.
Avid has an interesting list here, which makes me realise that Outside (and Zooropa, Amused to Death, Tubular Bells 2, The Division Bell etc) were probably pre-ProTools:http://www.avidblogs.com/7-seminal-records-made-with-pro-tools/
But apparently its ancestor, Sound Tools, was released in 1989, and my hunch is that Brian Eno was the kind of man who would buy things on day one of release - he probably spent a lot of time on the phone to DigiDesign's customer service department - so dating things is hard. Sound Tools worked on the late Motorola 68K Macintoshes.
The first example they give is Garbage's debut album, from 1995. The silent chop-out in "Supervixen" could have been done by any number of methods, but with ProTools all Butch Vig had to do was highlight that chunk of sample -> insert silence -> maybe fade out/fade in the edges and voila. And from that point onwards it would have been a simple matter to cut out all extraneous ambient sounds, make reverb tails stop dead, apply reverb to individual guitar notes, and do it at lighting speed, without having to ride a mixing desk or edit tape. Avid's article links to this interview from 1999 with a chap who engineered Bjork's Homogenic:https://www.soundonsound.com/people/spike-stent
"What I also enjoyed with that Björk album was that there were no definite arrangements on most of the songs. I'm talking about the way the beats came in and out, where certain hooks were, and so on. A lot of that was created during the mix. They brought the material in on analogue tape and DA98, and a few things that were run live. We moved many things around in Pro Tools. I would start at 10 in the morning, and by four in the afternoon Björk would come in and give me feedback. I had a lot of freedom. I did drop-ins and cuts and rearranged things, and could go wild with my effects. Just like with the Massive Attack albums, Protection (1994) and Mezzanine (1998) — I got to use many guitar effects pedals. I used them on the breaks, vocals, keyboards, all sorts of things. Björk and her producer Mark Bell had already manipulated the sounds a lot, and then I manipulated them again."
It's also fascinating for the casual mention of Auto-Tune in its original context as a way of correcting bum notes, because "Believe" was only a year old at that point.
I'm digressing wildly but essentially my thesis is that Outside sounds over-engineered, as if Bowie had just realised he could edit literally everything in close to real time.
― Ashley Pomeroy, Thursday, 14 July 2022 20:49 (one year ago) link
Eno wanted the record to be a lot sparser.
"Sparse" is not a word I typically associate with Brian Eno.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Thursday, 14 July 2022 21:03 (one year ago) link
He's notorious for erasing contentious individual tracks to circumvent mix-related arguments.
― Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 14 July 2022 21:05 (one year ago) link
XXP - I thought that's what you were leaning toward.
While I agree that digital audio production enables those tempted to go all in with overdubs and on-grid tendencies, I can't get behind the idea of ProTools as the sole pejorative culprit.
I do see PT used as a worrisome adverb from time to time, and while it shouldn't, it kinda bugs me, perhaps because I sit in front of it every day.
The irony is, of all the DAWs and standalone digital recording systems I've used over the years (since around the same time Outside was being recorded, funnily enough) it is easily one of the most 'tape-like' of all.
People like Steve Lipson and Trevor Horn were achieving the same over-the-top results 10 years previously with Fariights and Synclaviers, it just took much longer and required a more mathematical mindset.
― MaresNest, Thursday, 14 July 2022 21:08 (one year ago) link