birth of the flattened cool: the origins of the indie voice?

I think a lot of the personas have to do with the self-consciousness that comes with being a teenager/young adult and specifically in post-1950s America. Institutions like the family and the church and business were no longer places where collegiate intellectuals were going or wanted to go and so new personas were naturally going to be made by these kids.

Reed seems like more of a descendent of the Beats and their culture but Simon is interesting as he was one of the first people from that generation's pop music to popularize the now common way of hiding your genuine feelings (MASSIVE irony and sarcasm). But when Simon didn't use irony to hide any feelings he would be almost proto-emo ('I Am A Rock' for goodness sake).

Indie "heroes" like Dean Wareham are always tagged as Reed-followers but I think we see just as much of Simon's legacy in their work as we do a VU influence.

I mean, obviously he could belt it when he wanted to, and maybe for people who know him only by the somewhat grandiose "New York, New York", it might seem strange to think of him as understated, but that was, I think, the essence of his genius: that tough street-smart Hoboken wise-guy voice, always holding something back, the master of the off-the-cuff gesture, cosmopolitan and urbane - he could make any wide-eyed and innocent '50s love-song sound complex, grown-up and sexual - always in control, ironic, self-aware - in a word, cool.

"got hips like cinderella...

...

must be having a good shame

...

talking sweet about nothing

...

cookie, i think you're

...

TAME!!!"

Could I see that in German theater? Why not?

i'm glad there's already a thread about this. i just tried listening to a new 'indie'-pop thing with vocals for the first time in maybe a year? it was the new 'chromatics.' the music sounded nice but gah something about that voice just ruins everything for me. 'indie'-pop acts need to um ditch the self-learning thing and start focusing as much on singing as they do on production and synths or whatever. blech

like if you're gonna copy chilly, get the most important thing right

"as they do on production and synths"

production = flat dry digital recording into Protools
synths = softsynths they don't know how to use

haw

wait was that an insult to indie pop or chart pop? (really, I don't know)

indie pop

i had the same reaction to some of the after dark songs but i also get the indie thing. and i really like the album. i like indie cool when it's done well (i think the chromatics singer does it ok, not great). james murphy is very indie cool, but i like his vocals.

The thread seems to have been mainly about tracing back the elements of the indie-drawl. But its the combination that codifies the sound.

I'd suggest that its fair to call the originators of individual elements a 'precursor' but they aren't the origin of indie sound. Its when people start to mix the styles of Drake, Reed, Gilberto, Cohen, etc etc that you actually get the indie sound.

For instance Pavement may or may not have vocal styles which have a linage from 1950s beats, but that linage comes via Mark E Smith who is one of the originators as opposed to a precursor. I'd add in Edwin Collins, Paul Haig and maybe Howard Devoto/Pete Shelly as originator of a specific combinations.

Not so sure whether Patti Smith counts as the earliest originator, or a precursor, I'd probably put her just on the precursor side in my imaginary dividing line with the UK Smith-offspring - Slits, Raincoats, Au Pairs, Delta 5, Penetration on the other side as first origins.

Actually shocked Edwin Collins didn't get a mention in this thread already. He's the direct line via Stephen P to Stuart Murdoch.

... the "indie voice" (wish I could think of a better term for it) is very much in the world, but is somewhat removed from the songs themselves. Like, commenting on the distance between the (often) romantic nature of the songs and the unromantic realities of the world? -- spittle (spittle), Sunday, 18 April 2004 16:57 (3 years ago) Link

This is quite beautiful! And I think a big part of Malkmus style, it's not just plain ironic. Great thread.

Malkmus's vocal style isn't really indebted to Mark E. Smith at all. For one, he sings. Musically, of course Pavement took a lot from the Fall but we've had this discussion a hundred million times.

I don't really know very many artists who have a vocal style that resembles Mark E Smith. James Murphy vaguely, maybe.

The influence fell away, but Malkmus did do some E. Smith aping on early songs, especially "Two States", and referred to Slanted & Enchanted as sounding like the work of a Fall cover band.

For one, he sings

As does MES sometimes. Occasionally there is even a tune too.

Sure, there is plenty of examples where Malkmus is his own man, and isn't ever (well, hardly ever) a mere Fall tribute act, but to suggest there is no connection or indebtedness doesn't match what I can hear, or indeed what Ive read in interviews.

I still stand by hearing it only in the music and probably only three or four times in the singing, in their entire career.

I find it incredible how Ray Davies has yet to be mentioned here.

Yeah but you find a lot of the world incredible, don't you

Way too much. This thread lacks credibility. :)

chad & jeremy?
townes van zandt, when he wasn't self-consciously singing in a 'country' style.

i think i am just thinking chad & jeremy because they always remind me of B&S, but i don't think it's the voice that does it ...

Why All Indie Singers Sound Weirdly The Same

I think the sound of indie-rock as we know it today was created by the Red Krayola on their 2nd album. Listen to The Jewels of the Madonna. If that isn't an scarrily accurate precurser to what indie-rock would sound like in the 80s/90s I don't know what is.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), zondag 18 april 2004 17:49 (twelve years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Holy shit.

makes you wonder if they had similar sensibilites to the indie scene or if they just stumbled upon a sound that wld become influential 15 years later

I think Dan beat me to it but...

Red Krayola: 2nd album (I think I said somewhere else that this is the album that invented indie rock! In other words, you probably wouldn't want to listen to it too often)

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 April 2005 09:10 (eleven years ago) Permalink

"Children of Danger" by the Memphis Goons was recorded around 70, that always seemed v proto indie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXnoWb88Jr4

What is an example of a singer who is being spoofed in sleeve's video? I think I have an idea of what she is talking about but I think it is probably different from the singers the OP was thinking of.

This is the first thing I thought of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyASdjZE0R0

Well, yeah, if anything, it sounded more like she was talking about pop singers. Rozes totally sounds like that, though, I agree.

FWIW around 2000/2001 when I was first really becoming aware of "indie", some of the indie heads I knew were really into Red Krayola. Probably by then it had already been cited by some Wire-type mag as proto-indie though.

I find it incredible how Ray Davies has yet to be mentioned here.

― Geir Hongro, Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:50 PM (eight years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

imo he's too dynamic and Kinks songs move around melodically a whole lot. same with Syd Barrett as mentioned way above.

instinctually i want to trace cool indie voice to Lou Reed but he seems to have too much fun w his singing. it needs to be performative and bored. the vocal in "Sunday Morning" is kind of relaxed but a bit too dreamy. "Who Loves the Sun" could be a source, certainly lyrics-wise, but again it sounds too fun.

the early takes of "Strawberry Fields Forever" kind of fit. the vocal melody is pretty relaxed and obviously bored. it's just kind of one-note murmuring for a bit ("No one i think is in my tree") and then becomes self-conscious about that for the rest of it and starts gliding around sort of at random ("I mean i think I know..."). maybe? then there's "Revolution 1" on the White Album where the vocals were recording while lying on the floor for that bored/relaxed effect to counter the lyrics.

the root of indie cool voice is imo in that era of psychedelic pop, variety shows where the hosts put on sunglasses and "acted cool" introducing the Strawberry Alarm Clock or whoever. maybe the most high-profile form is in Monkees songs, that bored inflection used to the sing the verses of the theme song, the indie cool hinted at in that affected sigh after "We've got something to say ..... aww"

this seems like it should be a big influence on later folks, but i don't think anyone heard it until the 2006 archival release:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYB26-cqMMo

wait, not manfred mann, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syVOWmLWFys&t=434s

ugh i don't know if that is showing up. the sibylle baier record. recorded in the early 70's.

ALSO, since i notice that dan brought up red krayola above, i was playing corky's debt to his father recently and man oh man its hard to believe that came out in 1970. could have been yesterday.

"Who Loves the Sun" could be a source, certainly lyrics-wise, but again it sounds too fun.

Also it's sung by Doug Yule.