worst protest song/political song to place in the Pazz & Jop singles poll

its the kind of condescending back-patting politics that puts me off from generalist critics trying to engage w/ rap music. 'why cant more rap be like legendary ko'

I'm at work and posting on the run, but now I'm a generalist critic trying to engage with rap music? I don't know why some of you guys always feel the need to start reading into why people like what they like.

not being able to spell Kanye was a tipoff

i thought it was understood that politics was the reason we liked this, then

xpost to deej. The idea of "quality" distinct from other considerations reminded of recent debates in the UK about the dominance of the affluent middle classes in rock and comedy - one response you always get if you raise this is "It doesn't matter as long as it's good," which ignores the fact that there are different kinds of good and that if an artform becomes too socially homogenous then you miss out on some of them. It's a related point - ie, sociopolitical factors do enter into how music is made and heard - but not the same as the specific Legendary KO point. Though for someone who often complains about having your arguments misread until they're ass-backwards, you're not allergic to it yourself.

You're always complaining about generalist critics. Well guess what? Hip hop isn't some arcane specialism, it's part of the general cultural conversation, and political hip hop has been given special treatment by critics since The Message so get over it. I also think it's weird to single out Legendary KO - a record that was specific, timely and recorded by people who were seeing Katrina refugees every day in shelters in Houston - as "condescending and backpatting". It's not Arrested fucking Development.

The only trend I do not like in rap right now is the message rap. I consider the message rap the equivalent of what strings were to rock 'n' roll in the late '50s - a capitulation to the adult norm who can't accept the music on its own terms. The people who considered "Sixty Minute Man" by Billy Ward and the Dominoes, "Annie Had a Baby" - as the pinnacles of '50s R&B now are super uptight over the - in quotes - hotel/motel lyrics of rap. Rap is definitely as true to the essence of rock 'n roll as anything that's out there today.

* Aaron Fuchs quoted by David Toop (1991). Rap Attack 2, p.120. New York: Serpent's Tail. ISBN 1852422432.

this is music that congratulates your existing political biases while engaging no novel aesthetic ones. and im not trying to erect some kind of gatekeeper bunker mentality around rap music, but encourage people who think legendary ko is great to engage w/ us about rap music more often & try to understand the critical framework we're using on the genre if theyre going to engage in rap crit (even if they plan on rejecting that framework ultimately)

I mean, i def agree 100% percent with deej that the long rock critic tradition of pandering to message-rap is NAGL of the highest order; but rap dudes has a tradition of completely dismissing the stuff which is also NAGL.

Like seriously I know it got the accolades that Stunts Blunts And Hip Hop prolly deserved, but the first Arrested Development album is dope and fuiud

Some dud: I misspell lots of words. Don't read too much into my typos and misspellings.

i know, couldn't resist the easy joke, sorry bro

xpost. Try making fewer condescending assumptions about what people listen to and know about. I don't know who you're referring to but I don't need any lessons in hip hop comprehension, thanks. I like that Toop quote a lot but for me it's not either/or - I like political lyrics and I like meaningless ones and I like bits of everything in between.

And again, I don't think you can say a record released less than a week after a major news event pandering to existing biases - it was a gut reaction. Would it have been more "novel" of them to write a song in praise of FEMA?

Also, I think the context of a topical message rap in 2005 is very different from the period Toop was referring to - there was a lot of weak, worthy stuff following Public Enemy but in 2005 there wasn't really a bandwagon to jump so Legendary KO did have the force of novelty.

its not a 'condescending assumption' i just never see you talking in any ilx rap threads so

based on evidence at hand

Do you know why? Because it's mainly you and Whiney bitching at each other and you playing hip hop gatekeeper.

BTW, I really don't want to quarrel with you - it is not a fun thing to do - but you make it very hard not to.

that really not what 99% of the rolling rap thread is
& im perfectly fine w/ arguing w/ people about music, sort of the point of ilx & part of why i like it. dont take it personally.

the stuff about me being a gatekeeper is imo way overblown. its a defensive maneuver not a policing one -- rap fans are used to having their genre be defined from outside & judged on aesthetic terms that miss the point. i mean u can look at how rap classics have fared on critics polls thru-out the years & see that -- im fine w/ arrested development these days, but where is diamond on the pazz n jop list exactly? im not arguing that stuff should be excluded nearly as often as im arguing that certain artists are being slept on despite their notable aesthetic contributions to the form

There's a difference between discussing a record and being driven to distraction by someone making false assumptions about your tastes and motives, and misreading every point.

I'm all for representing underrated records - it doesn't mean the more praised ones are shit. And doesn't every genre have that problem?

srsly, talk to the metal dudes sometime about being marginalized by rock critics

i think reading my generalizations about the songs appeal to 'critics' as being specifically about you is not something i should have to argue with. you can like whatever you like. what we're debating is the public sphere. if you think it stands up on its own then fine, it was your personal yearbook entry. i just cant conceive of how your reasoning justifies the intensity & broad spread of praise from the # of critics it did & will continue to feel justified in saying its overrated

srsly, talk to the metal dudes sometime about being marginalized by rock critics

― when the president talks to based god (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, January 25, 2011 10:32 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

the metal / rap equivalency is bullshit -- one of those genres is much more popular than the others & much more open to a broader spectrum of people

(may have been less bullshit in the 80s but now??)

I literally have no idea which one you think is more popular

try the one w/ hundreds of top 40 hits in the past decade

Or conversely look at the Billboard album charts?

I mean lets get real. Black Eyed Peas vs Metallica, can you really say one of these bands is "much more popular" than the other?

r we really gonna call BEP rap?

where is diamond on the pazz n jop list exactly?

i do hope deej is referring to diamond out of crime mob here. <3 her.

also talk to r&b fans about being marginalised from the crit world mmkay

the metal / rap equivalency is bullshit -- one of those genres is much more popular than the others & much more open to a broader spectrum of people

then why are you being so defensive about it? in one hand ur like "rap is so misunderstood!" (which I agree with) but then ur also like "rap will never be metal! metal deserves its marginalized status! rap is way more popular & only cloistered Satanists give a shit about metal!*" why does it have to be like that?

*(obv puttin words in ur mouth, but u get my point...?)

Just taken a cursory look and there are FIVE rap singles that came above the Legendary KO in that P&J poll, honestly this level of handwringing is just unbelievably dull.

wtf do R&B and metal even have to do w/ the point of this argument
talk about a red herring
its not like theres a world of critics out there writing about the metal that was actually-popular for the past decade -- its all the same generalists who vote for legendary ko. they are not comparable genres

then why are you being so defensive about it? in one hand ur like "rap is so misunderstood!" (which I agree with) but then ur also like "rap will never be metal! metal deserves its marginalized status! rap is way more popular & only cloistered Satanists give a shit about metal!*" why does it have to be like that?

*(obv puttin words in ur mouth, but u get my point...?)

― some hills are never seen (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, January 25, 2011 10:44 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

we're talking about critics marginalizing it, not record buyers

Just taken a cursory look and there are FIVE rap singles that came above the Legendary KO in that P&J poll, honestly this level of handwringing is just unbelievably dull.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, January 25, 2011 10:45 AM (57 seconds ago) Bookmark

i know u mean this to sound damning of my argument but lol @ the idea that this is even near the 5th best rap song of that year

It's not, but it does undermine your point that mainstream rap was being critically marginalized at the time.

xpost. OK, you think it's overrated, I've given several reasons why I think it's not, and there we are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yo0B3kn1YI

That Legendary KO song was popular with critics - KAISER CHIEFS popular

wtf do R&B and metal even have to do w/ the point of this argument
talk about a red herring
its not like theres a world of critics out there writing about the metal that was actually-popular for the past decade -- its all the same generalists who vote for legendary ko. they are not comparable genres

Suggest Ban Permalink
― challopian youtubes (deej), Tuesday, January 25, 2011 11:45 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

you were pulling this shit in one of the other p&j threads...there's absolutely no reason to shit on metal on this board...

better contemporary anti-bush rap song, why didn't those bastards at the village voice vote for this (unless they actually did...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGTb6I-qqCw

"the west coast equivalent that symsymsym posted upthread is far superior. followed it up with a heavily underrated post too imo :D"

:)

It's not, but it does undermine your point that mainstream rap was being critically marginalized at the time.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, January 25, 2011 10:47 AM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

orly

you were pulling this shit in one of the other p&j threads...there's absolutely no reason to shit on metal on this board...

― some hills are never seen (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, January 25, 2011 10:53 AM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

im not shitting on metal, im just pointing out that bringing up metal in this thread as a pt of comparison w/ rap is total apples & oranges -- they have massively different audiences & approaches to success & critical discourses

but deej! Metallica is bigger than Black Eyed Peas! that parallel says it all, argument over!

But bringing up the terrible critical mistreatment of rap in a "which of these doofusy political songs is the most shitty" is just as pointless so

Xposts

critics liking shitty rap & justifying it on political grounds is v much part & parcel of that discussion actually

xp I do kind of get what deej is saying...if the "mainstream" critics who put this in the p&j had a better understanding of hip hop then they would not be so quick to be giving the song--a clumsy, corny mixtape rap with topical current-events appeal--any kind of legitimacy...

xp I do kind of get what deej is saying...if the "mainstream" critics who put this in the p&j had a better understanding of hip hop then they would not be so quick to be giving the song--a clumsy, corny mixtape rap with topical current-events appeal--any kind of legitimacy...

wow twice as redundant

it doesnt really bug me that legendary KO was on pazz and jop? because like pazz and jop? but its pretty funny that people are still riding for it thousands of years later

Also did you just talk about the primacy and overwhelming undeniable popularity of rap as grounds for a certain kind of critical coverage and then complain about diamond not placing in p&j within like 5 posts or

hey um, if i could go on-topic, which i guess is off-topic

but bonzo goes to bitburg is a pretty amazing song in my book. i like how the bells sort of recall back to the phil spector's production on "end of the century" but also the song is taking the ramones formula into 80s mainstream rock territory without compromising what's great about them.

i also like how, for a political song, joey intentionally makes the chorus non-political, my brain is hanging upside down i need something to slow me down...it makes it feel bigger and more universal, rather than just reagan sucks

also the way joey can't even fully articulate his feelings about what he's seeing:

bonzo goes to bitburg then goes out for a cup of tea
as i watch it on tv somehow it really bothered me"

there's something vaguely sad about the melody against the chord change for these lines...reminds me a bit of how the lines "send it off in a letter to yourself" function in "rikki don't lose that number" by steely dan, there's some sadness operating around the margins of the song, but you can't quite grasp it...

like joey kind of sees how things are going to go in the future, how imagery would eventually replace thought in politics, but he can't even explain it, even to himself....

it's even greater for the fact that any joey political stuff always has an element of the personal, after seeing the end of the century documentary and learning about all the strife between him and jonny, it's hard to read any ramones liberal politicals as anything but a partial shot at jonny, who i'm sure really looked up to reagan

i dunno, i've pretty much come full circle on the ramones to the way i thought when i first heard them at like 15...i just love them without reservations, but now it's better because i appreciate how much they could communicate with the simplest lyrics and musical gestures....

just one of the finest bands that ever existed, even in their declining years they'd still manage to tap in their ability to write the occaissional perfect pop song, and i think this is an example