Can You Force Yourself To Like A Record Through Blunt-Force Repetition?

Conversely, I wasn't struck by the Amel Larrieux song at all on first listen, but I'm pretty confident that if I heard it a bunch of times (maybe sequenced around some other suitable tracks) and heard it in a few different contexts outside of cursory YouTube sessions, that its qualities would start shining through. I think the qualities that make this kind of music appealing to people are secondary to me and therefore aren't likely to register with me the first time round. I think, personally speaking, the 'message' of a song (the lyrics or sentiment) has a tendency to ingrain itself a bit later on than other factors might - texture, concept, (huge) hooks or whatever.

Larrieux song intrigued me on first listen, blew me away on second. If I love something it's *usually* got to have a very strong effect on me from the get-go but there are many counterexamples.

I heard it on Lex's mix and had that rare feeling of familiarity-on-first-listen. Lex's criteria for music-evaluation is so alien to me that it feels especially good when there is intersection.

^this, although I do declare he and I intersect a good deal more than is logically plausible, usually in the region of slow, spacious, slightly artsy R&B

I think my take on this is similar to jmm's - the best way for me to get into unfamilar or off-putting music is to take the long way around and listen to other things that put it into context. When I'm getting into a band I'm usually drawn to the songs that aren't too far away from things I already like but then I grow to like the rest of their stuff on its own terms - like when I first started listening to Creedence my favourite song on Cosmo's Factory was 'Who'll Stop the Rain' because it was mellow and had nice harmonies like Neil Young or The Byrds or something but I definitely wouldn't pick it as a standout now.

O, although I haven't mixed or worked on any music that isn't mine own in over 5 years, so I'm at a disadvantage, I don't really count "songs you hear 100 times in the course of doing session work or mixing an album" in this kind of repetition, for the simple reason that I listen to music I am *working on* with a specifically different part of my brain than music I am listening to (either for pleasure, or to review an album). Doing recording/mixing work is listening with the question "what does this need done to it?' in mine, listening for pleasure or evaluation is "what is here right now".

(And I've seen how the two modes of listening can lead to terrible differences of opinions - I've certainly been in a studio where the band and producer, who have heard the album 200 times, have one idea of which song should be the single (i.e. the only one they're not all sick of, after 200 listens) while the record company dude or manager, who has listened to the demos twice, will think it should be a different song entirely.

The Image Band thread I was thinking about was mine own Syllabus Band thread:

Artists With A Syllabus - is this or is it no longer A Thing?

But I wanted to discuss more "image" that works, and improves a band, as well as image that doesn't work/is disparate from the band's sound (because lord knows we don't need another shrieking thread of "OMG, Justin Timberlake wearing an MC5 t-shirt, the world will end!" etc) but I'll do more of a search and see if I have started one already over the course of the years, because I find it hard to imagine that I didn't start one over e.g. the Strokes.

My experience of repetition causing me to hate music that I'm actually making is that it's the hearing of the tracks in pieces and especially the way those pieces often don't fit together the way I want that makes me hate. Whereas disliking other people's music through repetition is more because the overall feel of the song doesn't work for me, rather than individual elements. There have been exceptions ('oh that closed hi-hat is really too loud'), but even then it has to be a major flaw for it to bother me.

OK, this is starting to take on the aspect of a mythical quest, where ~obtaining the album~ is becoming so difficult that I'm going to force myself to like it through scarcity value!

Because I've looked through all the charity shops in Streatham and though every other goddamn landfill indie band of the early 00s is in there (why didn't I pick Franz Ferdinand? Or the Strokes? Or the Yeah Yeah Yeahs? They're all really easy to find!) I can't find this one.

I will end up going into town to see if Fopp has it, because I refuse to pay full price for it. Hmmmmmmm.

Which one are you going for? The debut? I'll post you our copy if you want.

Yeah, the debut. That seems oddly in keeping with the spirit of the project, to have a friend post it. (I can post it back to you when I'm done if you miss it.)

But I am actually going into town tonight anyway so I could very easily just go to Fopp (I'd be embarrassed to buy it at Rough Trade, to be honest).

If you'd be embarrassed to buy it at Rough Trade, you should buy it there - that seems even more in keeping with the project spirit!

Well, in spirit, yes, but mostly not, because they'd make me pay full price, which I am currently refusing to do.

Heck I should just download it off a blog and stop whinging.

if repetition arrives prejudiced as "blunt force" and "pick an album you know you don't like in a genre you're not into" then no, nothing will be gained because there is nothing to gain

Can You Force Yourself To Like A Record Through Blunt-Force Repetition? [Started by I'd rather be the swallow than a dick (Branwell Bell) in January 2014, last updated 1 minute ago by r|t|c] 115 new answers
Paul Simon's 'Graceland' [Started by dave q in December 2001, last updated 4 minutes ago by lag∞n] 13 new answers

(really Did. Not. Get. King while bouncing around on a Thursday evening or whatever, but loved it on a Sunday morning, feeling lazy & relaxed)

and like this is a misapprehension straight off the bat? it's so not a cosmic chill out record or whatever. begs the q does repetition mean cumulative understanding or actually taking millions of goes to hear it once properly

xp heh must concede that is v well played imago

I'm not sure what your point is?

If you think that this is a pointless and stupid idea, then yes, you're absolutely right, there is nothing to be gained from doing it, and you should probably not participate.

I do not know if it's pointless or possible for myself - I just know that it was mooted on another thread as a guaranteed way of making a person like "anything" - so I wanted to know if it would work on me.

Lots of other people have posited opinions on whether it is/isn't possible, or suggested alternate things that could change a person's mind on an album (context, friends' opinions, reforming one's ideas either of the self or the "kind of person that listens to this music). All of these are helpful, but for me, the single most helpful thing would be, to actually *try* doing it.

What is not helpful for me, is making blanket statements like "nothing will be gained because there is nothing to gain."

Just reading this thread, which I think is interesting, but wanted to pick up on this:

i posit the theory that in order to like a record - or to be able to say we like it with something approaching sincerity - we have to be able to assimilate extra-musical elements of it into our worldview, either by refining our worldview or re-categorizing the record

I don't think this rings true for me, there are records which I love which I neither agree nor identify with, and in fact feel enduringly alien to me (examples are some of the country music I adore and some of the religious music I love, too), and I don't feel the need to re-categorize them in order to like them, I feel I can like them on their own terms.

I would have to do some kind of wriggly thinking to make your point right, like "I want to think of myself as the sort of person who likes Toby Keith without having to assimilate his world-view", or similar sophistry.

I'm going to say a very predictable Branwell type of thing here, but I think this may be more of a concern for the Cis-Het Dude who uses music and Taste as his way of establishing a narrative about who he is, and the kinds of things that he likes? I mean, this idea of "projecting personality through music" is something that I mostly associate with young people - but then I have indeed met Cis-Het Dudes who literally are afraid to admit to being The Kind Of Person who likes pop, or certain kinds of dance music, because it would make them literally "like a woman" or "like a gay person" to like that kind of thing.

There was an article a while back about predicting music taste based on prior plays - I seem to recall a man who was trying out Pandora or some streaming radio service like that, and he was upset that it kept trying to play him (I think it was Celine Dion or something like that) and he kept complaining "why are you playing me this? Do I look like the kind of person who would like Celine Dion?" and the man at the streaming service kept talking about their algorithms and predictive programming and actually, it fit in with everything else he was listening to. And after grumbling a bit, then sitting down and just listening to it (for the sake of the article he was writing, clearly) a bit, he realised, actually, yes, he liked Celine Dion, and he had to change his worldview to conceive of himself as The Kind Of Person That Likes Celine Dion.

I think if you have already either a) detached your musical taste from your sense of identity or b) you have an inherent identity which puts you outside the demographic of "cis-het white dude" which "Objective" "Taste" is configured around, then you are less likely to fall prey to this kind of thinking. But I have indeed met many people who do.

I agree, but that was kind of the point of my last sentence: if there are people who are scared of being "the sort of person who likes pop" there are surely also people who enjoy being "the sort of person who looks like they wouldn't like pop but actually does like pop", right? I mean, we can play with and enjoy layered ways of thinking about ouselves and perceptions of ourselves.

Anyway, I'm basically saying that the universal law posited by NV is a dicey business.

Day 1 Check-in: still hate this album, but I've gone from the nebulous view that "it's just like those parody songs on 'Not The Nine O'Clock News' but not funny' to more specific complaints (there's not a lot of variation in arrangements, all the tracks are kind of sedate sounding).

pardon my ignorance but what is cis/het dude?

identifies as same gender as 'born' into, doesn't like the cock v much

he likes the only one that matters

This is becoming a ridiculously epic quest just to FIND a physical copy of this album.

1) THERE IS NO MORE HMV ON OXFORD STREET. When did this happen? How did this happen? Have I really not been in central London for this long?

2) Berwick St. Sister Ray only had a Japanese import double disc limited edition for £16!!! no way am I spending that for a hatefuck of a listen

3) Second hand record shops. Not only are there far, far less of them than there used to be, but they are so picked over it's barely worth bothering.

I am beginning to wonder if this record even exists at this point.

Closed a couple of weeks ago.
http://metro.co.uk/2014/01/12/flagship-hmv-store-at-150-oxford-street-closes-4259775/
The very same store where in 2001 a young professional couple mistook me for a member of staff and asked me where the easy listening section was.

Oh god that went with a whimper and not a bang. RIP :-(

Once the Virgin Megastore closed* the HMV faded out gradually over several years. I tried to drop in every time I happened to be in Central London for job interviews or whatever, and it just seemed to get bleaker and bleaker. Like the Tower Records store in Piccadilly Circus just before it was sold to Virgin.

(* I don't count it re-opening as Zavvi as competition)

I can remember when I first started coming to London as an adult to buy CDs, and the walk from HMV to Virgin (with a stop for the billion shops of Berwick Street) was such an exciting adventure. Gone, all gone now. So depressing.

(I think HMV opened up a new store up the other end of Oxford Street a little while ago fwiw, in the building which was the HMV flagship store when I first started record shopping in London in 1982 or whenever.)

I don't know why I'm saying "store" not "shop", it'll always be the HMV Shop to me.

if there are people who are scared of being "the sort of person who likes pop" there are surely also people who enjoy being "the sort of person who looks like they wouldn't like pop but actually does like pop", right? I mean, we can play with and enjoy layered ways of thinking about ouselves and perceptions of ourselves.

absolutely. the one doesn't undermine the other.

Should be possible to find Interpol albums and many other forms of indie pop detritus at Poundland.

Thanks, Tim. Fizzles did suggest this last night, but I have buggered my left ankle and could not face walking down to the other end of Oxford St at that point.

I looked at Poundland. I looked at Oxfam. I looked at Cancer Research. I looked at British Heart Foundation. There is lots of indie detritus. There is no Indiepol.

They seek him here, they seek him there
In Regents Street, and Leicester Square!

https://31.media.tumblr.com/5c3c2382525cab9d4ca89235a6ea68f2/tumblr_n031c4z14Q1rjw8sqo1_500.gif

Poundland does seem to be a place where you can buy the cream of shit music from ten years ago.

I still have not managed to hear a single note of Indiepol's music, but I now know all their names, and which one I fancy the most. This feels like progress, in my world.

Don't want to prejudice your investigation here, but the actual music on that first Interpol record is actually alright imo. You're fairly well disposed to stuff like the Bunnymen, the Psychedelic Furs and New Order right? I think as long as you can deal with them aping those bands you'll be halfway there, but the biggest barriers to enjoyment are the terrible vocals and lyrics. Not sure if those will improve much with listening, but you might be able to tune them out after a while.

Terrible vocals, terrible lyrics, and the fact that the singer shares both a first name and a surname with the two most objectively awful boyfriends of my life.

Where is Rob? I told him to come and post his experiences with this project on this thread, instead of teasing me on twitter, where is he?

If you remember I chose a 'canonical' album for this exercise but didn't reveal what it was. BB knew what it was as we discussed it off-board. The reason I chose it was because I bought it in '94 not long after it was issued and hated it. It was supposed to be this wonderful album, the future on one disc and I didn't get it at all. All I heard was doodles - pretty doodles. And more than anything I felt jealous. Because this was the kind of music I'd been making at home for years. Admittedly this album was better than what I'd done, but it just sounded like my music only on a slightly bigger budget. So I played it a few times, didn't like it much and put it away. From time to time I'd play it and think "No, still don't see the appeal". Oh and I TOTALLY objected to the album title, feeling I was completely mis-sold the record. It didn't do what it said on the tin, to paraphrase Ronseal. It seemed like the natural choice for this exercise.

I've played this LP twice since Sunday night and already I have changed my mind on it. With time and distance I can recognise that it's far superior to anything I ever made, and that the artist's future progression far outstrips anything I could manage. So my personal objections are nullified. As for the music itself, I have absolutely no objection to it now and find it pleasant, tuneful and interesting. I used to think it repetitive and boring. I was wrong, there is always something interesting going on. I am quite happy to keep listening to this album without recourse to a gun at my head. Therefore I can't really carry on using this album for the experiment so may have to go to "Close to the edge". After all, if I turned that off after 13 minutes then I really do have to work through my dislike of it.

Now you've got me trying to guess what it is.

IMO, you can carry on using the album for this experiment, because the experiment has clearly worked! It would be interesting to see if more listening made you swing your opinion back round to not liking it again. (Then again, I've listened to that album 100s of times and still find something of worth each time.)

Though if you'd really rather do the experiment over again with an album you still really hate (Close To The Edge) I guess that would be a second set of data.

SAW2 i reckon xp

s/o BB for starting the syllabus thread, always ask musicians about it now in interviews.

I kind of want to do this, but I'm pretty sure I have the "stick-to-itiveness" problem mentioned upthread. Also, no idea what I'd choose. Mariah Carey?

But then I sort of get the rationalist reasons for liking her, even if personally I cannot stand it, so would that skew the results by giving me some sort of "in" already?

the quiz it was linking to does not seem to be there anymore, but this seems it may be relevant to interpol research?

http://www.interpolnyc.com/forum//index.php?/topic/13492-which-interpol-member-are-you/?s=47f736291f10535635496816a845c13e

Aw, I'd love to read you doing this, emil.y! Ask Lex or someone what the most canonical Mariah Carey album is. I'm genuinely not saying this as a joke, I would actually like to see if you can come to terms with finding something on a musician's level to appreciate.

p.s. in interests of full disclosure, I do have to admit that I have, in the past couple of years (i.e. through running the School of Seven Bells Tumblr (with added extra TSM bits)) come into contact with the Interpol fanbase a great deal, because of the overlap between those bands. So I do actually already know a fuck of a lot about the band (stupidly too much for a band I don't even like) and come pre-primed with all the information about why I *should* like them. I just don't. So I do actually have an additional incentive to find something to like, and start liking them, so I can interact with the fanbase more enjoyably.

I should just order the album already off the link that Rob shot me. I am not going to find it in Poundland, even in Wales. ;-)

Rob, are you going to confirm or deny the guesses on your album?

SAW2 i reckon xp

― keiji cretins (NickB), Tuesday, January 28, 2014 10:39 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah that's what i was thinking.