K-pop (2015)

their sound is definitely more r&b-focused than any SM group before them, probably largely because (especially for such a "small" unit) with SM's method of specialization most of the times there'd only be one powerhouse vocalist, whereas RV have three.

in terms of a more lyrical/imagistic "identity," SNSD were designed to be the model citizen/woman/wife (at least in terms of asian patriarchy of the past decade...), f(x) answered that by being smart and sassy aesthetes, and as SM said, RV are meant to split the difference between those two.that ties into their musical concept with being both red (fierce barnburners) and velvet (smooth janets). i thought that would be a middling disaster but this album actually delivers on the concept and proves its versatility. granted, SM plays with these boundary lines at times, but usually they're pretty consistent (i.e., even when SNSD gets weird with "i got a boy" it's about valorizing 'nice guys' and talking about how they want to look good for them; it's really only now that they're all aging out of their idol years anyway that they're allowed to sing a song like "you think;" meanwhile, when they were young, even f(x) did stuff like "chu" alongside brattier proclamations like "nu ABO"). i think RV will probably get more Red over the next few years then enter their autumn (i.e. where SNSD's been for the past year or two) by getting progressively more Velvet, and that their lyrics for at least the Red vibe will be more f(x)-style than, say, "dumb dumb" or "ice cream cake," which are much more submissive/SNSD than the arrangements would suggest.

granted, i don't mean to answer for abcfsk, i'm curious what he/she has to say about it

I think SNSD have been locked to the kpopian trend of concepts and never really got a permanent character, not even a waifu-esque one - and so they could be completely dumb and passive one single (Oh!) and fierce the next (Run Devil Run) and then all over the place the last few years. Their debut single more than anything signalled a serious performance group with hard synchronized dancing, and then they got really sickly cute for a couple of follow-ups.

Anyway, I think f(x) has a sort of punk kidz aesthetic, rebelling youth, standing up to societal conventions, kicking waste bins, sticking your tongue out at adults, finding support in your tough 'unnie' instead. Red Velvet is a brighter mash up of pop culture colors, a rush of surface emotions. Musically I think that's been a part of them from the start, even as people thought they were aping f(x) early on. Ok so we have to work a bit harder to make 'Automatic' fit in, but I guess they also need their down time. Both f(x) and Red Velvet have their own signature vocal styling, but where f(x) get that bratty schoolyard rhyme thing going Red Velvet play with cheerleader chants.

i think SNSD have some superficially "fierce" stuff, but even "run devil run" is about being cheated on and still from a subordinate perspective (this is her telling him off after catching him and trying to reason him out of this "habit" multiple times; also, "i'll get my revenge when i become a great person someday," i.e. even in this moment the notion of payback is aspirational and deferred). and stuff like "the boys" seems like girl power encouragement a la f(x)'s standards only until you notice that all this chest-puffing is just to get the boys' attention. even when they were "a serious performance group w/ hard synchronized dancing" (not like that indicates anything either way), they were announcing themselves with and named after a song wherein a "selfish grabber"/older man corners her and brings her into virginal hysterics with a sudden kiss.

plus this "ideal wife" thing isn't an inference, that's been the marketing gameplan for them from day one (and also of all the girl groups whose clear debt to them is mentioned by the public at their every turn: girlfriend, lovelyz, now april too, apink though maybe they've been doing it for so long it's started to seem like their own...)

I vaguely remember someone connected to SNSD saying something along those lines, but I don't see any documents spelling that out for each of those groups. Admittedly naming your group "Girlfriend" gives away some of the thinking. Anyway even if they did set out to be the ideal image of a wife for men they haven't sold that image consistently. Thinking back on their aesthetics through the 8 years it hasn't defined their overall image: a jumbled mix of various hats for various occasions. Even when they sold that ideal through songs like Kissing Yous and Oh!s they never came off that way in their promotional activities, which I think is an important thing to consider. I grew interested in kpop partially by watching SNSD variety and they were always loud, comfortably themselves, fun, rambunctious. Then there's the Japanese campaign which has almost exclusively sold them as mature, model-like ideals for women. So if the strategy was to sell them as demure kittens they weren't very good at executing it and I think very few kpop observers would identify them as such when asked 'what kind of group is SNSD?'. If there's anything to connect the dots of their career I think it's the comfort and likeability with which they've been 'Korea's top group', regardless of musical output, never seeming particularly tested until the Jessica thing.

(SNSD debuted with Into the New world, not 'SNSD'. Re: RDR consider lines like "When I cared for you I warned you to act nice" - implying she's set the rules, he broke them, good riddance since half the world is men. That serves as the conclusion to the song.)

i'm saying that even through those various hats and occasions, that message has been surprisingly consistent throughout. i don't think "ideal woman/dream girl" precludes them from being fun or comfortable with themselves, or any of the other things you're saying (then again, you mentioned the "hard synchronized dancing" of k-pop as a counterpoint, whereas i would say that implies to the viewer the very kind of obedience and self-sacrifice central to this type of image – see girlfriend getting all these props in the media and in fact taking the song higher on the charts than it was upon release for their willingness to hurt themselves so much for the act). it's true that a group like apink has taken it a step further than SNSD (saying on variety that none of them have ever been kissed so when they sing about kissing they're thinking about their fans, come the fuck on) but that's extreme even by the standards of this concept. as for their image in japan, i still think being modelesque and perfect is actually an example of this strategy, not anything contrary to it (to be clear, the desired effect isn't that they seem accessible – that would be AKB48 with the whole "endearing inability" thing – but the very opposite: both as role models and objects of fantasies, they represent an ideal by the very token of being superlative).

have you asked anyone in asia that question about what type of group SNSD is? b/c i'm basing this off a broad spread of things, and the role model/ideal wife appeal is almost always one of the first things i've heard in exactly those types of conversations. it was actually the first time it occurred to me at all, tbh (coming from a place where i need to google translations if i wanna understand the lyrics, and where the asian social mores in response to which these personae are designed aren't intuitive/engrained in the way it is for their intended audience; with a song and video as fierce as IGAB, i would've never imagined they're singing about how showing their boyfriends their bare face is unthinkable).

It's certainly an interesting question with a song like IGAB, it's hard to read one way or the other. Even as someone who speaks Korean and also checks out lyric translations the content didn't really register before someone else brought it up. And the lyrics are dumb, but are they what people take away from the release? What I remember from Korean fans instant reactions (purely anecdotally, reading news story comments and fan board discussion) is "coool" "hip hop power" etc. People will probably remember the super sing-along chorus (i got a boy - !MEOTJIN!) but do they consider the whole thing to send a certain message? I don't know, but I don't think we can look at the lyrics in isolation either. And the tone of the lyrics is deeply silly to the point of being one big joke, even if I won't defend communicating those stale attitudes even in this fashion. It is worth discussing though, since as you mention The Boys had a similar weird juxtaposition going.

What I remember people saying about SNSD in Korea is mostly "pretty". I've had some deeper discussions about kpop with Koreans and other Asians while living there but not so much about SNSD specifically. They are, or were at least, seemingly known for long legs and the personalities of the various members.

Oh and IGAB is possibly the only time SNSD have inspired a big mainstream discussion about the music and compositional qualities of a single release of theirs. Like there were thinkpieces being written about its structure and netizens fights about whether it was bold or messy.

i think the one-listen impression is diff from the content, esp when we're talking about lyrics of a music that is predominantly enjoyed by non-speakers (though in any event, most people aren't careful or critical listeners anyway). and i don't suggest looking at just the lyrics: i just think what a song is "about" is significant, esp when we're talking about the identity of a group (esp esp when that identity is so carefully considered, developed and executed).

oh and forgot to respond, yes ITNW was their debut song but "girls generation" is the opening track of their debut as well as their literal name lol. this is mostly semantic though, i think we're just defining what's meaningful here in totally diff ways

Yeah what their songs are about is an interesting topic of discussion, and so is looking at what their image is in the eyes of the mainstream Korean observer. And I don't think you can say that this identity is carefully developed and executed when it is, at best, an odd contrast to their general aesthetics. And even if I can't speak on behalf on anyone else I'm guessing that it's not an identity people actually identify SNSD with, at least anymore.

Like you say A Pink has stuck with it and developed it 'better' (and even though I think it's kind of an icky image to go with, in some ways it is actually better for A Pink because they've managed to find a sound of their own). What this started out with was basically my claim that they've suffered from not having an identity to anchor their songs to.

well to sum up, i guess we've heard different things from "the mainstream korean observer" (though again, i don't think the stuff you're quoting in any way contradicts this central purpose of their image: same deal w/r/t looking occasionally kinda hip-hop or generally beautiful). as for whether this is the impression anymore, i'd actually say if they've ever grown out of that at all it's been recently and deliberately ("you think," alcohol references in "party," etc). but that's a function of their age, as ridiculous as that sounds (the idol fantasy enters a weird and terminal limbo when the members start hitting the mid-20s, at least for girl groups – the reasons for which being a whole other discussion).

granted, i'm not trying to blow up anyone's spot but i do have this much on pretty good authority...

as for apink, i did not say they do it "better!" those are not my quotation marks, friend. i actually find the whole ordeal tiresome and regressive, a symptom of the knotty oppa/aegyo superstructure that is one thing about korean culture i'm not uncomfortable saying kinda grosses me out.

My quotation marks of course! We can go back and forth on that. But fundamentally this was not so much me trying to say that SNSD don't connote a certain ideal as saying their aesthetics lack that coherence which guides them towards a musical identity. Which is why I suggested, in one way, A Pink have done better.

well i def see you on that. as in my original post, i was talking musical identity and conceptual identity as two different things. the twain only ever really meets in the lyrics, for SM anyway. f(x) has done tons of stuff that musically doesn't coincide with their image in any obvious way for ex

and yes apink have done a nice job of bringing those two together, even if some of that is by virtue of rewriting the same single so many times

not complaining either, they're typically really good and just-different-enough rewrites

Stoked to see how f(x) will 'answer' next month

i'm a bit worried tbh but it'll be interesting to see how SM might reposition them in light of luna's public success as a serious singer, her and amber's EDM moment at ultra, sulli peacing, etc

should add that amber's also become a much bigger star in korea since their last promo cycle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5OWy_FGpQA

hot dang

Seventeen continue to do fun things with funk and unique things with their 13-member choreography. beginning to feel like love

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M7k9ZV67c0

fuck yeah! is this RV's first instiz #1? a low score for that (170) but i'm willing to take whatever might help SM feel this direction is a success for them

more good news for that: http://www.allkpop.com/article/2015/09/red-velvet-tops-itunes-chinas-yinyuetai-and-korean-album-charts-with-the-red

Ice Cream Cake peaked at #2 on instiz.

is that just total recall or is this data stored anywhere? would love to have access to that kind of thing

Former. Ofc you can go back to any point in time and view that ichart, but doesn't seem like they have pages for specific artists and their records.

wonder what the number was on that. happy for RV but so far this is what koreans call "robbing an empty house"

Just looked up the lyrics for "Dumb Dumb" & it looks like RV are alternating between trying to build a teen-girl fanbase by being relatable - weird on the surface but conventional deep down (although "Happiness" was a misstep in that dept. 'cos the line between 'relating' to fans and 'condescending' to them is fine); and pedo-baiting and older male audience. They may end up with a broad fanbase like Morning Musume or Lana Del Ray.

Or at least that would appear to be the goal for them...

Seventeen <3

If they don't get the Rookie of the Year Award, YG's clout will be confirmed... (iKon are debuting just before the deadline for consideration for the award).

Yr periodic K-indie crosspost from Omona:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=96&v=XFgcbWJqhyk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFgcbWJqhyk

And another... I dunno man, everything sounds good tonight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0siyZQ_bSE

This Jun Jin record is pretty great...

https://youtu.be/gJMKOuou4Vg

On a related not, Shinhwa's single from earlier this year ("Sniper") was also pretty great, though I don't think we talked about it here.

Hm and Up10Tion is a lot better than you'd expect a rookie group with a name like that to be, though not as good as the teaser (basically the last 30 seconds of the song) made it sound like they were gonna be: : https://youtu.be/UJ6hLS4OCfc

Of special interest, at least to me: the EXO Baekhyun soundalike who comes it @ 3:50.

oh ikon will win rookie of the year no doubt. that's not even a question.

"dubm dumb" cracks 200 on instiz – likely a first for them – and got nearly 2 million views in 24 hours, which is better than a lot of the older SM groups. bodes well i think!

I dunno, can they win a year after Winner won? Surely the gen public would rebel... maybe they could come in #2 like Mino did on SMTM4.

Up10Tion suffers from boyband vocals in a few parts, but the main vocals are CARRYING that bridge, man. Also the beat is simple but it's pretty good!

JYP's band group Day6 https://youtu.be/dBShLTlKm2A

Nothing special about them sonically or lyrically, but it's kinda interesting watching a band with no obvious frontman... there's been "idol" bands before but they still followed a band model - this is the most 'idol'-like of all those bands I think.

Honestly it doesn't really work, they all look like they're waiting for their turn to perform :p The lighting doesn't help either

Rapper is v. good by JYP standards tho

Yeah what you really want when debuting a kpoprock band is a sappy ballad.

Lion Heart is holding on well after initial chart disappointment. Impressive for what is arguably the worst SNSD single released so far.

Here to save us from the draught is another music competition show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtxDqunIi7g

Truedy (2:21, complete unknown to most) won the first ep ahead of Haze (first one out). Hyorin got last place.

Heize*

massive new k-pendium on the origins of japanese and korean popular music, basically a bunch of people die http://www.k-pendium.com/005

probably going to have to hop off ilm soon for k-related reasons, not sure when i'll be back but going to finally get into regular pendium updates soon. check it sometime (y)

Are you hoping off because you won't have the time or for some other reason, soyrev?

Checking it out now!

Korea has banned ilxor, I'm afraid. It's deemed damaging to the moral sensibilities of the nation's youth and possibly related to NK spying.

Quickly glancing at the text I'm happy to read more about the Japanese connection - love so many bits and pieces of retro JP pop, know so little about it. Will read.

Really?? That seems kinda... unnecessary... unless the idea is to protect native Korean music discovery portals.

That was a really enjoyable history lesson, soyrev. I think "Ressurection" has something to it outside of the narrative and if koganbot was still around he might have something to say about the connection with Eastern European popular music, which is still true for lots of Kpop songs today. Also I think we must be around the same age.

I am vindicated in my comment that Bang Bang is (actually) a Kpop song: https://youtu.be/m303B9gQ-SA