Non-Wacky Zappa POX, S&D, etc

Saying "I wish all of his albums were instrumental" is almost a cliche at this point (see: Shut Up & Play Your Guitar, etc) but I am firmly in this camp. I love the hell out of Hot Rats, (most of) Apostrophe, (half of) Roxy, and parts of others, but always wish I liked his albums more than I do. I like the early albums fine but they veer more toward novelty to me (I'm including everything up to Reuben here), like above-average wacky psych pop, but not really the sort of thing I reach for.

That said, I expect I will have a "Zappa phase" at some point in my life. There's just so much good shit mixed in with so much dumb scatological nonsense.

A "Non-Wacky Zappa S&D" would be most welcome

― Wimmels, Sunday, November 27, 2016 7:00 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So how 'bout it? Help me make a playlist of psych guitar freakout/ heroism (or mellow, lyrical, melodic jam-mode) Zappa with zero burnt weenies, yellow snow, or "pneumies" to be found. Songs with vocals are OK (I guess) but mostly looking for stuff that showcases Zappa the composer / improvisor / guitarist and not the fart-crazed obnoxious libertarian shit-disturber

uh the title track to burnt weeny sandwich is a psych guitar hero instrumental? and actually that whole album is, save for the bookending doo-wop covers, pretty much exactly what you're looking for?

See, that's the sorta info I need! I realize the title of that record alludes to the fact that Frank liked to eat, err, burnt hot dogs on bread, btw, just think it's a typically dumb Zappa title, and probably the single thing that kept me from hearing it.

Search: Zappa works by chamber ensembles. Separate the compositions from the asshole who wrote them.

Ensemble Ambrosius - The Zappa Album (FZ played on Baroque instruments)
Le Concert Impromptu - Prophetic Attitude (woodwind quintet)
Omnibus Wind Ensemble - Music by Frank Zappa (larger woodwind ensemble)
Ensemble Modern - Ensemble Modern Plays Zappa (chamber orchestra, worked with FZ on The Yellow Shark)

The Meridian Arts Ensemble (brass quintet) has played a lot of FZ and got his blessing just before he died, but I think their stuff is poorly recorded.

yeah _all_ his songs have stupid/gross/offensive titles. see also "i promise not to come in your mouth", which is actually a pretty gorgeous instrumental ballad. but that's on the same record as "the illinois enema bandit", which is possibly the single most detestable thing he ever did. it's, uh, very easy to write him off entirely!

if you like hot rats, obvious good next steps are waka/jawaka, the grand wazoo, and sleep dirt, all of which are various shades of "instrumental jazz", though with sleep dirt make sure you get the vinyl version, because he overdubbed some of the songs with vocals when he put it out on cd... "sleep dirt" probably most up your alley. waka/jawaka is a little bit herbie hancock mwandishi, and grand wazoo is a little bit don ellis... "sleep dirt", in contrast, has as its centerpiece the excellent "the ocean is the ultimate solution" (ugh pun) and he'd recovered his guitar chops from the 1971 assault he suffered, which isn't really the case about waka/jawaka and the grand wazoo.

i listen to a lot of the bootlegs, honestly. not much of a fan of zappa's production/mixing style after about 1970 and would rather listen to raw audience (or soundboard) tapes. right now i'm listening to a one-off festival appearance he did in 1970 with jean-luc ponty. the whole thing is pure instrumental jamming. for more composed stuff the jean-luc ponty "king kong" lp is an extremely underrated record.

all good suggestions here so far

I have Waka / Jawaka and The Grand Wazoo and maybe need to go back to them. Sleep Dirt sounds like just the thing, but you raise a good point about Zappa's tampering with the mixes. I know there is a difference between CD versions, so am I looking for the Ryko versions, the Zappa (label) versions, Barking Pumpkin...? I know I have the "wrong" version of Reuben & The Jets, according to a Zappa-fanatic pal, but can't remember why. Is the 'remixing' that noticeable?

(sorry if this has been covered elsewhere btw)

with sleep dirt make sure you get the vinyl version, because he overdubbed some of the songs with vocals when he put it out on cd

the original non-vocal version out there on cd nowadays.

and yeah it's a great record.

all good suggestions here so far

I have Waka / Jawaka and The Grand Wazoo and maybe need to go back to them. Sleep Dirt sounds like just the thing, but you raise a good point about Zappa's tampering with the mixes. I know there is a difference between CD versions, so am I looking for the Ryko versions, the Zappa (label) versions, Barking Pumpkin...? I know I have the "wrong" version of Reuben & The Jets, according to a Zappa-fanatic pal, but can't remember why. Is the 'remixing' that noticeable?

― Wimmels

discogs says the 2012 zappa records cds are the ones without the vox. as for the "wrong" version of "cruising with ruben and the jets", yes, it's _very_ different and much worse, but honestly the original version isn't really worth seeking out in the first place - it's always going to be a record of "greasy doo-wop tunes", it's just that most cd versions are albums of "greasy doo-wop tunes" with grossly inappropriate '80s overdubs by scott thunes and chad wackerman. you're better off just listening to the penguins' "memories of el monte" if you want to hear zappa's doo-wop.

See, I sorta like that album, but (because?) it's not typical Zappa, kind of an outlier. Like if I felt like I needed a Zappa fix I'd never think to play that record

search "Watermelon In Easter Hay" off of Joe's Garage Part 2 iirc

well if you like "cruising with ruben and the jets" your zappa tolerance is higher than most people's. hell, you'd probably like the opening and closing numbers on _burnt weeny sandwich_ too!

there's a nice official release from the summer '73 european tour. pretty good for instrumental zappa fans because between suffering his assault and his hiring napoleon murphy brock as vocalist in october 1973, he didn't have anybody in the band he considered "a vocalist" (except kin vassy, for a week)- so not much singing. honestly my personal preference is for the spring '73 band that went on tour with the mahavishnu orchestra at their creative peak and held their own, but nothing of significance has been released from that tour, and you might actually prefer the summer '73 set better, as by that time they'd dropped "don't eat the yellow snow". out of two and a half hours of music i count _four_ songs with vocals, and one of those i really like ("village of the sun" has a different intro/outro arrangement to the later "roxy and elsewhere" version). the release also has the good sense to cut the most boring parts of their set, such as the unaccountably tedious mr. green genes/king kong/chunga's revenge medley and the detestable "cosmik debris". whether you can handle 40 full minutes of "dupree's paradise" is perhaps an open question (personally i _love_ "dupree's paradise", because any number that starts with george duke doing whatever the hell he wants for ten minutes can't be wrong in my book), but they do at least track it as three separate tracks.

oh also search all 3 volumes of Shut Up And Play Yer Guitar, obviously

I love "Village Of The Sun" as well, and I can also comfortably hang with "Cosmik Debris", bit harsh there imo

xp thanks, xiphoid! I'm a big fan of "Village Of The Sun" (my favorite jam on Roxy). I can't even imagine what it would have been like seeing Mahavishnu and Zappa on the same bill. I know Zappa hated almost everybody, but he and McLaughlin were mutual appreciators, right?

What's the summer 1973 official release called?

Oh, and I've never heard Shut Up & Play Your Guitar, but I'm intrigued by the one song with bozouki (sp?) accompaniment. I should track that one down.

I have always really liked "Watermelon in Easter Hay." That one and "Inca Roads" were the tunes that originally made me wanna give Zappa a chance all those years ago

Ruben & the Jets is a masterpiece if you're a doo-wop fan imo. The degree of focus on getting all these regionally specific tics & quirks right is just incredible, every song's a different look. One of my favorite records by anybody really, it's just so dense & amazing

echoing what others have said: burnt weeny sandwich is great, shut up and play your guitar is great (it's all over the place too but there's a lot to like and it's one case where the "paste a 1980s instrumental onto a sketch from the 70s" approach actually yields some really interesting results), and sleep dirt is or was fantastic

"xp thanks, xiphoid! I'm a big fan of "Village Of The Sun" (my favorite jam on Roxy). I can't even imagine what it would have been like seeing Mahavishnu and Zappa on the same bill. I know Zappa hated almost everybody, but he and McLaughlin were mutual appreciators, right?"

not sure how much "mutual appreciation" was going on when zappa was going out there pulling out "cosmik debris" every night (i can see how people like it, but in the context of his live sets it's just _such_ a mood-killing tedious blues jam), but l. shankar did work with both of them.

"What's the summer 1973 official release called?"

i think it's got the exciting title of "road tapes #2: helsinki 23, 24 august 1973". not to be confused with "you can't do that on stage anymore vol. 2: the helsinki concert", which was recorded a year later and is also widely beloved.

"Oh, and I've never heard Shut Up & Play Your Guitar, but I'm intrigued by the one song with bozouki (sp?) accompaniment. I should track that one down."

canard du jour? yeah, that's a duet with ponty. it's really spectacular. when zappa deigned to actually jam with other musicians rather than telling them what to play the results are often very good! there's a nice acoustic jam of him and shuggie otis from 1970. i also like a post-show jam he did with warren cuccurullo in '78, and his '78 halloween duets with l. shankar are also quite fine- there's a really good version of "thirteen" from a soundboard tape of one of the halloween '78 shows.

"I have always really liked "Watermelon in Easter Hay." That one and "Inca Roads" were the tunes that originally made me wanna give Zappa a chance all those years ago"

the ensemble ambrosius version of "inca roads" is super, super good.

Also check out IMAGINARY DISEASES and the new LITTLE DOTS - they're both compilations from the Petit Wazoo tour of '72. Not wacky, mostly instrumental from what I remember (I haven't heard LITTLE DOTS yet and haven't played IMAGINARY DISEASES in far too long. The version of Reuben to get is GREASY LOVE SONGS - the Zappa family released in 2010 with the original mixes and extra material that is truly glorious. ROXY BY PROXY is more of the Roxy band with less of the bullshit. Worth a listen for the awesome "Inca Roads" alone. I like JAZZ FROM HELL a lot but it depends on how much you can handle the synclavier and stupid song titles like "G Spot Tornado".

There's an extended version of "Black Napkins" that's worth checking out on youtube. Frank edited about half of it out for ZOOT ALLURES and it's a damn shame.

Try Make a Jazz Noise Here by the late '80s band too. Mostly instrumental stuff from his final tour.

The full 10:40 "Black Napkins" from Osaka is definitely worth searching out and doing an A:B comparison to see where he edited it and shuffled bits, but I think FZ improved it enormously in the 4:15 album edit.

I like some of his 80s instrumental pieces that have this synthetic alien production quality to them such as Sinister Footwear II from Them Or Us, Envelopes from SATLTSADW, and Tink Walks Amok from Man From Utopia.

There's actually a bunch of bizarre instrumentation and production all over the Drowning Witch album

i loved it when it came out- really good version of "cruising for burgers" and "sinister footwear, 2nd movement" (yep, another instrumental with a stupid/wacky title), but god that thunes/wackerman rhythm section can be brutal to listen to.

i got a couple of pretty interesting versions of "black napkins" in my library. there's a really nice version from boston october '76, when bianca was still in the band (that recording, particularly the "you didn't try to call me", is also a really telling example of why, precisely, zappa couldn't keep any women in his band; don't expect an official release anytime soon but it's on youtube). the "halloween" release, while mostly featuring profoundly uninteresting material, includes the black napkins/deathless horsie closer from that marathon show. more shankar. there's also a rehearsal tape from a non-touring '75 group including novi novog on the "joe's camouflage" cd that's a good listen.

oh, if you want to talk alien production, there's the non-"porn wars" side of "meets the mothers of prevention". "alien orifice"! a gorgeous piece nobody ever listens to, probably in large part because it's called, well, "alien orifice". i have a nice string quartet version of that one by a group called "sonora".

Also check out IMAGINARY DISEASES and the new LITTLE DOTS - they're both compilations from the Petit Wazoo tour of '72.
― EZ Snappin, Sunday, November 27, 2016 9:32 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes, I remember reading about this tour (only a handful of shows in the fall of '72, right?) in one of the more excruciating Zappa books I leafed through, seems like I need to hear these

What's New In Baltimore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4uW5ujGUyk

Sofa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKiogA4nXoI

Yes, I remember reading about this tour (only a handful of shows in the fall of '72, right?) in one of the more excruciating Zappa books I leafed through, seems like I need to hear these

― Wimmels

two tours in fall '72 - a seven date tour with a 19-piece big band, and a subsequent longer us tour with an 11-piece band. the "petit wazoo" recordings are from the latter. there's also one recording, "wazoo", from the former.

Le Concert Impromptu - Prophetic Attitude (woodwind quintet)

I wasn't familiar with this one. Listening now, their "Strictly Genteel" is absolutely lovely, thanks!

I discovered that one via WFMU a few years ago – I think it was Dan Bodah's show.

this concert is ill. roxy band with ponty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKpd0l-O77U&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKpd0l-O77U

Would recommend Imaginary Diseases over Little Dots. The latter does have some annoying vocal passages, and musically there's far too much bluesy twiddly soloing - albeit with horn section.

Cruising with Ruben and the Jets is pretty much the antithesis of the thread title.

It's kind of both. The lyrics are not as misanthropic as the ones FZ would write later, and musical ideas like using a phrase from Le Sacre du Printemps as a doo-wop backing vocal passage ("Fountain of Love" outro) is pretty next-level and definitely put the album in his upper rank.

the thing i like about little dots is that the long pieces have the bluesy twiddly soloing cut off into separate tracks. so if you just listen to "part 1" of the long tracks there's some really good stuff there.

I've been binging on many of these recommendations, tough taking it all in at once but there's some GREAT stuff here. Good thread!

"Weasels Ripped My Flesh" is a good album if you like the free jazz/experimental/live side of Frank Zappa. It still has some songs, but they're not too cloying overall.

I've been 'looking' for Watermelon in Easter Hay for so long I'd basically forgotten I was looking. I can't even really remember where I first heard it, but there we are. Thanks thread. Anything else in that vein? I'm very much in the 'non-arch' camp. As it were.

Did Prince ever acknowledge a debt to Watermelon?

FZ studio (not live) guitar solos.

1. Sleep Dirt
2. RDNZL
3. Watermelon in Easter Hay

― WmC, Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:48 AM (seven years ago)

OK, I'm in deep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSgqfsiNmsk

Not sure how I objectively feel about this as "music" (new board description?) but I was reading about how Steve Vai transcribed the original Zappa solo note-for-note, and then played along with the one Zappa had already played (which you can still hear in the right channel). Not to be outdone, the percussionist (?) then transcribed the solo and played along in unison, turning what was really just an improvised solo into a very strange piece of 'composed' music.

Again, not sure yet if I like how it sounds, but this sort of creative approach to composition (see also "xenochrony," vertical chord stacking, etc) is very intriguing to me. Starting to understand what people love about this guy.

well if you like "cruising with ruben and the jets" your zappa tolerance is higher than most people's. hell, you'd probably like the opening and closing numbers on _burnt weeny sandwich_ too!

― xiphoid beetlebum (rushomancy), Sunday, November 27, 2016 8:26 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

verdict after listening: I do!

But I'm a sucker for mutant, slightly askew doo-wop dating back to discovering those early Sun Ra sides

I guess I'm realizing I like some wacky Zappa after all. I think, despite the thread title, I'm more put off by the "potty mouth" stuff than the truly experimental wackiness. I just don't share FZ's sense of humor, I guess (I'm a certified prude)

I'm with ya...I like the jokey tunes on his early records fine. It's stuff like "SHE WAS A TREE!!! A TREE!! AIYYIYIYIYIYIYIYII!!!! WA WA WA!!!" - or "SHE WHIZZES ON IT!! OH NO! OH LORD!!" that grates on me

I guess I'm realizing I like some wacky Zappa after all. I think, despite the thread title, I'm more put off by the "potty mouth" stuff than the truly experimental wackiness. I just don't share FZ's sense of humor, I guess (I'm a certified prude)

― Wimmels

not liking zappa's "humor" doesn't make you a prude. most of his "jokes" are both bad and creepy. that's the whole thing, he spends all this time going "IT'S FUNNY, WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING FUNNY?!?", except that it _isn't_. like most of these sorts, he couldn't take a joke- see his reaction to "frankie's in town", a pretty accurate piss-take of circa-1980 zappa.

Oh man. I'm no expert but most of this sounds dead-on to me. Thanks for this!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJPK35hChAk

Dude certainly nails the guitar sound at around 2:28 (which is a guitar sound I really love btw)

Lets´s see. In addition to what´s been mentioned above I´d like to add:

*Second half of "Ahead of Their Time" is (mostly) an instrumental Mothers-set from 1968.
*Disc 3 of "Lumpy Money" starts off with a 25-minute orchestral piece that´s interesting (Disc 1 has "Lumpy Gravy" without the dialogues. I prefer this version to the later version(s). Universal now distributes it and it´s cheap (for a 3 cd-set).
*QUADiophiliac (a now out-of-print DVD-A)/Wazoo/One Shot Deal all have instrumental stuff on it that´s good (all from the 1970s)
*Road Tapes 3 has some very good FZ guitar work. It´s a concert from 1970 with Flo & Eddie but they sound nothing like they do on later albums. Lots of "Hot Rats" echos here in the solos.
* There´s a cd from the Ensemble Modern that focuses on Zappa´s instrumental music.
* The Lost Episodes has some nice instrumental stuff on it (esp. the 10+ minute version of "Sharleena" with Don Harris, a Hot Rats sessions-outtake).
* A track called "Bognor Regis" (YouTube)
* The Artisan Acetate - (some) unreleased recordingings from the 60s.
* "Joe´s Camouflage" is the title of that garage-recording of a Zappa-band that never toured. Has some unreleased songs on it.

According to Joe Travers in the latest Zappa-podcast, there are unreleased studio recordings of Zappa´s Hot Rats-band in the vault...I'd love to hear that.

Would recommend Imaginary Diseases over Little Dots. The latter does have some annoying vocal passages, and musically there's far too much bluesy twiddly soloing - albeit with horn section.

― everything, Monday, November 28, 2016 2:38 PM (four days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, I hear this, but I really love the "Columbia, S.C." on here, and overall I like this recording. Still digesting Imaginary Diseases (I've been listening to nothing but Zappa since I started this thread), but my favorite new discovery is the Helsinki show rushomancy recommended upthread. Aside from a few silly bits (which I'm finding are more or less unavoidable in the Zappa corpus, with a few exceptions), this is what I want more of.

I've also discovered that I vastly prefer this period of the band over all the others I've heard. So fluid, funky, and fun.

Was a little disappointed in the "Village Of The Sun" from You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore, Vol 2, where it sounds like they are literally playing it at double speed. What was up with that??

apparently they played all their songs faster at that point because they had done them so many times that they just started cranking them out. I like some of the higher tempo takes on there, but it may just be because I heard that recording before Roxy