Taking Sides: August Darnell vs. David Johansen

Johansen's cleverness seems to have come in fits & starts, but when was was or is "on," his phrasings are hard to beat; Darnell's almost always on, but is much less flashy at his flashiest.

(PappaWheelie, what's yr take on Leroy Burgess?)

upper west side, flanking the hudson river from around 72nd way up to like inwood. residents are a mixture of extremely wealthy and middle-class people who lucked into rent-control apartments or soft real estate markets, but the address's sexiness dropped off sometime in the mid '80s i think... all the statusy young people have moved on to the hamptons.

I haven't super dug into his discography yet, but his work certainly represents much of the http://www.alldisco.net/ aesthetic. That and much of the P&P Disco stuff.

I need to sit down and take inventory of all the Burgess I have and put it all into context. I love everything of his that comes to mind at the moment.

But hey--AD's work with Cristina Monet is pretty brilliant! Mama Mia (while poorly mixed) is one of the campiest songs ever done. Just about every song on that album has some sort of campy brilliance. Amazing.

(even though it'll pretty much be half of mutant disco). but i'm soliciting your solicitations! here's what i have:

machine - there but for the grace of god
don armando's - deputy of love
a bunch of stuff from dr buzzard's
ditto kid creole
contort yourself
cristina - blame it on disco?
xmas on riverside drive

???

halp!

also why not "me no pop i" by coati mundi? that could fit on there, right?

and most of the *cory and me* album by cory daye (he must've been on that, right?)

kid creole musts: mister softee, dario, no fish today

"I'm a Beautiful Thing"
"Stool Pigeon"
Funkapolitan's "Run Run Run" and "As Time Goes By"

Now that I think about it one of Darnell's closest analogs as a lyricist is Morrissey! And Becker/Fagen obv.

thank you guys so much. this is really exciting!

(i know doing CDR80s might be a little outta style but i want to be able to distribute this among friends)

Rough guide indeed.

http://www.strut-records.com/kidcreole

It's sort of amazing what it leaves out and still remains 100 percent awesome.

oh fucking sweet

man I miss the days before lame-ass POLLS

you really need a box set.

no love for david jo? search his first solo album, destroy everything else. there's a live set from 78 that captures him at his post-dolls peak. it was a promo-only LP and then came out on CD in the 90s. "live at the bottom line" caveat: the band sounds young & enthusiastic but may be too "barband" for all u nu waverz.

Yea, David Jo's first solo album is great. Saw him on tour in 79 or 80 in DC. Stuck around to the end even though that meant I missed a bus and had to take a long cab ride home...

Been playing both Kid Creole's "No Fish Today" and David Jo's "Swaheto Woman" in my DJ sets lately.

Second David Johansen solo LP (In Style} > second Dr. Buzzard LP or second Kid Creole LP. Here Comes the Night and Live It Up (live album) are worth buying cheap copies of too, fwiw.

Don't have much use for David after that, but then it's not like August's held up over the last couple decades, either. (There's a real good disc called Going Places: The August Darnell Years 1974-1983 coming out on Strut this Spring, though -- strangely, under the name Kid Creole, though only a few of the tracks were originally released as Kid Creole tracks. Some kinda copyright issue, maybe?)

A link:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Going-Places-August-Darnell-1974-1982/dp/B0013UL4G0

Track listing:

1. Sunshower - Dr. Buzzard's Original Savannah Band
2. Goin' To A Showdown - Armando, Don Second Avenue Rumba Band
3. Going Places - Kid Creole & The Coconuts
4. Is That All There Is - Cristina (2)
5. On A Day Like Today - Gichy Dan's Beachwood No.9
6. There But For The Grace Of Good Go I - Machine (3)
7. I'm An Indian Too - Armando, Don Second Avenue Rumba Band
8. Marathon Runner - Aural Exciters
9. Pharaoh (Can't Take It To The Grave) - Coati Mundi
10. Emile (Night Rate) - Aural Exciters
11. He's Not Such A Bad Guy After All - Kid Creole & The Coconuts
12. Don't Play With My Emotions - Rogers, Ron
13. Double On Back - Kid Creole & The Coconuts
14. Paradise - Aural Exciters
15. Off The Coast For Me - Kid Creole & The Coconuts

I don't know about that tracklisting.

I think clearly some sort of statement's being made by leaving off almost all his "hits," as it were.

yeah but "Double on Back," what a great song.

I have no major problem with the track listing. Doesn't claim to be "definitive"; just a real listenable collection of tracks that mostly might otherwise have fallen through the cracks, a few of which I hadn't heard before. (My two favorite early Kid Creole songs -- "Darrio" and "Mister Softee" -- are left off, as are Dr. Buzzard's two biggest hits. But yeah, maybe that's part of the point?)

(Oops, hadn't noticed until now that Eric H. had revived this thread with a link to the Strut set. Sorry about the redundancy. But maybe more people will notice it now.)

Can't be plugged enough, imo.

It's incredibly difficult to find copies of the DavidJo albums 'round these parts. I need to hear the first one.

here's my august darnell playlist / mixtape i use to evangelize:

i'll play the fool - dr buzzards
there but for the grace of god - machine
mister softee - kid creole
cherchez la femme - dr buzzards
i'm an indian too - armando's 2nd etc
contort yourself - james white
xmas on riverside drive - august darnell
que pasa / me no pop i - coati mundi
cowboys & gangsters - gichi dan
spooks in space - aural exciters
a night in new york - elbow jones
annie i'm not yr daddy - kid creole
hard times - dr buzzards
is that all there is - cristina

i didnt want to overload it with dr buzzards tracks but maybe i should have put sunshowers on their just for the record?

Actually, third Johasen solo album is iffier than I suggest a few posts up. Here's what I wrote about it on the Rolling Metal thread last year:

I like the somewhat AC/DC-style hard rock riff in "She Loves Strangers," first song on the third David Johansen solo album, which just got reissued on American Beat Records, and the second song "Bohemian Love Pad" is fun, but after that the album goes way downhill, especially compared to his first two solo albums, both of which I've always liked a lot. He's trying to do rock-disco and reggae and Latin stuff ("Marquesa De Sade" is a blatant attempt at the latter, with a lyric that Prince might've written in his sleep) and a soul ballad ("Heart Of Gold"), but unlike on In Style (which was '79; this album's '81), he seems too lazy to come up with actual songs to pull the eclecticism off. Reminds of maybe some lame '80s Iggy or Mick Jagger solo album or something. Christgau gave it an A- after giving In Style a B+, which I find perplexing. (Hardcore Dolls fans, though, might just want to stick to the '78 solo debut, if even that. The '82 live LP Live It Up was good, though.)

However, in the showdown of showdowns (surprised nobody has done this yet): New York Dolls "(There's Gonna Be A) Showdown" >>>> Don Armando's Second Avenue Rumba Band "Going To A Showdown"

I dunno. The use of the latter in Maniac tips the scales for me.

The Joe Spinell one? I've long wanted to check it out again to see if it's as great as The Driller Killer. With Don Armando on the soundtrack, it just might be.

we were talking about that strut comp here a bit, too

Oh yeah! I was wondering on what thread I saw the comp pic.

I think one of the reasons why David Jo isn't getting equal amounts of love on here is that his lyrics have always been difficult to make out under the roar of the subway train. And trust me - I tried for years to discern them, from consulting cheesy sheet music editions ("now with all the crossing fate (???) that Mother Nature sends") to websites that are wrong to this day ("now with all ing for some fragrant mother nature's sends" - yes, that is an exact cut and paste from a currently operative website). But as with Exile, I eventually decided that few, if any, lyrics could make one of the greatest album of the 1970s (with In Too Much Too Soon eternally perched as THE greatest) much greater and they might even make it (just a smidgen) worse. Besides, I'm not sure a lyric sheet is the best way to appreciate David's lyrics which evince a stronger gift for the campy aside than the extended précis, a gift one one can glean anyway from out of the roar.

By contrast, almost every Darnell production included a lyric sheet. Even without one, though, I suspect Darnell's numbers in search of a (coherent) Broadway show are simply flat-out wittier than David's feeling for human beings. Wit as it's traditionally conceived, that is - as something suitable for cognac-assisted concentration in the parlor room. I bet street-walkin' David Jo's esprit de l'escalier could outstrip Darnell's if they encountered one another (have they ever?), with David firing off one final devastating zinger as he flits out of the room.

And no mention has been made of either as singers. Darnell's voice served his material well and no more. David Jo's instrument was much richer, full of questions, recriminations, impersonations, parodies, personality crises, and quotes from his record collection. Plus his many intros, outros, re-intros, etc. contain sample-like novelty.

But Darnell had Cory Daye whose enormous music intelligence went down to the syllable. Check out the "poo" in "Kickapoo" and the "those" in "like those Indians" in the last chorus of "I'm An Indian Too." They're like micro-operas! The woman's cutting Judy Garland here, folks!

But David had Johnny Thunders whose vocal on "Chatterbox" just might be the Dolls' best. His final "chatterBOX!" ended the world a helluva more decisively than punk 1977.

So I guess David Jo for me. But shame on JBR for making us choose!

And Dan Selzer, what problem do you have with the track listing?

It's missing a lot of my favorite songs. Were they left off because of a technical reason, like he wrote these and not the others? Or were the omitted too popular/compiled too often? I hadn't noticed they left off the "hits" as I didn't notice some of these weren't as well known (like I'm an Indian vs. Deputy of Love). I also assumed it included There But for the Grace of God Go I, but I notice now it says "Good". I'm not familiar with that, is that a different song? Emile is great. I would've loved to see the Kid Creole version of There But for the Grace of God Go I.

Yeah but it's nowhere near as good as the god-like Machine version.

I also assumed it included There But for the Grace of God Go I, but I notice now it says "Good". I'm not familiar with that, is that a different song?

LOL. I think that's a typo.

and there's my confusion...if it is "God" then there's a major reason why I wouldn't assume they were picking stuff that fell through the cracks as that seems to be pretty mega-classic to me.

And what's with the Cristina? I always heard the story that Lieber and Stoller sued the hell out of Ze for that and the song would be history...

why not just buy the Ze Mutant Disco comps?

I think it's "with all the cards of fate that Mother Nature sends." Or maybe "all the kinds of fate"?

At an in-store, I asked Johansen what the third line of Personality Crisis is -- the one that almost but not quite sounds like "hoping for a better day to hear what she's gotta say." Turns out it's: "Hoping for her that some day, they hear what she's gotta say." Their guitarist Steve Conte seemed shocked to learn that that's what he's saying.

it's nowhere near as good as the god-like Machine version

I agree with this, by the way. (And yeah, the Machine version -- God not Good -- in on the Strut CD. And I get what Dan's saying it being being not-obscure, not that that bugs me. Has it been compiled on a Darnell collection before? Maybe the point of including it is that, even if it's well-known to disco fans, maybe it's less so to Kid Creole fans? Who knows.) (By the way, I've got the 1980 Machine LP Moving On, on RCA, on vinyl; what are people's thoughts about that one? Doesn't look like Darnell was very actively involved in it -- he doesn't get any songwriting or production credits, though supposedly "all rhythm tracks were supervised" by him.) (Though that's more credit than he gets on Cory Daye's 1979 Cory and Me LP, which would be my favorite Darnell album if he was actually on it. That he's not means...something.)

I've never heard the Mutant Disco CDs; still have Seize The Beat (which was what the orignal compilation was called in the U.S.) and A Christmas Record on vinyl. They're still great, obviously (though neither is entirely Darnell of course), but the Strut set still seems fine to me; I'm judging it by what's there, not what could be. (Then again, I think the Disco Not Disco comp that Strut put out this year is really great, too, and I saw an ILM thread with people nitpicking its tracklist to death, which made even less sense.)

It's never occurred to me that the Dolls lyrics I have trouble making out ("Jet Boy": "we were all endangered zone when we're having fun"?) should make me like those albums less than I do, and I avoid reading lyric sheets -- August Darnell's included -- whenever I can get away with it. But I don't know, maybe Kevin's right about some people preferring August for his words. I still don't think his lyrics can match the lyrics on those Dolls albums, though. And right, Johansen is a way better singer (and the Dolls were at least as great a dance band as Dr. Buzzard's Original Savannah Band or Kid Creole and the Coconuts, as far as I'm concerned.)

I would've loved to see the Kid Creole version of There But for the Grace of God Go I.

How hard is this to find these days, just out of curiosity? I've got it on a 7-inch, but it wasn't orginally on any of Kid Creole's albums, was it? (The 12-inch version was included as a bonus track on a CD reissue of Off The Coast of Me that came out on Rainman in 2003, but my copy of the CD has a cover so poorly produced it almost looks like a bad color Xerox for a CD-R, so I've always had suspicions about that reissue's legitimacy, and I suspect it wasn't all that efficiently distributed.) (Rainman does seem like a legitimate enough label, though -- they put out new Blue Cheer and Alvin Lee albums last year! -- so maybe I'm totally off base.)

Disco Not Disco >>>> Mutant Disco

there's a vinyl compilation called Dance Ze Dance circa 1981 that I recall as better selected than the Mutant comps. the selection on disco/not is fantastic, lotsa of stuff I didn't know the name or had never heard.

gotta admit the kid creole records haven't aged well for me at all. too high-concept or something.

Was (Not Was), "Wheel Me Out" >>>> everything else on at least the first volume of Mutant Disco.

there's a vinyl compilation called Dance Ze Dance circa 1981

Yeah, that's the one I called Seize The Beat a few posts up; the actual title on the label says Seize The Beat (Dance Ze Dance). In the UK in '81 a similar but slightly different vinyl comp came out called Mutant Disco, but I've never heard it; I assume the latter was expanded in to the CDs later? (Do they also contain tracks from A Christmas Record? Or are those long gone by now?)

Kid Creole's LPs were definitely concept albums, at least after the first and best one. And yeah, that made them seem tedious to me at the time, too (which is probably why I bought "No Fish Today" as a 45.)

The Kid Creole version of There But for the Grace seems pretty rare...I've never seen the vinyl. I also never said or implied that it was better then the Machine version...they are extremely different, which is what makes the Kid Creole version so interesting. The first time I heard it a friend played it very lout when we were DJing together and it blew me away.

TS: Fresh Fruit In Foreign Places vs. Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables

The Kid Creole version of There But for the Grace seems pretty rare...I've never seen the vinyl

http://www.net3-tv.net/~woo-ze/kccoconuts.htm

Looks like there's a bunch of different vinyl configuations of it, though. (The one I have is the Ze 7-inch from 1981-- a "live" version of "There But For the Grace Of God Go I" on the "Z side" and "He's Not Such a Bad Guy (After All)" on the "E side.")

I think it's "with all the cards of fate that Mother Nature sends."

That makes the most sense even though it doesn't sound like he's actually saying that. He better write these down before he forgets them himself seeing as how not even his band members know what the hell he's singing.

It's never occurred to me that the Dolls lyrics I have trouble making out...should make me like those albums less than I do

Well, it works both ways. Imagine discovering that "Jet Boy" includes an insightful analysis of Foucault's
Les mots et les choses. I'd learn how to do cartwheels and I just KNOW you'd love it even more, xhuxk!

I've never seen the vinyl. I also never said or implied that it was better then the Machine version

No, you pretty much implied it. J/k. I was just agreeing with the Strut choices.

The Kid Creole version of There But for the Grace seems pretty rare

it is indeed. I have the Antilles 12" with no picture sleeve. I don't recall finding it in the bins so I must have purchased it via mail order.

TS: Fresh Fruit In Foreign Places vs. Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables

Definitely the former although I retain shreds of affection for the DKs.

i've seen a ton of the creole 12" version of "there but for the grace" and passed on it every time, it isnt a patch on the ass of the machine one. i love august darnell, he is one of my favorite artists. he had a role in michel gondry's recent "be kind rewind" which was unexpected, but it makes sense considering his aesthetic.

It's incredibly difficult to find copies of the DavidJo albums 'round these parts. I need to hear the first one.

I hope you made good on this. I hadn't listened to it in years and then we were talking about it a week or two back so I replaced my copy that's still back in California, and it came in the mail earlier this week and wow. Just wow. Such a wonderful album.

I only just found out August Darnielle (ok, it's Darnell really), isn't his real name either!

I would've loved to see the Kid Creole version of There But for the Grace of God Go I.

How hard is this to find these days, just out of curiosity? I've got it on a 7-inch, but it wasn't orginally on any of Kid Creole's albums, was it?

It was on:
Free 7" single w/ Off the coast of me, w/ "He's not such a bad guy", Yellow "taxi" style label
NME Cassette
Free 7" single w/ 7" of "Stool Pigeon", same as the other 7" but with green "Z" label

I have all three, so it never seemed all that rare to me.

Of course I'm a sucker for this kind of eighties compromise between synths and sleaze, but, man, he's such a compelling singer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riyFR3hJTyo

this thread is exhibit A in the case against poll threads

and exhibit B in the case for David Johansen's first solo album.

You’re credited for really revitalizing the lounge-singer format, but today it seems more popular than ever. Does that make you feel like you need to find a new frontier in your work?

No, it doesn't make me feel like I need to do that, but if something occurred to me and I liked it, I would pursue it. Lately I’m thinking about a dance-band kind of a thing. I have this friend, Jonathan Toubin [of New York Night Train], he’s a disc jockey. Sometimes he’ll have guest disc jockeys at his dances. I’ll go to Brooklyn Bowl and play records with him, and I love the way that everyone is dancing. There’s a certain type of music that he plays that are B-sides of '60s boogaloo records or whatever they are, and I was thinking, It would be great to play this music live and have people dancing, because most of the time when you play you just stand there and have people look at you. People used to dance at the Dolls shows. Dancing is so good for you, spiritually, physically, and mentally.

http://www.vulture.com/2016/01/David-Johansen-buster-poindexter-cafe-carlyle.html

A list. So many good songs and productions!

Coati Mundi "Me No Pop I" is great. I wonder if Darnell wrote that one?

No room there for Did You Have To Love Me Like You Did by The Coconuts? Great groove and lyrics - about the pitfalls of following through on bi-curiosity?

I remember watching the Carson show when this happened

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EalIXbQsLCA

I watched that clip on Saturday before posting my list.

always thought David Jo was hot as fuck

I first became aware of him circa '79 when he would lipsync his latest single on New Jersey's beloved UHF kiddie semi-parody The Uncle Floyd Show, on which he would grin and say "It's maaaahvelous to be here, Uncle Floyd" in his Staten Island croak.