Throwing Muses: C-o-D

Best track: "Fish" off the LONELY IS AN EYESORE 4AD compilation (the title of the album is a lyrical swipe from said tune as well).

As far as Hersh herself is considered, I haven't really liked much after Hips and Makers. She remains a unique lyricist, but the music seems so tame and normal in comparison. I'd hate to suggest -- a la Erica Jong -- that the decline is a result of positive lifestyle developments. You have to admit she isn't as fiery or great as she once was.

As far as Hersh the mother is considered, I'm normally irritated by couples who opt to overpopulate the planet with a big litter of offspring. Hersh is an exception to this -- the more of her genes floating around the better.

Had she kicked it by the end of the '80s, I agree she'd be quite the cult. Probably just above the level of Mary Margaret O'Hara (who is still alive, actually).

"Mexican Women" off House Tornado still spooks me. The line about running over the hill to tear off skin and eat it up comes to mind.

I used to whole-heartedly adore _Hips & Makers_, but soon found it to be a bit too samey. The same with _Strange Angels_ - both albums have amazing songs, though. It just seems that there's always that song (or two of those songs) that sabotage the pacing. _Sky Motel_ sounds like a return to her Throwing Muses days, but is a bit lackluster (again, with some gems in the rough). Those In The Know say that _Sunny Border Blue_ is her best yet. But they always say that.

I still like the first album just fine, though they drifted on material between that album and Ramona. For the later material, I like Limbo okay, but I much prefer University, which is chilling and slinky at the same time. (I'm convinced that after the disastrously ugly Red Heaven, Hersh took some time to learn restraint again, with the great Hips and Makes album, and then took those lessons back to the band format for University.) So. Classic.

'Ramona' also marked the last Muses lp with Tanya Donelly...

Don't agree about Red Heaven - side one, possibly best TM ever. Will expand tomorrow.

Another classic - "University" - contains best TM track "Bright yellow gun". That drumming!

Duds - Hunkpapa, Fat Skier, most of debut, side 2 of House Tornado.

Anyhow, absolute classic. Probably my favourite band ever. House Tornado and The Real Ramona are the peaks but I also love the first album, Fat Skier and Chains Changed unreservedly. I reckon they had a bit of a slump after Tanya left, as one of their main attractions for me was the interplay between the two guitars and voices, but University is still a fine album. Hunkpapa is the only serious misstep, with all its filler and mistaken attempts at going pop. Hips and Makers is also great but the last couple of Hersh solo albums have been a bit weak.

It's not as *finished* as The Real Ramona or University, but probably the one I'd say best defines what TM are *about*. It's a type of album I like - sort of like a Scooby album, but not quite. Can't think of a neat way to describe it, but these albums are usually seen as a move in a different direction, often a slightly wrong move (not a total disaster though), and polarise opinion like crazy. They're the kind of album I seek out. Other examples : "Brotherhood" , "Monster", "Punch the Clock".

I'd put them on a classic/sacred cow status equal to that of "The Smiths" (not the Smiths the band necessarily, but The Smiths, the Legend). In fact, for many of the same reasons-

First off, stunning and original guitarwork and musicianship (the hypnotic drums, especially the use of rolls for texture has only ever been matched by Echo & the Bunnymen)

Second, the interplay between two very powerful yet opposed figures (Ver Muses, however, managed to hold fast to their musical ideals even after the figures parted, as evidenced by the quality of the solo work)

Third, because no one has ever managed to quite penetrate and articulate the exact dimensions of the adolescent female mind in quite the same way. ("Delicate Cutters") In fact, probably *all* of the female experience- motherhood, madness, marriage, adulthood- without ever being cloyingly sentimental or insipid, or verving into the other extreme of being overly feminazi. Hersch simply *is* female, and she expresses it perfectly, not as an afterthought or a gimmick.

Standouts for me are:

The self titled album. I can no longer actually listen to this album, because it expressed and encapsulated so perfectly a time in my life that I would rather forget. It's not a fault of the album that I can no longer listen to it, but rather shows the POWER of it.

The Real Ramona. The two sisters at their most balanced, their most equal in power and songwriting ability, and of course, the band could not survive in that form. Also the most pop, and probably the most easily listenable of the albums.

Hips and Makers. Hersch wandering around the big, empty, spooky house of finally being a proper grown-up and wondering what to do with all the space. Never did anything so sparse sound so lush.

The distinction I make here also has a slightly bogus look. I haven't expressed it too well. But I suppose my point is: there is no difference, really - at least *in this particular context* - between the Smiths (the great pop group who changed so many of our lives) and "The Smiths" ("the great pop group who changed so many of our lives").

The Smiths (the band) = either "they saved my angsty teenage life" or "miserable whinging git Morrosey and his Elvis-ripping off henchmen" while The Smiths (the legend) = greatest British band since the Beatles, etc. etc. etc. and all the dissecting of the legend and the personalitys that shaped it and so on.

I was comparing TM to the legend, in terms of their status as giants of music.

Did I say "their"?

What you say above is eloquent and admirable. I wonder if one day you will be able to convince me of it. And I wonder what it would take.

I "heart" you, Stevie.

The physical - yes. "House Tornado" - yes (it made no sense to me and I ignored the tape for weeks; it made sense somewhere near the perimeter of an MoD firing range on Formby beach, late summer '89, wind whipping sand into my headphones).

The most excited I've ever been at a gig - Muses, Trent Poly, Feb '91. The most excited I've ever been about a forthcoming release - "The Real Ramona", Feb '91. The most disappointed I've ever been by an eagerly-awaited release - "Red Heaven", Aug '92.

Right - come on, Roger...

It must seem unreasonable of me to nitpick away at it like this. I'm not trying to say they're a Dud. I just don't quite see the Classic bit, either, on the whole.

"Not Too Soon" sounds totally out of place on _The Real Ramona_. It sticks out like a polished diamond in a pile of tarnished silver dollars. And it's Tanya's best TM offering, by a wide country hectare.

And it's funny that someone (Sean) thinks that _Hips & Makers_ is a back-to-basics move. I felt the same way, but I think that _University_ was actually recorded BEFORE _Hips & Makers_. I forget where I heard that, but I used that information (& that theory) as the foundation for my breathless praise of _Limbo_ on my site.

I can't remember the thread where this discussion took place.

BUT all I was really looking for from our Scouse friends was a (favourable) description which was a little bit 'closer to the music'. Stevie's stuff about Camille Paglia is great - but it's great cos Stevie is great, not (I submit) because TH are great (and CERTAINLY not cos Camille Paglia is great; heaven forfend).

I appreciate that the desire for a description which is 'closer to the music' might be another chimera - another senseless request which our Scouse friends will find it impossible to fulfil. At the end of the day (Clive), I have a feeling that they are talking as much about themselves as about TM - who (I suspect) were very important to them at a certain time in their lives and have thus made a kind of emotional imprint that they can't really explain. That is not a criticism - it might be the best reason for loving a bit of pop music (I think it's my usual reason). It's just that it's not very 'transferrable'. I can appreciate that TM meant something to little Stevie T when he was a wee boy writing vast dissertations for Christopher Bigsby - but I can't hear that in their records. (Or can I?)

You have clearly forgotten the early 90s, when every band from Suede to Blur was described as "The Best British Band Since The Smiths". That's legendeering on a scale with the B**tles.

Back on TM again, yesterday afternoon at the HMV mega-sale, I actually went and bought a copy of House Tornado and Fat Skiier on CD to replace vinyl back in storage. Damn ILM for influencing my record buying habits!!! Second time this week!

Wrong again.

I have not forgotten the early 90s. At least, not totally. I wish I could remember them a little more vividly than I do - but really, that's another thread entirely.

Your argument now seems to be that because some media people in the early 90s implied that the Smiths were a great band, they're not really a great band - that was just all Legend stuff. Whereas (you asserted above) talking about 'That Miserable Git Morrissey' is not Legend-peddling, but is simply the rough, unvarnished Truth.

From my POV (which as ever is not anyone else's POV), the Smiths are perhaps the greatest British band after the Beatles. Put it another way: they are perhaps the most important band to me ever. This is not much to do with constructing Legends; it's just the way I feel about this band. (I don't ask anyone else to share this feeling.)

I fear that what this 'debate' comes down to is that you don't like the Smiths much, and I do. Fear not, I have no desire to make you like them more.

But that does not stop them from having a "Legend" which has far overtaken either their music or their lasting influence. You are just unable to see them because your devotion outweighs your rationality.

If some people/lots of people/everyone except me/no-one thinks a particular artist is the best ever it couldn't possibly change the way that I think by itself. (However,weight of opinion might suggest that I have another listen and I COULD have been wrong all along : "Loveless". That's different.)

Masonic Boom: disappointed by your resort to cheap abuse. I maintain that you are mistaken and your distinction is, in this instance, utterly BOGUS. BUT you were right about one thing earlier: this is the Muses thread and we ought to be discussing them.

Totally sublime, forgive-them-anything-for-that Throwing Muses moment which Scouse worshippers at shrine of Hersh have not mentioned (perhaps don't like?): TWO STEP.

Sean Carruthers - Yes it rocks, but thats not its why it holds its own. Yes, maybe they did have something to prove and in my mind they did. The Real Ramona was a great album, but a follow-on would've been impossible. With Donelly onboard, it could've easily turned out to be little more than sugar-coated pop dross. Not that I dislike Donelly's post-Muses ventures, its just that I think another Ramona would've involved too many compromises. Tanya and Kristin were obviously going in different directions.

I agree with Dr C. - Red Heaven is a classic album. Its raw and fresh, like one of them just said "well its just me and you now, lets get down to it". Red Heaven really conveys a sense of rapport, especially Rosetta Stone. Kristin seems to hit upon something that transcends the 'bit'iness of some of their previous outings. To me, it appears as if she finally managed to give all her ambivalence a face of its own. Red Heaven has a very rich character, indeed. If they were attempting to reinstate a more personal and intimate sense of identity, then I think they certainly achieved it.

Given the choice between:-

a) a "chilling and slinky" male fantasy involving Kristin Hersh, ice cream and a black negligee.

and

b) the opportunity to ride along with someone blowing out the cobwebs during a transitional phase in their life.

... I would take the latter ;)

I definitely wouldn't say that you're only familiar with the "dud album", Dyson. From what I've heard of her discography it sounds like Hersh started with her most apocalyptic (or grating, depending on your tastes) work and then gradually mellowed, while remaining off-kilter and "in touch with her emotions". I'd certainly give the older stuff a try, but it's pretty up in the air what you'll prefer. I'm not sure myself, but my girlfriend would vote for "The Real Ramona" as her fave.

Yes! The 2003 s/t is maybe my favourite album of theirs since Leslie left. The rest of the power trio era is too shiny but this is the right kind of heavy and sunburnt raw. It feels like a drawn-out fight on one long too-hot afternoon. I find it hard to tell the songs apart but I get little sticky bitchy lines from them in my head all the time: "Here's a big fat aspirin, maybe you'll choke - that's not funny." "I don't like you any more than you know, I still like you too much." "I think your nose is broken, but you mouth is working." She's such a great writer and I think that gets kind of lost in the interpretations (hers too) of so much of her work as instinctive.

It's a shame this album seems to have slipped out of view, I feel like I never see Hersh talking about this time or any of these songs. I wonder if they are a snapshot of a period in her previous marriage she wouldn't want to go back to.

on a related note, her recent cover of "Like A Hurricane" totally rules

perfect description, verhexen!

also I mis-hear the chorus of “Pandora’s Box” as “milk-fed shithead” which is an insult I treasure; the real lines “your milk-fed shaved head / you move like an insect” are fantastic too

was Tanya Donelly's "The Party" ever released anywhere except the the Muses debut 7"? doesn't seem like it...

nope, nor adapted into anything else that I know of

A boy was tangled in his bike forever
A girl was missing two fingers
Gerry Ann was confused
Mr. Huberty had a gun in his head
So I sit up late in the morning and ask myself again
How do they kill children?
And why do I want to die?

written at age 18 iirc, just amazing

incredible song. love that album so much

all time opening couplet

"I could be a smack freak
and hate society
I could hate God
and blame dad"

Just an astounding song. The emotional power blows you away. Such an incredible band.

A shout out to Leslie Langston’s bass play on the early albums as well. Such melodic lines.

I think she's a senior social worker in MA these days!
Yep: https://medical.mit.edu/find-a-provider/leslie-langston
Extraordinary player, fully half the appeal of the Muses' early records to me.

That’s awesome.

I watched some of those YouTube videos where the video maker plays along with records on his bass, and the guy tackled a couple of early Muses songs. Ofc it was fun to hear the bassline brought out front, but also: iirc he freely admitted it was a bit puzzling and hard, and LL came along in the comment field going something like "hi! the reason that bit doesn't quite work is because you need to use the thumb from the top of the fretboard at the same time you see". This was couple of years ago or something?

Ha, that’s excellent. Just a natural, free-floating coolness to these guys.

In the mid 90s I interviewed them for a no-circulation music zine - in Australia - and when they toured they invited me and a friend to the band room after, gave us drinks and cigarettes, Bernie showed me how to open a bottle using another bottle … it was a blast and they were such nice folks. K was a bit reserved after delivering a huge show but I probably would have passed out if I’d talked to her.

Fun fact: I played "Hate My Way" for my family on or about Xmas day, from my phone. In boring moments we've developed a game where one nominates "the best song ever", choosing something fresh each time. This might have been the first time there were demands that such a selection be turned off lol.

jesus christ I told my same little fan boy story twice in the same thread, wow cool guy

I love K. Hersh pretty much across the board. Saw her a couple years ago with Bob Mould and she remains a compelling presence.

For Muses particularly, of course yes to University ("Bright Yellow Gun" already mentioned upthread) but for many persons of my age and class and temperament, there is an iconic scene in Empire Records set to the song "Snakeface." It is a memorable one.

all time opening couplet

"I could be a smack freak
and hate society
I could hate God
and blame dad"

the next song's opening line is right up there too.

"He won't ride in
Cars anymore
It reminds him of
Blowjobs"

xp I've also thought "Hate My Way" is the "best song ever" at times, but it's definitely something that would freak out normies.

I think Limbo is their best album after the debut. It's always been underrated coming after University, made worse by its absence from streaming due to being on Ryko. It has my favorite rhythm guitar tone ever-- shimmery, surfy, just perfect

My dad brought Limbo home to me from a work trip to Chicago (we lived in Norway) when I was 12, after an older cousin had bought University for my birthday the year before. Those records (as well as Doolittle, which the same cousin bought me for Xmas the same year) rewired my brain.

My college station played "Bright Yellow Gun" a few times in early '95 (approximately as much as they played Belly's "Seal My Fate"), but it's hard to tell what their profile was like. Was University a thing in alterna-music circles?

J. Sam otm re the guitars on Limbo. The solo on The Field, god yes.

Was University a thing in alterna-music circles?

It certainly was in the Boston area, lots of play on WFNX.

seems like it got a decent promotional push — makes sense since Belly and the Breeders had broken through to some extent. i saw a pretty under-attended show on the University tour though.

University came right after Belly/Breeders for me and was just what I needed. I vividly remember the big Rolling Stone story on Throwing Muses, with its, uh, provocative photos (that few magazines would dare to stage now).

I miss the all-consuming fervour I used to feel for this band

The go listen to their entire catalog in a row, it'll reignite it.

I found Red Heaven in a pawn shop and tried it because I knew there was some connection to Belly, who I was a big fan of. “Pearl” won me over big time.

It's a great song. I recommend their 2003 self-title for more of that giant-wave vibe.

Limbo is the last one that I spent time with, but I don't remember a lot of it. University was the big one for me, and the first one. I had a shirt with a bright yellow gun on it which I probably wouldn't wear today.

Saw Kristin and Vic Chesnutt in Atlanta. If I remember right, they both had acoustic guitars and would go back and forth, trading songs. Very, very good.

I had the same shirt and thoughtlessly put it on a few days after the Port Arthur gun massacre (which was near my city). Had to retreat into a bathroom and flip it inside out when I realised the looks were not from Throwing Muses fans.

So I sit up late in the morning
And ask myself again
How do they kill children?
And why do I wanna die?
They can no longer move
I can no longer be still

^chills down the spine at that part

am down with a Throwing Muses listening thread

yes please

I don't know if the "Mr. Huberty" reference in "Hate My Way" is common knowledge (I only learned about it a few years ago), but he's the man responsible for a 1984 mass shooting at a McDonald's in California:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre
This song still rattles me every time I listen to it, after 30+ years...

Matt I think I was at that 94 show too - there was merch that I recall was a tomato or apple on the front of the tshirt? And I was mad I couldnt buy one cos I hadn't brought any extra money with me (which seems bonkers but in those days I didnt drink).

I also have the red bright yello gun tshirt ha.

hi guys, this revive made me dig out my old external drive so i could hear limbo again. thank you for the discussion and reminder of this masterpiece! it's such a monolithic album of 90s indie-ness and every goddamn song is arranged so incredibly perfect. it rocks out, it does ballads, classic jangly chamber pop, and a whole lot of heart. the way a lot of the songs just drop and change direction is so disorienting and exhilarating —— i could kiss you for remembering my address for crying out loud. i know i talk a big mess about the first album being kristin's definitive statement (and i probably will ride with that in the end); but if that album was unrefined, unfiltered, unadulterated chaotic kristin, limbo is all of those things polished over and made to be the best versions of themselves. i used to ride hard for "tar kissers" and swore up and down that was the pinnacle of this era. but listening now, i have at least 5 tracks that i could see saying the same exact thing about (and none of them are "tar kissers" — though that one still smashes). i was wanting to pick a song to put on my radio station playlist, but i can't narrow it down further than half of the damn album! is limbo her best work? dunno, but it sounds better than ever.

(and it has one of the prettiest/best hidden tracks ever with "white bikini sand")

i had some extras saved on that drive and i wanted to play you guys the demo of "serene" (retitled here "serene swing") so i had to upload it to youtube—
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c94BhagMCP4

i guess if forced to pick a single favorite track right now, it's definitely "serene." the original album version is pretty nice chamber pop and one of the album's calmest moments. "serene swing" though — !!?!?! clattering and just the complete opposite of everything about the finished version. really dig the crazy horse vibes. this fucking woman. what an absolute titan.

i have not the language to convey what i'm saying here so i'm just going to spit—

that transition from "shark" to "white bikini sand" just has something so entirely period specific to it. like there's certain media or technology that we sometimes say, "well that could have only worked in the (time period)." and i think about that transition "shark" is ultimately a rewarding song, but it's noisy, kind of dissonant. it ends on a long fadeout, an unsure coda. then "white bikini sand" comes in and is nothing but steady pleasant vibes. and it works so perfectly that the only cliche i can come up with is that it only would worked in the 90s.

I love Limbo too, it hit hard after a run of slightly diminishing, more cluttered albums and they came back ripped and focused as a trio. Everything about this record is a reinvention, down to the artwork, and I fell in love with them all over. Favourite is probably the title track, so apocalyptic and off-kilter, but it's ALL gold. Also loved the fast version of Teller they played on the tour.

slightly disappointed that, of all the times i've seen kristin in all of her various roles, they've never played anything from limbo.

Ignore my stupidity, of course University was a trio album as well, but Limbo was much gnarlier and more muscular.

def feels like a lost album these days (so does the kind of contemporaneous bob mould self titled album on ryko)

also hi again, sorry for tangent--

if you like the more orchestrated, multi-parted beach boys-esque turns mid song, and more of kristin's wry, yowling narratives and you've never dug into her albums sky motel and sunny border blue, do yourself a favor and visit/revisit. it's almost like an epic spiritual trilogy in hindsight -- that was basically her trajectory from 96-02: limbo-> sky motel-> sunny border blue. each album gets a bit more reflective and rootsy until sunny border blue contains a few songs about her old band and ends with pure catharsis on "listerine." gives me chills just thinking about it. anyway, yeah: those albums maybe don't ROCK as hard, but are definitely part of the same universe as limbo. highly recommended.

jeez she has a new album and I didn't even know

(Clear Pond Road released on May 30th)