At precisely what hour of what day in what year did _Appetite for Destruction_ become a hip cultural reference point?

"fetishing" = "fetishIZing"

The hour of the day that "Welcome to to the Jungle" premiered on Headbanger's Ball, I reckon.

I can't remember a time when it wasn't thought of as a classic album - it became *the* token metal album, like 'Nation Of Millions' did for hip-hop. So I can't work out the question - are you saying it *shouldn't* be?

I guess I mean "hip" in the sense that people who'd never seriously listen to metal suddenly seem to have this weird serious regard for the album, like when grunge wiped out the hairbands, or whatever (I've been watching VH1), these people wouldn't have been caught dead in a GnR t-shirt. No scenester record shops would've been playing it. Now it lines right up w/ _Nevermind_ in a lot of people's minds.

I'm not particularly opposed to this, it's just a cultural dynamic I've observed and am wondering about. Sure, it's a classic metal album, but when has metal ever received any critical kudos or hipster love? Am I off base here, or have others noticed this too?

Note: "hip" is only a part of my physiology, not my personal identity. I have never been considered hip, tho I have two of them.

Oh right, OK - I was talking from a UK perspective anyway.

OK then actual answer - something to do with nu metal? A response like "hey, our metal was better"?

that would seem to be the most likely response. however, i disagree, i think it has been a hip reference in the uk since about 96

I second the "testosterone revival" thesis. People are simply growing weary of sissy bands. The whole indie scene, at least in the uk, seems to revolve around a certain "pop noir" flavour. Everyone sounds melancholy, sad, disenchanted... As for the charts... ready-made pop, watered-down alternative rock, bah, no wonder Guns 'n' Roses are becoming hip again :-)

HM never hip? I suppose Richard Meltzer, Lester Bangs, Chuck Eddy, Joe Carducci, Patti Smith and DJ Martian never existed.

Bangs in Almost Famous: "I'm not hip." (or words to that effect).

"Hip" of course is relative. Maybe "respectable" would be a better word.

The whole equation of metal = testosterone is trite bullshit anyway. Especially since the latest 'metal' (as opposed to 'nu-metal') revival seems to have been spearheaded by women wearing those Motorhead t-shirts.

The whole equation of metal = testosterone is trite bullshit anyway

I think Nugent and Hetfield are gonna team up to take your balls for that one, dave.

As for the women being into Motorhead, couldn't it be a sort of sexual desire for testosterone-fueled men?

I think Nugent and Hetfield are gonna team up to take your balls for that one, dave.

Hetfield would have to find his way out of rehab first.

As for hip, what of it? If you must pick a moment -- either the Manics covering "It's So Easy" in 1991 when only indie people knew who the hell the Manics were, or the absurdly ridiculous title of a psuedo- remix album that emerged, Appetite for Reconstruction.

It's just a great record. If it were just nostalgia for late 80's/early 90's metal, there are more than enuff (z'nuff) records in the bargain bins for people to fetishize. I don't think it's really a genre thing at all, GnR were always more of a rock n roll band than a metal band anyway - more Stones/Faces/Hanoi Rocks/NY Dolls than Sabbath/Maiden/Priest/Metallica. They always had crossover appeal, and hardcore metal fans thought they were too pop.

They've also got an added aura of mystery because they disappeared just as their career began to slide. Axl pulled a Howard Hughes just as Nirvana, NIN & NWA began to make him & his crew look like throw- backs (but not before a period of trying to assert themselves within the new pop dynamic). We haven't had to watch Axl age or fuck up or compromise for almost ten years now, so he has the same unimpeachable rockstar appeal as Kurt Cobain. But he's alive, so you can throw on "Appetite" in a trendy cafe and everyone will have a chuckle and remember being ten yrs younger, whereas Nirvana has a whole other set of connotations for people.

We haven't had to watch Axl age or fuck up or compromise for almost ten years now...

No, we just get these grainy pictures of a fat Axl rolling across the stage with a bunch of people that aren't Slash, Izzy, Duff, or that drummer guy that wasn't from the Cult. And myriad stories about wanting to work with Moby and other "hot" commodities. Oh - and the sorts of half-ass tabloid press that makes one think he should hire new PR people. And lest we stick our heads farther up our asses and forget that downright awful version of "Sympathy for the Devil" he hacked up for the Lestat movie.

Yeah, that Axl's unimpeachable.

It's refetishizing, without a doubt. Granted, _Appetite_ is a good album - definitely their best, by a LONG shot - but were it not for the impending doom that Axl is about to unleash on the pop music landscape, there'd be less simmering hubbabaloo about the Good Ol' Days.

What Fritz said. The pretension of Use Your Illusion (music and videos), Axl's petulance, cancelling shows because he -- what was it? -- sprained his hand and couldn't play "November Rain," the rotating band members are all well in the rear view. And, like Fritz said, "Appetite" is good dirty rock and roll not hair band buffonery. It seemed like it did take quite a bit for that record to be re-assesed in the U.S. Because of his profile and posturing, Axl was painted as the epitome of the anti-Nirvana -- or, I suppose, it should be the other way around. Hell, Cobain and Axl even had a run-in at a VMA, right?

David: I don't think most people are aware of most of what you mention - and all that's been fairly recent. I'm just saying that if all those failings that you mention had been seen on a grand scale, accompanied by non-selling records, overwrought videos etc the "hipness" of GnR would be reduced. I still think people would love "Appetite" no matter what.

on the other hand, Axl was never popular because he was a paragon of virtue and disappearing up one's own ass with the vague promise of returning to deliver the greatest album of all time didn't hurt the hipster rep of Brian Wilson, Syd Barret, Sly Stone, or Kevin Shields... well, it didn't hurt until someone heard the tapes anyway. So maybe all those tabloid reports of excess and eccentricity are actually fuelling the hipster rep. There's nothing like acting like a weirdo to make people call you a genius.

Actually, I prefer Motley Crue's 'Shout at the Devil'. More conceptual unity, cooler costuming, and primitive brain-dead thump w/ genius drummer like the Stooges, not the Aero-widdle and Scorpions- soprano like G'n'R drifted into in places.

i really miss axl's antics though - it was so cool when last year a spate of magazines came out with axl stories, and i relasied what we'd been getting via eminem and marilyn manson and fred durst was just axl rehashed...i miss the porky fucker, bring on chinese democracy is what i say.

I daresay Use Your Illusion I and II, if whittled down to a single album, might be better than Appetite.

(UYI = great title; axl = great singer, great dancer)

It would be much better. "The Spaghetti Incident" is their best album.

I liked how Axl decided to use a Mark Kostabi painting for the "UYI" album covers. Thereby proving Kostabi right (that only pretentious suckers buy his art).

how's this? according to an article in our sydney apper today, lifted from the new cobain biog, sitting next to kurt on his flight back from la, after escaping detox, and well and truly on his way to death at his own (or other's hand) was?...duff fucking mckagen.

so there are really people trading in their copies of 'if you're feeling sinister' for 'appetite for destruction'? are there people this slavish to fashion? this is how you made it sound. skid row were always more popular at my school.

Yes Keith, en masse. In fact, Murdoch's now sporting ripped PE t-shirts and do rags, and Isobel Campbell's grown a mini molester mustache.

Sheesh, don't take things so literally.

Well, I can dream.