it's official The Jam are 10 times better than The Clash

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yep...it's true

― some guy, Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:05 (nineteen years ago) link

True, although these days I'd rather hang around with Joe Strummer than Paul Weller.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:07 (nineteen years ago) link

"official"?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:08 (nineteen years ago) link

yep "official"

― some guy, Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:09 (nineteen years ago) link

Can I see some documentation and credentials, please?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:10 (nineteen years ago) link

nope

― some guy, Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:11 (nineteen years ago) link

Well, then I'm sorry, I can't accept your claim.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:12 (nineteen years ago) link

because i'm too sexy right?

― some guy, Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:13 (nineteen years ago) link

yeah my body is just too much for you to handle

― some guy, Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:16 (nineteen years ago) link

i agree, but then i was never big on the clash. except the hits. i like the hits.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:16 (nineteen years ago) link

You don't HAVE a body, headcheese, you're just a bunch of ones and zeroes.

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:17 (nineteen years ago) link

and black market clash. i like that record.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:18 (nineteen years ago) link

While it's indisputably true that "The Bitterest Pill" is a bajillion times better than "Lost in the Supermarket", in all other areas, the Clash are simply a better band. This is not to say that the Jame weren't excellent (they were), but the Clash were simply better. Better songs. Better players. Better look. Better fashion sense.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:19 (nineteen years ago) link

heh heh, The Jame.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:19 (nineteen years ago) link

well then my ones and zeroes are in a sexier font than your ones and zeroes

― some guy, Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:20 (nineteen years ago) link

Are you Nowell?

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:21 (nineteen years ago) link

The premise of this thread jibes well with the thread on the need for formailist pop music criticism.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:21 (nineteen years ago) link

― some guy, Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:22 (nineteen years ago) link

Well, I'll give you the better dressed award if you are talking about paul simonon. few were spiffier.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:22 (nineteen years ago) link

i could probably scare up a Barthes quote to explain why i like the jam better, tim.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:23 (nineteen years ago) link

B-b-b-but...the pegged pants! The overcoats! The Italian shooz!!!

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:25 (nineteen years ago) link

The Clash also seem like they'd be a helluva lot more fun to hang out with. The Jam strike me as being rather humorless.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:25 (nineteen years ago) link

i can't remember what my name was
but i posted a thread a while back about how i hated "please please me"
my name might have been dude or something like that

― some guy, Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:28 (nineteen years ago) link

The scarves!

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:29 (nineteen years ago) link

Ned, was that a cry for help?! Don't go "hang with Strummer," man! We like you around here.
That said, alhtough I like both bands, The Clash is better than The Jam in every way.

― Softly Weeping at the Oki Dog (Ben Boyer), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:29 (nineteen years ago) link

I stopped caring at "hello."

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:30 (nineteen years ago) link

I can't say I agree with this at all. All I want of the Jam is my greatest hits album and with the Clash I at least want the first two records AND a hits comp. Paul Weller is a big fuddy duddy and I'm nobody's anglophile.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:44 (nineteen years ago) link

also I really hate looking at Bruce Foxton

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:45 (nineteen years ago) link

True. Bruce Foxton is not a handsome man.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:45 (nineteen years ago) link

If I could be serious for a moment.

Points must be given to the Clash for evolving and trying new things. While the Jam had a certain sameness over about 5 albums (although that sameness was great).

On the other hand, maybe that sameness was a virtue, while the Clash's experimentation was sometimes ill-concieved or ill-executed.

― supercub, Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:48 (nineteen years ago) link

No way, the jam totally evolved. they were hippies by the end of it.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:49 (nineteen years ago) link

I mean, listen to In The City then listen to Sound Effects then listen to Setting Sons then listen to The Gift.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Go ahead, I dare you.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Sound Effects came after Setting Sons. [/nerd alert]

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:51 (nineteen years ago) link

i was typing fast. nerd. are you listening to bright eyes RIGHT NOW?

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:57 (nineteen years ago) link

I wish! Instead I've got "Town Called Malice" stuck in my head. Arrrgh.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:59 (nineteen years ago) link

On the face of it, the leap from "Clash City Rockers" to "Death Is a Star" doesn't seem very different from the leap from "In the City" to "Bitterest Pill." But the ringer is Sandinista!, which I like about 85% of and admire 100% of. Advantage Clash.

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 9 September 2004 23:59 (nineteen years ago) link

the clash are definitely classier in that rock and roll hall of fame iconic elvis presley kinda way.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 10 September 2004 00:04 (nineteen years ago) link

ihttp://www.precisionbodyarts.com/Website/portfolio/kbgnewbig/clash.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 10 September 2004 00:08 (nineteen years ago) link

I agree the Jam did evolve.

― supercub, Friday, 10 September 2004 00:27 (nineteen years ago) link

Ned, was that a cry for help?! Don't go "hang with Strummer," man! We like you around here.

*coughs* I believe the point of my joke has been missed in that Joe Strummer dead is more interesting than...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 10 September 2004 02:32 (nineteen years ago) link

Song for song the Jam can probably destroy most of the Clash's hits, but I've listened to their first three albums and a few songs off "Setting Sons" and I don't like any of their albums as much as London calling. I'll give them this though: most of the Jam songs I like are pretty epic in content or delivery, and the Clash seem like they're always trying to be epic and rarely pull it off, at least on the first record.

― Slim Pickens (Slim Pickens), Friday, 10 September 2004 02:39 (nineteen years ago) link

the jam did some nice tunes, but overall, a lame attempt at being mods or whatever that was. i remember liking "town called malice" and there was one about an english rose that was pretty. the clash were far better. epic, i guess the clash went for that but the first clash album is just basic rock and roll. "groovy times" is more "'60s" poignant and so forth than what the jam did and i sense something real there as opposed to the formalism of the jam. i mean it's like saying the flamin groovies were better than big star, one's just a revival band and the the other really meant what they said. and in my constant pursuit of the good obvious thing--i'm always behind the curve on such appreciation--"train in vain" and "rock the casbah" and "should i stay or" are all just great songs and as close as i wanna get to springsteen-ism in my brief lifetime.

― eddie hurt (ddduncan), Friday, 10 September 2004 02:44 (nineteen years ago) link

as close as i wanna get to springsteen-ism in my brief lifetime.

Jesus Christ that is so fuckin' OTM it hurts.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 10 September 2004 02:47 (nineteen years ago) link

the jam liked soul music. the clash were soul music.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 10 September 2004 03:41 (nineteen years ago) link

and i liked 'em both quite a bit. but the clash by a country mile.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 10 September 2004 03:42 (nineteen years ago) link

Eddie, I don't really see how the Jam, musically, were "formalists." They might have dressed like the Small Faces, but they didn't sound like them.

You're making an authenticity argument that I don't buy. The Jam were less real because they were mods? People have actually criticized the Clash for being bandwagon jumpers with punk, BTW.

Anyway, the appeal of a "real" band versus a stylized band is always relative. Right now, honestly, I'd much rather listen to the Flamin' Groovies doing a Beatles style song than something by Big Star.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 10 September 2004 04:54 (nineteen years ago) link

'Real' v Stylized? Oh for goodness sake.

Clash/Jam/Groovies/Big Star/VIRTUALLY EVERY BAND = as stylised/real as each other/as much as you want them to be. But it's irrelevant.

Ist Clash album and Ist Jam album are equally rock and roll/equally stylized. Both great.

Why is it that Americans always perceive some kind of *truth* in The Clash and miss it in The Jam?

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 10 September 2004 06:20 (nineteen years ago) link

I think the Jam were simply too British, Doctor.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 10 September 2004 06:26 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.precisionbodyarts.com/Website/portfolio/kbgnewbig/clash.jpg

that is some tacky, ugly shit.

whoever started this thread OTM.

― el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Friday, 10 September 2004 06:37 (nineteen years ago) link

Skipping 7 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I don't know what's wrong with me today, I'm just a big hornball, because I was about to start going off on how I used to have a massive crush on Mick Jones when I was about 14, but, erm, that's got nothing to do with anything.

But then again, The Jam have the 7B/Sophies game in their favour.

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 10 September 2004 11:23 (nineteen years ago) link

Damned > Buzzcocks > Clash > Jam

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 10 September 2004 11:27 (nineteen years ago) link

Buzzocks>Jam>>Clash>>>>>>>>Damned!

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:24 (nineteen years ago) link

No.

Buzzcocks > Clash > The Damned > being hurt with sharp objects > Jam

― edward o (edwardo), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:25 (nineteen years ago) link

Dr. C made me cry.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:28 (nineteen years ago) link

magazine>buzzcocks>slits>stranglers>damned>ruts>x ray spex>>>>>>>>>>>>>>eater>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clash

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:36 (nineteen years ago) link

>jam

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:36 (nineteen years ago) link

;)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:37 (nineteen years ago) link

No no no no.

Damned > Magazine > Buzzcocks > Clash > Slits > Ruts > X-Ray >> Jam >>>> Stranglers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eater

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:42 (nineteen years ago) link

Fuck No!

XRay Spex> Magazine>B'Cocks>Jam>Slits>Eater>Clash>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Stranglers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Damned

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:46 (nineteen years ago) link

Are you three auditioning for the new series of Grumpy Old Men or what? ;-)

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:46 (nineteen years ago) link

hawkwind>spacemen 3>loop

;-)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:48 (nineteen years ago) link

J-Joo-i-i--n u-s-ss-ss-ss (arm falls off)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:48 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm not playing this game!

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:49 (nineteen years ago) link

(Besides, it's Spacemen 3 > Loop > Hawkwind there, granddad!)

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:50 (nineteen years ago) link

I'd love to be on it!

Actually this ranking thing is silly. I refuse to accept that X-Ray Spex, Magazine and The Buzzcocks are anything less than perfect. The Jam were absoluetly great, but many faults. The Slits were great, but could have been greater. Eater are the only punk band ever really(copyright. M Sinker, but I think we should add The Desperate Bicycles and The Adverts). The Strangers were good, but very silly. And apart from a couple of singles the Damned were rub.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:51 (nineteen years ago) link

Shite, I forgot the adverts.

Van der graaf generator>magazine>popol vuh...oh, fuck it.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:52 (nineteen years ago) link

b-but machine gun etiquette! The black album!! Strawberries!! "burglary is the life for meee!!" etc etc etc

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:54 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes, but what about Hawkwind vs. the Clash. Who wins there?

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:54 (nineteen years ago) link

HAWKWIND FFS!!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 10 September 2004 12:55 (nineteen years ago) link

Argh, what an awful question I have posed myself...

See, if it came down to how many records do I own of each, I own every studio Clash record except Give Em Enough Rope, while I only own one and a half Hawkwind records (couldn't fit all of Space Ritual on the tape.)

But if you are going to talk about the evil perfidious INFLUENCE, then almost every other record I own has probably been influenced by Hawkwind but I cannot think of a SINGLE decent band inspired by the Clash.

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:03 (nineteen years ago) link

Neither can I.

Yes, OK Norm - Machine Gun Etiquette is great, I agree. They're still rubbish overall.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:08 (nineteen years ago) link

Except maybe Fat Les.

― Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:10 (nineteen years ago) link

"Actually this ranking thing is silly...."

Extremely silly.

How do you do it? If you were to rank those bands according to which released the best individual album or which released the best individual single or which wrote / recorded the best individual song everey one of us would probably end up with something different every time - how can you possibly hope to compare e.g. The Slits 2 albums, 3 Peel sessions and a handful of singles with The Damned's 28 year career?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:12 (nineteen years ago) link

With the possible exception of The Stranglers (I haven't heard all of their albums) none of the others have ever released anything as dire as I'm Alright Jack & The Beanstalk / Not Of The Earth by The Damned.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:14 (nineteen years ago) link

I would just rank them on order of what they mean to me, ie, ho happy i feel at the thought of listening to them. I like the Damned shitloads, but the thought of listening to the slits' john peel sessions cd ep makes me happier!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:15 (nineteen years ago) link

"I would just rank them on order of what they mean to me, ie, ho happy i feel at the thought of listening to them."

That's what I do - hence The Damned on top every time. Partly because I just can't understate the extent to which New Rose changed my entire life; and partly because none of those other bands have ever been able to put on a live performance that can hold a candle to The Damned when they're on form and at their peak.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:25 (nineteen years ago) link

understate s/be overstate, obv.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:26 (nineteen years ago) link

Subway Sect better than all of them except XRAY Spex.

**How do you do it? If you were to rank those bands according to which released the best individual album or which released the best individual single or which wrote / recorded the best individual song everey one of us would probably end up with something different every time - how can you possibly hope to compare e.g. The Slits 2 albums, 3 Peel sessions and a handful of singles with The Damned's 28 year career? **

Pretty much what Norman says - a highly subjective view of how much I love them TODAY.- how *happy* is good. Quantity of recds are not important. Stuff like record covers, a little *thing* the singer did with his hands on TOTP, what they were wearing etc etc are all HIGHLY IMPORTANT!!

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:26 (nineteen years ago) link

Boy, am I glad I went to bed before this thing turned really ugly.

The next person to speak ill of the Stranglers gets their trousers set on fire.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:33 (nineteen years ago) link

I forgot the banshees in this silly ranking thing. the banshees = joint nr1 with magazine.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:34 (nineteen years ago) link

Who's spoken ill of the 'Glers (as I think you call them), Alex?

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:40 (nineteen years ago) link

Well, I take this :

>>>>>>>>>>>

...to mean "is really greater than." And by saying Eater (:::teeth gritting:::::) is greater than the Stranglers is to truly disrespect the Stranglers.

But don't mind me, I'm just sensitive.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:44 (nineteen years ago) link

Best not to mention where Killing Joke would fit into that order right now methinks Doc.

[runs away]

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:47 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes, but I didn't say that anyone on the list was CRAP apart from a lot of the Damned stuff.

Eater are greater than the Stranglers in a *pure-punk sense* because they exemplified the punk spirit of getting up and doing it. The Stranglers made better records.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 10 September 2004 13:58 (nineteen years ago) link

Fair enough, Doctor. Well-reasoned, and I will not committ arson on your pants.

Killing Joke have no place in this debate, Stew.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:02 (nineteen years ago) link

**and I will not committ arson on your pants**

Cheers. That might spoil my weekend. I'll be needing my pants.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:16 (nineteen years ago) link

Now what's all this about speaking ill about the Damned?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:42 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes, hataz plz listen to "Stranger on the Town" right now.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:05 (nineteen years ago) link

The Jam made a few classic punk novelty singles: "In the city there's a fahsand fings . ." but never an album I could stand to listen to all the way through. The first Clash album is a brilliant act of savagery that has never been equalled.

And someone's dissing the Damned? I'd take them over Paul Weller's 'Rock of the Seventies' Roadshow any night of the week.

― Soukesian, Friday, 10 September 2004 21:33 (nineteen years ago) link

OTM.

(damn, seems like i've been "OTMing" all day")

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 10 September 2004 21:41 (nineteen years ago) link

punk novelty singles

You're thinking of Spizzenergi, not the Jam.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 10 September 2004 23:26 (nineteen years ago) link

No, "Where's Captain Kirk?" aces anything Paul Weller ever recorded. Franz Ferdinand should cover it.

― Soukesian, Friday, 10 September 2004 23:33 (nineteen years ago) link

really almost any good punk record could also be described as a novelty single, couldn't it?

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Saturday, 11 September 2004 00:27 (nineteen years ago) link

one year passes...

Can't wait til this place has the Blur versus Oasis argument in 2015 ...

― Graham N., Saturday, 13 May 2006 20:25 (seventeen years ago) link

I still think the jam are better.

― Christopher Costello (CGC), Saturday, 13 May 2006 20:37 (seventeen years ago) link

nine years pass...

Can't wait til this place has the Blur versus Oasis argument in 2015 ...
― Graham N., Saturday, May 13, 2006 4:25 PM (9 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Let's do this...

― J. Sam, Monday, 6 July 2015 01:58 (eight years ago) link

Let's not.

― You’re being too simplistic and you’re insulting my poor heart (Turrican), Monday, 6 July 2015 05:00 (eight years ago) link

I guess The Clash have always been the "critics choice" of the two bands, but personally I prefer The Jam.

― You’re being too simplistic and you’re insulting my poor heart (Turrican), Monday, 6 July 2015 05:03 (eight years ago) link

The received wisdom used to be that the Sex Pistols were manufactured / put together, and that The Clash were the real deal.

The more you read about their respective histories, the more you find that its almost the exact opposite.

And, of course, that it doesn't matter in the great scheme of things.

― Mark G, Monday, 6 July 2015 06:45 (eight years ago) link

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