In the song "New York, New York", is Frank Sinatra saying "New York (City), New York (City)" or "New York (City), New York (State)"?

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I always thought he was saying "New York (City), New York (City)" but then yesterday I rather suddenly realized that he could be saying "New York (City), New York (State)". After a sleepless night, I had to ask.

― his face was burned off in a flaming crossbow accident (King Kobra), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:06 (nineteen years ago) link

I've been wondering about this as well.

― OleM (OleM), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:10 (nineteen years ago) link

the city so nice they (the masons) named it twice!

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:11 (nineteen years ago) link

Well that's quite a question. I never gave it any thought at all. I'm going to guess city/state.

xpost

― Bimble... (Bimble...), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:11 (nineteen years ago) link

I've always assumed the latter, because that's usually what people mean when they say "New York, New York."

BTW: I only recently learned that "New York, New York" implies "Manhattan" whereas "New York City" refers to all five boroughs. (New Yorkers can take issue with this, but it's in the stylebook at my job.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:11 (nineteen years ago) link

In the same way you say "Boston, Mass," you say "New York, New York". I always assumed he was merely being thorough (to avoid confusion with, say, New York, Texas)

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:12 (nineteen years ago) link

I thought it was to aid old deafish people.

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:15 (nineteen years ago) link

it's a tribute to reputed mob figure jimmy two times, frank never forgot his roots

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:15 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm-a go get the papers, get the papers.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:18 (nineteen years ago) link

All of a sudden the words "New York" are looking very strange.

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:19 (nineteen years ago) link

I thought it was to aid old deafish people.

hahahaha

― Bimble... (Bimble...), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:22 (nineteen years ago) link

"i wanna wake up in the CITY that never sleeps"

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:28 (nineteen years ago) link

when someone mails something to manhattan they address it "new york, new york."

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:29 (nineteen years ago) link

Is this necessary, though? Are there street names in Manhattan that are the same as different streets in Brooklyn?

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:31 (nineteen years ago) link

yes.

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:34 (nineteen years ago) link

Ah, well, that makes sense then.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:35 (nineteen years ago) link

but everything's sorted by zip code anyway.

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:37 (nineteen years ago) link

I don't understand. Why don't they address is Manhattan, New York. How is Manhattan more New York than Brooklyn?

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:39 (nineteen years ago) link

"address it" I mean.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:39 (nineteen years ago) link

I don't understand. Why don't they address is Manhattan, New York. How is Manhattan more New York than Brooklyn?

it's probably a very old system from back when brooklyn was considered a separate city.

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:42 (nineteen years ago) link

also, mail to queens is addressed by neighborhood, not borough. so you'd send something to "astoria, ny" instead of "queens, ny."

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:43 (nineteen years ago) link

I see!

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:44 (nineteen years ago) link

"Queens is not New York"

― jed_ (jed), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:46 (nineteen years ago) link

queens is its own county, just as manhattan is "new york county." otoh, people don't address mail to kings county (brooklyn) or richmond county (staten island).

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:51 (nineteen years ago) link

I don't think I'm going to address mail to anyone in New York (City) now. It's too fraught with danger.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:53 (nineteen years ago) link

I have sent letters to Brooklyn that I addressed "New York, New York" but I knew that I was being cheeky and probably stupid.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:56 (nineteen years ago) link

Would 'Brooklyn, New York City, New York" be acceptable?

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 14 February 2005 17:59 (nineteen years ago) link

queens wasn't part of new york city until 1898 -- it used to be part of long island, and included towns that are now part of nassau county (which was established in 1899).

― stockholm cindy's fact checking childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Would 'Brooklyn, New York City, New York" be acceptable?

possibly, but it's just more to write, innit?

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:01 (nineteen years ago) link

"The Dumpster nearest the Fire Hydrant, New York"

― Bimble... (Bimble...), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:04 (nineteen years ago) link

Scorsese's "NY, NY" (origin of the song) now on DVD. Certainly, save for perhaps "Kundun," trumps anything he's churned out in the last decade.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:06 (nineteen years ago) link

more trivia:

Despite common wisdom, Nieuw Amsterdam was not the first municipality in what is now New York State. In fact, Nieuw Amsterdam was not even the second.

In 1646, the Village of Breuckelen was authorized by the Dutch West India Company and became the first municipality in what is now New York State. In 1652, the Village of Fort Orange, predecessor to the City of Albany, received similar municipal privileges. It was only in 1653 that the City of Nieuw Amsterdam was granted its charter.

"At first the Dutch rulers of New Netherland did not draw a sharp line between their overall colonial or provincial government and that of their major settlement, which was called Nieuw Amsterdam. It was not until 1646 that the Dutch West India Company granted what appears to have been certain municipal privileges to the "Village of Breuckelen"--lineal ancestor of the present-day Brooklyn--located across the East River from Nieuw Amsterdam. Fort Orange, which later became the City of Albany, obtained similar municipal privileges in 1662. When in 1653 the "Merchants and Elders of the Community of Nieuw Amsterdam" won the right to establish what was called "a city government", the municipality which became New York City was born."

In 1683, almost 20 years after the English kicked out the Dutch (1664), the General Assembly of Freeholders reorganized the governmental structure in all of the province of New York into 12 counties, each of which was subdivided into towns.

Brooklyn was one of the original six towns of Kings County, an original county when the county/town system was established in 1683.

(Other local area original counties were New York, Richmond, Queens, Westchester and Suffolk. The Bronx was part of Westchester County until 1873, when the western Bronx was annexed by New York City/County, and 1895, when the eastern Bronx was annexed as well.

The eastern two-thirds of Queens County seceded and became Nassau County in 1899, making Nassau the youngest county in New York State, although the Bronx "paper" county was established in 1914 when the Bronx "seceded" from New York County.)

Following is some additional information about important dates for all the cities, towns and villages that were part of the history of what we now refer to as "Brooklyn".

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:08 (nineteen years ago) link

He's saying New York (City), New York (State), I'm sure of it.

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:08 (nineteen years ago) link

Village of Breuckelen (1646) preceded City of Nieuw Amsterdam (1653) by some 7 years.
Brooklyn/Kings County has 2 names because it took some 200 years for Brooklyn to annex the other parts of Kings County.
When the City of Brooklyn annexed the City of Williamsburgh and the Town of Bushwick, this area was then known as the eastern district of the City of Brooklyn and Williamsburgh lost its final "h". The streets in Brooklyn do not line up because each of the 2 cities and 6 towns in Kings County were independent municipalities and purposely decided to create street grids with different naming systems that did not line up with the adjoining city or town. The Town of Gravesend was the only town where the streets run long north-to-south, all other cities and towns ran their streets long west-to-east. Gravesend was the only English town, all the others were Dutch.
South Brooklyn is north of southern Brooklyn because until 1894 the Red Hook area (South Brooklyn) was the southernmost part of the City of Brooklyn.

Bay Ridge was originally called "Yellow Hook" until a yellow fever epidemic struck and the name was changed.

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:11 (nineteen years ago) link

He's saying New York (City), New York (State), I'm sure of it.

So does this mean it's not so good they named it twice after all?

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:13 (nineteen years ago) link

it used to blow my mind when i was a kid in the beginning of welcome back kotter when they'd show that 'brooklyn, fourth biggest city in the us' (or whatever it said). i remember thinking 'and that's just some neighborhood in new york!'

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:17 (nineteen years ago) link

It's still bigger than Atlanta, Boston, San Francisco, and Cincinnatti combined

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:19 (nineteen years ago) link

and that's just some neighborhood in new york!

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:21 (nineteen years ago) link

it used to blow my mind when i was a kid in the beginning of welcome back kotter when they'd show that 'brooklyn, fourth biggest city in the us' (or whatever it said).

that made me so proud!

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:21 (nineteen years ago) link

to be fair to atlanta almost none of atlanta is part of atlanta and if the gop has their way (and they're on a hot streak) it'll be smaller and smaller still!

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:23 (nineteen years ago) link

he must be repeating it for artistic value. it would be very disillusioning to me to find out that he was simply repecting formalia. the guy was connected, ferchrissakes! those guys don't try to please pedantic postal officers.

― Jay-Kid (Jay-Kid), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:31 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm with Jay. I can't see Frank giving a fuck about the US Mail.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:33 (nineteen years ago) link

he was from hoboken? why would he give a fuck about new york anyway?

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:34 (nineteen years ago) link

It's still bigger than Atlanta, Boston, San Francisco, and Cincinnatti combined

if manhattan = "new york, new york," then brooklyn is bigger than "new york, new york." so there!

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:34 (nineteen years ago) link

"?" = "!"

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:34 (nineteen years ago) link

if manhattan = "new york, new york," then brooklyn is bigger than "new york, new york." so there!

not populationwise.

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:35 (nineteen years ago) link

um, brooklyn is WAY bigger than manhattan population-wise. as is queens.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:35 (nineteen years ago) link

did you know that - supposedly - more telephone lines go out from manhattan than from the entire continent of africa altogether? i don't know whether this includes cellphones, but it was something i read in a travel book the last time i was there (2002).

― Jay-Kid (Jay-Kid), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:37 (nineteen years ago) link

i love this thread. not read it.

― Alienus Quam Reproba (blueski), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:38 (nineteen years ago) link

um, brooklyn is WAY bigger than manhattan population-wise. as is queens.
-- fact checking cuz (factcheckingcu...), February 14th, 2005.

now this is something you don't want to discuss with a guy with that name.

― Jay-Kid (Jay-Kid), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:38 (nineteen years ago) link

from the 2000 census:

brooklyn 2.5 million
queens 2.2 million
manhattan 1.5 million
bronx 1.3 million
staten island 444,000

and the other four are all growing faster than manhattan, which means manhattan, currently in third place in its own city, is quickly headed for fourth.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:39 (nineteen years ago) link

So, is it true that the name the Bronx comes from the fact that most of the Bronx used to be owned by a family named Bronck, so it was called the Bronck's land and then shortened to the Bronx?

― Magic City (ano ano), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:41 (nineteen years ago) link

there was a population spike in manhattan in 2003: 1,537,195 -> 1,564,798.

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:41 (nineteen years ago) link

that'll be canceled out when the jets build that horrible stadium and scare everyone away.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:43 (nineteen years ago) link

Wait, there's life east of the I-5?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:44 (nineteen years ago) link

also, where shoud any extra people live? in the park? tents?

― Jay-Kid (Jay-Kid), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:44 (nineteen years ago) link

So, is it true that the name the Bronx comes from the fact that most of the Bronx used to be owned by a family named Bronck, so it was called the Bronck's land and then shortened to the Bronx?

Bronck was a Swedish immigrant who settled in (what's now) the Bronx in 1641. His farm was 500 acres.

The area of Throgs Neck is said to be named after a landowner named Throckmorton, and similarly bastardized (from "Throckmorton's Neck").

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:45 (nineteen years ago) link

should

― Jay-Kid (Jay-Kid), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:45 (nineteen years ago) link

I think during weekdays Manhattan actually has more people in it, but it empties out at night. Where should we count people, when they're at work or home in their beds?

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:48 (nineteen years ago) link

Manhattan has the highest population density in the country though.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:49 (nineteen years ago) link

Where they're drunk at midnight, Tracer.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:49 (nineteen years ago) link

tracer, i think the census officially counts people by asking them where they get their pizza slices.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:50 (nineteen years ago) link

DAMN RIGHT

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:56 (nineteen years ago) link

Wait, there's life east of the I-5?

According to Kim Wilde, there's nothing but.

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 14 February 2005 18:59 (nineteen years ago) link

Liza is still around, and she sang it first. Ask!

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 14 February 2005 19:22 (nineteen years ago) link

i like the way "neck" is used in naming places ("great neck" is still the funniest place-name ever)

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 14 February 2005 22:34 (nineteen years ago) link

I have always assumed that Frank is singing (City), (City). It's in the intonation. Same way I know that Ja Rule is singing (City), (State). Which I suspect is the reason the question arose, yes?

Anyway, it's all about the Bernstein-Comden-Green "New York, New York," not the Kander & Ebb.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 14 February 2005 23:01 (nineteen years ago) link

It's up to you, Schenectady!

― briania (briania), Monday, 14 February 2005 23:11 (nineteen years ago) link

it's a helluva town.

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 February 2005 23:33 (nineteen years ago) link

I have always assumed that Frank is singing (City), (City). It's in the intonation. Same way I know that Ja Rule is singing (City), (State). Which I suspect is the reason the question arose, yes?

No.

― his face was burned off in a flaming crossbow accident (King Kobra), Monday, 14 February 2005 23:34 (nineteen years ago) link

maybe "new york, new york" is actually shorthand for "new york (football giants, who play in new jersey), new york (football jets, who also play in new jersey)," and frank is actually singing it as a bitter and sarcastic new jerseyan.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 14 February 2005 23:38 (nineteen years ago) link

I always thought the double meaning was intended.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 14 February 2005 23:43 (nineteen years ago) link

I always thought the double meaning was intended.

Communist.

― his face was burned off in a flaming crossbow accident (King Kobra), Tuesday, 15 February 2005 00:34 (nineteen years ago) link

If the Bronx is up and the Battery's down, then I assume the first new york mentioned is wherever falls between those two places. I'm assuming thats Manhattan. Having never been to NYC or the USA I could be talking out my arse, but I've always assumed the songs title was a little joke at the repetition of the city name and state.

― kate/papa november (papa november), Tuesday, 15 February 2005 02:17 (nineteen years ago) link

"I have always assumed that Frank is singing (City), (City). It's in the intonation. Same way I know that Ja Rule is singing (City), (State)."

funny, I assumed the opposite.

― Al (sitcom), Tuesday, 15 February 2005 02:34 (nineteen years ago) link

If the Bronx is up and the Battery's down, then I assume the first new york mentioned is wherever falls between those two places. I'm assuming thats Manhattan.

presumably "the battery" means battery park, which is the farthest downtown you can go in manhattan. the bronx begins at the uptown end -- running parallel to harlem, inwood, etc, and extending farther north up towards westchester.

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 15 February 2005 02:40 (nineteen years ago) link

I don't understand. Why don't they address is Manhattan, New York. How is Manhattan more New York than Brooklyn?
-- Alba (albab...), February 14th, 2005 9:39 AM.

If someone offered me an all-expenses paid trip to "New York", and I found I *couldn't* go to Manhatten, I'd be pretty cheesed.

― Sasha (sgh), Tuesday, 15 February 2005 05:40 (nineteen years ago) link

It sounds bad enough the first time he sings it ...

― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 15 February 2005 06:42 (nineteen years ago) link

If someone offered me an all-expenses paid trip to "New York", and I found I *couldn't* go to Manhatten, I'd be pretty cheesed.

manhattan's not all that great.

― stockholm cindy's secret childhood (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 15 February 2005 13:32 (nineteen years ago) link

Forget 'Big Apple,' N.Y. wants a new slogan: City seeks to trademark 'The World's Second Home'

― stockholm cindy's secret world with martin bashir (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 17 February 2005 13:49 (nineteen years ago) link

i don't want a new slogan, i don't want the fucking olympics here, and i don't want a goddamn west side stadium!

― stockholm cindy's secret world with martin bashir (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 17 February 2005 13:51 (nineteen years ago) link

"the big apple"'s meaninglessness is exactly what makes it a great slogan! "the world's second home" is way too loaded.

― stockholm cindy's secret world with martin bashir (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 17 February 2005 13:56 (nineteen years ago) link

and boring.

― Jay-Kid (Jay-Kid), Thursday, 17 February 2005 20:42 (nineteen years ago) link

ten years pass...

BTW: I only recently learned that "New York, New York" implies "Manhattan" whereas "New York City" refers to all five boroughs. (New Yorkers can take issue with this, but it's in the stylebook at my job.)
― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, February 14, 2005 11:11 AM (10 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Aw, I was so much younger then.

― jaymc, Thursday, 16 April 2015 05:15 (nine years ago) link

one year passes...

http://www.npr.org/2015/11/25/457289950/broadway-composer-john-kander-reflects-on-a-career-of-hidden-treasures

has a big clip from the rejected theme song. clearly about manhattan.

― Einstein, Kazanga, Sitar (abanana), Saturday, 28 January 2017 10:00 (seven years ago) link

Re: thread 1, seems obvious to me that he's borrowing the familiar City, State formula, but giving emphasis to to it in a way that turns it, emotionally, into City, CITY!!!! I mean no way on that awesome last declaration is he thinking about NYC's situaton within the larger state economy or upstate getaway optiions or w/e.

― stein beck ii: the wrath of grapes (Doctor Casino), Saturday, 28 January 2017 17:27 (seven years ago) link

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