TS: Miles Davis's Agharta or Pangaea

You're right about "Zimbabwe" being a total head-on assault, and I have a lot of affection for Pangaea because I actually heard it before Agharta, but I think its two-long-tracks structure and its overall jammyness force me to rank it second. The outrageously funk-metal structuredness of Agharta make it the winner, for me.

yeah, when the hell are these going to be reissued/remastered? i don't even own Agharta, because whenever I see it in the store, I think "the minute i buy this, they're going to announce reissues." i have Pangaea on tape! it is a rad album for driving.

Expect that when they do get around to it, Sony'll re-release 'em both as part of a single 3-or-4-or-more box.

There were rumors a couple of years ago about a massive 70s live box; haven't heard anything in a while, though.

yeah, i feel like i heard that rumor of a multi-disc live 70s set ... are there more recordings of the Japanese tour? I'd buy that box set.

From what I recall, there's insane amount of unreleased stuff. Unfortunately, don't know anything more specific than that. I almost bought that Montreux box for the lone 70s disc, but just couldn't do it.

i've heard a few bootleg-y type things featuring the agharta band (or at least a close approximation). it's good stuff, but the Japanese shows have this sort MONUMENTAL sound to them, that doesn't come across on the bootlegs. Pangaea and Agharta are well-named, because they sound like continents slamming into one another ...

i don't even own Agharta, because whenever I see it in the store

you see agharta in the store??

nobody carries it around here and it's never in the used bin it's nuts

yeah, it's right down the street at the virgin megastore. $19.99 ...

i listened to agharta for the first time the other day. i think my memory of pangaea (last heard ~ 5 years ago) was eclipsed by dark magus ( ~ 2 year) — i was surprised by the presence of JAZZ FLUTE type moments on agharta, partic. when actually STATING THEMES — it was all surprisingly comprehensible, although that might have just been the weird clarity of that morning's hangover. the descriptions of the second disc of pangaea on this and the other thread totally are making me want to i) hear and ii) prefer that, though

yeah, i think compared to some of the earlier live recordings, Pangaea in particular comes across as more deliberate, more composed. I came to it expecting it to be totally nuts (and sometimes it is, sure), but it's also pretty gorgeous.

I thought HOOS was making a joke about Agharta (which I assume is a place like Pangaea.)

blurgh: http://bigozine2.com/roio/?p=131

Pangea is my all-time favorite soundtrack for cooking a big meal, so I'll say that. I've owned it longer and listened to it more.

I've been back on a big electric Miles kick and I never noticed on the track "Prelude" on the second disc of Agharta that Mike Henderson goes into the bass line for "So What" for a minute or so. I've heard the record probabaly 25 times over the year and it was the first time it caught me.

RIP Pete Cosey. Unbelievable guitar player.

:(

Did they ever get around to releasing these stateside?

agharta and pangaea? yeah they're available. i remember rumors of a box set of this band being planned, but haven't heard anything more.

Yeah sorry but the versions available are the lousy sounding 1990 releases. They've never released the remastered versions here (only in Japan, I believe.)

I downloaded Agharta last June and was my pinch album at work whenever I forgot to to bring a CD.

RIP Pete Cosey

xp yeahhh, the japanese mastersound versions are supposed to be better, mentioned above.

tons of rad live shows from the cosey era here btw: http://darkfunk.com/latest_shows/

4 men with beards reissued both on vinyl recently and they sound like motherfuckers

Whoa really? I had no idea 4 Men reissued those

Good Cosey article from 2007 here

Oh man I found a copy of the Pangaea on vinyl this wknd, funny, in all my yrs digging electric Miles records I've never even seen Pangaea on vinyl then blam I come across two an org & the new reissue and the orginial at least sounds light-years better then the cd vers. Light years.

Still not heard Pangaea, I don't think. Unless my memory is failing me once more. Agharta is amaaaaaaazing, though.

I prefer Pangaea myself, by a tiny margin.

i've listened to pangaea a lot more, but mainly because i have it on tape and up until recently that was the only way i could listen to music in my car. good driving music!

I've always prefered Agharta, but I think that's largely because it's the one I have on vinyl and the CD version I have of Pangaea sounds like a turd.

I have no clue how to pick one now cuz I feel like I've never heard Pangaea exactly once, when I listened to it last night

I mean I feel like I've only heard once, not never...you know what I mean

I have an annual tradition where I try, every year around Christmas, to "get into" these records. I stubbornly expect that these albums are 'growers' and that one day their magic will be revealed. I have probably listened to these albums more than most albums I do like. Thing is, I should love these: I love Dark Magus, so I'm not averse to soupy, cauldron-of-textures mid 70s Miles; I'm a freak for Jack Johnson, In A Silent Way, On the Corner, Filles de Kilimanjaro and, of course, Bitches Brew, so I'm not some Prestige-era zealot. I don't even mind the way out stuff on Get Up With It (though "Rated X" tests my patience). But I find these these records frequently impenetrable, mostly uninteresting, and occasionally very, very dull. I don't like Al Foster's drumming (but I'm not exactly crazy about Tony Williams, either, so grain of salt there), and I think I like the idea of crazy Pete Cosey more than I like the way he plays (but, again, no complaints with Dark Magus). I bring this up now because this is Year #6 or #7 of me sitting down and really trying to dig these records; it's become a sort of fetish with me, so much so that I have a friend who texts me every once in a while and asks if Agharta / Pangaea have "clicked" yet. Nope. In fact, my favorite thing about these discs is Michael Henderson, who, I understand, is generally considered the weak link of this band for some reason.

This may be the year I finally give up. I guess I just don't like these albums? Is that possible?

And before anyone asks, the versions I have are the 1990 Columbia discs, not the Japan remasters or the 4 Men With Beards vinyl reissues.

ha, totally possible you just don't like them. that's fine.

i am fucking obsessed with Get Up With It, easily my favorite miles record, but i honestly feel the same way as you do about pangaea and agharta, though admittedly i haven't tried as hard as you - i don't know if i've even sat through the entirety of them. i enjoy dark magus.

i think the recording quality is very bad, and there are many live albums i can't get into because of the thin, muddy sound.

a few weeks ago i had on pangaea or agharta on and my wife was like "is this phish?" loooool

i think this 1973 video from a concert in vienna is rad, and it totally helps to be able to see what each person is doing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOA9_TdRFt4

sorry, meant to link rather than embed

dunno, i love the way these albums build up and break down--dark magus is the one that feels impenetrable to me (though i still really like it). just feel like the band in 75 was expert at creating these vast sonic panoramas.

i could never understand why some folks prefer the "maiysha" on agharta to the one on get up with it, makes no sense to me at all. there were a number of comments saying so on the get up with it poll thread from a few months ago

Thanks for the link, marcos! Will check that out. It may be the final frontier.

Tyler, I definitely agree with that description of Dark Magus, but I think I like that murky aspect of it - maybe, as marcos says, it's a simple matter of recording fidelity? I find it way easier to get lost in Dark Magus; every time I start to zone out to something on Pangaea, the groove is interrupted by something vibe-killing, like some fake Hendrix shit. I dunno!

about the recording quality, i don't know, these records just sound so WEAK to me. with good recording this music is like the baddest, most powerful shit ever, the music critic mark richardson wrote that "it makes other music seem small". i TOTALLY get that listening to on the corner, the complete OTC sessions, get up with it, but i hear these records (A & P) and the sound is just so thin.

Agreed. Though some swear by the Japanese remasters.

those remasters definitely sound better, but i don't know if the difference will be enough to convince y'all. agharta/pangaea sound more like back of the room recordings, whereas dark magus sounds like you're onstage. [i like the sound of both]

I never really loved these records until I got the original lps, the 1990s cd masters are the worst things in the entire world.

I ride pretty hard for all the electric era recordings.

just feel like the band in 75 was expert at creating these vast sonic panoramas.

aren't these edited out the wazoo though? i feel like teo macero should be given half the credit sometimes.

you know, i really don't think agharta and pangaea are particularly edited -- i thought they were til i heard bootlegs from the same period. there might be the argument that the band was incorporating some of macero's editing style into their overall live approach?

that would be strange!

it's hard to keep track (or for /me/ to keep track, anyhow) of which albums are edited, from what, and how....

I always thought these two albums were pretty much straight live recordings - no editing. Early show (Agharta) and late show (Pangaea)

There is no editing on these records.

those remasters definitely sound better, but i don't know if the difference will be enough to convince y'all. agharta/pangaea sound more like back of the room recordings, whereas dark magus sounds like you're onstage. [i like the sound of both]

Pretty clear the U.S. mixes in the 90s and the Japanese remasters are different mixes.

I never got into Dark Magus either, though I wanted to because the title is so bad-ads. It turned out that Agharta was the live electric Miles record I was looking for.

Bad-ass, thanks phone.

I agree with jimmy wine on Al foster...much as I enjoy these records, I'd love them more if he just kept his damn hi hat closed. Dude can sound like the inside of an airplane for chrissakes.

Still hoping for a nice complete box of those Japanese shows someday

fwiw there is a killer live show that has been on d!me before, 6/17/73 I think? pre-FM show in Japan, RIYL these albums

I'd love them more if he just kept his damn hi hat closed.

Agharta was the first Miles record I ever heard, and Foster's open-hi-hat was off-putting at first; I was expecting super-tight heavy funk, not sloshy shunk. But his approach really grew on me, and those records need the looseness and density that the open hat adds to.

The story behind the Japanese cover art is pretty interesting.

Good piece on these records' 40th (!) anniversary:
http://thequietus.com/articles/17152-miles-davis-agharta-pangaea

yeah, I still feel the same way about these albums (see upthread), but this is a very good read. thanks

Any news regarding the proper reissuing of that entire stellar period (Miles live gigs in 1974-75)? It's been well documented that he played dozens of concert in that period, and all we have is Dark Magus, Agharta and Pangaea. That's a bloody shame.

On a similar topic, does anyone know if there exists a complete recording of Tatu Part 2, that fades out on Dark Magus? Just as Miles had hit the monstrous groove and is playing some of the most menacing trumpet of his career, some smartass cutting the master decided to fade it out just so that he could fit it into an LP. Unbelievable!

The passage of time has been more than kind to Miles. Today, 40 years after those concerts were played, it gets extremely hard to grasp why have so many fans/critics been so against the divine music that Miles was making in 1974-75? It feels like a weird time warp that anyone could have been against such breathtaking beauty. Luckily, they seem to have stopped making such idiots, so today we're free to enjoy this god-like music without the annoying whining from the heathen and to demand more of it!

It is crazy that no reissue/boxed set/domestic remaster nothing has ever come forth here.

The recent *Newport* box has a set from late 1973 with the core of that lineup (Cosey, Lucas, Henderson, Foster, Mtume)...it screams, especially the version of "Turnaroundphrase" (a.k.a. "Moja" on *Dark Magus*, or "Zimbabwe" on *Pangaea*).
http://www.milesdavis.com/albums/miles-davis-at-newport-1955-1975-the-bootleg-series-vol-4/
Video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux_ZXCC86_c

The Heat Wraps just got to the shows right beforehand:

https://theheatwarps.com/2022/04/28/1-30-1975-kokura/

By the time the septet reached the southwestern end of the island a week later for a performance at the Kokura Civic Center (demolished in 2003 to make way for a city park), its raison d’être seems to have shifted dramatically. Though “Ife” remains the heady centerpiece of the night and one of the most thrilling versions on record, the vast majority of the set is wound tight, deeply funky and downright jubilant. With this the final concert before the performances recorded for the Agharta and Pangea live LPs, it’s fascinating to hear a version of the septet so different from the one documented just two days later.

This is going to be a bit Startrekman, but it must have been that EMS Synthi doing those weird whistling sounds that seem to loop around tracks on Agharta? I kinda always thought it might have been the organ through some oscillator or something, but it is going on even when Miles is playing trumpet (unless someone else was playing the synth like Cosey).

I kinda think these records are of the type you really cannot get them loud enough. It would be nice to have them blasting through some huge stage PA across some big meadow and be able to live within them.