The Carter Family

Carter Family are fantastic, I have a bunch of the Rounder collections and they are all great.

"I wandered again, to my home in the mountains, Where in youth's early dawn, I was happy and free.
I looked for my friends, but I never could find them, I found they were all, rank strangers to me.

Chorus: Everybody I met, seemed to be a rank stranger, No mother or dad, Not a friend could I see,
They knew not my name, and knew not their faces, I found they were all, rank strangers to me.

They've all moved away, said the voice of a stranger, To a beautiful home, across the dark sea.
Some beautiful day, I'll meet them in heaven, Where no one will be, a stranger to me. "

i wouldn't have a lawyer
i'll tell you the reason why
every time he opens his mouth
he tells a great big lie

chawin' chewin' gum
chewin' chawin' gum
chawin' chewin' gum
chewin' chawin' gum

i wouldn't have a doctor
i'll tell you the reason why
he rides all over the country
makes the people die

chawin' chewin' gum?

i wouldn't have a farmer
i'll tell you the reason why
because he has so plenty to eat
'specially pumpkin pie

chawin' chewin' gum?

i took my girl to church last night
how do you reckon she done
she walked right up to the preacher's face
and chewed her chewing gum

True. But the Stanleys made it a standard.

But as for the Carters, they're a pretty fascinating case. I can't think of another family with as much and as long-lasting influence on American music (that's counting Johnny Cash as part of the extended family, of course). A.P. was apparently a real weirdo, too. After Sara split, I think he kinda spent the rest of his life working that little general store (now the family museum at the Carter Fold), and mumbling to himself.

So I'm not the only one who thinks "Chewing Gum" is a punk song.

"There's No Hiding Place Down Here" is fucking terrifying, yes?

best recording artists of the first half of the 20th century

top five carters tracks as of this very moment this morning in no particular order

hello stranger
jealous hearted me
when the world's on fire (woody guthrie took the melody of this for 'this land is your land')
lulu wall
will you miss me when i'm gone

carters used to kinda bore me (they seemed too upright/episcopalian compared to other music of the time). but i've come to my senses. they rock! i mean, i'd put duke ellington ahead of them in terms of the first half of the 20th century, but the carters are probably top 5 anyway.

Anyone know of a good comp/best of on Spotify so I can dive in?

http://elderly.com/images/recordings/09/JSP7701.jpg
these are the ones i have, kind of a lot to wade through, i suppose. but great!

Any of the Rounder comps of the Complete Victor recordings are amazing. I think When the Roses Bloom in Dixieland is my favorite, but they're all great.

"There's No Hiding Place Down Here" is fucking terrifying, yes?

Yes, yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8osmxHMfRYE

Single Girl, Married Girl was one of my first favorite Carter family songs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsmgy0dqzyw

Lulu Wall also an early favorite. Excellent road trip music!!

Two great and contrasting lines about loves:

You're just the girl of my dreams, though it seems that my dreams never come true

and

You are my flower that's blooming in the mountains for me, you are my flower that's blooming there for me

Trad. - Wagoner's Lad

LL you heard the @dvance b@se cover of single girl married girl that jody sang right?

I think so? I know her voice would def be suited for singing that song!

well here it is for everyone, the band i'm currently playing in covers single girl married girl with me rocking the two-chord autoharp part

http://soundcloud.com/advance-base/single-girl-married-girl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM6RS2DMFLY

Recorded this day in 1927 at their very first session in Bristol, TN.

when the world's on fire (woody guthrie took the melody of this for 'this land is your land')

well they were all basically traditional folk songs, weren't they? and a lot of those melodies were used over and over again.

and it continues to this day thanks to a famous plagiarist -- dylan's new album draws on this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCK1oEyYNH4

The title track is a nearly 14-minute depiction of the Titanic disaster. Numerous folk and gospel songs gave accounts of the event, including the Carter Family's "The Titanic," which Dylan drew from. "I was just fooling with that one night," he says. "I liked that melody – I liked it a lot. 'Maybe I'm gonna appropriate this melody.' But where would I go with it?"

fav bit from No Direction Home:

Interview: "So Bob, are these original songs? Are you writing your own songs?"

Bob: "Well....they're all mine now"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxo-zayI6tE

idk, you tell me if that's plagiarism or not. the idea that all of the songs the carters recorded were folk songs is off base--a lot of them had folk roots but quite a number were composed by A.P. Carter.

his wiki is kinda sad, esp the part about how he left the music business to run a general store
but i will add that his picture is rather fetching
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/A.P_Carter.JPG

i'm kind of confused about the origin of the songs myself; i'm starting to wonder if maybe there's not a company line and another story entirely.

Some of the songs became so closely identified with A. P. Carter that he has been popularly, but mistakenly, credited with writing them. For example, "Keep on the Sunny Side of Life" was published in 1901 with the words being credited to Ada Blenkhorn and the music credited to Howard Entwisle,[2] and "The Meeting in the Air" has been published giving credit for music and words to I. G. Martin.[3]

i'm not saying anyone here is right or wrong, just that maybe we don't really know 100% of what really happened with the authorship of songs. you know, folklore is folklore?

you tell me if that's plagiarism or not.

well, yeah, they're close. of course. one is clearly derived from the other, but they aren't exact copies. actionable in a copyright court? probably. any different from how thousands of other folk songs have been borrowed, slightly altered and recontextualized through the years? no. and i'll side with folk tradition over copyright lawyers.

most of what i know of a.p. carter's methods i got from reading the liner notes of those great carter family cd's on rounder. it's been a while since i read them, and they and i are currently on different coasts, but my memory is that they made it pretty clear that a.p. was much more of a song collector than a songwriter. his songwriting credits, if i recall correctly, had a lot more to to with publishing and ownership than with lyrics and melodies. then again, there's no doubt he and the carters did their own altering and recontextualizing, and the results were consistently fantastic. i love love love them. and i love that dylan quote from no direction home. that's perfect.

still recommend the carter family fold, bigtime

On the plagarism issue, Mark Zwonitzer’s heartbreaking “Will You Miss Me When I’m Gone?” details how A.P. would go off and travel through the mountains, looking for songs that the Carters “appropriated” as their own. That’s just the way it’s done in the folk tradition. Pretty hard to pinpoint the origins of many of those songs.

i'm not saying, like, it's BAD that woody copied that melody, or that it's an unacceptable practice, but as far as the folk tradition goes, that is literally the only other time i've heard that melody, and i listen to a lot of 20s/30s country music. it seems to be a pretty direct source for 'this land..'

yer right that the "a.p. carter" composer credit on their records has more to do with business than actual ownership, but I wouldn't mistake the carter family for anything other than a commercial country music proposition. they made records to be sold-- for the same reason anyone else made records--for money. a.p.'s interests in folk music and song collecting may have influenced their repetoire, but the motivation for making records was not to disseminate folklore, it was to sell records.

i'm not trying to denigrate anyone here btw, like i've said i think the carters produced some of the best music of that era, or any era.

just one of my pet peeves is the idea that these early commercial country music recordings were done out of some sort of altruistic desire to preserve--it's just not true, at least until you get to the lomaxes and the other field-recordists.

Think it's a mistake to get too strict about a clear distinction between "folk tradition" and "made to be sold" - lots of "folk" over the centuries has been played for commercial gain, right? The distinction only really begins to bite later in history with the preservers and the folklorists, right?

Ian otm! That was popular music too.

(By which I mean: the eliding of "folk tradition" with "altruistic desire to preserve" happens only once you get preservers and folklorists off making records in the fields, right?)

see, tim, this is where i think my definition of "folk" becomes a lot more strict than most people. i don't consider, say, bob dylan to be a folk artist.

i think i would need pages to properly articulate (to myself even) where that line lies, between commercial and folk music and where the crossover lies. i'm inclined to say that the same piece of music can be both folk and pop, the difference being in its performance--square dance tune played at a fair for dancing: folk. same tune recorded and put onto a record: pop. but that's a very big generalization and even as i'm writing this i can think of other examples that confuse the situation.

a large chunk of early country music was itself re-worked tin pan alley pop tunes, minstrel shows, or 19th century sentimental songs.

xpost I don't disagree with you, and I certainly would like to read those pages!

I think I'm just saying that, from the point of view of those early musicians / recorders, a distinction which said country music = commercial and folk = not-for-profit do-gooders wouldn't have rung true or made any sense.

PLUS as I think about it, probably the most important source of the confusion between early commerical country and "proper" folk music was the nascent country music industry itself, which routinely marketed its styles - often new styles developed around what sounded good recorded and played back - as "old-time" and "hillbilly" and whatnot. So if it bugs you, blame AP Carter.

And Harry Smith of course, who never should have used the word "folk" on those records, the silly sausage.

a common distinction people use when talking about this era of music is whether the musicians were professionals or amateurs. most of the big names in the field -- carters, skillet lickers, john carson, charlie poole, carolina tar heels etc -- were all professional musicians. xposts

i do understand that to the audience of the time, the distinction would not have made sense -- folk music in that sense is a recent invention is it not? this is why i need to read that alan lomax book my roommate lent me, and as many other books as i can on the subject.

for years i kind of listened to this stuff in a vacuum without thinking too hard about its cultural implications beyond the very surface level -- and the more i discover and read and listen now, i find those earlier assumptions to be more and more off-base.

xpost Right, and that's why it *does* make sense to say of AP Carter "that's the way the folk tradition works" - although he stands at the threshold of a massive change in the way music was made and sold and with the long view he was pop, not folk, he was very likely just going about his business in the way he knew how, picking up tunes and playing them, selling that however he could.

I read an interesting book in this broad area some years ago called "Creating Country Music - Fabricating Authenticity".

i would read that book.

i recall from reading the carters bio that A.P's song collecting was inspired by his discovery that copywriting songs could make him money, but maybe that was a misreading of a more subtle point the author was trying to make. it's been a few years. great book though -- http://www.amazon.com/Carter-Family-Their-Legacy-American/dp/074324382X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343920729&sr=8-1&keywords=carter+family+miss+me

anyway.. the oral transmission of tunes to a.p. is the sticking point i think. by some definitions, that is what folk music IS, more than anything else. but when the method of reproduction and the time/place of performance shifts, i'm not sure it's folk music anymore.

Oooh I'd like to read that book. Maybe it's the excuse I need to buy like 10 Carter family CDs for tuppence ha'penny as I've been thinking about doing forever.

I think we broadly agree, except I'ma bit too wearly to worry about the distinction too much! It makes me crazed that any old beardo singer-songwriter with an acoustic gets called folk these days. "These days" being since before you and I were born, obv.!

*weary* not wearly

Seems like Don't Forget This Song, the finally-on-the-verge-of-coming-out Carter Family graphic novel biography by David Lasky and Frank Young, has not been mentioned itt. Dudes have been working on this book for the better part of a decade now. What I have seen looks amazing. Lawyer for the Carter family publishing rights has apparently been a total fuckhole to these guys in every way but they got it done. It's from Abrams.

http://carterfamilycomix.blogspot.com/

wow, that looks neat! seems so weird that they'd have issues w/ publishing rights, but that's america for you. i am an idiot when it comes to a lot of this kinda thing, but wouldn't a lot of it be public domain by now?

People who get all het up about Bob Dylan "stealing" music are disgusting savages imo. He borrowed from people who borrowed from people who borrowed. I respect the need for credit and compensation but I also think rigid ideas about ownership do a disservice to music.

xpost at one point they were forbidden to quote any lyrics whatsoever. I think some of this may have been smoothed over once Abrams took the project though.

Pretty hard to pinpoint the origins of many of those songs.

"if anyone asks you who composed this song
if anyone asks you who composed this song
tell him it was i and i sing it all day long"
--the carter family (and 10 million others), "worried man blues"

Don't Forget This Song

such a fantastic book.

I saw The Winding Stream today--can't tell if it's two years old (IMDB lists it as 2014), one year old (they've got the actual release date as 2015), or brand new (no mention of it on this thread, for instance). Some amazing footage, as you might expect. There's also about five minutes' worth of a one-on-one interview with Johnny Cash that is very moving--and, in the context of the film, looks like it was shot yesterday. They get a little overly cute towards the beginning of the film in recreating the original recording sessions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-bF8lOoNjM

xpost Right, and that's why it *does* make sense to say of AP Carter "that's the way the folk tradition works" - although he stands at the threshold of a massive change in the way music was made and sold and with the long view he was pop, not folk, he was very likely just going about his business in the way he knew how, picking up tunes and playing them, selling that however he could.

I read an interesting book in this broad area some years ago called "Creating Country Music - Fabricating Authenticity".

I haven't read that but I think I remember reading a good version of virtually the same argument in Romancing the Folk: Public Memory & American Roots Music by Benjamin Filene.

As I remember it, the concept was that while today, through the graininess of their records, we perceive the Carter Family as some kind of original, authentic family group from a "tradition," they were actually already nostalgic music aimed at people who had already left their "traditional" homes for urban areas, moving from agricultural to industrial life. And mirroring this, the music was produced and distributed in an industrial and non-local way.

Franklin Bruno has written some long piece on this phenomenon as well (not the carters specifically tbf)

One thing I wish they'd included in the documentary--there was a fair bit on June getting together with Johnny Cash--was a "Jackson" clip. Such an amazing song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3NJC18Oi04&nohtml5=False

Doesn't Jerry Leiber have a writing credit on it?

Interesting recording history too.

You're right--never knew that.

Writer(s): Billy Edd Wheeler and Jerry Leiber (as Gaby Rodgers)

Did you know about his Stealer's Wheel production credit?

Billy Edd Stealer's Wheeler? Didn't know that either.

No, silly, Jerry Leiber.

Sorry, no apostrophe, just Stealers Wheel.

idly turned on this "The Winding Stream" documentary - which was fine up until the point that they started animating photos to make them look like paper cutout puppets of AP, Maybelle and Sara were singing and then I just got creeped out and turned it off. Lots of good ppl involved/interviewed though.

Just finished watching the doc. Agree that the production values aren't to my taste, but I can scarcely think of a music doc I've seen more jam-packed with information than this one.

As someone said way upthread, "ive got a crush on maybelle."

I do too now.

my Nashville Scene ballot comments on the soundtrack:
The Winding Stream: The Carters, Cashes and the Course of Country Music
I'd say John Prine phones it in, but that would imply more energy than is evident. Most of the rest of this is pretty darn good (even Kristofferson, although he hands off lines to others). These Original Carter Family selections don't reach me like other configurations of Carters, but then again there are lots more of the latter (apparently the doc, which I haven’t seen, is *mainly* about the OCF’s music as Legacy-catalyst, and how it moves on through more toe-tapping eras). Fave so far is the title song, "Do not disturb this daydream," in which "the sparkling trout" is eyed by the kingfisher, and "Someone with golden hair/Looks a lot like you."

and from 2014 ballot comments, re Carlene's album, since she doesn't get that much attention, seems like:

That there Carlene album, Carter Girl, is something I'm not totally into yet. but it certainly is better than I feared, when I heard she was going to salute the roots, with Carter Family chestnuts. I mostly know her from my ancient, scruffy-sounding twofer, Musical Shapes & Blue Nun, where she and Nick Lowe tried for Bakersfield/Beatles (and I guess Rockpile)appeal: rocking country, rather than country-rock, Also, she had a rave-up with NRBQ-to-Nashville guitarist-songwriter Al Anderson on Austin City Limits. This album, produced by Don Was, mixes old and new songs and beats in an overcast atmosphere, never anachronistic nor murky. The rhythm can be a guide, though not a cheerleader, in "Lonesome Valley 2003," where she goes to and from several funerals, and it (mainly bass) even slaps butts on "Me and the Wildwood Rose," a road song about childhood rolling with Carter ladies and little sister Rosey, later a true desperado (track record not mentioned, but the song visits her funeral). Carlene and Elizabeth Cook leave a life of crime to settle down, attended by angels and what sounds like a tumbleweed full of mechanical bulls. Elsewhere, she may lope or trot or (once) waltz through variously challenging situations, incl. those associated with outlaws, but she's always adapting, with no self-congratulation.
Hey:just give her those flowers right now, even if you think, with her own track record, you might not have long to wait for yet another send-off; and furthermore, "Kind words are no good/In a bed too narrow." Lots of family, incl. Johnny and June, sing along on the finale, "I Ain't Gonna Work Tomorrow," where she's ditched again, but on the other hand, see title; and also, "Pretty girls are dancin' on the cold, cold ground," so that helps too (far as I'm concerned).

Speaking of descendants, I also liked Carter's Chord, who had the seeming misfortune of being on the mostly self-absorbed Toby Keith's Show Dog label, with Trailer Choir and a few others.

The thing that struck me most in the doc was detailing the manner in which AP and Lesley Riddle would cris-cross Appalachia for songs to use (which he was, in turned, paid for). On the surface, that seems like a pretty low thing to do, but as Rosanne pointed out, nearly all of those songs would be lost to history now if The Carters and Victor didn't preserve them.

True, but think it was AP, or some family spokesperson, who claimed Woody Guthrie lifted tunes from them, when (at least in some cases) those tunes went way back before any of the 20th Century-performing Carters or Guthrie were born, as pointed out by Bill C. Malone and others.

Carlene Carter's Musical Shapes is the new wave/country hybrid I didn't know I'd been looking for, w o w